[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Copying and pasting something as a quote and saying that it's a quote / where is came from is one thing and part of a normal debate. If someone copy and pastes some other random internet member's post from another site as if it's your own post it makes debating or discussing with that member entirely pointless for me and I'm sure for others. It's not a real discussion? It's a complete waste of people's time honestly... and let's face it, we're not making the best use of our time debating on here as it is .

I have already explained most were from Wiki I was not going on to forums nicking posts ,I posted a couple of posts that reflected my thoughts and stuff people might not have known that's all .I haven't killed anyone........yet

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

snip/.
No way would I trust these 2 as believable or trustworthy and likely never as reliable witnesses.

would you trust Jackson with your 7 year old son to stay at Neverland alone in his room?

yes or no?

[LeatherTrumpet]

But you dont understand, he is a child himself and he just wants to be around young boys (not girls) as he loves their vulnerable innocent youth. Yes he sleeps with them but nothing happens

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Debating is a pointless process in general we do it but it don’t mean anything.

In a non-professional setting I agree that it doesn't mean anything but I disagree that it's pointless; logic and reason are skills and if you neglect them they'll go rusty.

Of course I'm talking about actual debate and discussion here not the arm-flailing and outrage that often seems to declare itself such.

TiBB is 95% of the time one of the worst places in the world for debate of course but for some reason we're all stuck here like some sort of bizarre purgatory of quicksand. The more you struggle, the more stuck you become .

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In a non-professional setting I agree that it doesn't mean anything but I disagree that it's pointless; logic and reason are skills and if you neglect them they'll go rusty.

Of course I'm talking about actual debate and discussion here not the arm-flailing and outrage that often seems to declare itself such.

TiBB is 95% of the time one of the worst places in the world for debate of course but for some reason we're all stuck here like some sort of bizarre purgatory of quicksand. The more you struggle, the more stuck you become .

I find it very difficult to debate with people who are so wrong about so many things?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I find it very difficult to debate with people who are so wrong about so many things?

I don't think it's so much about right or wrong, difference of opinion is one thing, but the unwillingness to accept proven facts makes it impossible at times. I mean, I strongly disagree with Joey that the two in this documentary are robotic or emotionless but at the end of the day that's entirely down to individual opinion and perception.

But when it's things like;

"Err if a kid was abused they would definitely tell someone quickly."

"What proof do you have of that?"

"Just seems obvious to me. Doesn't seem right that they wouldn't."

"...but THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of documented, verified child grooming and abuse cases show that it's very common for people to keep these things secret and lie about them for decades after the abuse."

"Nah. I don't buy it."


That's when things start to become... yeh, pointless.

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

But you dont understand, he is a child himself and he just wants to be around young boys (not girls) as he loves their vulnerable innocent youth. Yes he sleeps with them but nothing happens

Yes Sadly he did Wrong.
Now Dead
And Sony/BMG now own most of his Hits

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me

James mother at least seemed to really blame herself, Wades mother on the other hand , bloody hell, it's no wonder it took him so long to admit what happened

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think it's so much about right or wrong, difference of opinion is one thing, but the unwillingness to accept proven facts makes it impossible at times. I mean, I strongly disagree with Joey that the two in this documentary are robotic or emotionless but at the end of the day that's entirely down to individual opinion and perception.

But when it's things like;

"Err if a kid was abused they would definitely tell someone quickly."

"What proof do you have of that?"

"Just seems obvious to me. Doesn't seem right that they wouldn't."

"...but THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of documented, verified child grooming and abuse cases show that it's very common for people to keep these things secret and lie about them for decades after the abuse."

"Nah. I don't buy it."


That's when things start to become... yeh, pointless.

The same can be said for those refusing to answer questions the other way round such as why were the family so desperate to go to the funeral,why was the jewellery kept,why was some of the stuff about them omitted from the story,such as Wade going out with MJs niece ,and the claim against the estate that was thrown out so they try again,the mother sleeping with the jacket,Wade testifying AGAIN as an adult still defending Jackson,MJ yes he was strange but if you ask me so are these families.This is not a clear and cut case imo.Plus is posting pics up of him with boys supposed to say something as if you look around plenty of girls stayed there and had pics took.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

James mother at least seemed to really blame herself, Wades mother on the other hand , bloody hell, it's no wonder it took him so long to admit what happened

I thought it was the other way around? . It was Wade's mother who had been sort of cut off from the older brother etc. who was struggling to forgive her and expressed that she was struggling to forgive herself. James' mother seemed to have come to terms with it to a much larger degree.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

The same can be said for those refusing to answer questions the other way round such as why were the family so desperate to go to the funeral,why was the jewellery kept,why was some of the stuff about them omitted from the story,such as Wade going out with MJs niece ,and the claim against the estate that was thrown out so they try again,the mother sleeping with the jacket,Wade testifying AGAIN as an adult still defending Jackson,MJ yes he was strange but if you ask me so are these families.This is not a clear and cut case imo.

