[rubymoo]

This is a bit of a rant about my doctor.

I went to the doctors yesterday about my insomnia, it's got to the point where i can barely function and has been going on since i was 16 (my mum died when i was 16).

I saw this doctor regularly 14/15 years ago when i was pregnant with twins, who were a result of fertility treatment, so i was highly anxious that this precious gift i was carrying would be taken away as my mum was, so this particular time in my life was fraught with anxiety as i did everything to protect my babies, and yes during this time i had some pretty wild anxious thoughts, the house bursting into flames from faulty wiring comes to mind, and i told my doctor about all my wild anxieties (he suggested this rather than refer me to counselling).

So....i had my babies and they've grown into beautiful young ladies, but this problem with sleeping has persisted, it's probably a habit now, and i don't know what to do about it.

I wake up after a couple of hours, it seems my brain isn't fully shutting down and if i hear a tiny noise my brain quickly goes on alert and wakes me, i could be awake for a few minutes or i could be awake for hours, i never get more than 2-3 hours sleep in a block, and i'm sooooooo tired

So as i said i went to the doctors yesterday, and i burst into tears because i'm sooooo tired, he handed me tissues and went on to say that it was anxiety and that he remembered when i was pregnant and my wild anxious thoughts........i was gobsmacked!

He went on to tell me how i felt, how i was having anxious thoughts that were preventing me from sleeping, he then went on to tell me all about the stages of sleep(how the hell is that going to help me!) and ended up waffling on for most of my 10 minute appointment, he spoke to me like i was a twat.

I tried to explain that i wasn't anxious and i actually have no problem getting to sleep, it's the staying a sleep that's the issue, and if i was this anxious person (and i do admit that i have had my anxious episodes and panic attacks) then i would have taken my girls to see him every time they had a sniffle, when i haven't.

He didn't stop to ask me if i'd had any other symptoms, he didn't ask me if i was worrying about anything, he didn't ask me if there were family problems, he didn't ask me if i'd tried anything to help me sleep, he had basically diagnosed me just by seeing my name on his patient list, this was yesterday and i'm still fuming, he asked me if i wanted to see a counsellor but i've seen one twice and i've talked through things, and i don't want to go over old ground, it is what it is, so he said about me going for CBT, but i don't have any worrying thoughts, i'm just tired!

I suppose i wanted him to prescribe me something just to keep me asleep at night for a couple of weeks in an attempt to try and break this habit.

#feelingsad

[Ammi]

.....hmmm, I think that the thing is with prescribing anything, is that it could so quickly become something that is relied on, Ruby..?...CBT isn't just for anxieties, it can help with many things and also hypnotherapy is something to be considered as well, these things really can help with relaxation techniques ...I feel for you though because the more our thoughts are absorbed with getting sleep/needing sleep, the less likely that sleep is to happen...

[Vanessa]

You could try camomille tea. That usually works for me when i can't sleep. Or herbal tablets. They aren't addictive and you can buy them without prescription.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

.....hmmm, I think that the thing is with prescribing anything, is that it could so quickly become something that is relied on, Ruby..?...CBT isn't just for anxieties, it can help with many things and also hypnotherapy is something to be considered as well, these things really can help with relaxation techniques ...I feel for you though because the more our thoughts are absorbed with getting sleep/needing sleep, the less likely that sleep is to happen...

Hi Ammi, i get what you're saying Ammi, he did say something about Benzodiazapines which i flatly refused because they are addictive, he offered Amitriptyline but i've had them before and they make my insomnia worse, i just thought that there may be something that would give me sleep throughout the night and leave me feeling refreshed when i wake up, i get it now......there is no such pill!

Thanks for the reply, i guess i'm just annoyed with my Dr for saying i'm anxious before he's even evaluated me

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

You could try camomille tea. That usually works for me when i can't sleep. Or herbal tablets. They aren't addictive and you can buy them without prescription.

