[JerseyWins]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I'm not. I'm responding to you contradicting your arguments for own clothes and against uniforms.

So, do you think we should allow own clothes because clothing doesn't affect them or their learning or are we against uniforms because "they're uncomfortable" enough to affect their learning? Although, if the uniform is the right size and fit there's no reason for it to not be comfortable.

So everyone is comfortable in every type of clothing? Every guy is comfortable wearing let's say a button up shirt & slacks and every girl is comfortable wearing a skirt? Ok boss

I think you guys should allow own clothes in school because that's the natural way of life yes

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So you're not making a psychological argument... until you are making one as Jimmy is more focussed?

I said it's not a big psychological argument where kids won't develop properly... it's a psychological argument (potentially in the minds of some students) but not as deep as you're saying it is.

EDIT: Enough to question why schools have uniforms? Sure I don't see why not when it doesn't help them learn more efficiently. It's only possible for them to learn less efficiently. Probable? No. But possible in certain cases.

[Marsh.]

Well, your comment would make sense if there was one "button up shirt" and one "skirt". There isn't.

"Natural way of life"

"It's not psychological" "It's a psychological argument" Which is it?

"It doesn't affect their learning" "It's only possible for them to learn less efficiently" Do you wanna try that one again? :/

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

To a kid, especially not in the right frame of mind, it could easily be

I thought this was a serious debate but you literally give no input to pro-uniforms or even responses to my actual argument... It's just literally "JENNIE needs to wear her jeans" and smartass comments like that. So I guess I'm done with my point

You expected serious responses to "Uniforms are unnatural and prevent children from expressing their individual unique and specialness". Ok.

And a kid not in the right frame of mind? The answer to that is the kid is revolting because they're "not in the right frame of mind" not because she's wearing the same clothes as the other girls in her class.

[user104658]

I mean no one is really willing to address the fact that the same thing still happens anyway; some people have quality uniforms (good cut, good fit, good fabric) and others have primary tat that rips up the arse the first time they bend down to pick up a pencil . Plus nicer coats, bags, shoes... You can still tell who the poorer kids are. It was that way at both of my schools and its still the same at my daughter's primary school.

I mean on balance I'm actually FOR uniforms... I think it's a better aesthetic for a school... Though I don't think it's of huge importance and I don't think it has much impact on bullying at all and honestly if anything I think kids are more likely to be bullied for a scruffy / too small uniform than for wearing cheap casual clothes.

[Morgan.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean no one is really willing to address the fact that the same thing still happens anyway; some people have quality uniforms (good cut, good fit, good fabric) and others have primary tat that rips up the arse the first time they bend down to pick up a pencil . Plus nicer coats, bags, shoes... You can still tell who the poorer kids are. It was that way at both of my schools and its still the same at my daughter's primary school.

I mean on balance I'm actually FOR uniforms... I think it's a better aesthetic for a school... Though I don't think it's of huge importance and I don't think it has much impact on bullying at all and honestly if anything I think kids are more likely to be bullied for a scruffy / too small uniform than for wearing cheap casual clothes.

Agree with almost everything here

[Crimson Dynamo]

Of course its a good idea

better for parents, better for the school, better for cohesion and identitiy and it stops children wasting money by being hoodwinked by marketing any more than they get at weekends.

I agree its still easy to spot the poorer kids but its not meant to totally cloak "wealth" its to try and stop children flaunting it through ignorant parents (they ones who live in a 3 bed semi but drive a compact Range Rover on £550 finance a month and can barely pay their gas bill, or drive a small BMW even though its unreliable, sh1t in snow and expensive to run). Its to stop childrn having to !"worry" about what they wear everyday and obsess about "what others think of them" and fitting in with the popular tribe etc etc

School is to learn about things you can use all through your life and its not about being popular and children have to be protected from themselves until finally the penny drops (in their late 20s!)

[Nicky91]

against

they look so ugly and uncomfortable

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

against

they look so ugly and uncomfortable

do you even understand why they were introduced?

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

do you even understand why they were introduced?

no and i don't need to know

[Niamh.]

For, although I had a massive issue with girls having to wear skirts when I was at school, got into alot of arguments with teachers about it. My own daughter has a choice and surprise surprise about 99% of the girls at her school chose to wear trousers ........

So yeah i think it saves time in the mornings and makes life easier in general for parents and students

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

no and i don't need to know

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

against

they look so ugly and uncomfortable

Originally Posted by Nicky91

no and i don't need to know

[bots]

I am personally all for school uniforms ...... on young ladies over the age of 18

[SherzyK]

Leave Jersey alone

[JerseyWins]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well, your comment would make sense if there was one "button up shirt" and one "skirt". There isn't.

