[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

its simple maths which all the tory haters here cant understand

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by the truth

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

Please, tell me more about these millionaire JDs.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

[MTVN]

LESS than five per cent of junior doctors backed the five-day walkouts ordered by militant bosses, The Sun on Sunday can reveal.

Strike leaders now fear thousands of the medics will cross picket lines as they do not support the action.

The walkout, due to start next week, will cause 500,000 operations to be cancelled and four million appointments lost, hospitals association NHS Providers has said.

And sources have described the strikes as a step too far that will put patients’ lives at risk.

Some 37,770 of England’s 55,000 junior doctors are members of the British Medical Association, giving them a vote on industrial action.

But just 20 per cent (7,540) returned an August ballot on the fresh strikes set to begin on September 12.

And only 31.5 per cent (2,375) of those who did vote backed the full five-day walkouts.

That means the monthly strikes that will see medics abandon hospital departments including A&E, maternity and intensive care were supported by just 4.3 per cent of junior doctors.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategoriz...strike-action/

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

LESS than five per cent of junior doctors backed the five-day walkouts ordered by militant bosses, The Sun on Sunday can reveal.

Strike leaders now fear thousands of the medics will cross picket lines as they do not support the action.

The walkout, due to start next week, will cause 500,000 operations to be cancelled and four million appointments lost, hospitals association NHS Providers has said.

And sources have described the strikes as a step too far that will put patients’ lives at risk.

Some 37,770 of England’s 55,000 junior doctors are members of the British Medical Association, giving them a vote on industrial action.

But just 20 per cent (7,540) returned an August ballot on the fresh strikes set to begin on September 12.

And only 31.5 per cent (2,375) of those who did vote backed the full five-day walkouts.

That means the monthly strikes that will see medics abandon hospital departments including A&E, maternity and intensive care were supported by just 4.3 per cent of junior doctors.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategoriz...strike-action/

Well lets see if the govt. does nothing and this goes ahead, just how many Junior Doctors do actually leave their posts.

The fact is Junior Doctors do 'not' want to strike, however they are not being listened to.

2 of my Cousins are leaving the UK,with 2 more to follow later,I am not happy that they, who worked so hard and studied so hard to become Doctors are now so mad at the govt and the idea of this contract, that they are leaving the UK completely.

Why, because they believe now that this govt will impose this contract against all the will of all across the NHS and so, for Doctors, it is a waste of time expecting anything better now from this govt or England as to the NHS and this contract.

Strike or no strike, England and this Govt may realise, after the imposing of this contract, eventually,(once many more clear off to places where people will appreciate them),that they had gems of Doctors working in the NHS that have been driven away by this badly planned contract.

Too late then to admit the govt was wrong and support for this govt on this issue was badly misguided due to misleading info from said govt.

As to what state the NHS will be after that, well England and this govt will get all it deserves and masses of Patients really sadly being the ones to pay the price for a govt unable to be reasonable and being plain stubborn.

As for the Govts 7 day week plan, that is almost dead in the water anyway even before this dispute,after the loss to come of many really good Doctors,if this contract is just imposed, it will then be likely impossible to bring about.
It will be hard enough to even come close to providing what is the service now.

Funny how now we should take notice of numbers who did not vote,yet on other issues anyone not voting on something should be ignored.

[MTVN]

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

the tories have reduced the maximum hours by 19 hours, labour are insane they expect doctors to work 91 hours and they let gp's off the hook totally

its not single rate either that is simply wrong

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.

the bosses there are pure scum and will be sued for billions when innocent people die because of their bully boy tactics

[joeysteele]

I give up here,I will wait and see the moans and groans when there are far fewer Junior Doctors, not only left in the NHS but less and less coming forward to be trained as same too.

Maybe then people will see the wrong of a govt,forcing the very people it should be keeping on board as to any planning for the NHS, to work on a contract those Doctors believe to be unfair and dangerous.

Some group is going to be proven correct if this contract is imposed,and my money would go on the Junior Doctors being so.

It will just be so sad that England will have lost a great many of those skilled and dedicated professionals because of the deliberate stubborn awkwardness of a dictatorial govt.

Of course, maybe the people who are against the Junior Doctors on this, will then get what they possibly want, a fully privatised Health service.

Good luck to all with that one.