Hi Vanessa, i've tried chamomile, lavender on my pillow, various herbal sleep pills, no technology after 6pm, no caffeine after midday, keeping my room cool, summer duvet, warm milky drinks, meditation, and dolphin music, nothing works

I've even tried alcohol.......that works quite well getting you to sleep, but it's a bugger on my reflux, and i find i wake constantly throughout the night with alcohol, so it's a nono for me (and for the younger ones reading this, alcohol is never the answer!)

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I get what you're saying Ammi, he did say something about Benzodiazapines which i flatly refused because they are addictive, he offered Amitriptyline but i've had them before and they make my insomnia worse, i just thought that there may be something that would give me sleep throughout the night and leave me feeling refreshed when i wake up, i get it now......there is no such pill!

..we would all take it if there was such a thing, eh......

..seriously though, I know that what happened when you were 16yrs has no bearing on your not being able to sleep now/it's a set pattern that you're not able to break and obviously concerned about it so that concern isn't helping and will only make a restful night less likely and so it goes on and on etc...but I do think that understanding where your anxieties in life come from and how you typically cope with them is something that could help with this because the connection did seem to start there/if that makes sense..?...and hypnotherapy (relaxation)..combined with CBT..(understanding your thought processes and their effects on you..).. sounds like something that could really help you atm...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Hi Vanessa, i've tried chamomile, lavender on my pillow, various herbal sleep pills, no technology after 6pm, no caffeine after midday, keeping my room cool, summer duvet, warm milky drinks, meditation, and dolphin music, nothing works

I've even tried alcohol.......that works quite well getting you to sleep, but it's a bugger on my reflux, and i find i wake constantly throughout the night with alcohol, so it's a nono for me (and for the younger ones reading this, alcohol is never the answer!)

...see, when you're trying these things though, your mind has pressure on it of thinking...'hopefully this will make me sleep, WILL MAKE ME SLEEP, MAKE ME SLEEP....'../so they're not likely to work because of that pressure...

[Ammi]

...anyways what do I know, I wake up at 4am every morning...

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..we would all take it if there was such a thing, eh......

..seriously though, I know that what happened when you were 16yrs has no bearing on your not being able to sleep now/it's a set pattern that you're not able to break and obviously concerned about it so that concern isn't helping and will only make a restful night less likely and so it goes on and on etc...but I do think that understanding where your anxieties in life come from and how you typically cope with them is something that could help with this because the connection did seem to start there/if that makes sense..?...and hypnotherapy (relaxation)..combined with CBT..(understanding your thought processes and their effects on you..).. sounds like something that could really help you atm...

I did ask him if hypnotherapy was available on the NHS, but sadly it's not.

And yes such a pill would be a problem solver

I guess i don't want to open up the can of worms that my life has been, maybe i should give CBT a try.

And i did have a dream last night that my family were walking along a coastal path, that was very narrow and we were all on the edge of a cliff, my fear in the dream was that the cliff was going to give way and we were going to plunge to our deaths, but my concern was my children, i don't know how to stop these thoughts when they're in my dreams

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...see, when you're trying these things though, your mind has pressure on it of thinking...'hopefully this will make me sleep, WILL MAKE ME SLEEP, MAKE ME SLEEP....'../so they're not likely to work because of that pressure...

It's strange because when doing these things you don't realise it as pressure, yet when i read it back i guess i am putting a huge amount of pressure on myself

Because i've been so tired i haven't had a lot of energy, so today i'm going to do a 2 hour walk, and i'll make it as brisk as i can, i've just had a green smoothie, my coconut water and a vanilla chai tea (i only have 1 cup of coffee a day, which is around 11am)

Maybe i'll sleep tonight! (I've gone and done it again!!!! My mind is already on tonights sleep:/)

[LeatherTrumpet]

A doctor is a medical doctor principally and it sounds like you need someone more qualified and with more time to talk to (he is general practitioner but master of none). Like a sleep therapist or general wellbeing therapist

Can i just ask however as I am sure he did...

Do you drink any caffeine after 2pm (tea, coffee, coke, chocolate)?

Do you eat after 9pm

How much proper exercise do you take each week (where your heart is racing)?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I did ask him if hypnotherapy was available on the NHS, but sadly it's not.