"Natural way of life"

"It's not psychological" "It's a psychological argument" Which is it?

"It doesn't affect their learning" "It's only possible for them to learn less efficiently" Do you wanna try that one again? :/

Do you nitpick at what I say to try to look for contradictions while not even quoting the next few words that answer your questions?

- There are restrictions and guidelines on the shirt/skirt/etc. Some might be more lenient though which is not that bad then but they’re not all like that.

- It’s not a huge psychological argument that will affect a kid’s growth but there are some underlying, potential psychological elements to it.

- It doesn’t affect their learning positively. It can only in some rare cases affect them negatively. Can’t say the same thing for pro-uniforms.

I already specified all this in previous posts but hopefully that’s more clear as I try not to keep repeating myself and think it’d be obvious what I mean.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You expected serious responses to "Uniforms are unnatural and prevent children from expressing their individual unique and specialness". Ok.

And a kid not in the right frame of mind? The answer to that is the kid is revolting because they're "not in the right frame of mind" not because she's wearing the same clothes as the other girls in her class.

And giving them uniforms is an easy way to give them something to revolt to... and for what? Little to no reason

You say my argument is ridiculous but the Big Pro-Uniforms argument that it prevents bullying isn’t? Why not stop the bullying head-on rather than putting a bandaid on a broken finger by giving them uniforms? As if that’s a difference maker that they can’t just as easily get picked on for & rub some of the more troubled students the wrong way for little to no reason.

[Marsh.]

You saying it affects them psychologically doesn't make it a fact.

If uniforms is an "easy" thing for a troublemaker to revolt against so is the fact that school is compulsory, that they can't talk in class, can't use their phone, can only eat at designated break times. You could literally use that argument against anything and everything that isn't letting the kids do whatever they want whenever they want. That isn't life I'm afraid.

I haven't mentioned bullying.

[RileyH]

jersey clocked

[RileyH]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

no and i don't need to know

nnn

[Withano]

For, definitely. But the schools with optional accessories know where it’s at (shirt/polo, jumper/hoody/blazer, shorts/skirts/trousers, even know a school with an optional baseball-style cap). A uniform shouldn’t mean everybody dresses the same imo.

[JerseyWins]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You saying it affects them psychologically doesn't make it a fact.

If uniforms is an "easy" thing for a troublemaker to revolt against so is the fact that school is compulsory, that they can't talk in class, can't use their phone, can only eat at designated break times. You could literally use that argument against anything and everything that isn't letting the kids do whatever they want whenever they want. That isn't life I'm afraid.

I haven't mentioned bullying.

All of those things prevent learning efficiently though? I’m all for rules that give the students a better education. Like come on Marsh, this is like the 5th time at least that you’ve made some bogus argument against like, one specific word or part in my post (like “psychological”) without simply using context clues in the point being made and thinking a little bit critically. You’ve yet to make a point FOR uniforms either so how does your point even hold any weight? Fear of contradiction which you seem to be obsessed over? Because many reasons for pro-uniforms are very contradictory to what you’re arguing against here... I’m just waiting to see if you have a point that I can respond more properly to It’s a bit of a psychological area either way you look at it, key word on bit not the silly exaggerations you’re making, but whether it’s actually a benefit or detriment is what should be considered more and why and if it’s actually necessary in the end. I think pointless or potential detriment more than it ever benefits. From a school perspective I see a lot more why it could benefit them than actual benefits from the students.

And just once more, I said it wasn’t this big psychological uproar you’re making it out to be. It could have some minor psychological impact on kids, good or bad, but I disagree with the points of it being good. Again, I personally think it can only negatively impact a student in class / at school.

At least someone like LT and a few others actually made some points even if I mostly disagree. The whole “unity” thing is imo a very basic (yeah I’m using that word again), rudimentary way of thinking. Like it’s a cute way to think but not actually very effective for obvious reasons (TS got into it a bit & I did a little bit already). They can and should become united while dressing freely, that’s how the world works. When I’m out of work I might get into LT’s other points as well.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

All of those things prevent learning efficiently though? I’m all for rules that give the students a better education. Like come on Marsh, this is like the 5th time at least that you’ve made some bogus argument against like, one specific word or part in my post (like “psychological”) without simply using context clues in the point being made and thinking a little bit critically. You’ve yet to make a point FOR uniforms either so how does your point even hold any weight? Fear of contradiction which you seem to be obsessed over? Because many reasons for pro-uniforms are very contradictory to what you’re arguing against here... I’m just waiting to see if you have a point that I can respond more properly to It’s a bit of a psychological area either way you look at it, key word on bit not the silly exaggerations you’re making, but whether it’s actually a benefit or detriment is what should be considered more and why and if it’s actually necessary in the end. I think pointless or potential detriment more than it ever benefits. From a school perspective I see a lot more why it could benefit them than actual benefits from the students.

