[Zippy]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Firstly lets get rid of the sentimental twaddle about him being young, poor thing to young to realize and so and so.....Utter twaddle...

11 years old......Indeed old enough to know what he was doing

An adult crime deserves an adult sentence. Just what this crime riddled drugs mania country needs.

Those that mutter on about rehabilitation. Why oh why should society spend any more money on a cold blooded killer when other more deserving parts of society are crying out for money....

Society should not even wast public money on long jail sentences.....There are deserving people who need services to be spent on them instead of being wasted on trash......

right wing BS

and ignorant. adult sentence? potentially 90 years. Yep thats adult alright!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Firstly lets get rid of the sentimental twaddle about him being young, poor thing to young to realize and so and so.....Utter twaddle...

11 years old......Indeed old enough to know what he was doing

An adult crime deserves an adult sentence. Just what this crime riddled drugs mania country needs.

Those that mutter on about rehabilitation. Why oh why should society spend any more money on a cold blooded killer when other more deserving parts of society are crying out for money....

Society should not even wast public money on long jail sentences.....There are deserving people who need services to be spent on them instead of being wasted on trash......

Yes! Let's not bother wasting money on trials either! We can just execute anyone suspected of a crime. They probably did it anyway right? Kill them all I say, that'll definitely work.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Firstly lets get rid of the sentimental twaddle about him being young, poor thing to young to realize and so and so.....Utter twaddle...

11 years old......Indeed old enough to know what he was doing

An adult crime deserves an adult sentence. Just what this crime riddled drugs mania country needs.

Those that mutter on about rehabilitation. Why oh why should society spend any more money on a cold blooded killer when other more deserving parts of society are crying out for money....

Society should not even wast public money on long jail sentences.....There are deserving people who need services to be spent on them instead of being wasted on trash......

Execution costs the state far more than life imprisonment. I believe you have been told this multiple times before by various members whom you have choosen to ignore.

Maybe you stopped developing at 11 but the rest of us didn't.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Firstly lets get rid of the sentimental twaddle about him being young, poor thing to young to realize and so and so.....Utter twaddle...

11 years old......Indeed old enough to know what he was doing

An adult crime deserves an adult sentence. Just what this crime riddled drugs mania country needs.

Those that mutter on about rehabilitation. Why oh why should society spend any more money on a cold blooded killer when other more deserving parts of society are crying out for money....

Society should not even wast public money on long jail sentences.....There are deserving people who need services to be spent on them instead of being wasted on trash......

I'm with this, and I'll be the first to admit I have a pretty 'blinkered' view on this type of crime and will not be swayed by the old 'rehabilitation' crap.

The victims never got a chance at life first time around - so why the hell should those responsible get a second chance.

forgiving? No, I'm not. Very harsh view? Yes. Am I wrong to have this view? No, because it is my view and I'm at liberty to have it - whilst respecting other's opinions on the rehab slant, it's not a view I share.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I'm with this, and I'll be the first to admit I have a pretty 'blinkered' view on this type of crime and will not be swayed by the old 'rehabilitation' crap.

The victims never got a chance at life first time around - so why the hell should those responsible get a second chance.

forgiving? No, I'm not. Very harsh view? Yes. Am I wrong to have this view? No, because it is my view and I'm at liberty to have it - whilst respecting other's opinions on the rehab slant, it's not a view I share.

So you dont believe it's worth putting time and effort to possibly make these people better and members of society again?

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by InOne

So you dont believe it's worth putting time and effort to possibly make these people better and members of society again?

If you want me to be brutally honest? At 11 years of age, the child is old enough to know right from wrong. They may not be fully appreciative of the consequences and ramfications of their actions, but they certainly know right from wrong as far as treatment to another human being is concerned. So the short answer is No, I don't believe it's worth putting time, effort and money into something that will never be a sure an absolutely certainty.

[InOne]

Have some post been deleted in this thread?

[InOne]

I think 11 is a reasonable age to know what you're doing, some people are going on like he was 5 at the time or something. Has it said if he has shown remorse or anything? But I don't think if you are a definite danger to society you should not be let out, no matter what age you commited the crime. And this is no ordinary crime

[Stu]

Of course he knew what he was doing. Why do I get the feeling I will be explaining this ad nauseam for the rest of my life?

An eleven year old might know they are killing someone. But that's just the physical action and simplistic, child like, presumably angry mindset that led to it. A conscious, reflective understanding and contemplation of the crime though would be vastly different.

A human brain has not even begun maturing at eleven. I don't care what anybody says and I don't need to explain that. That said I will stress again that I am talking in general terms here. Maybe he is a psychopath who will never show remorse.