And yes such a pill would be a problem solver

I guess i don't want to open up the can of worms that my life has been, maybe i should give CBT a try.

And i did have a dream last night that my family were walking along a coastal path, that was very narrow and we were all on the edge of a cliff, my fear in the dream was that the cliff was going to give way and we were going to plunge to our deaths, but my concern was my children, i don't know how to stop these thoughts when they're in my dreams

... you won't be able to stop them, Ruby because they're not in your (awake) conscious thoughts so there is nothing atm to rationalise as such..they're in your sub-conscious and creeping into your dreams..the way to try to stop them is to understand them, to understand yourself...then we can see the 'irrationality' ..the 'crossing of bridges' in our head and already fearing the worst with those bridges when we probably won't even ever have to face them..?...our minds are our worst enemy and far worse than any realities that may happen....

..sorry, I have to be somewhere so have to go but I'll look up some stuff online a bit later (about CBT..)..and maybe PM it to you if that's ok../I do think it could really help you...

[bitontheslide]

Let me try and put a slightly different angle on it. I think you are getting some anxiety from the fact that you can't get a "good nights" sleep and this is bringing you down, making you more anxious and creating a bit of a vicious circle.

Historically, humans didn't go to sleep for a good 8 hours then wake up the next day refreshed. They took naps as and when they could, and that served them well for countless generations. Look at hot countries as an example where people shut down at the hottest part of the day, have a nap, then continue on. Its perfectly normal.

Also, as has been stated above, sleeping cycles can be a bit of a habit, but if you have a smart phone, there are apps that help with sleeping now such as

http://www.sleepcycle.com/

What this does is wake you up at the best time in your sleep cycle so that you wake up refreshed. I have no connection with this product, but it does help, and I know quite a few folk that its helped

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

It's strange because when doing these things you don't realise it as pressure, yet when i read it back i guess i am putting a huge amount of pressure on myself

Because i've been so tired i haven't had a lot of energy, so today i'm going to do a 2 hour walk, and i'll make it as brisk as i can, i've just had a green smoothie, my coconut water and a vanilla chai tea (i only have 1 cup of coffee a day, which is around 11am)

Maybe i'll sleep tonight! (I've gone and done it again!!!! My mind is already on tonights sleep:/)

..your diet will help and exercise as well so keep up with that also....

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

A doctor is a medical doctor principally and it sounds like you need someone more qualified and with more time to talk to (he is general practitioner but master of none). Like a sleep therapist or general wellbeing therapist

Can i just ask however as I am sure he did...

Do you drink any caffeine after 2pm (tea, coffee, coke, chocolate)?

Do you eat after 9pm

How much proper exercise do you take each week (where your heart is racing)?

He asked me none of those questions LT.

I have 1 cup of coffee at 11am, i may have a strip of dark chocolate at around 2pm, i take no exercise where my heart is racing, however i do walk the dogs for 2 hours a day (an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening) and my extra exercise today will be a 2 hour walk with my girls (to the pub for a late breakfast, where i'll have my coffee)

I don't eat after 6pm.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Let me try and put a slightly different angle on it. I think you are getting some anxiety from the fact that you can't get a "good nights" sleep and this is bringing you down, making you more anxious and creating a bit of a vicious circle.

Historically, humans didn't go to sleep for a good 8 hours then wake up the next day refreshed. They took naps as and when they could, and that served them well for countless generations. Look at hot countries as an example where people shut down at the hottest part of the day, have a nap, then continue on. Its perfectly normal.

Also, as has been stated above, sleeping cycles can be a bit of a habit, but if you have a smart phone, there are apps that help with sleeping now such as

http://www.sleepcycle.com/

What this does is wake you up at the best time in your sleep cycle so that you wake up refreshed. I have no connection with this product, but it does help, and I know quite a few folk that its helped

Indeed we all sleep in cycles and wake up multiple times at night.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

... you won't be able to stop them, Ruby because they're not in your (awake) conscious thoughts so there is nothing atm to rationalise as such..they're in your sub-conscious and creeping into your dreams..the way to try to stop them is to understand them, to understand yourself...then we can see the 'irrationality' ..the 'crossing of bridges' in our head and already fearing the worst with those bridges when we probably won't even ever have to face them..?...our minds are our worst enemy and far worse than any realities that may happen....

