[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

I've said this before too though less gently and been accused of transphobia and sexism. But it's basically men telling women what think and feel.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I've said this before too though less gently and been accused of transphobia and sexism. But it's basically men telling women what think and feel.

It is indeed - in part because they don’t and can’t understand, but some fail to understand that apparently - and in part because others don’t want to understand - and although will protest they support female equality - actions suggest that actually maybe they don’t. Maybe there is something in their sub-conscious that is still resisting as giving up that top-dog position has its drawbacks.

[Northern Monkey]

Can’t see where it was transphobic.Women don’t want people with penises(otherwise known as men) in their changing rooms.Just as men don’t want women in their changing rooms.That seems to be what she said.Nothing about post-op transexuals.

[Candy Annie Cane]

I don't see fixation as such. I see people with firm opinions on both sides. I can't honestly see either side changing their views but I wouldn't class it as fixated.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I don't see fixation as such. I see people with firm opinions on both sides. I can't honestly see either side changing their views but I wouldn't class it as fixated.

For an issue that's as old as the hills, it seems to be coming up an awful lot, doesn't it? It's the new "immigrants / Brexit". I felt quite nostalgic when a good old fashioned immigrants thread resurfaced today.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For an issue that's as old as the hills, it seems to be coming up an awful lot, doesn't it? It's the new "immigrants / Brexit". I felt quite nostalgic when a good old fashioned immigrants thread resurfaced today.

You created the issue... you suggested in a thread that there was a problem with opinions being 'vitriolic' and then started another thread to explore that further :/

[user104658]

Also, I didn't say that anyone was "pretending their opinion", I said I'm interested in knowing what actually lies behind those opinions, because (for me) a lot of it doesn't quite add up .

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Also, I didn't say that anyone was "pretending their opinion", I said I'm interested in knowing what actually lies behind those opinions, because (for me) a lot of it doesn't quite add up .

What's your theory columbo?..

[Marsh.]

Nothing better to help your cause about women's rights, feminism and sexism than a bit of sexism thrown at men. Never change TiBB.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Nothing better to help your cause about women's rights, feminism and sexism than a bit of sexism thrown at men. Never change TiBB.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No, Kizzy, when you're sexist, you're sexist regardless of the attitude behind it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

No, Kizzy, when you're sexist, you're sexist regardless of the attitude behind it.

Am I a sexist, What drove you to that conclusion?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Am I a sexist, What drove you to that conclusion?

Kizzy, you constantly bring up the fact a member is a man and use that to disparage their contributions to the thread on a frequent basis.

You could be quoted by a female member and a male member with the exact same question or response and you'd automatically accuse the male member of "mansplaining" or of daring to tell a woman how she should think.

It's ridiculous.

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Maru

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

Free will?! hahaha there's no such thing here, collective will is the cultural norm the majority will prevails.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Maru

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

It's always the same moral accusations from the same people. Whatever the discussion.

[Marsh.]

Free will to you is having an opinion that is above being questioned or debated by someone else? Because sharing your opinion on a public forum is pointless if you take this stance at someone daring to pick out what they see as holes in your argument.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Free will to you is having an opinion that is above being questioned or debated by someone else? Because sharing your opinion on a public forum is pointless if you take this stance at someone daring to pick out what they see as holes in your argument.

Nobody has picked out anything, and you can't mean TS as he doesn't even have an argument :/

[Vicky.]

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy

Don't be daft Vicky, everything's about Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Don't be daft Vicky, everything's about Kizzy.

Not everything....Most things.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

I can't say I've seen any cock dick posts, can you link examples?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

By me?

Lily Madigan is not a genuine transsexual. Lily Madigan is a misogynistic knobjockey who has done nothing since gaining his post as 'womans officer' except for actively trying to get women kicked out of the party for acknowledging ****ing biology. If this is what thats about. Yes my thread about him was literred with boy and such, as thats what he is. I actually half think he is a Tory plant, there to destroy the Labour party from the inside.

The weightlifting cheat, I called he yes. I have no idea if he actually has sex dysphoria, however I kind of doubt it and even if he does, its clearly cheating to be competing against female people as a male. I have a lot of contempt for people like that, and its silly to deny he is male. I reckon the commonwelath games will wake a LOT of people up to the crazyness of this actually.

I called Lauren Harries male the other day yes, but the context is a bit important I reckon. I also used she and her for her...but it is undeniable that she is male. Male is a biological term and sex changes are not possible.

If I am being completely honest here, even post SRS transsexual people I still do not generally see as the sex they are trying to be. Because..they aren't. I acknowledge that their dysphoria made them wish to have hormones, or surgery to resemble the opposite sex more and I think it must be horrific tbh to be so at odds with your sexed body that you would need to go to such lengths to feel better about yourself but I feel that way about people with BDD, and to a lesser extent anorexia too.However, when it comes to single sex spaces, no issue with post SRS people using the areas they chose.

Self-ID is the main issue. But I also have issues with a lot of transactivists and their behaviour (and their threats towards me and my children) and much of trans ideology itself actually. I think the whole thing is homophobic and sexist (towards both men and women!). I have issues with certain people who claim they are trans. I have huge issues with giving puberty blockers to children, and the few doctors who prescribe hormones or do irreversible surgeries on under 18s. I have huge issues with trans pressure groups such as mermaids going into primary schools to tell children that you can change the sex you are and that if you follow the incorrect stereotypes you may be trans, and basically teaching antiscience nonsense. I have issues with stonewall lumping in transsexuals with fetishists and such, and feel that a lot of the problems today are coming from that decision (which they appear to stand by). I have issues with the whole disgusting concept of the 'cotton ceiling' and how prevalent it is in the trans community, I think its lesbophobic and just vile and rapey. I have issues with the many people who attempt to shame women into ignoring their concerns on this topic by yelling transphobe or bigot or 'terf' at them. I think thats a comprehensive list of all my problems with this, but I may have missed something out. But on the whole, I have no issue with actual transsexual people. But if having issues with the things I list above makes me transphobic, so be it tbh.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

I really do not see what this has to do with anything at all. I DON'T believe in biological gender really. I mean few things like hormone levels making women tend to be more caring and such, yes. Thats tied into biological sex too though... But generally 'gender' is mainly socially imposed stereotypes. And to believe the 'a man can be born in a womans body' or whatever does require a belief in gendered souls really. Which I don't buy at all. But have always been open to actual proof to show the opposite.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

So basically you are doing what you accuse others of - and dancing around what you really mean that you think people are being transphobic.