Then again ... maybe between now and his eighteenth birthday things could change quite drastically and we could make him understand instead of just keeping him gaga and throwing away the key. I'm personally very interested in the could and believe it is worth a shot. It's not as if he will be released anyway at eighteen or whatever age if the rehabilitation is a dismal faliure. But it's worth trying. It's this baseless, Daily Mailized eye for an eye attitude people apply to every title they read without even thinking about it that irks me senseless.

Responses by certain folk may include such phrases as 'oh please!', 'bleeding heart!' 'spare me the ____!' or in light of me getting their first 'your a smart, smug shit aren't you?'.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Stu

Of course he knew what he was doing. Why do I get the feeling I will be explaining this ad nauseam for the rest of my life?

An eleven year old might know they are killing someone. But that's just the physical action and simplistic, child like, presumably angry mindset that led to it. A conscious, reflective understanding and contemplation of the crime though would be vastly different.

this

I know from personal experience how you can become a totally different person as an adult from when you were a child. It's called growing up and seeing things on a deeper level...with consequences.

I was a criminal not much older than this kid. Spent time in homes and detention centres. Missed years of school.

But now I look back and can't even remember what the hell I was thinking..how I even had the balls to do the stuff I did. Could never do it now and it wouldn't even enter my head to do so. Because Ive grown and Ive learned from my mistakes. My mindset has vastly changed and I care more about how my actions affects others. Young children are often not capable of that...especially if theyre damaged and unloved.

So I say BS to anybody who thinks this boys behaviour is somehow set in stone. NO IT IS NOT. He can still go on to be a good productive member of society. Indeed, many people working in victim support and rehabilitation were once criminals who served time. Now they are giving back in a way thats truly beneficial to society.

Not saying this kid will become an angel. But I think a civilised society should keep all options open and at least give him a chance to redeem himself at some point. His victim aint coming back whatever happens so unless youre all about revenge there's no need to destroy another life here.

But as Ive said, he should still serve a lengthy sentence. I think the killers of Jamie Bulger should have served a much longer sentence too. At that age they can afford to lose at least 15 years of freedom and still have a chance to build a life.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Zippy

this

I know from personal experience how you can become a totally different person as an adult from when you were a child. It's called growing up and seeing things on a deeper level...with consequences.

I was a criminal not much older than this kid. Spent time in homes and detention centres. Missed years of school.

But now I look back and can't even remember what the hell I was thinking..how I even had the balls to do the stuff I did. Could never do it now and it wouldn't even enter my head to do so. Because Ive grown and Ive learned from my mistakes. My mindset has vastly changed and I care more about how my actions affects others. Young children are often not capable of that...especially if theyre damaged and unloved.

So I say BS to anybody who thinks this boys behaviour is somehow set in stone. NO IT IS NOT. He can still go on to be a good productive member of society. Indeed, many people working in victim support and rehabilitation were once criminals who served time. Now they are giving back in a way thats truly beneficial to society.

Not saying this kid will become an angel. But I think a civilised society should keep all options open and at least give him a chance to redeem himself at some point. His victim aint coming back whatever happens so unless youre all about revenge there's no need to destroy another life here.

But as Ive said, he should still serve a lengthy sentence. I think the killers of Jamie Bulger should have served a much longer sentence too. At that age they can afford to lose at least 15 years of freedom and still have a chance to build a life.

I agree with almost all of the post, apart from the bit in bold. I think there are individuals who are irredeemable and it's a gross error to assume that EVERYONE is 'fixable'. They're not. What happens if we keep trying to fix them and, every time we think the job's done, they go out and kill someone else? A civilised society SHOULDN'T take risks with the safety of the general public because of liberal intentions - however good those intentions may be. We cannot know for certain either way in relation to this boy and it's a matter for psychiatric experts to decide. Particularly in relation to children, we're probably a long way from satisfactory methods of assessment; the Jamie Bolger case seems to indicate this.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

I agree with almost all of the post, apart from the bit in bold. I think there are individuals who are irredeemable and it's a gross error to assume that EVERYONE is 'fixable'. They're not. What happens if we keep trying to fix them and, every time we think the job's done, they go out and kill someone else? A civilised society SHOULDN'T take risks with the safety of the general public because of liberal intentions - however good those intentions may be. We cannot know for certain either way in relation to this boy and it's a matter for psychiatric experts to decide. Particularly in relation to children, we're probably a long way from satisfactory methods of assessment; the Jamie Bolger case seems to indicate this.

Completely agree. What's more I have little interest in the sob stories of those who say they have been rehabilitated unless they are accompanied by solid evidence that they made restitution to those that they abused/assaulted/stole from etc etc. I am more concerned as to the welfare and future of the victim, not the criminal. If someone has killed someone, I have less than zero interest in their future wellbeing and would work on the assumption that anyone capable of killing a human being in the first place, does not deserve my trust or confidence that they will not re-offend.

