[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Oh you mean its okay for christian, jewish hindi etc women to wear veils for traditional, religious and cultural reasons but not for muslim women to do the same?

Veils worn with a wedding dress is fashion, it's worn for a day and it isn't repressive.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Unfortunately its not the whole of Germany, only the state of Hesse.


Wonder if they will also fine brides wearing veils on the way to get married.

The state of Hessel is runned by Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by chuck.pass

The state of Hessel is runned by Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats.

Yeah so I read, should be quite amusing if a muslim runs with this to the ECHR on "religious" grounds and challenges the bans on it, especially if the court backed the right to wear and declared the ban illegal.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yeah so I read, should be quite amusing if a muslim runs with this to the ECHR on "religious" grounds and challenges the bans on it, especially if the court backed the right to wear and declared the ban illegal.

No danger of that happening seeing as how the wearing of the Burka is NOT a religious requirement - and I defy anyone on this forum to find such a dictat in the Qu'ran.

[Vicky.]

Should be banned anyway, everywhere, for security reasons.

Or banned when ENTERING somewhere with cctv. Like balaclavas and motorbike helmets are.

But we cant say 'oh I/the camera needs to see your face' now can we

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Should be banned anyway, everywhere, for security reasons.

Or banned when ENTERING somewhere with cctv. Like balaclavas and motorbike helmets are.

But we cant say 'oh I/the camera needs to see your face' now can we

Yes that could happen after any major attack in the UK.

[joeysteele]

Well I am sorry but I am glad some Countries are banning it now,in these days of terrorism etc, I think 'all' citizens and people and children everywhere should be able to see very clearly who they are with in buildings, shops/stores and sharing the streets and all public places with.
With no exceptions whatsoever.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

Of course it should be banned. Apparently it's unacceptable to offend an entire religion - but perfectly fine to oppress an entire gender.

Originally Posted by Zippy

I think they are a symbol of oppression. Totally sexist and send out a disgusting message that shouldnt be tolerated in this country.

What are our children learning from seeing women dressed like this? Take your backwards culture back to your own backwards country.

Originally Posted by Zippy

It's not about clothing. This garments sole purpose is to hide women away. Its offensive and demeaning to the female race.

Its not even a religious requirement. Even if it were I'd still be opposed.

And its damn creepy speaking to just a pair of eyes through a slit. Men wouldnt be allowed to go round in balaclavas. Certainly not in shops, airports etc.

Originally Posted by happyland

I'm not a feminist by the furthest stretch of the imagination but personally I believe the Burka symbolises oppression of women. I understand that their religion demands modesty, but to cover up every part of their body including their hair and head is just ridiculous in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Should be banned anyway, everywhere, for security reasons.

Or banned when ENTERING somewhere with cctv. Like balaclavas and motorbike helmets are.

But we cant say 'oh I/the camera needs to see your face' now can we

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well I am sorry but I am glad some Countries are banning it now,in these days of terrorism etc, I think 'all' citizens and people and children everywhere should be able to see very clearly who they are with in buildings, shops/stores and sharing the streets and all public places with.
With no exceptions whatsoever.

Yeah, I agree ..... the burka is an anachronistic, repressive and potentially lethal form of female clothing ..... ban it and burn it .....

[MTVN]

Yes I did mention indecent exposure in my post

[Livia]

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Livia

If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

amen

or save it for fancy dress parties.

its 2011 ffs and we don't need to be dragged back to the dark ages.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

Great post.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Civil? I don't think there's anything civil about degrading women in such a blatant way. It seriously offends many and, as Ive said before, sends a very bad message to children about womens role in our society.

And I do not think it is a minor threat at all. When you think about where the terrorist threats are coming from these days and the fact that identification is crucial.

Have you missed those news stories about suspects found trying to escape by wearing burkas? This is a reality.

Yes I consider it a civil liberty to be able to express your religion how you see fit. If some Muslims see that as wearing the burkha then I'm not going to judge them or stand in their way of doing so. It's not like they're harming anyone, if you feel offended then that's fine but you dont speak for everyone.

Besides a lot of people might consider it offensive and also quite nervous and endangered when they see a teenager going around with his hood up, that can also conceal identity.

As far as I am aware there has been a single case of a suspect escaping wearing a burkha, if you ban it because of him then you're punishing all burkha wearers for the actions of a sole individual. Let's not exaggerate the number who do wear one either, they're a minority within a minority, there are very very few Muslims who do wear a burkha

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.

