[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by sassysocks

Pure conjecture full of what, ifs and buts. Islam is a problem now which is what we need to focus on, not what others might do one day.

I realise this but I was only illustrating a point. I am not saying that the issue doesn't need to be tackled here and now. Religion is a problem that would be much more easily focussed on by realising what it is and appropriately lumping it into one category to be tackled instead of endlessly splitting hairs over which ones are "good", and which ones are "bad", and which branches of each are better than the others, and which are the best churches within those branches, and ... only for the same issues to arise again in a few generations under a different banner. If EVERYONE would just stop arguing over whose unicorns are the fastest, we'd be more than half way there.

The only really important part of my previous post is this:

"People with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things."

Islam / Christianity / whatever .

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I ..."People with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things."

Islam / Christianity / whatever .

People with no religious beliefs are also prone to do irrational things, so...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

People with no religious beliefs are also prone to do irrational things, so...

Not all irrational belief systems are religious. Does it then follow that religious belief systems are not irrational? I don't think so, personally.

I certainly don't think that religion is the root of all of the world's problems or that there would never again be any senseless massacre without religion... but I think it would certainly be a start.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Coming from a religion that has as chequered a past as Christianity does I'm rather surprised you have the cheek to point the finger at another, regardless of how hard it tries to rack up a higher kill count than yours did.

I think youre mistaking Christians for the monarchy

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not all irrational belief systems are religious. Does it then follow that religious belief systems are not irrational? I don't think so, personally.

I certainly don't think that religion is the root of all of the world's problems or that there would never again be any senseless massacre without religion... but I think it would certainly be a start.

start of what? are you planning to destroy all of the tens of thousands of Christian based laws than are the bedrock of western civilization too? what exactly was it that Christ said that you hate so much?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

IS this a serious post? I see who its coming from and its contents so cant take it seriously.

is that a serious reply? wow how fickle

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

start of what? are you planning to destroy all of the tens of thousands of Christian based laws than are the bedrock of western civilization too? what exactly was it that Christ said that you hate so much?

Me personally? No. I would say that just because a lot of law is based on a Christian background, is no reason to continue with the religion. A lot of moral philosophy, including many Christian tales and values, have roots in older mythology such as the Greek and Roman Gods. Do we have to continue to worship those, too?

He hasn't said anything that I particularly "hate", it's just that... None of the supernatural stuff in the Bible is actually true, Jesus wasn't the son of (or a human avatar of) a supreme being (God) because it's highly unlikely that such a being even exists. For a third time: strong, irrational belief can be warped and twisted to nefarious purpose. The specifics of the belief do not matter. The problem is the mindset that is able to believe it, and the level of control that can be taken by figures who wish to exploit it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not all irrational belief systems are religious. Does it then follow that religious belief systems are not irrational? I don't think so, personally.

I certainly don't think that religion is the root of all of the world's problems or that there would never again be any senseless massacre without religion... but I think it would certainly be a start.

Some people are good, some people are bad. That's the bottom line. Most people are not extremists, most people don't want to kill other people because they don't share their beliefs. It's an infinitesimally small percentage, just like it's an infinitesimally small percentage of non-religious people who are violent psychopaths. For every act of violence carried out by religious people, there will be at least one and probably many more acts of kindness and compassion. So I don't agree that by having no religion the world would be a better place. All you'd be doing is taking away people's legitimate right to worship in their own way because you yourself have no faith.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

Some people are good, some people are bad. That's the bottom line. Most people are not extremists, most people don't want to kill other people because they don't share their beliefs. It's an infinitesimally small percentage, just like it's an infinitesimally small percentage of non-religious people who are violent psychopaths. For every act of violence carried out by religious people, there will be at least one and probably many more acts of kindness and compassion. So I don't agree that by having no religion the world would be a better place. All you'd be doing is taking away people's legitimate right to worship in their own way because you yourself have no faith.

I have said quite a few times that I wouldn't see anyone forcibly stopped from believing whatever they want to believe. You can't "force" people not to believe in something, anyway. I just keep hoping that one day everyone will wake up and say, "Why did we ever believe in something like that?? lol..."

I doubt that will actually happen. I think religion MIGHT eventually fade into relative obscurity... But it will sadly be a long after we're gone. So I won't even get to say "toljerso"

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have said quite a few times that I wouldn't see anyone forcibly stopped from believing whatever they want to believe. You can't "force" people not to believe in something, anyway. I just keep hoping that one day everyone will wake up and say, "Why did we ever believe in something like that?? lol..."

