[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Jaxie/Marsh.

None of Marshs posts have been removed in here. In another similar thread that was closed for cleaning a few times, yes, but not in here.

Not sure if you are talking about this thread specifically, or the topic in general. So just wanted to clear that up.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

More personal slurs, Kizzy?



The purpose of debate is to develop and inform an opinion. I know that some people believe that it's about butting their heads against a wall until the wall breaks, but it's not, and it's perfectly acceptable to have views on aspects of a discussion - or in this place (accurately) believe that the subject isn't really up for discussion - without a pre-formed "definitive opinion".



Questioning and criticising other people's reasoning is a valid and important part of debate. Again, I understand why that would be a problem in a thread that is not up for debate.



As far as I'm aware, no one on this thread does?



I explicitly did not "demand that others amend or review their views". I requested that they cut the BS and be a bit more honest about the root of their views because, in my opinion, 2 + 2 is equalling 5 a lot of the time.




I'm not "worried" about anything; I dislike being paraphrased (which I'm going to take on board, because I'm guilty of doing it to others) and I especially dislike being paraphrased "so what you're saying is..." style with the suggestion being something that I haven't said at all. I'm especially opposed to this when there isn't even a quote to clarify.



Don't be a hypocrite Kizzy; who are you to tell anyone that they are or are not allowed to feel? I suspect you'd take issue with it if someone did that to you?

See... you're determined to take offence from the off! If you don't have an opinion of your own, you don't know anyone elses then by definition you're ignorant TS.

Again all I see here is presumption and hypocrisy ... you dislike 'so what your saying is'... but apparently you LOVE 'what you're NOT saying is'?....

I haven't told anyone how to feel, I imagine being told how to think?!

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Jaxie/Marsh.

None of Marshs posts have been removed in here. In another similar thread that was closed for cleaning a few times, yes, but not in here.

Not sure if you are talking about this thread specifically, or the topic in general. So just wanted to clear that up.

Oh thank you Vicky, for clarifying. I might be mistaking this for that thread then.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

How ****ing patronising seriously.

Why is it patronising? Do we have to take everything that everyone says at face value without question in order to "not be patronising"?

Originally Posted by jaxie

He is thinking for us now? Just wow.

How is that people think they know how others minds work and all their motives for any given subject after sharing a few opinions on a forum. It's ridiculous.

I'm not thinking for anyone, I'm questioning people's thoughts and what the root of those thoughts might be. Which is again an absolutely bog standard part of any debate. If I believed that I "knew" what everyone was thinking, why would I be asking what the root of the thought is?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I'll look and see if I can find the comment on this thread, if not then I apologise for posting a very valid point in the wrong thread.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'll look and see if I can find the comment on this thread, if not then I apologise for posting a very valid point in the wrong thread.

So you've basically come in here "Oh, I need to respond to Marsh with something against him, now I'll go find something after I've already said something".

Happy hunting, I guess.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Why is it patronising? Do we have to take everything that everyone says at face value without question in order to "not be patronising"?




I'm not thinking for anyone, I'm questioning people's thoughts and what the root of those thoughts might be. Which is again an absolutely bog standard part of any debate. If I believed that I "knew" what everyone was thinking, why would I be asking what the root of the thought is?

Are you for real? Seriously? you want me to tell you why I think that it's patronising to tell a person that you think their arguments in a debate/discussion are a bunch of lies and are hiding their underlying transphobia?

Also, speaking for myself, I've always been into womens rights and a bit of a feminist, you can check back to when i joined this forum to see that but all of a sudden I don't really care about womens rights and am just pretending to to hide my transphobia? mm right.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

See... you're determined to take offence from the off! If you don't have an opinion of your own, you don't know anyone elses then by definition you're ignorant TS.

I'm not taking offense Kizzy, I'm noting that (as with every other post directed at me recently) you're attempting (and failing) to cause offense.

Again all I see here is presumption and hypocrisy ... you dislike 'so what your saying is'... but apparently you LOVE 'what you're NOT saying is'?....

"I think you might have more to say that you're holding back" is not putting words in someone's mouth. There might be an implication of what "those things" are, I suppose, but then that would be easily cleared up with "No, what I'm holding back on saying is...". Someone could also say "Nope I'm not holding anything back" but again - in what world does that mean you MUST believe that? Is it debate? Really? If you think someone is holding back you should say so .


And no, I don't accept that not having a full-and-set-in-stone opinion on any subject equates to ignorance. In fact, some of the most ignorant people I've ever encountered are those who DO have such concrete belief sets.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As succinctly as I can;

My issue is that Brillo feels very strongly that she has the right to comment on Muslim-issues despite being a non-Muslim, and you and Cherie are invariably the first people to jump in to back her up on that right...

