Jeremy Corbyn the Labour Leader: Some Still Against him : a 2nd Jeremy Win 24/9/16

[bots]

I agree Joey, there needs to be appropriate checks and balances so that no one mad man can start a nuclear war. That needs to be balanced with the need to react swiftly when required. I'm not sure that a committee is ever the right solution, but something is needed for sure.

[joeysteele]

I agree Joey, there needs to be appropriate checks and balances so that no one mad man can start a nuclear war. That needs to be balanced with the need to react swiftly when required. I'm not sure that a committee is ever the right solution, but something is needed for sure.

Thank you for that,I love your username,bitontheslide.

Yeah, I toss that around as to a committee,however I think a good debate on the issue is required.
Even in the end just perhaps a handful of people of quality to make the decision, is for me at any rate, far more welcome than it being laid at the feet of just one individual, no matter his/her position on the issue.

[arista]

Nice to have Owen Jones
talking about Labours error

On D. P. BBC2HD

I record it to get to bits good enough for China
and China Education

[lostalex]

So now Corbyn is saying he's going to negotiate with argentina about the malvinas islands? that means he's going to allow argentinians to settle there. I agree with him on this issue, but if i was british i would be unhappy bout this.

[arista]

So now Corbyn is saying he's going to negotiate with argentina about the malvinas islands? that means he's going to allow argentinians to settle there. I agree with him on this issue, but if i was british i would be unhappy bout this.


Yes all those men that Died backin that War

and JC as PM
wants another conflict with the locals on our Falklands


Crazy

[Northern Monkey]

[/B]

That is a fair point arista,however I still say, this decision to press the button should not just fall with one person.
I myself would prefer a nuclear committee to decide if such action was needed,with all Parties represented at Westminster and of course the Cabinet and PM of the day part of that committee.

Maybe my original thought on that was too inclusive and too large but the fact it would need a majority to decide the action,for or against it, is what would carry the day.

I fear a trigger happy PM as much as I would a very hesitant one to press the button.
For me, this should not be a decision just for one person to make,the whole Parliament should really make it,not just the govt.
In that scenario, whether you had a PM who would or wouldn't would not then matter.
There are many other things a PM needs to do, whether they would make a poor,fair or good PM should not hinge on one decision they would never likely have to make hopefully.

I hope to see a change as to it only being a PMs decision,that is why a whole open National debate on Trident and our nuclear stance is, in my view, badly needed now for the future.In principle this is sensible to ensure that some crazy leader did'nt launch our missiles and destroy us all.However i think in the end the decision has fall on the leader because it may have to be made quickly with about 6 minutes or so warning.If there was a nuclear attack on us i believe that is about how long we would have to respond iirc.In that scenario there would be no time to take it to a committee of sorts.It would be a good idea if it was us who wanted to strike first but hopefully that would never happen.

[MTVN]

Nice to have Owen Jones
talking about Labours error

On D. P. BBC2HD

I record it to get to bits good enough for China
and China Education

Will they like Owen's Jolly Sailor test in China

[arista]

Will they like Owen's Jolly Sailor test in China


It will show Students how Complex
Brit Politics is.


I guess some China based Female students may like him,
http://www.biggreenbookshop.com/images/uploads/owenj.JPG

[arista]

MTVN
could be my Sub Editor
but all the money he would earn - may get him
well happy

[joeysteele]

In principle this is sensible to ensure that some crazy leader did'nt launch our missiles and destroy us all.However i think in the end the decision has fall on the leader because it may have to be made quickly with about 6 minutes or so warning.If there was a nuclear attack on us i believe that is about how long we would have to respond iirc.In that scenario there would be no time to take it to a committee of sorts.It would be a good idea if it was us who wanted to strike first but hopefully that would never happen.

I agree with all that.
I do still think the impulsive decision of one individual only is not the right way.
I agree time could be a very urgent factor but I do think any PM would first still consult some of his cabinet at least.

If even 3,4 or a few more were the decision makers as to this, I think that could still be a decision made with great haste if needed to be.

[Kizzy]

Our nukes are obsolete, they can he intercepted and destroyed before they hit their target, now is as good a time as any to get rid. We can't afford them even if we sold the rest of London and threw in Hull as a free gift!

[arista]

Today JC went to 2 French ports today
to see the Illegals

Video report:
http://news.sky.com/video/1628390/corbyn-camp-conditions-appalling

[DemolitionRed]

[/B]

That is a fair point arista,however I still say, this decision to press the button should not just fall with one person.