..sorry, I have to be somewhere so have to go but I'll look up some stuff online a bit later (about CBT..)..and maybe PM it to you if that's ok../I do think it could really help you...

That would be great Ammi thank you.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Let me try and put a slightly different angle on it. I think you are getting some anxiety from the fact that you can't get a "good nights" sleep and this is bringing you down, making you more anxious and creating a bit of a vicious circle.

Historically, humans didn't go to sleep for a good 8 hours then wake up the next day refreshed. They took naps as and when they could, and that served them well for countless generations. Look at hot countries as an example where people shut down at the hottest part of the day, have a nap, then continue on. Its perfectly normal.

Also, as has been stated above, sleeping cycles can be a bit of a habit, but if you have a smart phone, there are apps that help with sleeping now such as

http://www.sleepcycle.com/

What this does is wake you up at the best time in your sleep cycle so that you wake up refreshed. I have no connection with this product, but it does help, and I know quite a few folk that its helped

Thanks i'll look into it

It's horrible feeling knackered all the time, i'll give anything a go

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

He asked me none of those questions LT.

I have 1 cup of coffee at 11am, i may have a strip of dark chocolate at around 2pm, i take no exercise where my heart is racing, however i do walk the dogs for 2 hours a day (an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening) and my extra exercise today will be a 2 hour walk with my girls (to the pub for a late breakfast, where i'll have my coffee)

I don't eat after 6pm.

So on an average night when do you turn in?

do you read in bed?

Do you fall to sleep easily?

How long do you sleep before waking, how long are you awake for?

Then when you get back to sleep how long for?

When do you get up?

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

So on an average night when do you turn in?

do you read in bed?

Do you fall to sleep easily?

How long do you sleep before waking, how long are you awake for?

Then when you get back to sleep how long for?

When do you get up?

I turn in at around 10.30, however at weekends it can be as late as midnight, i know that a regular sleep pattern is the best way forward, but my lot are a noisy bunch and i know if i was to go to sleep at 10.30 at weekends i would be woken up/kept awake by them......just realising that i have this need to see my kids safe in bed before i can sleep:/

I generally fall asleep easily, i wake up around 2-3 hours after first getting to sleep, i can then go back for an hour, it's this next stage that's the problem because i will either stay awake for hours(until 5.30ish) or i will toss and turn all night waking every 20/30/40/45 mins until hubby gets up to go to work at 6, i find that it's at this point that i could go to sleep, however to establish a good sleeping pattern i should be getting up at this time.

So the time i get up varies, on a weekend it'll be 9am, if it's a school day 7am, and in holidays it's 9am (even if i go to bed at 10.30pm)

I think i'm going to have to be strict and have my own set bedtime, but i have this thing where i like to see my girls safe in bed, they are 14, maybe time to let go

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I turn in at around 10.30, however at weekends it can be as late as midnight, i know that a regular sleep pattern is the best way forward, but my lot are a noisy bunch and i know if i was to go to sleep at 10.30 at weekends i would be woken up/kept awake by them......just realising that i have this need to see my kids safe in bed before i can sleep:/

I generally fall asleep easily, i wake up around 2-3 hours after first getting to sleep, i can then go back for an hour, it's this next stage that's the problem because i will either stay awake for hours(until 5.30ish) or i will toss and turn all night waking every 20/30/40/45 mins until hubby gets up to go to work at 6, i find that it's at this point that i could go to sleep, however to establish a good sleeping pattern i should be getting up at this time.