Completely agree. The simple fact is as MJ is dead there is zero chance of ever finding out what happened (although even if alive he would still deny it even if it were the absolute truth)

All I can see is that lives have been wrecked / effected by the actions of a grown man towards children. Its a very sad situation but one that will never be resolved one way or another.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

why were the family so desperate to go to the funeral

why was the jewellery kept

and the claim against the estate that was thrown out so they try again

the mother sleeping with the jacket

Wade testifying AGAIN as an adult still defending Jackson

Literally all of this was explained in the documentary AND repeatedly in this thread. You not being able to understand or "not buying" the explanation is not the same thing as no explanation being offered.

why was some of the stuff about them omitted from the story, such as Wade going out with MJs niece

I agree there were a few details left out (Wade cheating on Jackson's neice, and the stuff with Justin and Britney), likely because it was felt that it would make viewers feel less sympathy for him but I also fail to see how any of these details are relevant to what happened between him and jackson when he was a kid? If anything, unhealthy adult relationships and friendships are often a sign of a troubled childhood. I suppose they left it out knowing that people "wouldn't buy that".

[Kazanne]

Why would he in all honesty do the exact same thing after the turmoil he went through with the first court case, it almost ruined his career, so why would he go back there and risk it all again, If he was this clever bloke that set all this grooming etc up ,why on Gods earth would he risk all that again

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Why would he in all honesty do the exact same thing after the turmoil he went through with the first court case, it almost ruined his career, so why would he go back there and risk it all again, If he was this clever bloke that set all this grooming etc up ,why on Gods earth would he risk all that again

Flip that question around;

Why would he continue to have close, questionable friendships with more children knowing what happened with Jordan Chandler? If they were just innocent friendships that he enjoyed, why wouldn't he say "I know people think it looked bad the last time" and change his way of doing things. And it's not even that he couldn't still befriend children, but why wouldn't he take precautions e.g. always have the kid's parents or another adult around to witness that everything was OK, if any kids sleep over always sleep in separate rooms, just general safeguarding.

Why wouldn't he do that? Unless he had a compulsive reason to want to be alone with children that he wasn't able to keep in check.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They were talking about being abused they say, of lying most of their lives up to now,
Now, they say, telling all with the unpleasant details.

With no emotion or passion at all.

Like reading from a prepared script, you get more passion from a newsreader reading the news.

The relief of being able to now reveal their story, particularly as to the abuse the allege took place.
Should have opened up loads of emotion.

A bit of anger at what happened, had it been true, would have surfaced.

They came across as robotic as the first night.

I doubt passion and emotion has been robbed from them.
I'd bet probably plenty of emotion and passion came forward when the court threw out their claim on the Jackson estate.
I'd like to see any footage of when they got that news.

If they lose this appeal coming up soon now after this documentary.
I'd again bet probably, passion and emotion would surface.

Since their gambling of having this documentary done at this time only, would have failed in the purpose they, (in my view), had for it to help secure hopeful success for money from the Jackson estate.

I feel as sure as I can be, there'd be probably lots of passion, emotion and anger, if we could see it then.

I watched them in both nights of this documentary.
Very closely.
They came across as mixing truth and an invention of lies, to cloud the issue
It's a clever process but things have to add up.

For me, therein was the problem, things didn't add up.
There was no change of tone, nothing, just like they were reading notes.
Yet this is an issue they were attempting to present that has affected their lives right up to now.

For me that attempt failed and rather badly too.
No way would I trust these 2 as believable or trustworthy and likely never as reliable witnesses.

What about the young cancer victim claiming jacko fondled him..?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by parmnion

What about the young cancer victim claiming jacko fondled him..?

And the kid claiming that MJ sexually harassed him by phone who has never tried to make any money from it. And another kid who has made claims, and never tried to make any money from it. And the at least six known "close kid friends" of his who haven't made any claims against him but refuse to defend him.