It doesn't fall on one person Joey,
Washington’s influence on Trident means that it has a de facto power of veto.
And if the US pulled the plug on the UK nuclear program, Trident would be immediately unable to fire, making the submarines little more than expensive, undersea follies.

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-trident-nuclear-program/

[DemolitionRed]

None of us know what's presently being discussed behind closed doors and we are not going to know until this summer. One thing for sure, this is not or doesn’t have to be an an ‘All or Nothing decision’. There has to be other options on the table, including land based NW's which would cost considerably less.
The Lib Dems idea of downsizing our sea deterrence (CASD) with the option to build additional submarines that will only patrol during more permanent stand offs, is another option.
An Anglo-French defence has also been suggested.

What we actually need is a flexibility without going OTT and its not just the lefties that hold this view. There are enough conservative ministers who don’t feel Cameron should be pushing for the full re-build of Trident and there are enough Labour ministers who think we should be fully re-building Trident.

This should not be a right wing versus left wing rhetoric because this is about the defence of a country and not about our own political party preferences.

[Kizzy]

None of us know what's presently being discussed behind closed doors and we are not going to know until this summer. One thing for sure, this is not or doesn’t have to be an an ‘All or Nothing decision’. There has to be other options on the table, including land based NW's which would cost considerably less.
The Lib Dems idea of downsizing our sea deterrence (CASD) with the option to build additional submarines that will only patrol during more permanent stand offs, is another option.
An Anglo-French defence has also been suggested.

What we actually need is a flexibility without going OTT and its not just the lefties that hold this view. There are enough conservative ministers who don’t feel Cameron should be pushing for the full re-build of Trident and there are enough Labour ministers who think we should be the fully re-building Trident.

This should not be a right wing versus left wing rhetoric because this is about the defence of a country and not about our own political party preferences.

Quell surprise, got to love the French :)

[arista]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03557/BOB240116_3557359k.jpg

[Kizzy]

Haha, seems that way at times still yet to find anyone who disagrees with anything the guy says as opposed to the idea of him.

[arista]

JC was live on This Morning ITV1HD

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/25/14/308F13E100000578-3415575-image-m-44_1453733305922.jpg
[Labour leader spoke out after visiting the filthy, sodden camps in Calais ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3415575/Jeremy-Corbyn-demands-Home-Office-loosen-rules-claim-connection-Britain-in.html#ixzz3yJSbOagq

[arista]

JC was Live On SkyNewsHD at his CND demo,
London

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/27/449645/default/v1/gettyimages-512615472-1-589x442.jpg
http://news.sky.com/story/1649840/corbyn-joins-thousands-in-trident-protest

Sadly not on BBC News

[Kizzy]

Not on the BBC? Surprise surprise :/

[Alf]

We can't afford them even if we sold the rest of London and threw in Hull as a free gift!
Oy! Not so much of it thank you very much, we're more than a free gift, we are culture, come and visit in 2017.

[MTVN]

Typical Corbyn, rather spend his time addressing mickey mouse student rallies than being a proper leader of the opposition

[joeysteele]

I would like to see more aloof Politicians get out to the real people and discuss and debate things with them,both on things they agree on and things they don't.

As for the really today, really, is anyone now surprised he wanted to go there, no matter what position he holds now.
He has been part of this kind of movement since he was 16 for goodness sake,whether we agree with his views is neither her nor there.
He has stood solid and never wavered personally on the issue,I actually admire that and just wish more politicians who a great number now seem to thinks they are above the people who elect them,got to mingle with people and they may just learn some amazing things from the ordinary people.

[Kizzy]

And if he hadn't supported the organisation he's been campaigning for since he was 16 that would be spun as a negative too *sigh*

[joeysteele]

And if he hadn't supported the organisation he's been campaigning for since he was 16 that would be spun as a negative too *sigh*

It would indeed Kizzy, it would go something like, 'he is supposed to be a man of principle yet he turned his back on this because he is now leader of the opposition'.

I actually admire him and his sincerity for the issue even tough I don't share the full way he would like to be able to proceed on this.

[MTVN]

Hang on aren't the Labour party supposed to be carrying out a review of their Trident policy? Doesn't it slightly undermine that review when the party leader is addressing anti-Trident rallies? Does't exactly suggest that the review is going to give equal hearing to both sides of the argument

[Kizzy]

Bit presumptuous, if it is found that the will of the party is for trident then as leader he will succumb or leave.