As to the allegations that those of us who wish to see murderers kept well away from mainstream society are simply hellbent on revenge, that is the typical response of your average liberal apologist. How about the fact that what we want to see is actual, equitable and appropriate JUSTICE?

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by angus58

Completely agree. What's more I have little interest in the sob stories of those who say they have been rehabilitated unless they are accompanied by solid evidence that they made restitution to those that they abused/assaulted/stole from etc etc. I am more concerned as to the welfare and future of the victim, not the criminal. If someone has killed someone, I have less than zero interest in their future wellbeing and would work on the assumption that anyone capable of killing a human being in the first place, does not deserve my trust or confidence that they will not re-offend.

As to the allegations that those of us who wish to see murderers kept well away from mainstream society are simply hellbent on revenge, that is the typical response of your average liberal apologist. How about the fact that what we want to see is actual, equitable and appropriate JUSTICE?

you clearly are all about revenge. Pathetic you can't even admit that much.

Your idea of justice, thankfully, isn't mine.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by angus58

Completely agree. What's more I have little interest in the sob stories of those who say they have been rehabilitated unless they are accompanied by solid evidence that they made restitution to those that they abused/assaulted/stole from etc etc. I am more concerned as to the welfare and future of the victim, not the criminal. If someone has killed someone, I have less than zero interest in their future wellbeing and would work on the assumption that anyone capable of killing a human being in the first place, does not deserve my trust or confidence that they will not re-offend.

As to the allegations that those of us who wish to see murderers kept well away from mainstream society are simply hellbent on revenge, that is the typical response of your average liberal apologist. How about the fact that what we want to see is actual, equitable and appropriate JUSTICE?

I agree. Bloody immigrants.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

I agree with almost all of the post, apart from the bit in bold. I think there are individuals who are irredeemable and it's a gross error to assume that EVERYONE is 'fixable'. They're not. What happens if we keep trying to fix them and, every time we think the job's done, they go out and kill someone else? A civilised society SHOULDN'T take risks with the safety of the general public because of liberal intentions - however good those intentions may be. We cannot know for certain either way in relation to this boy and it's a matter for psychiatric experts to decide. Particularly in relation to children, we're probably a long way from satisfactory methods of assessment; the Jamie Bolger case seems to indicate this.

A civilised society has to take risks. Otherwise nobody would ever be released from prison or psychiatric hospitals!

Repeat offenders are constantly released time and time again; muggers, burglars, violent abusers,...even rapists. These are far more of a menace to society than somebody who has killed one specific person. Murder is usually a one off act that is never repeated. Which is why serial killers are so rare. Even if this boy were to be released now I think there's a good chance he would never kill again. And, no, Im not saying he should be released now! Point is, as extreme a crime his was its not something he would likely repeat over and over. Most murders are very specific; a personal conflict between individuals. Theyre not random.

I never said this boy will definitely be "fixed". But he is a young child and far far from being fully cooked. I never even had any rehabilitation myself but changed my attitude just through the process of simply growing up. With a child that age there are strong possibilies for growth and change. A civilised society would leave a door open for that to happen. Condemning him to life without parole is shutting every door and leaving him with no hope and nothing to improve himself for. And who benefits from that? Nobody. It's good if revenge is all you want but does sod all to address any other issues.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Zippy

A civilised society has to take risks. Otherwise nobody would ever be released from prison or psychiatric hospitals!
Repeat offenders are constantly released time and time again; muggers, burglars, violent abusers,...even rapists. These are far more of a menace to society than somebody who has killed one specific person. Murder is usually a one off act that is never repeated. Which is why serial killers are so rare. Even if this boy were to be released now I think there's a good chance he would never kill again. And, no, Im not saying he should be released now! Point is, as extreme a crime his was its not something he would likely repeat over and over. Most murders are very specific; a personal conflict between individuals. Theyre not random.

I never said this boy will definitely be "fixed". But he is a young child and far far from being fully cooked. I never even had any rehabilitation myself but changed my attitude just through the process of simply growing up. With a child that age there are strong possibilies for growth and change. A civilised society would leave a door open for that to happen. Condemning him to life without parole is shutting every door and leaving him with no hope and nothing to improve himself for. And who benefits from that? Nobody. It's good if revenge is all you want but does sod all to address any other issues.

You seem to have missed the point I was attempting to make. You said it was BS to say that he couldn't be rehabilitated - well I think it's also BS to say he can. You and I don't know either way. Top quality psychiatrict assessment is the only way to establish the probability. BIB1, I didn't say you NEVER take risks; I said you don't take risks with psychopaths out of liberal sentimentality. In terms of rescidivism, I posted at length about exactly this earlier, you must have missed that.
BIB 2, if he's a psychopath, everybody benefits from him being shut away from society for the rest of his natural life - including him, by the way.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

I agree with almost all of the post, apart from the bit in bold. I think there are individuals who are irredeemable and it's a gross error to assume that EVERYONE is 'fixable'. They're not. What happens if we keep trying to fix them and, every time we think the job's done, they go out and kill someone else? A civilised society SHOULDN'T take risks with the safety of the general public because of liberal intentions - however good those intentions may be. We cannot know for certain either way in relation to this boy and it's a matter for psychiatric experts to decide. Particularly in relation to children, we're probably a long way from satisfactory methods of assessment; the Jamie Bolger case seems to indicate this.