Thank all powers that be for Scotland and Wales who would never impose such a contract on their Doctors.
Preferring to work with the Junior Doctors and other NHS staff, rather than dictate to them.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I give up here,I will wait and see the moans and groans when there are far fewer Junior Doctors, not only left in the NHS but less and less coming forward to be trained as same too.

Maybe then people will see the wrong of a govt,forcing the very people it should be keeping on board as to any planning for the NHS, to work on a contract those Doctors believe to be unfair and dangerous.

Some group is going to be proven correct if this contract is imposed, and my money would go on the Junior Doctors being so.

You still have such optimism Joey! They will of course be proven correct to those of us who can already see it; those who can't still won't see the wrongdoing of the government, still won't think it's their fault... they'll still blame those within the NHS itself, and the doctors.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You still have such optimism Joey! They will of course be proven correct to those of us who can already see it; those who can't still won't see the wrongdoing of the government, still won't think it's their fault... they'll still blame those within the NHS itself, and the doctors.

I know TS. Blindly supporting a bad govt decision is not for me, even if it was my party in govt,
If Labour were doing this contract, I would be slamming them left, right and centre on here too.

Anyway I stay solid with my support for the Junior Doctors.

They are the people I would gladly trust with my life, not this pathetic govt who have brought disillusionment, confusion and massive concern in the NHS from 2011 onwards.
First with the top down re-organisation that was promised never to be going to happen.
Also now this dangerous contract which has brought Doctors to the last resort of striking, for the first time since the mid 70s for goodness sake.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

Yep, my sentiments exactly Jack

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Jack_

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

party truth partly fiction

some of this is exaggerated hysterical paranoia conspiracy theories.....the nhs collapsed under labour , the waiting lists are down the mrsa and diseases are down, the ombudsmen complaints procedures have been strengthened...to privatise small parts of the nhs to ensure the whole thing runs better and the service is better and the waiting lists are shorter but the service is still free then that is for the good...the numbers getting private insurance cover has actually fallen which counters your argument...we must tear up the insane 2004 labour / gp doctors contract which let them off out of hours work....gp doctors MUST sign a new contract where they must cover some out of hours
The real corruption is in the medicines and tablets being bought up by private companies across the globe. cancer tablets costing 50p to make resold at Ł500? the amount of cancer treatments only available privately is a disgrace
in my experience the nhs was better under thatcher than under new labour, but that simply underlines how corrupt stupid and wasteful new labour were

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jack_

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

Absolutely right, although I would go as far as to say as to the sentiment at the very end your post, that a good number of those against the Junior Doctors do see it.
However they will not admit in any shape or form,this govt could be wrong and may even 'want' to see too the near or full privatisation of the English NHS.

You are correct totally Jack_, this is exactly what this govt is doing, treating the people who work for it and at present particularly the junior Doctors like dog****.

How anyone can support that and switch the blame to the Junior Doctors only is totally beyond my understanding I am afraid.

[the truth]

Blsm3 the new labour idiots too for the insane 2004 gp contract which must be destroyed

[bitontheslide]

the strikes due from the 12th -16th have been called off .... whew

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the strikes due from the 12th -16th have been called off .... whew

Great news but I hope now the govt will make the right move and stop being so confrontational.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Great news but I hope now the govt will make the right move and stop being so confrontational.

Glad the doctors realise their own immorality
. Time doctors in Wales and Scotland strike about working 91 hours. Funny they don't? Oh yes because they get double time. It's ALL about the money.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the strikes due from the 12th -16th have been called off .... whew

Wonder if the fact that the GMC were not happy about it had anything to do with the decision?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Wonder if the fact that the GMC were not happy about it had anything to do with the decision?

I think all groups not just the GMC have been behind this move.

The Junior Doctors do not want to strike,many of them themselves have indicated they think this strike was too much too soon.
Many other sections have said it would cause really big problems.

So that has been listened to, and this first set of strikes are now called off,
thankfully.

Sadly from his rhetoric still, it seems from Hunt all they will get is more ignorance and more kicking them in the teeth.
At least those involved in this strike action have listened,unlike this govt. and Hunt.

Even now, although it will never and cannot happen but even now, if Hunt ad the govt. asked parliament to vote on the imposing of this contract and all MPs had a free vote,a really strong number of Conservative MPs would also even vote against it being imposed.