[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

And the poor child would have no Father?

I wonder how Zelah's relationship is with her Father?

A lot of children do not have fathers. Not sure why this is a major thing for you to comprehend.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Nah, this is clearly not the same as a standard biological birth, so that doesn't work.



I would say 'why not adopt?'

In other words, exactly the same thing.

Thousands and thousands spent on forcing a thing that could be better spent on giving an adopted child a great life.

You mean hundreds of thousands. It's $150~$250K (at least) here since it is elective. We're talking about an extreme luxury that is inaccessible to a vast majority, at least in the US. And that's not even talking about what the financial picture look likes after for parent or child. That's just to give birth.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Maru

You mean hundreds of thousands. It's $150~$250K (at least) here since it is elective. We're talking about an extreme luxury that is inaccessible to a vast majority, at least in the US. And that's not even talking about what the financial picture look likes after for parent or child. That's just to give birth.

staggering amount

[Vicky.]

Think it's about 10k a round for IVF here

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Nah, this is clearly not the same as a standard biological birth, so that doesn't work.



I would say 'why not adopt?'

In other words, exactly the same thing.

Thousands and thousands spent on forcing a thing that could be better spent on giving an adopted child a great life.

In fairness, don't they make it really hard for people to adopt kids nowadays?

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

In fairness, don't they make it really hard for people to adopt kids nowadays?

I mean, so it should be I guess, but if you are stable, are physically and mentally up to the job, and don't have criminal convictions it is a very viable option.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by vesavius

It's a lot of faffing and fiddling to try and find a way around biological nature, but in the end I guess as long as the home is stable and loving it's fine. By the time the kid is old enough to understand we will probably be pumping out babies from Chinese birthing robots anyhow so it'll seem relatively normal.

If I was in their situation though I would just adopt.

Loads of kids out there need loving homes so spending all that money on this process just to produce one against everything seems selfish and a bit weird, tbh.

Maybe straight people could stop having children and giving them away. Seems selfish expecting someone else to look after their children.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I mean, so it should be I guess, but if you are stable, are physically and mentally up to the job, and don't have criminal convictions it is a very viable option.

From what I've heard I think that they could lower the requirements slightly.

I mean after all, a kid in this situation is not going to care that one of their parents might be a smoker or slightly overweight, as I have heard some people say that they look for things like that to stop perfectly good people from adopting.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Maybe straight people could stop having children and giving them away. Seems selfish expecting someone else to look after their children.

It's a fair point.

Although there are circumstances where I can understand why the parents might've given the child up for adoption.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Think it's about 10k a round for IVF here

IVF is way cheaper and fertility treatments are usually decently covered. Surrogacy, it's hard to say (with the coverage) because it's not a "fertility treatment". Two people are involved so both would require different insurance methods to cover the different aspects of the procedures... that's if the insurances don't have some kind of exclusion for what they're doing.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

It's a fair point.

Although there are circumstances where I can understand why the parents might've given the child up for adoption.

Yes there will be circumstances where someone's child is taken off them due to extenuating circumstances, such as poor mental health or addiction. But there's also many times when it's simply through poor choice.

What's being said is... straight people who have no fertility issues can keep on having babies without ever being labelled selfish for doing so...

...and it's the job of people who can't have babies biologically without medical help - ie: gay people, trans people and people with fertility issues - to adopt these children before having their own biological babies, or be labelled selfish and weird.

Also, the idea that people think it's okay to turn around to someone they know is struggling with fertility and say "why don't you just adopt" is so insensitive. Regardless of all the other stuff I implore whoever thinks that would be okay to please rethink, many people who are going through the ordeal of IVF would find that so inappropriate.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Also, the idea that people think it's okay to turn around to someone they know is struggling with fertility and say "why don't you just adopt" is so insensitive. Regardless of all the other stuff I implore whoever thinks that would be okay to please rethink, many people who are going through the ordeal of IVF would find that so inappropriate.

I assume you are passive aggressively directing this at me, even if you didn't quote, so I'll reply anyhow.

I think it's ok to be a bit insensitive when speaking a truth. And from what I see most would agree with that when it suits them, tbh. Sometimes it's even good for us to hear what might make us feel uncomfortable.

But, that aside, it's a valid question and it's really only the potential answer that really has the power to make a person feel uncomfortable with themselves.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I think it's ok to be a bit insensitive when speaking a truth.

It's not the truth, it's just your expectation of how they should live their life based on your opinion.

For full transparency, I personally don't understand the importance of having a child - biological or not. I fight against the idea that not having children is selfish and the idea that having children is this selfless thing you can do. I think both choices are selfish in different ways - people have kids because they want them and usually biologically because they want mini versions of themselves. I personally will never understand. However I don't believe what I think matters to anybody else. When someone tells me they're pregnant I don't say "Why" which is what I say in my head. I congratulate them if they're happy about it.

If I was in a conversation with someone who was talking about wanting their own child (whether they are biologically able to or not) I would never share that I don't understand the need, I'd just respect that, for them, it's super important and something they want from life. That empathy extends even more greatly when that person really wants a baby but is struggling to conceive. It's such an emotionally taxing situation and it really doesn't need unhelpful input from people who believe they are 'just speaking the truth' when really they're just imparting their opinion on a subject that is often painful to discuss.

If the idea is that you think adoption is important because it helps a child in need, then you should really hold everyone to the same sort of standard, otherwise it's not about the children at all.

[Livia]

I'm firmly with Vesavius on this question. Having a child is not your right. It seems odd to turn to this kind of weird science when there are kids languishing in children's homes.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It's not the truth, it's just your expectation of how they should live their life based on your opinion.

Opinions can also be the truth.

Originally Posted by BBXX

However I don't believe what I think matters to anybody else.