...and then on this thread Brillo felt that I did not have the right to comment on female-issues as I am a non-female... and you and Cherie were the first to back her up.


Brillo having contradictory stances isn't really the issue though; people often have contradictory opinions. The back-up though, just confirms to me that Brillo is "someone that you two will back up" regardless of what is actually being said. I'm not painting you as villains, just making an observation, but it does I think render it fairly meaningless when you jump in on other threads to adamantly state that "Brillo is entitled to her opinion!".

If you are going to lump me in as Brillo's defender, perhaps you should go through and see how many of her posts I quote. You might find the result a surprise. I will support Brillo the same as anyone else when I agree with her, but I'm not her cheer team. Get your facts straight before bring me into it please.

I do actually support everyone being allowed to have their opinion though and Brillo is probably the most shouted down person on the forum. But if you are telling me I am the first to back her up, you need to back that up with multiple examples or back off.

In bold. Show me.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, not having his own opinion simply means he doesn't know which side of the debate his feelings lie. That doesn't automatically mean he doesn't hold an opinion because he knows nothing of the topic. It simply means he's undecided, not ignorant.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Are you for real? Seriously? you want me to tell you why I think that it's patronising to tell a person that you think their arguments in a debate/discussion are a bunch of lies and are hiding their underlying transphobia?

I haven't said that anyone's opinions are "a bunch of lies", I've said that it seems to me - very strongly - that there's something more behind those opinions than what is being offered. A perfectly valid part of any debate, and frankly, the incredulity in the responses doesn't really make me think otherwise?

Also, speaking for myself, I've always been into womens rights and a bit of a feminist, you can check back to when i joined this forum to see that but all of a sudden I don't really care about womens rights and am just pretending to to hide my transphobia? mm right.

Again, I have never said that anyone is only "pretending" to support women's rights. I do however believe that there is currently a strong anti-trans sentiment that is being attached to the pursuit or defense of women's rights that could debatably be questioned as transphobic in nature - but that can't be confirmed or denied, apparently, as it is not open to debate but only a flat "NO. DENY. DO NOT QUESTION AGAIN!". Serious debates. It should be OK to question someone's thinking! Or maybe we should rename the forum "Serious Soapboxing And Accepting Other People's Views Without Question". Wordsy, but more accurate.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So you've basically come in here "Oh, I need to respond to Marsh with something against him, now I'll go find something after I've already said something".

Happy hunting, I guess.

Don't be ridiculous, my world doesn't revolve around you.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Don't be ridiculous, my world doesn't revolve around you.

Clearly, everything you're posting in this thread supports that.

Goodbye.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I haven't said that anyone's opinions are "a bunch of lies", I've said that it seems to me - very strongly - that there's something more behind those opinions than what is being offered. A perfectly valid part of any debate, and frankly, the incredulity in the responses doesn't really make me think otherwise?



Again, I have never said that anyone is only "pretending" to support women's rights. I do however believe that there is currently a strong anti-trans sentiment that is being attached to the pursuit or defense of women's rights that could debatably be questioned as transphobic in nature - but that can't be confirmed or denied, apparently, as it is not open to debate but only a flat "NO. DENY. DO NOT QUESTION AGAIN!". Serious debates. It should be OK to question someone's thinking! Or maybe we should rename the forum "Serious Soapboxing And Accepting Other People's Views Without Question". Wordsy, but more accurate.

Sorry you didn't say a bunch of lies, you said BS, silly me.

In a debate I expect people to listen to my reasons for where I stand on an issue yes without calling me a liar. But anyway I'm tired of this particular discussion and I'm tired of being called a liar (sorry bull****ter) by you so this really is my last response to you on the subject.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sorry you didn't say a bunch of lies, you said BS, silly me.

In a debate I expect people to listen to my reasons for where I stand on an issue yes without calling me a liar. But anyway I'm tired of this particular discussion and I'm tired of being called a liar (sorry bull****ter) by you so this really is my last response to you on the subject.

Fair enough. Apparently we're not moving past the personal offense issues, so it probably is best to not go round in circles.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As succinctly as I can;

My issue is that Brillo feels very strongly that she has the right to comment on Muslim-issues despite being a non-Muslim, and you and Cherie are invariably the first people to jump in to back her up on that right...

...and then on this thread Brillo felt that I did not have the right to comment on female-issues as I am a non-female... and you and Cherie were the first to back her up.


Brillo having contradictory stances isn't really the issue though; people often have contradictory opinions. The back-up though, just confirms to me that Brillo is "someone that you two will back up" regardless of what is actually being said. I'm not painting you as villains, just making an observation, but it does I think render it fairly meaningless when you jump in on other threads to adamantly state that "Brillo is entitled to her opinion!".

