[Liam-]

I mean, let’s be perfectly honest here, is there any need for a debate really? People who are adamantly against the idea of trans people being the same as them, for whatever reason, are not going to change their minds for anything, that’s perfectly clear and the only time they’ll ever say a trans person is ‘honest’ or ‘balanced’ in the ‘debate’ is if they agree with them.

For me personally, the whole anti-trans movement really just reflects the age old story of the bullied kid, becoming a bully once they start to fit in, women have obviously been historically victimised throughout the ages, that’s not something that can be argued, but I think now a lot of the women who are a part of this hate campaign against the trans community, are doing it because they enjoy the fact that there’s a demographic of people that they can now feel like they have a semblance of power over, do I think there are some people with actual concerns? Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I mean, let’s be perfectly honest here, is there any need for a debate really? People who are adamantly against the idea of trans people being the same as them, for whatever reason, are not going to change their minds for anything, that’s perfectly clear and the only time they’ll ever say a trans person is ‘honest’ or ‘balanced’ in the ‘debate’ is if they agree with them.

For me personally, the whole anti-trans movement really just reflects the age old story of the bullied kid, becoming a bully once they start to fit in, women have obviously been historically victimised throughout the ages, that’s not something that can be argued, but I think now a lot of the women who are a part of this hate campaign against the trans community, are doing it because they enjoy the fact that there’s a demographic of people that they can now feel like they have a semblance of power over, do I think there are some people with actual concerns? Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

Yes there is absolutely a need for debate.

It isn't an "anti-trans" movement it's a women's rights movement. Are you really claiming that women, who have pretty much always been the strongest allies to the LGB community and included the "T" in that too up until the demands and complete change of our language has been forced upon us in recent years, have suddenly just turned into full on evil bullies for no apparent reason? Are you really saying the only thing that was stopping women from being bullying assholes before is that we had no one weaker than us?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes there's is absolutely a need for debate.

It isn't an "anti-trans" movement it's a women's rights movement. Are you really claiming that women, who have pretty much always been the strongest allies to the LGB community and included the "T" in that too up until the demands and complete change of our language has been forced upon us in recent years, have suddenly just turned into full on evil bullies for no apparent reason? Are you really saying the only thing that was stopping women from being bullying assholes before is that we had no one weaker than us?

I think a lot of women have a chip on their shoulder from historical oppression, which is understandable, but they’re taking that chip and using it as an excuse to seize a moment where they can feel like they now have a little bit of power over people like they’ve never had before, yes, is that all women? Obviously not, but those people tend to be the loudest of the anti-trans movement.

It’s the same as a lot of gay men being misogynistic, because nothing makes insecure people feel better about themselves than being a part of something that brings other people down.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I think a lot of women have a chip on their shoulder from historical oppression, which is understandable, but they’re taking that chip and using it as an excuse to seize a moment where they can feel like they now have a little bit of power over people like they’ve never had before, yes, is that all women? Obviously not, but those people tend to be the loudest of the anti-trans movement.

It’s the same as a lot of gay men being misogynistic, because nothing makes insecure people feel better about themselves than being a part of something that brings other people down.

A chip on our shoulder, interesting phrase to use.

I can't understand how you can look at the issues that are raised -

fairness and safety in sport

Safety from predators who would use this (and have used this) as a way to get access to vulnerable women or women in vulnerable positions such as Prisons, Changing rooms, Bathrooms, Spas etc

and still say that it's just women abusing some new found power we have (disagree completely with this assessment btw) and not based on genuine and very real issues

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

A chip on our shoulder, interesting phrase to use.

I can't understand how you can look at the issues that are raised -

fairness and safety in sport

Safety from predators who would use this (and have used this) as a way to get access to vulnerable women or women in vulnerable positions such as Prisons, Changing rooms, Bathrooms, Spas etc

and still say that it's just women abusing some new found power we have (disagree completely with this assessment btw) and not based on genuine and very real issues

If you’re gonna disagree with things I’ve said, you should at least understand the things I’ve said first.

