[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

So basically this is you saying if you don't like it you're transphobic?...

Is this your 'juicy morsel', you don't have an opinion either way so nobody else is allowed one? Nobody as far as I see are 'fixated' Interested or invested even but not fixated.

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

I should have known that a post like this was going to crop up eventually.

Nobody's "fixated" for contributing to a discussion that they feel strongly about.

[Northern Monkey]

Can’t see where it was transphobic.Women don’t want people with penises(otherwise known as men) in their changing rooms.Just as men don’t want women in their changing rooms.That seems to be what she said.Nothing about post-op transexuals.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So basically this is you saying if you don't like it you're transphobic?...

No.

Is this your 'juicy morsel', you don't have an opinion either way so nobody else is allowed one?

No.

Nobody as far as I see are 'fixated' Interested or invested even but not fixated.

Recently it seems like some people are a bit fixated, in my opinion, and a general idea that "trans is wrong" or that somehow the sanctity of womanhood(?) is being threatened by it is contributing to some over-the-top assessments of various issues.

[AnnieK]

I don't see fixation as such. I see people with firm opinions on both sides. I can't honestly see either side changing their views but I wouldn't class it as fixated.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I don't see fixation as such. I see people with firm opinions on both sides. I can't honestly see either side changing their views but I wouldn't class it as fixated.

For an issue that's as old as the hills, it seems to be coming up an awful lot, doesn't it? It's the new "immigrants / Brexit". I felt quite nostalgic when a good old fashioned immigrants thread resurfaced today.

[Cherie]

Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment

If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No.

Well sorry that's how you're coming across.

No.

Well sorry that's how you're coming across.



Recently it seems like some people are a bit fixated, in my opinion, and a general idea that "trans is wrong" or that somehow the sanctity of womanhood(?) is being threatened by it is contributing to some over-the-top assessments of various issues.

Nobody has said or even suggested that.
So before you didn't have an opinion but now you have an opinion and that is that mine or 'some' opinions are 'over the top assessments'?

Remember your view that women my age couldn't have an opinion on gaming or games? What qualifies you to comment here...
Not saying you can't or anything, but what?

I'm holding you to the same standard, how can you who have zero experience being a woman, or trans claim that my or 'some' opinions are over the top?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For an issue that's as old as the hills, it seems to be coming up an awful lot, doesn't it? It's the new "immigrants / Brexit". I felt quite nostalgic when a good old fashioned immigrants thread resurfaced today.

You created the issue... you suggested in a thread that there was a problem with opinions being 'vitriolic' and then started another thread to explore that further :/

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it .

I think it’s just a big story at the mo because of the self gender I.D thingy law.I don’t think this forum as a whole is particularly fixated.Apart from a couple of posters.
It’s a pretty big thing now.Specially in the Labour Party.It’s causing massive division in there atm and making mainstream politics shows.Two groups of ‘oppressed’ people(Trans and Feminists) duking it out all over the internet.
I’m not particularly passionate about this being a man but i agree with the feminists on this (one) issue.

If you wanna see fixated and blown out of proportion just click on one of Vicky’s Mumsnet feminism forum links.
I had a read on a few topics on there and they’re in hysterics over this stuff.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

The problem for JK Rowling is that Celebrities do get stalked alot on the Internet and she knows this that's why she should be careful on what she likes on Social Media as rightly or wrongly, if she holds a controversial opinion it could be a career killer.

I agree with you that alot of people do get too emotionally invested on sites like Twitter and Facebook etc, but JK Rowling and other Celebrities shouldn't be giving these kinds of people ammunition.

I disagree. I think people shouldn't hide their true beliefs (their real identity) because a mob mentality could develop. That's part of the issue. Nobody wants to be called racist or some other -phobic word. So people hide their true opinion and craft false personas. When you add it all up, it makes a toxic environment, because it means that everything is--at best--"true" only on a surface level.

That doesn't sound like the open world I'd want myself or my children to grow up in... anyway, beating a dead horse I think with Twitter because it's already too far gone imo ... I think I will just stop using social media entirely and move my news feeds back to RSS.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

I disagree. I think people shouldn't hide their true beliefs (their real identity) because a mob mentality could develop. That's part of the issue. Nobody wants to be called racist or some other -phobic word. So people hide their true opinion and craft false personas. When you add it all up, it makes a toxic environment, because it means that everything is--at best--"true" only on a surface level.

That doesn't sound like the open world I'd want myself or my children to grow up in... anyway, beating a dead horse I think with Twitter because it's already too far gone imo ... I think I will just stop using social media entirely and move my news feeds back to RSS.

[Cherie]

This thread reminds me of any immigrant thread, you can't have an opposing opinion or point out the obvious disadvantages to self identifying without being labelled

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

This thread reminds me of any immigrant thread, you can't have an opposing opinion or point out the obvious disadvantages to self identifying without being labelled

I got this impression too Cherie.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Nobody has said or even suggested that.
So before you didn't have an opinion but now you have an opinion and that is that mine or 'some' opinions are 'over the top assessments'?

Remember your view that women my age couldn't have an opinion on gaming or games? What qualifies you to comment here...
Not saying you can't or anything, but what?

I'm holding you to the same standard, how can you who have zero experience being a woman, or trans claim that my or 'some' opinions are over the top?

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions.

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions.

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

Aren't you being just as self important in deciding that other people are pretending their opinions? You don't know how other people think.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Aren't you being just as self important in deciding that other people are pretending their opinions? You don't know how other people think.

I'm sharing my opinion, anyone who wants to disagree is free to do so... that's entirely different from assuming that any and all posts that don't mention someone by name are "about you", as Kizzy has done at least 3 times with my posts recently. I am rarely, if ever, talking about Kizzy in these posts .

[Toy Soldier]

Also, I didn't say that anyone was "pretending their opinion", I said I'm interested in knowing what actually lies behind those opinions, because (for me) a lot of it doesn't quite add up .

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Maru

I disagree. I think people shouldn't hide their true beliefs (their real identity) because a mob mentality could develop. That's part of the issue. Nobody wants to be called racist or some other -phobic word. So people hide their true opinion and craft false personas. When you add it all up, it makes a toxic environment, because it means that everything is--at best--"true" only on a surface level.

That doesn't sound like the open world I'd want myself or my children to grow up in... anyway, beating a dead horse I think with Twitter because it's already too far gone imo ... I think I will just stop using social media entirely and move my news feeds back to RSS.

Good Post Maru,we should be able to say how we truly feel, please or offend.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions.

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

You think that people are saying one thing but meaning another?... That's a very paranoid attitude, I'm not for a second suggesting you aimed this at me but rest assured I'm NOT in the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean... What I say is 99.9% of the time EXACTLY what I mean.

For clarification the post you made in relation to 'vitriolic' comments when I asked you for an example you QUOTED me... That might have been where I got the impression you were suggesting your reference included me.

I'm not going to apologise for your misleading accusation.
There are not that many people so deeply involved in this discussion that share my opinion but as you've stated categorically it isn't me I'll let you jab your little pointy finger at someone else.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Also, I didn't say that anyone was "pretending their opinion", I said I'm interested in knowing what actually lies behind those opinions, because (for me) a lot of it doesn't quite add up .

What's your theory columbo?..

[Marsh.]

Nothing better to help your cause about women's rights, feminism and sexism than a bit of sexism thrown at men. Never change TiBB.

[Maru]

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Nothing better to help your cause about women's rights, feminism and sexism than a bit of sexism thrown at men. Never change TiBB.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No, Kizzy, when you're sexist, you're sexist regardless of the attitude behind it.