And just once more, I said it wasn’t this big psychological uproar you’re making it out to be. It could have some minor psychological impact on kids, good or bad, but I disagree with the points of it being good. Again, I personally think it can only negatively impact a student in class / at school.

At least someone like LT and a few others actually made some points even if I mostly disagree. The whole “unity” thing is imo a very basic (yeah I’m using that word again), rudimentary way of thinking. Like it’s a cute way to think but not actually very effective for obvious reasons (TS got into it a bit & I did a little bit already). They can and should become united while dressing freely, that’s how the world works. When I’m out of work I might get into LT’s other points as well.

I've said why I support them. Using other people's opinions to try and contradict mine doesn't change you contradicting yourself.

You've tied yourself up in knots and continue to do so. "It's not psychological... it's a bit of a psychological area". Good grief.

Great, you're loving LT's work, great. Has zero to do with me sunshine.

[JerseyWins]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I've said why I support them. Using other people's opinions to try and contradict mine doesn't change you contradicting yourself.

You've tied yourself up in knots and continue to do so. "It's not psychological... it's a bit of a psychological area". Good grief.

Great, you're loving LT's work, great. Has zero to do with me sunshine.

Dude you're literally spinning in circles over reading one word in a sentence, not understanding what I meant by it, and just repeating it over and over even after I thought I cleared it up. You've done this with multiple points. Wording over full context of the point being made.

Use context clues... this is what I said when you thought I meant this isn't psychological at all, I wasn't saying it wasn't at all:

"I'm not making some big psychological argument where the kids won't develop properly" There are different levels to how things will effect people/kids psychologically, it's not all black and white like you're saying and that's why you think I'm contradicting my argument. So because I'm saying there can be some little psychological elements to it (on both sides of the argument tbh), it's a BIG DEAL and means I'm calling it a major psychological issue? There can be major and/or minor psychological arguments to be made on a situation. But if you're still stuck on that then idk

It's obviously psychological, pro-uniforms is a psychological thing, anti-uniforms is a psychological thing.. but is it a serious psychological case that's going to stump a child's mental growth or something serious like that like you're exaggerating? I don't think so... maybe it can be for certain kids? But my points are a LOT more simpler than that on a grander scheme. It may have been worded poorly but I always said it IS psychological, just not the over-dramatics you keep saying it is.

EDIT: Another quote in response to your record-playing: "- It’s not a huge psychological argument that will affect a kid’s growth but there are some underlying, potential psychological elements to it." Is it that hard to understand this is what I meant ???

And what are your points for pro-uniforms then? You've asked me a ton of questions and I'm answering. I've asked you this countless times now and you don't give a simple breakdown or anything.

[JerseyWins]

Even if you want to say I contradicted myself... like... do you understand it now then after I explain what I actually mean by what I said?

[JerseyWins]

Ok looking through other posts in the thread...

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean no one is really willing to address the fact that the same thing still happens anyway; some people have quality uniforms (good cut, good fit, good fabric) and others have primary tat that rips up the arse the first time they bend down to pick up a pencil . Plus nicer coats, bags, shoes... You can still tell who the poorer kids are. It was that way at both of my schools and its still the same at my daughter's primary school.

I mean on balance I'm actually FOR uniforms... I think it's a better aesthetic for a school... Though I don't think it's of huge importance and I don't think it has much impact on bullying at all and honestly if anything I think kids are more likely to be bullied for a scruffy / too small uniform than for wearing cheap casual clothes.

I addressed these things in one of my first few posts in this thread before the paragraphs of back and forth rambling

But great all-around post Toy Soldier

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Of course its a good idea

better for parents, better for the school, better for cohesion and identitiy and it stops children wasting money by being hoodwinked by marketing any more than they get at weekends.

I agree its still easy to spot the poorer kids but its not meant to totally cloak "wealth" its to try and stop children flaunting it through ignorant parents (they ones who live in a 3 bed semi but drive a compact Range Rover on £550 finance a month and can barely pay their gas bill, or drive a small BMW even though its unreliable, sh1t in snow and expensive to run). Its to stop childrn having to !"worry" about what they wear everyday and obsess about "what others think of them" and fitting in with the popular tribe etc etc

School is to learn about things you can use all through your life and its not about being popular and children have to be protected from themselves until finally the penny drops (in their late 20s!)