So the time i get up varies, on a weekend it'll be 9am, if it's a school day 7am, and in holidays it's 9am (even if i go to bed at 10.30pm)

I think i'm going to have to be strict and have my own set bedtime, but i have this thing where i like to see my girls safe in bed, they are 14, maybe time to let go

I would certainly try to get up every day at 6 and at least try that for 21 days (a proven period in which to imprint onto the mind a pattern). I wopuld also try as best you can to go to bed at the same time (say 11) and have a routine where you read for 20 mins (to relax the mind).

The solution is deffo not a pill, that is for sure.


As you get older you need a lot less sleep and s;eep patterns do get disturbed so I would wager it is just this fact and then add to that your misplaced anxiety that you are not getting enough sleep.



Now can you please loosen your clothing and hold this...

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I would certainly try to get up every day at 6 and at least try that for 21 days (a proven period in which to imprint onto the mind a pattern). I wopuld also try as best you can to go to bed at the same time (say 11) and have a routine where you read for 20 mins (to relax the mind).

The solution is deffo not a pill, that is for sure.


As you get older you need a lot less sleep and s;eep patterns do get disturbed so I would wager it is just this fact and then add to that your misplaced anxiety that you are not getting enough sleep.



Now can you please loosen your clothing and hold this...

I will start this plan from tonight, and agree that a pill is not the answer, however if someone offered me a pill i would surely take it, probably the reason the Dr wouldn't give me anything because i would likely get addicted as i'm desperate for sleep!

And lol!

Righty off for my walk and a late breakfast with my girls

[Kizzy]

I think your doctor knows as you've said there is no pill that will give you the good quality sleep you need, they're just a chemical sledgehammer :/
The CBT sounds a fantastic idea, it's actually great that he is willing to ensure you rid yourself of this anxiety and not simply mask it. You may not relish the idea of going through this but the problem isn't going anywhere is it?
I would also see if there is anywhere in your area that does guided meditation, that is fantastic for deep relaxation. Self hypnosis is great too, I used that to stop smoking and drinking (not at the same time) concentrate on your heart rate slow and steady initially a few minutes a day I'll PM you a couple of techniques if you want.
Is the anxiety only associated with the night time? As said have a few cat naps it may retrain your brain to actually associate sleep with total relaxation. It makes sense your health issues now too Ruby as we heal when we sleep so if you rarely sleep you're at a distinct disadvantage.
Take your doc up on his kind offer you've nothing to lose, it might be playing the long game but you know being drug free and in charge of your own sleep pattern is the best option in the long term. x

[Glenn.]

I thought this was doctor who shade

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think your doctor knows as you've said there is no pill that will give you the good quality sleep you need, they're just a chemical sledgehammer :/
The CBT sounds a fantastic idea, it's actually great that he is willing to ensure you rid yourself of this anxiety and not simply mask it. You may not relish the idea of going through this but the problem isn't going anywhere is it?
I would also see if there is anywhere in your area that does guided meditation, that is fantastic for deep relaxation. Self hypnosis is great too, I used that to stop smoking and drinking (not at the same time) concentrate on your heart rate slow and steady initially a few minutes a day I'll PM you a couple of techniques if you want.
Is the anxiety only associated with the night time? As said have a few cat naps it may retrain your brain to actually associate sleep with total relaxation. It makes sense your health issues now too Ruby as we heal when we sleep so if you rarely sleep you're at a distinct disadvantage.
Take your doc up on his kind offer you've nothing to lose, it might be playing the long game but you know being drug free and in charge of your own sleep pattern is the best option in the long term. x

I would love you to PM me some techniques Kizzy

I'm really shocked at how much my anxiety is still bothering me

If you'd have asked me yesterday if i were anxious i'd have said a massive no! Yet it's quite apparent that i still have anxiety issues.

I've done a lot of reflecting regarding yesterdays Dr's visit and this thread, and it seems to me that these issues are deeply manifested and are actually in my subconscious, i'm wondering how many anxiety related dreams i'm having that are waking me up, i really thought i was ok, but it's quite apparent that i'm not, i'm going to refer myself to the local mental health team and see if they can offer me CBT, and i might take them up on the counselling too, but i know with the counselling i'm going to be a mess, i just can't get past certain things in my childhood.