I doubt that will actually happen. I think religion MIGHT eventually fade into relative obscurity... But it will sadly be a long after we're gone. So I won't even get to say "toljerso"

I keep hoping that one day people with no faith accept that because they don't understand something doesn't mean it's foolish or bad. I don't think religion will die out, my own faith has been around for five thousand years through some pretty turbulent times to say the least. I think people will finally wake up and get to a point where they accept each other and keep their trunk out of other people's beliefs.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

I keep hoping that one day people with no faith accept that because they don't understand something doesn't mean it's foolish or bad. I don't think religion will die out, my own faith has been around for five thousand years through some pretty turbulent times to say the least. I think people will finally wake up and get to a point where they accept each other and keep their trunk out of other people's beliefs.

I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

You seem to tar all religions with the same brush. My religion doesn't recruit. I was never forced to do anything as a child instead I chose to got to school on Sundays to learn about my own religion and to study Hebrew. I am not alone. It seems hard for you to accept that people with religious beliefs aren't brainwashed just because you yourself don't understand it. I uphold your right to believe nothing and not be criticised. That surely should be a two-way street.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

You seem to tar all religions with the same brush. My religion doesn't recruit. I was never forced to do anything as a child instead I chose to got to school on Sundays to learn about my own religion and to study Hebrew. I am not alone. It seems hard for you to accept that people with religious beliefs aren't brainwashed just because you yourself don't understand it. I uphold your right to believe nothing and not be criticised. That surely should be a two-way street.

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"Come-on now Lt, you're on TiBB. Didn't you know that in the Big Book of Alternate Tibby Histories, the crusades and the Spanish inquisition didn't happen? They are just made up tales designed to discredit Jesus. Probably invented by Muslims. Obama is probably a covert Muslim. Why else would he ever say anything about Christianity that isn't entirely positive? I literally can't think of any reason. Get him waterboarded quick smart, he'll sell out his ISIS masters in no time, and we can get a proper Jesus loving president in place!"

Nowhere on this forum has any member ever claimed that “the crusades and the Spanish inquisition didn't happen”, and neither has anyone on here claimed that such historical events are;”just made up tales designed to discredit Jesus”, or claimed that the above were “Probably invented by Muslims”? Consequentially, therefore, TIBB members are not so poorly informed and ‘low-brow’ to believe in any fictitious “Big Book of Alternate Tibby Histories” and any statement which maintains otherwise is plainly ludicrous – yet, any non-TIBB member who is surfing the internet and encounters the above post and its totally non factual comments without further examination of this excellent forum, will be forgiven for believing that the general intellectual standard of its members is woefully low, when the polar opposite is true.

This is supposed to be a SERIOUS DEBATE thread where adult members maturely debate and discuss serious topics with truth, integrity and informed opinion. Politics, terrorism, and religion, are all very serious subjects which are currently creating increasingly widening schisms throughout the world, and spurious statements such as those above, unnecessarily cause offence and really have no place on a Serious Discussion thread – in my opinion.

If we are to debate this very serious issue, then it is imperative that we do not start from deliberately false premises and do not continue with confused misconceptions - as is clearly the case in the above post.

As for Barak Hussein Obama; the evidence that he is a Muslim in thought, word and deed, is preponderous, overwhelming, and irrefutable to any rational, impartial, and sane researcher.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

atheists are far louder about screaming their beliefs in public places and in drumming it into their kids.........often the atheists we hear are aggressive and mocking. it makes one think if they had their way and destroyed Christs words would their words really lead us to a better place?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

the specifics are all that's relevant your post is anti logic exactly what you accuse all religions of

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

People with no religious beliefs are also prone to do irrational things, so...

Where in the bible does it say that?...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

The highlighted bit is a bit of a wild, sweeping generalisation from someone who has no faith and doesn't understand what it means to have faith, so I understand that lumping all faiths together would make perfect sense to you.

Would I have gone to school to learn about Judaism if my parents weren't Jewish...? I take it your own parents weren't exactly church goers and that's where you've picked up your blinkered ideas about faith. For the record, I am culturally and ethnically Jewish.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Where in the bible does it say that?...

Just under where it says "People with irrational beliefs are prone to doing irrational things."

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

The highlighted bit is a bit of a wild, sweeping generalisation from someone who has no faith and doesn't understand what it means to have faith, so I understand that lumping all faiths together would make perfect sense to you.