[MTVN]

Presumptuous of him to continue as a strong anti-Trident activist I would say when he's supposed to be overseeing a review of policy in that regard. Wouldn't be happy if I was a Labour member

[Kizzy]

Long held principles are a virtue, I'd class them as a positive in a politician.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/27/449662/default/v1/cegrab-20160227-162847-407-1-736x414.jpg

JC today

[MTVN]

Shame he is not as passionate about our EU membership and spent the day at this rally rather than campaigning for Remain like the rest of the Labour party today

[MTVN]

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has caused outrage among his own party after snubbing plans to spend the day campaigning against Brexit.

Instead, the leader addressed a crowd estimated to have been in the many tens of thousands, who gathered in London in the biggest anti-nuclear demonstration for a generation.

Many Labour MPs shared photographs of themselves out and about today across the UK, clutching 'Labour In' banners and discussing the upcoming referendum with members of the public.

But Labour activists and supporters were quick to point out Mr Corbyn's conspicuous absence from pro-EU effort.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3467297/Labour-fury-Corbyn-addresses-anti-Trident-rally-snubbing-party-s-day-campaigning-against-Brexit.html#ixzz41PYXAcmn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Kizzy]

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has caused outrage among his own party after snubbing plans to spend the day campaigning against Brexit.

Instead, the leader addressed a crowd estimated to have been in the many tens of thousands, who gathered in London in the biggest anti-nuclear demonstration for a generation.

Many Labour MPs shared photographs of themselves out and about today across the UK, clutching 'Labour In' banners and discussing the upcoming referendum with members of the public.

But Labour activists and supporters were quick to point out Mr Corbyn's conspicuous absence from pro-EU effort.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3467297/Labour-fury-Corbyn-addresses-anti-Trident-rally-snubbing-party-s-day-campaigning-against-Brexit.html#ixzz41PYXAcmn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Oh is there just one day designated to campaigning to remain in the EU? I thought there would be plenty of opportunity before the referendum.
Shame other Labour MPs couldn't have supported him in this campaign seeing as it lacks the gravitas it should have.

[Northern Monkey]

What nob.God help us and Europe if he ever got his way with Russias ever growing plans for expansionism.This is why he will never be PM.His total disregard for the security of the country will stop him ever being a serious contenter.Only 23% of the electorate actually like him.Only the £3ers think he's any good.

[Kizzy]

What nob.God help us and Europe if he ever got his way with Russias ever growing plans for expansionism.This is why he will never be PM.His total disregard for the security of the country will stop him ever being a serious contenter.Only 23% of the electorate actually like him.Only the £3ers think he's any good.

What's a £3er? :/

[Alf]

He's basically Kitten from Big Brother 5


https://theworldturnedupsidedownne.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/jezza-aparted.jpg

[kirklancaster]

What nob.God help us and Europe if he ever got his way with Russias ever growing plans for expansionism.This is why he will never be PM.His total disregard for the security of the country will stop him ever being a serious contenter.Only 23% of the electorate actually like him.Only the £3ers think he's any good.

As many as 23%? I smell inflated figures. :hee:

[kirklancaster]

He's basically Kitten from Big Brother 5


https://theworldturnedupsidedownne.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/jezza-aparted.jpg

:laugh: Just the same moron but older and more moronic.

[Kizzy]

I see a principled guy who stands up for what he believes in, fair play to him.

[billy123]

Racists everywhere will be clutching at straws in a desperate attempt to discredit him. :joker:

[Northern Monkey]

What's a £3er? :/The very people who voted him as leader.Lefties and Tories who wanted to **** up the Labour party.

[Kizzy]

The very people who voted him as leader.Lefties and Tories who wanted to **** up the Labour party.

I don't think many still subscribe to that spin.

[joeysteele]

I saw nothing wrong at all with his speaking at the rally,this as said before is something he has devoted his life to since being 16.

Alan Johnson is the Labour head of the 'in' campaign,obviously the PM has to be saying more as it is he who won the deal with the EU.

Indeed too, the Labour party is doing a review of the Trident issue and holding a debate internally as to same,however no one is in any doubt that Corbyn is against it while most Labour MPs are for it,
The Labour movement at large is likely against but we need to see what is eventually decided and recommended.

Jeremy Corbyn has said he would want Trident not renewed,now that with no surprise at all to anyone is his position, it is not yet the position of the party.