I can think of many reasons that an adult who was abused as a kid would want to just get on with their life and not come out now with accusations (that many will claim are false). I can't think of many reasons that a kid who was close to Jackson and knows he did NOT do anything inappropriate with them, would be silent and not at least say "He didn't do anything to me, that's all I have to say on the matter".

Why have these other boys stayed quiet if they know it was all innocent? Where were they at the two trials? No one seems willing to ask those uncomfortable questions, either.

[parmnion]

He went from abusing healthy boys until he got found out then to me it looks like he went for sick boys who perhaps relied on his money more so may have stayed quiet...it didn't work..

[bitontheslide]

just by human nature a certain percentage of people will believe that Jackson is innocent no matter how much evidence is stacked up against him. That's just how people are, there is nothing wrong with that. However, it is the trusting nature inherent in many people that Jackson and others of his ilk took advantage of. Thats why it doesnt matter how good our justice system is, it doesnt matter how good our protection systems are, there will always be victims readily available for abuse

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

just by human nature a certain percentage of people will believe that Jackson is innocent no matter how much evidence is stacked up against him. That's just how people are, there is nothing wrong with that. However, it is the trusting nature inherent in many people that Jackson and others of his ilk took advantage of. Thats why it doesnt matter how good our justice system is, it doesnt matter how good our protection systems are, there will always be victims readily available for abuse

and add to that the fact that so many people have invested so much of their lives in his music its natural to seek the easier path of denial

[LeatherTrumpet]

"‘The Simpsons’ pull Michael Jackson episode amid sex abuse allegations"

source: lots of news media

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"‘The Simpsons’ pull Michael Jackson episode amid sex abuse allegations"

source: lots of news media

i bet Southpark don't pull their episode

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i bet Southpark don't pull their episode

Youtube video

ffs

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

Beause quoting stories or whatever is exactly whats happened here I mean, I have even quoted a post I have read elsewhere at times, once or twice over the years, but I say..this basically mirrors my views and quote it, and also link to the original post. Thats normal. What happened here, was not. Passing off someone elses posts as yours (especially in a topic you are passionate about, where you would have your own strong views..), is unusual regardless of who is doing it and I would point it out whoever it was. But meh. Shes been posting her own views since so, no bad.

Some of the posts since I last read this thread have been a bit gross tbh. Its one thing to say you disbelieve these men. Its quite another to be all (paraphrasing) 'the abuse could not have been that bad or they would have to tell someone' and trotting out basically a load of myths about how abused kids should/do behave. experts have looked into this for years and years and agree there is no 'right' reaction, hell, some bottle it all up FOREVER bringing on a load more mental health issues but still refuse to talk! But I guess people throw out all sense when discussing a celeb they like. Or so it seems.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

and add to that the fact that so many people have invested so much of their lives in his music its natural to seek the easier path of denial

Honestly I get it tbh, I was a huge Buffy geek ( ) in my early teens and if it's randomly on telly now I find it very hard to watch (because Xander later in life became an alcoholic and a woman-beater). It's tough not to think about those things if you try to watch it again.

Likewise, me and my wife loved the trash of One Tree Hill but I can't see it on TV now without thinking about how the showrunner was bullying and abusing basically every female cast member.

It sucks but it is what it is.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Beause quoting stories or whatever is exactly whats happened here I mean, I have even quoted a post I have read elsewhere at times, once or twice over the years, but I say..this basically mirrors my views and quote it, and also link to the original post. Thats normal. What happened here, was not. Passing off someone elses posts as yours (especially in a topic you are passionate about, where you would have your own strong views..), is unusual regardless of who is doing it and I would point it out whoever it was. But meh. Shes been posting her own views since so, no bad.

Some of the posts since I last read this thread have been a bit gross tbh. Its one thing to say you disbelieve these men. Its quite another to be all (paraphrasing) 'the abuse could not have been that bad or they would have to tell someone' and trotting out basically a load of myths about how abused kids should/do behave. experts have looked into this for years and years and agree there is no 'right' reaction, hell, some bottle it all up FOREVER bringing on a load more mental health issues but still refuse to talk! But I guess people throw out all sense when discussing a celeb they like. Or so it seems.

I think that is more a lack of understanding about grooming and how abusers gain the trust of their victims and quite often their families for many years before the "actual" abuse starts. Or at least I hope its a lack of understanding.