[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Completely agree. Well said.

There is a double standard.

It actually isn't double standards at all though. Can white people comment on race issues? yes Can white people say they know how it feels to be discriminated against like a black person does? No. No one is telling men they can't have an opinion on this, what's being said is you can't tell women that what they feel isn't real and is masking something else (their inner transphobia) well you can tell us that if you want but don't be surprised when we disagree with you

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It actually isn't double standards at all though. Can white people comment on race issues? yes Can white people say they know how it feels to be discriminated against like a black person does? No. No one is telling men they can't have an opinion on this, what's being said is you can't tell women that what they feel isn't real and is masking something else (their inner transphobia) well you can tell us that if you want but don't be surprised when we disagree with you

We have to be very careful though how we frame our premises though. "Like a black person"... that's loaded actually, because it assumes all black folk share the same experiences. If we lump all ___ folk together, then it's very easy to lump all folk that fit certain categories together and generalize... which leads to premises like this... (don't worry, it's super short)

Youtube video

I don't experience the same things as other women for example without going into detail into my background. Much less white folk, as I was raised in a 99% minority area despite being white. My family breaks a fook ton of stereotypes in other ways too... which is why I prefer to see folk as individuals, not as being representative of entire groups. It exacerbates and enables racism and other anti-isms when we enable these fallacies...

I think TS--(referring back to the what is feminism thread)--he kind of got roped into a discussion about everything that is wrong with men... as if all men as a group are acting as a whole... I think when we are talking about activism and how to change the status quo, we should be targeting the culture, which is the more likely culprit... folk are obviously only referencing their personal experiences when talking about their views, they can't speak for any group... but we can all talk about how the culture effects us, man or woman. And I'd argue TS/men in general have to have a say if the culture in the end generally impacts all of us... so to speak.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Maru

I think TS--(referring back to the what is feminism thread)--he kind of got roped into a discussion about everything that is wrong with men... as if all men as a group are acting as a whole... I think when we are talking about activism and how to change the status quo, we should be targeting the culture, which is the more likely culprit... folk are obviously only referencing their personal experiences when talking about their views, they can't speak for any group... but we can all talk about how the culture effects us, man or woman. And I'd argue TS/men in general have to have a say if the culture in the end generally impacts all of us... so to speak.

No he didn't get roped into anything... He began the discussion, and the discussion never was 'what is wrong with men' ...it never was :/

Nobody anywhere has said he can't have a say!

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It actually isn't double standards at all though. Can white people comment on race issues? yes Can white people say they know how it feels to be discriminated against like a black person does? No. No one is telling men they can't have an opinion on this, what's being said is you can't tell women that what they feel isn't real and is masking something else (their inner transphobia) well you can tell us that if you want but don't be surprised when we disagree with you

Oh well that's separate then If his issue is with being told he can't speak for someone else and know their feelings.

I do think this double standard exists and is rife on the forum.

But as TS himself says, it's not so much the intention (no. Men can't know what it's like to be a woman anymore than women know what it's like to be male) but the way in which it's used as though to shut down an opinion.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Oh well that's separate then If his issue is with being told he can't speak for someone else and know their feelings.

I do think this double standard exists and is rife on the forum.

But as TS himself says, it's not so much the intention (no. Men can't know what it's like to be a woman anymore than women know what it's like to be male) but the way in which it's used as though to shut down an opinion.

In this context where was that?...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Completely agree. Well said.

There is a double standard.

Bull. Sounds more like male ego to me.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Bull. Sounds more like male ego to me.

Sounds like PMS to me.

[Vicky.]

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

I don't think theres an element of overreaction at all. Obviously.

Of course there may well be. But I really don't think so.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think theres an element of overreaction at all. Obviously.

Of course there may well be. But I really don't think so.

Do you have to agree with an opinion in order for it to be valid?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do you have to agree with an opinion in order for it to be valid?

No?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

Patronising much?


If you want to see over reacting read the comments section of a Jordan Peterson vid.

[Vicky.]

I just cannot imagine women telling blokes they were bigoted for discussing an issue that will affect them in a negative way. And thats basically what you are saying here, that women are pretending this will be a problem in order to hide their transphobia.

Its not transphobia. Its doing what we have been taught to do. Minimizing the risk to ourselves from male people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I just cannot imagine women telling blokes they were bigoted for discussing an issue that will affect them in a negative way. And thats basically what you are saying here, that women are pretending this will be a problem in order to hide their transphobia..

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

What language TS , as bearing in mind your mention of me and Muslims in a previous post, I am getting the feeling you may be talking about me!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

The language being, men boys, dick and so on?

People have their own personal style of posting. Some posters, like ammi and jack for example, will always make an attempt to say they have looked at both sides, will always put points across in a softer kind of way. Others such as myself and brillo are more blunt and to the point.