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen..

And also to your point of, ‘who’s being bullied’ people are losing jobs or support or whatever, violent crimes against trans people have quadrupled over the past couple of years, people are being physically attacked and often times killed, for who they are, so please, save some of your empathy for the people who are actually having harm done to them over this shall we.

[bots]

i'm not anti trans, i'm just protective of biological womens rights. I'm certainly not going to change that stance, that's for sure

[Niamh.]

And to add, who the **** is actually being "bullied" here? It's women who are the ones losing their jobs, being silenced on Social media from being pushed out (or attempted to be pushed out) of their own creations, just for speaking up about matters that absolutely concern us, our safety, fairness and our right to privacy. You have some nerve saying "the age old story" it is the age old story, the age old story of women being pushed around by men and told to shut up when we object

[user104658]

Are disingenuous hateful people quick to pick up a banner if they think they can use it as an excuse to say what they like? Yes, absolutely... I've seen enough gammon suddenly and bewildering declare themselves trans allies in order to attack women online to know that's the case. Those men do not give a stuff about trans people. They've found a loophole that allows them (they think) to be misogynistic so long as they "aim it at a TERF".

But yes it would be false to say that doesn't happen in any cause.

On the flipside though; are people going to deny that valid, genuine, open requests for discussion are disingenuous BRANDED "hatefulness" and "bullying", using the presence of a small number of hateful people to do so?

I'm not really sure how to address the "is there a need for a debate" question. On Tibb? In general? In general, the answer is an obvious and resounding "yes of course there is" and I don't even know how to start explaining why to someone who doesn't find that obvious. There is always need. Dogma is no one's friend.

On Tibb? Hmmm is there a "need", probably not, because there isn't a "need" for any debate (or any post at all) on Tibb. No one has ever been here because they needed to be. It's not really the point. So whether there's a need or not, it's going to happen anyway. Engagement is the choice.

[Elliot]

There’s a social and medical context to gender and sex. You would probably have to disclose your biological sex to your hospital so they can give you the relevant and most suited treatment. On the other hand, if you were a bartender and someone like, let’s say Kim Petras, walked into your bar, you would probably use she her.

[glib]

Originally Posted by Elliot

There’s a social and medical context to gender and sex. You would probably have to disclose your biological sex to your hospital so they can give you the relevant and most suited treatment. On the other hand, if you were a bartender and someone like, let’s say Kim Petras, walked into your bar, you would probably use she her.

Wouldn’t have a clue who she was if i did see her

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Elliot

There’s a social and medical context to gender and sex. You would probably have to disclose your biological sex to your hospital so they can give you the relevant and most suited treatment. On the other hand, if you were a bartender and someone like, let’s say Kim Petras, walked into your bar, you would probably use she her.

Well yeah, in a day to day context of course one "should" use preferred pronouns for transpeople. To do otherwise would just be rude, like giving unsolicited opinions about an ugly person's appearance.

But gender identity shouldn't trump sex. When it comes to sports, prisons, and other single sex spaces, gender identity shouldn't come into it.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Well yeah, in a day to day context of course one "should" use preferred pronouns for transpeople. To do otherwise would just be rude, like giving unsolicited opinions about an ugly person's appearance.

But gender identity shouldn't trump sex. When it comes to sports, prisons, and other single sex spaces, gender identity shouldn't come into it.

There would be no outcry or outrage or action taken against someone giving an opinion on an ugly person. There is nothing an ugly person could do about it, they just don't have the same privilege as a trans.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Alf

There would be no outcry or outrage or action taken against someone giving an opinion on an ugly person. There is nothing an ugly person could do about it, they just don't have the same privilege as a trans.

But there's also nothing a transwoman can do about actually being a man

[Cherie]

He made a great point about digging up bones in future, it’s going to be a nightmare to identity whether they are he/she or they