Actually I think these are all pretty fair arguments but it's more for the parents than the schools to teach upon their kids. So if some kids are going to be materialistic and flaunt what they have, other kids should be sheltered from this during school hours and limited in one of the ways they can express themselves in their own way? Whether fitting in or taking a stand on something, this is all part of growing up for kids. Uniforms aren't going to limit the cliques, and the worries, and the bullying etc... these things will happen all the time in schools with uniforms as well. I don't think it can be hidden from children whether it's 6 hours in a day with their peers or throughout the entire day. It's not something uniforms fix IMO. And it's just not of importance for a kid's education so why are schools essentially censoring them during school hours? They should be free & casual, or whatever they'd like, with what they wear to go learn.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

For, although I had a massive issue with girls having to wear skirts when I was at school, got into alot of arguments with teachers about it. My own daughter has a choice and surprise surprise about 99% of the girls at her school chose to wear trousers ........

So yeah i think it saves time in the mornings and makes life easier in general for parents and students

That's good, I don't mind it as much if there's some choice so that the kids don't feel uncomfortable or forced into wearing something There's some more decision making there for what they like and want to wear while learning.

I personally think the saving time argument is an exaggeration though tbh. It should in most cases save maybe 5 minutes or less per morning to not have to pick out an outfit... and if the uniforms are delayed / mis-scheduled in the wash or misplaced somewhere then that's going to actually take a lot of extra time.

I do think it's a pretty good thing for parents though as they'd likely be saving some money on kids' outfits (assuming the prices to get a uniform are reasonable which I believe they are mostly pretty affordable).

[Marsh.]

Jersey: It's not serious...

Also Jersey:

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

Dude you're literally spinning in circles over reading one word in a sentence, not understanding what I meant by it, and just repeating it over and over even after I thought I cleared it up. You've done this with multiple points. Wording over full context of the point being made.

Use context clues... this is what I said when you thought I meant this isn't psychological at all, I wasn't saying it wasn't at all:

"I'm not making some big psychological argument where the kids won't develop properly" There are different levels to how things will effect people/kids psychologically, it's not all black and white like you're saying and that's why you think I'm contradicting my argument. So because I'm saying there can be some little psychological elements to it (on both sides of the argument tbh), it's a BIG DEAL and means I'm calling it a major psychological issue? There can be major and/or minor psychological arguments to be made on a situation. But if you're still stuck on that then idk

It's obviously psychological, pro-uniforms is a psychological thing, anti-uniforms is a psychological thing.. but is it a serious psychological case that's going to stump a child's mental growth or something serious like that like you're exaggerating? I don't think so... maybe it can be for certain kids? But my points are a LOT more simpler than that on a grander scheme. It may have been worded poorly but I always said it IS psychological, just not the over-dramatics you keep saying it is.

EDIT: Another quote in response to your record-playing: "- It’s not a huge psychological argument that will affect a kid’s growth but there are some underlying, potential psychological elements to it." Is it that hard to understand this is what I meant ???

And what are your points for pro-uniforms then? You've asked me a ton of questions and I'm answering. I've asked you this countless times now and you don't give a simple breakdown or anything.

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

Even if you want to say I contradicted myself... like... do you understand it now then after I explain what I actually mean by what I said?

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

Ok looking through other posts in the thread...


I addressed these things in one of my first few posts in this thread before the paragraphs of back and forth rambling

But great all-around post Toy Soldier


Actually I think these are all pretty fair arguments but it's more for the parents than the schools to teach upon their kids. So if some kids are going to be materialistic and flaunt what they have, other kids should be sheltered from this during school hours and limited in one of the ways they can express themselves in their own way? Whether fitting in or taking a stand on something, this is all part of growing up for kids. Uniforms aren't going to limit the cliques, and the worries, and the bullying etc... these things will happen all the time in schools with uniforms as well. I don't think it can be hidden from children whether it's 6 hours in a day with their peers or throughout the entire day. It's not something uniforms fix IMO. And it's just not of importance for a kid's education so why are schools essentially censoring them during school hours? They should be free & casual, or whatever they'd like, with what they wear to go learn.


That's good, I don't mind it as much if there's some choice so that the kids don't feel uncomfortable or forced into wearing something There's some more decision making there for what they like and want to wear while learning.

I personally think the saving time argument is an exaggeration though tbh. It should in most cases save maybe 5 minutes or less per morning to not have to pick out an outfit... and if the uniforms are delayed / mis-scheduled in the wash or misplaced somewhere then that's going to actually take a lot of extra time.

I do think it's a pretty good thing for parents though as they'd likely be saving some money on kids' outfits (assuming the prices to get a uniform are reasonable which I believe they are mostly pretty affordable).