While it is probably a mistake to assume everyone is 'fixable', shouldn't a civilised society do its best to at least try to rehabilitate children who commit crimes.

Incidentally you mentioned Jamie Bulger, couple of things, first the US criminal justice system is different from ours regarding rehabilitation.

Second there were two criminals involved in the Bulger case, while Venables was sent back to prison for child porn offences Robert Thompson appears to have been rehabilitated, at least so far.

Could i just suggest you also go look at the case of Mary Bell, so 2 out of 3 successes would you say?

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Shasown

While it is probably a mistake to assume everyone is 'fixable', shouldn't a civilised society do its best to at least try to rehabilitate children who commit crimes.

Incidentally you mentioned Jamie Bulger, couple of things, first the US criminal justice system is different from ours regarding rehabilitation.

Second there were two criminals involved in the Bulger case, while Venables was sent back to prison for child porn offences Robert Thompson appears to have been rehabilitated, at least so far.

Could i just suggest you also go look at the case of Mary Bell, so 2 out of 3 successes would you say?

I would say that when they die in old age of natural causes, then we can judge whether the system has succeeded or not. It's quite a few decades too early. And three is a rather small sample size. My contribution to the thread initially was exactly what you say in your first sentence. Nothing more.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Zippy

this

I know from personal experience how you can become a totally different person as an adult from when you were a child. It's called growing up and seeing things on a deeper level...with consequences.

I was a criminal not much older than this kid. Spent time in homes and detention centres. Missed years of school.

But now I look back and can't even remember what the hell I was thinking..how I even had the balls to do the stuff I did. Could never do it now and it wouldn't even enter my head to do so. Because Ive grown and Ive learned from my mistakes. My mindset has vastly changed and I care more about how my actions affects others. Young children are often not capable of that...especially if theyre damaged and unloved.

So I say BS to anybody who thinks this boys behaviour is somehow set in stone. NO IT IS NOT. He can still go on to be a good productive member of society. Indeed, many people working in victim support and rehabilitation were once criminals who served time. Now they are giving back in a way thats truly beneficial to society.

Not saying this kid will become an angel. But I think a civilised society should keep all options open and at least give him a chance to redeem himself at some point. His victim aint coming back whatever happens so unless youre all about revenge there's no need to destroy another life here.

But as Ive said, he should still serve a lengthy sentence. I think the killers of Jamie Bulger should have served a much longer sentence too. At that age they can afford to lose at least 15 years of freedom and still have a chance to build a life.

Just to be crystal clear. The bit in bold. "He can still go on to be a good productive member of society". Not "he could", not "maybe he can" - "he can".
My point, and I'm exhausted at this stage, is that none of us on here can know definitively that he can or cannot change, unless they are psychiatrists specialising in this area. My original point is that there are people who cannot be fixed.

[InOne]

Yeah, I also meant to say they should monitor his time in prison and that as well. See how he is and if he improves or whatever. I'm not the whip em and hang em type lol

[InOne]

I don't think people are born 'Evil' but some are born without a Conscience, and they will have the missing factors a normal person has, empathy and all that. But their background and intelligence will determine what they go on to do in life. No doubt it will still be no good though! Some are just better at getting their away with it and bluffing their way out.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by InOne

I don't think people are born 'Evil' but some are born without a Conscience, and they will have the missing factors a normal person has, empathy and all that. But their background and intelligence will determine what they go on to do in life. No doubt it will still be no good though! Some are just better at getting their away with it and bluffing their way out.

You post and the wording immediately reminded me of this man... Dr Robert Hare, expert in his field, and amongst other books, wrote one entitled, "Without conscience".

http://www.hare.org/welcome/bio.html

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

You post and the wording immediately reminded me of this man... Dr Robert Hare, expert in his field, and amongst other books, wrote one entitled, "Without conscience".

http://www.hare.org/welcome/bio.html

Yeah I've read his book

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by InOne

Yeah I've read his book

I had a sneaky wee feeling you might have done! I'm sure it was nothing more than coincedence, but it was the way the word Conscience was capitalised that 'stuck out' and made me think immediately of his book. (the old 'sub-conscious at work !! ).

[patsylimerick]

Just had a nosey around and it appears Bulger is an English variant of the Irish name Bolger. You learn something new every day.