We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.

[lily.]

I think all ugly people should be required to wear them under law.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yes I consider it a civil liberty to be able to express your religion how you see fit. If some Muslims see that as wearing the burkha then I'm not going to judge them or stand in their way of doing so. It's not like they're harming anyone, if you feel offended then that's fine but you dont speak for everyone.

Besides a lot of people might consider it offensive and also quite nervous and endangered when they see a teenager going around with his hood up, that can also conceal identity.

As far as I am aware there has been a single case of a suspect escaping wearing a burkha, if you ban it because of him then you're punishing all burkha wearers for the actions of a sole individual. Let's not exaggerate the number who do wear one either, they're a minority within a minority, there are very very few Muslims who do wear a burkha



This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.

We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.

Yes, yes YES at the bolded part. I'm just glad a lot of people in this topic will never know power.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yes, yes YES at the bolded part. I'm just glad a lot of people in this topic will never know power.

A lot of people in this topic will never know adequacy.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.

We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.

You are clearly misinterpreting what I wrote. They are intolerant, yes. But I don't see this country as being intolerant, and I don't see Germany these days as being intolerant either.

We are multicultural, yes. And I see that as a good thing. But this is not a secular country. The UK is a Christian country, with the Head of State - that's the Queen - being the Defender of the Faith - that's the Church of England. For you not to know that shows just how far down the road we've gone in appeasing Islam. Indidentally, I'm not a Christian, and I support people following whichever faith they choose.

I don't aspire to "ban every bit of clothing we don't like". Did you read the bit where I said I don't have a problem with people wearing the hajib or any other form of religious garb they choose to wear. But the burkha is different and I agree with it being banned. If someone doesn't like that and they want to wear one, best they should reconsider their decision to live in a country where women are free to vote, to be educated, to receive medical treatment and to work in just about any field they choose.

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Livia

You are clearly misinterpreting what I wrote. They are intolerant, yes. But I don't see this country as being intolerant, and I don't see Germany these days as being intolerant either.

We are multicultural, yes. And I see that as a good thing. But this is not a secular country. The UK is a Christian country, with the Head of State - that's the Queen - being the Defender of the Faith - that's the Church of England. For you not to know that shows just how far down the road we've gone in appeasing Islam. Indidentally, I'm not a Christian, and I support people following whichever faith they choose.

I don't aspire to "ban every bit of clothing we don't like". Did you read the bit where I said I don't have a problem with people wearing the hajib or any other form of religious garb they choose to wear. But the burkha is different and I agree with it being banned. If someone doesn't like that and they want to wear one, best they should reconsider their decision to live in a country where women are free to vote, to be educated, to receive medical treatment and to work in just about any field they choose.

EXCEPTIONALLY well said.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

You are clearly misinterpreting what I wrote. They are intolerant, yes. But I don't see this country as being intolerant, and I don't see Germany these days as being intolerant either.

We are multicultural, yes. And I see that as a good thing. But this is not a secular country. The UK is a Christian country, with the Head of State - that's the Queen - being the Defender of the Faith - that's the Church of England. For you not to know that shows just how far down the road we've gone in appeasing Islam. Indidentally, I'm not a Christian, and I support people following whichever faith they choose.

I don't aspire to "ban every bit of clothing we don't like". Did you read the bit where I said I don't have a problem with people wearing the hajib or any other form of religious garb they choose to wear. But the burkha is different and I agree with it being banned. If someone doesn't like that and they want to wear one, best they should reconsider their decision to live in a country where women are free to vote, to be educated, to receive medical treatment and to work in just about any field they choose.

Yes that reply was just a general comment on the whole "we have to cover up in their countries" argument that is often used as opposed to a specific response to your post

This is a secular country in all but name. Sure by law, the Queen is head of the CoE and we're a Christian nation but very few in this country hold a firm belief in God and Christianity is on the decline while Islam is on the rise. I am indeed well aware of the Queen's status so no need to be so patronising there.

Why is the burkha "different"? You didnt really give a reason there, you just stated that it was. The burkha is surely just an extension of the hijab, they are both intended to protect the Muslim womans modesty.

If there is a British Muslim woman and she considers the burkha crucial to her relgious beliefs then I feel she has every right to wear one, and I'd hope that she would be allowed to in a country that preaches civil liberties and freedom of religion, instead of being forced away to a fundamentalist and repressive country like Saudi.