Then why saying anything about anything ever?

You clearly do want what you say and think to matter to others.

Originally Posted by BBXX

If I was in a conversation with someone who was talking about wanting their own child (whether they are biologically able to or not) I would never share...

That's fine, I understand that, but it doesn't make you a better or superior person in any sense.

Originally Posted by BBXX

If the idea is that you think adoption is important because it helps a child in need, then you should really hold everyone to the same sort of standard, otherwise it's not about the children at all.

Yes, I do think adoption is super important.

No, I don't have a universal standard that I apply to all situations regarding this. That would be silly. Different cases require different considerations.

Mostly the point I have been making is regarding how, IMO, that the money forcing a this to happen could be spent giving a child that needs a home a better life, rather than serving a vanity. It's just my feeling on it, I don't hate anyone that chooses to do differently or anything.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Opinions can also be the truth.
Then why saying anything about anything ever?

You clearly do want what you say to matter to others.

I think it's about the context. I don't mind having a debate with people, but I think when it's something so personal and saying something won't change anything, some things are just better left unsaid.

That's fine, I understand that, but it doesn't make you a better or superior person in any sense.

I didn't say it did, but saying something that will make someone feel worse about a medical condition that already brings them pain isn't a great choice.

Mostly the point I have been making is regarding how, IMO, that money forcing a thing to happen against nature could be spent giving a child that needs a home a better life, rather than serving a vanity. It's just my feeling on it, I don't hate anyone that chooses to do differently or anything.

Fair enough... I think if people can solve a medical anomalies with money and it helps improve their life then I think they should be able to do with without judgement of being called selfish or weird or vain, but that's just my personal opinion on it.

[BBXX]

Straight/Fertile people: I'm going to use the NHS to have a biological child instead of adopting the children languishing in a children's homes.
Infertile/Trans/Gay people: I'm going to use my own money to pay privately to have medical treatment so I can have a biological child instead of adopting the children languishing in a children's home
Straight/Fertile people: That's selfish

lol ok.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I think it's about the context. I don't mind having a debate with people, but I think when it's something so personal and saying something won't change anything, some things are just better left unsaid.



I didn't say it did, but saying something that will make someone feel worse about a medical condition that already brings them pain isn't a great choice.

The best choice is not always the most comfortable one for ourselves. Sometimes we need someone to point that out.

Originally Posted by BBXX

Fair enough... I think if people can solve a medical anomalies with money and it helps improve their life then I think they should be able to do with without judgement of being called selfish or weird or vain, but that's just my personal opinion on it.

I support their right to spend their money how they wish, but I also support my right to hold and voice a personal opinion on it.

Originally Posted by BBXX

...it helps improve their life...

isn't this the core of why I used a word like selfish?

They could have used that money to improve the life of another, but they chose to use it just to improve their own.

Honestly, and I am making an assumption here so I am open to being corrected, it seems to me that someone on the Left should really be arguing for adoption rather than the wealthy using money to satisfy their own wants.

A community should look after each other, not just chase their own desires?

[BBXX]

isn't this the core of why I used a word like selfish?

They could have used that money to improve the life of another, but they chose to use it just to improve their own.

So could any fertile person. Why are they less selfish for having a biological child when they could have chosen to improve the life of one through adoption?

Nobody has biological children for selfless reasons, let's be clear, but it seems like only infertile people or couples who biologically cannot have children together have the responsibility to make a child's life better while fertile and straight people can do as they please without your judgement. Just seems an odd angle to take that's all, but you're entitled to that opinion.

Originally Posted by vesavius

Honestly, and I am making an assumption here so I am open to being corrected, it seems to me that someone on the Left should really be arguing for adoption rather than the wealthy using money to satisfy their own wants.

A community should look after each other, not just chase their own desires?

I've always said I'm socially left wing and economically right wing. If someone wants to spend their own money to improve their life, I have no issue with that.

Someone spending their own money to have biological children instead of adopting is their own choice and I'm not going to judge them for it in the same way I wouldn't judge someone who CAN have children biologically for the same choice.

I think adoption is great and I have a lot of respect for those who both adopt and foster. But also, I'm very aware I've made the choice to never have children through any means because they would inexplicably make my life worse. So I can't stand on my high horse and judge others for not adopting when I never will.

If people on this thread feel so highly about adoption, they can do so. If they choose not to, while judging others for making the same choice then I am not sure what to say.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

The best choice is not always the most comfortable one for ourselves. Sometimes we need someone to point that out.

Also, very few people going through infertility wants to hear this from anyone, whether you think it's your job to point it out or not (which it isn't).

It's akin to telling someone experiencing mental health problems instead of them paying for therapy have they just tried not feeling sad.

[Niamh.]

I think the wider debate here is whether you agree with Surrogacy/Sperm donation. The fact that Zelah is trans is really neither here nor there, as others have pointed out these issues aren't specific to only trans people

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

So could any fertile person.

Again, this is a conversation from my position is mainly about the cost of the process and now it could be better spent improving the life of a child in need.

Do I need to say that fertilising an egg is usually free?

Originally Posted by BBXX

nobody has biological children for selfless reasons, let's be clear.

Seems quite bold to speak for everything like this.

Originally Posted by BBXX

If people on this thread feel so highly about adoption, they can do so. If they choose not to, while judging others for making the same choice then I am not sure what to say.

I mean, who does this apply to here in this thread?

[AnnieK]

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Also, very few people going through infertility wants to hear this from anyone, whether you think it's your job to point it out or not (which it isn't).

Again, what we want to hear and what we need to hear are often not the same things.

I don't think that it's your job to tell me what my job is.

It's akin to telling someone experiencing mental health problems instead of them paying for therapy have they just tried not feeling sad

No it isn't. False analogy.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.