Would I have gone to school to learn about Judaism if my parents weren't Jewish...? I take it your own parents weren't exactly church goers and that's where you've picked up your blinkered ideas about faith. For the record, I am culturally and ethnically Jewish.

You're right, I have no faith. I think I do understand what it means to have faith TO people who have faith... But perhaps it would be prudent to point out that to someone who doesn't have faith it means literally nothing?

Anyway, the second part is incorrect. My mum went to church regularly and my grandmother was a card-carrying God squadder. She was actual friends with the minister and he was constantly at her house - I'd have worried about them if I wasn't 99% certain that the minister was gay (not joking, very VERY camp man).

I also went to church and Sunday School until I was 7 or 8. In fact, if I remember correctly, I realised that God isn't real whilst actually sat at a table at Sunday school. I was doing some sort of maze involving Jesus. It was obscure.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're right, I have no faith. I think I do understand what it means to have faith TO people who have faith... But perhaps it would be prudent to point out that to someone who doesn't have faith it means literally nothing?

Anyway, the second part is incorrect. My mum went to church regularly and my grandmother was a card-carrying God squadder. She was actual friends with the minister and he was constantly at her house - I'd have worried about them if I wasn't 99% certain that the minister was gay (not joking, very VERY camp man).

I also went to church and Sunday School until I was 7 or 8. In fact, if I remember correctly, I realised that God isn't real whilst actually sat at a table at Sunday school. I was doing some sort of maze involving Jesus. It was obscure.

You didn't "realise" that God wasn't real. You came to that conclusion because you'd had a chance to find out about it for yourself. And that's fine... I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to assume there's something wrong with you because you don't believe.

It would be a fine thing if non-believers afforded people with faith the same courtesy.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

You didn't "realise" that God wasn't real. You came to that conclusion because you'd had a chance to find out about it for yourself. And that's fine... I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to assume there's something wrong with you because you don't believe.

It would be a fine thing if non-believers afforded people with faith the same courtesy.

I don't think there's something wrong with people because they believe. People believe whatever they believe for various reasons, by definition a belief isn't a choice.

I think there's something inherently wrong with religion itself.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

"People will always use religion to justify horrific acts, Obama's right to say that Christianity is no better or different to Islam."

First of all, Barack Hussein Obama being a Muslim would state that, but it is thinly disguised pro-Islamic propaganda and anti-Christian nonsense, because Christianity most definitely is a totally different religion to Islam.

What's more, Hussein Obama makes the same colossal error which you and others on this thread make, in being confused by just what Christianity is.

Christianity is a religion specifically based upon the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as attested in The New Testament, and Jesus Christ was a pacifist who taught Love, Understanding, Tolerance, Charity and advocated peace and forgiveness.

True Christians are those who put faith and trust in the New Testament and who believe in Jesus as ‘The Christ’ or Messiah, and who follow Christ’s teachings. Therefore true Christians who truly follow the teachings of Christ are also peace loving.

NOWHERE in the New Testament is there any incitement for followers to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers and I defy anyone on here to provide evidence to the contrary.

Even the violence within the Old Testament is solely bound by historical context and specific only to the era in which the text was written, as distinct from the open-ended commands throughout the Quran which compel faithful Muslims to to go out and maim, kill, or subjugate other races, creeds or non-believers. These commands are not era specific, and have no predetermined time limit, so are as relevant and applicable for faithful Muslims today as they were to faithful Muslims in Muhammad's time. Which explains the demonic atrocities still being perpetrated in Allah's name after 1500 years.

The above is only one difference between Islam and Christianity, but there are other very real differences, far too numerous to expound upon here.

As for "better than" - whether we are specifically comparing the religions themselves, or their followers interpretation of The New Testament with the Quran, there really is no comparison, because the former is a religion based upon love, peace and tolerance, and the latter is one where 109 of its verses incite beheadings and dismemberment or other violence.

I feel this may be the reason why we do not see faithful Christians holding one freshly-severed innocent's head after another, or witness them coolly moving through school classrooms executing innocent children, setting terrified teachers ablaze, or chanting "Jesus" while they shoot yet more innocent victims in cold blood.

[Ninastar]

Nice to see you posting, Kirk. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. As always.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

As for Barak Hussein Obama; the evidence that he is a Muslim in thought, word and deed, is preponderous, overwhelming, and irrefutable to any rational, impartial, and sane researcher.

What evidence would that be, besides his middle name which is apparently so necessary to include?