It annoys me how people always say "they shouldnt have come here in the first place" and "we respet their culture" or something along those lines when more often or not your average Muslim in this country is just as British as you or I.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by MTVN

your average Muslim in this country is just as British as you or I.

It depends what you mean by "British" - for example, nationality does not confer heritage .....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yes that reply was just a general comment on the whole "we have to cover up in their countries" argument that is often used as opposed to a specific response to your post

This is a secular country in all but name. Sure by law, the Queen is head of the CoE and we're a Christian nation but very few in this country hold a firm belief in God and Christianity is on the decline while Islam is on the rise. I am indeed well aware of the Queen's status so no need to be so patronising there.

Why is the burkha "different"? You didnt really give a reason there, you just stated that it was. The burkha is surely just an extension of the hijab, they are both intended to protect the Muslim womans modesty.

If there is a British Muslim woman and she considers the burkha crucial to her relgious beliefs then I feel she has every right to wear one, and I'd hope that she would be allowed to in a country that preaches civil liberties and freedom of religion, instead of being forced away to a fundamentalist and repressive country like Saudi.

It annoys me how people always say "they shouldnt have come here in the first place" and "we respet their culture" or something along those lines when more often or not your average Muslim in this country is just as British as you or I.

As British as you, perhaps. What annoys ME is that you're assuming that I'm a white Anglo-Saxon protestant because I disagree with the Burkha. I've said over and over that I support people's religious freedom. You make me sound like a member of the BNP.

I am a Jew whose family (mostly) came to this country as refugees following release from the death camps after WW2. I have family living who are tattooed with their concentration camp numbers. You cannot equate Germany's ban on the burkha to their previous history which is what you tried to do in your original post by saying that Germany especially should be aware of their past. I am paraphrasing, obviously.

I never said they shouldn't come here in the first place. I am hardly in a position to say that. I have (generally) found this country has treated my family and our religious beliefs with respect and in return my family respected the culture and traditions of the UK. In a country so accepting of other cultures, it surprises me that people accuse this country of being unaccepting because they disagree with the burkha.

Anyway, we clearly disagree on this. And that's fine.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

Well done on this post
As with just about all of Livia's posts, the above is in my opinion the post of this thread.

Deep insight and perfectly presented. Pure fact,right and no invention in it whatsoever.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

I think what letmein meant was that Germany in the Third Reich is possibly the most terrifying example of totalitarianism in recent history. Germany has had to learn the dangers of the Idea of Progress and social engineering the hard way.

I think this burkha ban demands a worldview predicated upon the ghastly notion that people can somehow, paradoxically, be coerced into being free. That to allow people to do, say (and wear) what they please somehow constitutes oppressing them and they are only free when they are made to see reason. The inevitable culmination of this idealistic mentality in revolutionary France was the Reign of Terror, in the 20th century and today, it is the modern police state.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I think what letmein meant was that Germany in the Third Reich is possibly the most terrifying example of totalitarianism in recent history. Germany has had to learn the dangers of the Idea of Progress and social engineering the hard way.

I think this burkha ban demands a worldview predicated upon the ghastly notion that people can somehow, paradoxically, be coerced into being free. That to allow people to do, say (and wear) what they please somehow constitutes oppressing them and they are only free when they are made to see reason. The inevitable culmination of this idealistic mentality in revolutionary France was the Reign of Terror, in the 20th century and today, it is the modern police state.

Funny that, I have the complete opposite opinion - that Islam is a totalitarian political and religious ideology which is being imposed on us, the burka being a political statement NOT a religious one. I find it invidious that women in this country who have fought so long and hard for emancipation are expected to condone and accept this blatant visual reminder of the medieval mindset of a male dominated ideology without a murmur. THAT to me is oppressive and coercive.

It is not the garment per se, but its political symbolism of an intolerant and separatist "religion". I have no wish to live in such a society and its time women in this country made their voices heard, and braved the inevitable attempts to silence us with accusations of racism. We should oppose it not just for ourselves but for ALL women oppressed and subjugated by men. Furthermore, the notion that all women who wear the burka have CHOSEN to do so of their own free and unindoctrinated will and without the coercion of muslim men is a fantasy in the blinkered minds of idealists.

[InOne]

This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.

Youtube video