I very rarely back Brillo up as she is quite capable of doing that herself, and even if I do agree with her on occasion, what does that mean exactly? that I agree with her on everything, that her views are my views, honestly give it a rest if you lump me in with other forum members again I will report you as this is not the first time you have done it . I post my own views, if I agree with someone today, I might disagree with them tomorrow, stop being so petty

[Maru]

Does anyone else find it odd that so many folk people are in the business of mind reading now?

I don't have that kind of patience at all. If I feel someone is reading to me my thoughts and trying to play hangman with my responses, then I logon to another website.

That's also problem #999 I have with Twitter-created faux controversy like the OP... "Oh they MUST'VE meant/thought/agreed with/supported/stoked <insert controversial thing>"...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I very rarely back Brillo up as she is quite capable of doing that herself, and even if I do agree with her on occasion, what does that mean exactly? that I agree with her on everything, that her views are my views, honestly give it a rest if you lump me in with other forum members again I will report you as this is not the first time you have done it . I post my own views, if I agree with someone today, I might disagree with them tomorrow, stop being so petty

My issue is purely that the views are directly contradictory Cherie; that Brillo is to be respected in her opinion on Muslim issues, but I'm not to be taken seriously in my opinion on feminist issues. And in my experience, you do frequently jump into those threads... often with your reasoning being that you hate to see people going up against several people alone. I see you have no such issue if that poor, outnumbered person is me? .

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Maru

Does anyone else find it odd that so many folk people are in the business of mind reading now?

I don't have that kind of patience at all. If I feel someone is reading to me my thoughts and trying to play hangman with my responses, then I logon to another website.

That's also problem #999 I have with Twitter-created faux controversy like the OP... "Oh they MUST'VE meant/thought/agreed with/supported/stoked <insert controversial thing>"...

Quite right Maru

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Maru

Does anyone else find it odd that so many folk people are in the business of mind reading now?

I don't have that kind of patience at all. If I feel someone is reading to me my thoughts and trying to play hangman with my responses, then I logon to another website.

That's also problem #999 I have with Twitter-created faux controversy like the OP... "Oh they MUST'VE meant/thought/agreed with/supported/stoked <insert controversial thing>"...

Does that extend to "I don't know that this reasoning necessarily makes sense so can I ask where it really does come from?"

Not that I'm saying that this is how I stated it yesterday, obviously, but still. Surely it's OK to question the origins of a thought process without people being grossly offended or accusing people of "telling them what they think" or "reading minds".

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Does that extend to "I don't know that this reasoning necessarily makes sense so can I ask where it really does come from?"

Not that I'm saying that this is how I stated it yesterday, obviously, but still. Surely it's OK to question the origins of a thought process without people being grossly offended or accusing people of "telling them what they think" or "reading minds".

Except it's not just I need some more information on their thoughts... folk are being told what their real thoughts actually are...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My issue is purely that the views are directly contradictory Cherie; that Brillo is to be respected in her opinion on Muslim issues, but I'm not to be taken seriously in my opinion on feminist issues. And in my experience, you do frequently jump into those threads... often with your reasoning being that you hate to see people going up against several people alone. I see you have no such issue if that poor, outnumbered person is me? .

I would back you if I could see your point, but I can’t

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Maru

Except it's not just I need some more information on their thoughts... folk are being told what their real thoughts actually are...

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Does that extend to "I don't know that this reasoning necessarily makes sense so can I ask where it really does come from?"

Not that I'm saying that this is how I stated it yesterday, obviously, but still.

Surely it's OK to question the origins of a thought process without people being grossly offended or accusing people of "telling them what they think" or "reading minds".

That's why I included the part in bold? It's OK if you don't want to commit to an answer, though.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My issue is purely that the views are directly contradictory Cherie; that Brillo is to be respected in her opinion on Muslim issues, but I'm not to be taken seriously in my opinion on feminist issues. And in my experience, you do frequently jump into those threads... often with your reasoning being that you hate to see people going up against several people alone. I see you have no such issue if that poor, outnumbered person is me? .

I'm sorry but that's BS in regard both Cherie and myself. I don't agree with one particular other form member all the time on any issues. I think you have a presumed bias here based on what you think and are imagining the rest. I agree with most people on occasion including you.

You are implying we are some sort of gang and it's simply not true.

I'd happily stick up for you or anyone else if I thought you were being picked on TS but in this case you came with the accusations and agression no one else.

[Cherie]

My issue is with self identification for both genders as I think it’s going to be abused and will create problems, I don’t have particular issue with toilets and changing areas or any issues around safety, as if a male wants to commit a crime they can just walk into any ladies toilet anyway, it’s not like anyone would be there to stop them