My language is my language tbh, and my posting style is my posting style. I am still not really getting how using boy and man about a boy or a man is transphobic language

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

And you have been asked many many times to defend your narrative...

Where is the transphobic language? What is it?

I see you 'see' dick, dick,cock, cock everywhere ... but I can't, show me!

(don't be cheap NIAMH)

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you have been asked many many times to defend your narrative...

Where is the transphobic language? What is it?

I see you 'see' dick, dick,cock, cock everywhere ... but I can't, show me!

(don't be cheap LT)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

[Jack_]

The thing for me is, and the reason why I now make a conscious decision to not partake in these debates - is because they're conducted in a really hostile and exclusionary environment. I personally think it's less about your posts Vicky, and more those who agree with you. We went through a stage years ago where people who dared to have some left-field opinions were being belittled and patronised, and I stopped enjoying and contributing to these kind of threads. Then things got better for a time, and we were able to have a more civilised and productive discourse. But now if anything it's WORSE than it was years ago.

Look, I totally, TOTALLY understand why some women feel the way they do about these issues. And I also totally acknowledge and recognise my privilege as a man (and have explicitly done so before when I've decided to partake, or in similar threads - like the feminism one). This is a really emotive, contemporary issue for people on both sides of the argument - it strikes at the core of people's very being and their legitimacy - and that's why I wasn't surprised when the discussion a few days ago ended up heading in a very sour and reactionary direction.

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is my favourite topic in the world, I spent a year of my life writing and researching about it. I LOVE talking about this, and have done so with female friends. But that's partly why I don't feel comfortable contributing anymore, because I too have a (completely different, granted) personal stake in it. And when you're too emotionally involved, it is very easy to feel personally slighted by the hostile environment these discussions are now conducted in. I just wish we could have these debates in a more fleshed out, academic, civilised manner...with less of the sniping, the baiting, the sarcasm, the exclusion, the inflammatory language, and the like.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content. .

.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.





.

My post was in relation to your comment implying that we're all a bunch of transphobes pretending we're worried about womens rights though.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is the opposite of what I want. Serious debates would cease to exist at all (which may or may not be a good thing..hmm) if only people who agreed with the OP were allowed to post in that topic

I don't think only female opinions matter either. Its useful to get opinions from everyone, regardless of their sex.

What I disagree with completely, is people trying to shut down the conversation by crying bigot at anyone with the 'wrong' (in their opinion) view. Or, as it seems is happening in this thread, trying to police other peoples language. Of course slurs and such should not be tolerated, but to try and make out that saying a male person is male is so horrendously offensive, well, thats another way of just trying the 'bigot' yell isn't it.

I don't agree when other posters have said that only female opinions matter. Of course men should be able to post too. But what I totally disagree with is when (and this is usually the way it goes down on here) men come in, and try to dismiss womens valid concerns. Or say that women are transphobic. As has happened on many of these threads, and it always does seem to be a male poster doing it, maybe thats just an unfortunate coincidence. I think men should take a bit more time to actually think about WHY women are so concerned about this, why women are so scared of random men. And then try to work out if their concerns really are OTT or if for some reason or other they are trying to minimize the very real threat that most women face in every day of their lives.

I actually think in this debate, that male opinions will be what changes the direction of it all. Once more men start to stand up and say 'no', it will all end. Which is part of the reason behind the recent manfriday campaign stuff...where women are 'self identifying' as men and entering male only swimming sessions and such, in reaction to men doing this to women. Once men are inconvenienced, it will all change I reckon. Just most men are not interested as it will never really affect them. Even with women taking over THEIR spaces in the way that men are colonizing womens spaces (and especially lesbian spaces) there is not the safety element, men will not be unsafe by women being there, in the way women would be with a random man.

In all honesty, if selfID keeps steamrollering its way into businesses and law, I will start using the male areas I think. Because the kind of man who would force his way into female areas with no thought at all for how that makes the women feel, is exactly the kind of man I do not want near me in states of undress. I reckon the male areas would be safer for me, as most of the pervs and voyeurs will be in the womens. And I sure as hell feel safer around even 100 normal men than I would feel in an enclosed space with one predator. Attacks in the male areas would be uncommon also as...most men are not predators and a predator would definitely think twice about attacking in an area thats mainly populated by blokes. Most men are against sexual assault/rape/voyeurism etc.

This of course does not solve the issue of refuges and prisons though, which I do feel are the most important in this debate. Especially given we currently have male rapists in female prisons, and that 50% of those identifying as trans are actually there for sex offenses (way above the average among men). But thats not surprising at all given transvestites are now classed as trans. And as I said before, transvestism is one of the most common paraphilia among s ex offenders. So it stands to reason that if transvestites are classed as trans, there will be a hell of a lot of 'trans' sex offenders.