Whatever is decided and if it is to renew Trident or look to reduce it by one submarine or scrap it,then no matter what Corbyn's preferred position may be,he will have to accept the conclusion that is recommended to become firm policy.

Pure and simple.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't think many still subscribe to that spin.

Labour have alot of new members.Only 40% of current Labour members were there when Milliband became leader.Labour membership is dominated by Corbynistas alot of which paid their £3.00 to get him in.However they don't represent the electorate as only 23% like him.It's the voters who count.Even the majority of Labour MP's are in favour renewing Trident.Hence my prediction that Corbyn will not be PM.I would guess that a big reason for that would be the stance he has on the security of our country.

[Northern Monkey]

A strange coincidence that 60% of Labour members are new and Corbyn won his leadership on a 60% win?

I think not.

[Kizzy]

Ah well the tories got in on 36% so anything could happen eh? Funny how 1000s of postal votes went awol....

[MTVN]

Let's be frank though we all know that Corbyn doesn't really care about the EU, he's taken a Eurosceptic stance on basically every EU issue since its formation. I suspect that really he'd love to be campaigning for out with his old comrades like Dennis Skinner and Galloway but has been too pressured into supporting Remain. Probably loved the chance to divert his focus away from the issue by speaking at an anti-Trident rally.

[arista]

Ex-Greek Minister Varoufakis To Advise Corbyn

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/9/13/417860/default/v1/cegrab-20150913-154744-159-1-736x414.jpg


[Former Greek finance minister
Yanis Varoufakis has won a new role
advising Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.
Mr Varoufakis quit the Greek government
in July last year after refusing to accept
the terms of a third bailout,
which imposed further austerity measures
on the debt-stricken country.]


http://news.sky.com/story/1650585/ex-greek-minister-varoufakis-to-advise-corbyn

[MTVN]

lol

[arista]

Come On
He is most clever

[joeysteele]

Bit presumptuous, if it is found that the will of the party is for trident then as leader he will succumb or leave.

Exactly Kizzy, what he wants and what he gets can be 2 different things.
As with just about all leaders of all parties in fact on various issues.

He will have to accept the position Labour decide to take on Trident even if it is against him.
I somehow now don't think he will lead Labour into the 2020 election anyway.I have a feeling he will leave a lot of strong policy making behind him for someone else to argue to the Nation for.

That in itself will however have been, and will go down as a considerable achievement for Jeremy Corbyn.

[Northern Monkey]

Ex-Greek Minister Varoufakis To Advise Corbyn

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/9/13/417860/default/v1/cegrab-20150913-154744-159-1-736x414.jpg


[Former Greek finance minister
Yanis Varoufakis has won a new role
advising Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.
Mr Varoufakis quit the Greek government
in July last year after refusing to accept
the terms of a third bailout,
which imposed further austerity measures
on the debt-stricken country.]


http://news.sky.com/story/1650585/ex-greek-minister-varoufakis-to-advise-corbynBloody hell.We don't need him advising us on money issues.:laugh:

[arista]

Bloody hell.We don't need him advising us on money issues.:laugh:



Ideal for Labour

[MTVN]

Corbyn addressing the PLP for the first time this year today, only taken him two months. Anyone would think he's putting off meeting with his own MPs or something

[Kizzy]

Bloody hell.We don't need him advising us on money issues.:laugh:

Who do the tories ask?... Mr Wonga, when you want to exploit you have to consult with the best.

[Northern Monkey]

Who do the tories ask?... Mr Wonga, when you want to exploit you have to consult with the best.Very possibly:laugh:

[Kizzy]

Bloody hell.We don't need him advising us on money issues.:laugh:

Why not?

[arista]

PMQ's


JC
moaned about the lack of Free Child Care
Promised in 2013.

But The PM
won that ,
as due to a Court Case
it was slowed up and
set for 2017 start.

[DemolitionRed]

PMQ's


JC
moaned about the lack of Free Child Care
Promised in 2013.

But The PM
won that ,
as due to a Court Case
it was slowed up and
set for 2017 start.

Won what? what court case?

[joeysteele]

PMQ's


JC
moaned about the lack of Free Child Care
Promised in 2013.

But The PM
won that ,
as due to a Court Case
it was slowed up and
set for 2017 start.

I agree this was his worst PMQs for me, what he should have pressed home was that a good few places say the free child care promised ,they will probably not be able to provide under current plans.

[arista]

JC has said in a Non Labour meeting (Goldsmith University)
we should allow Hookers
legal.

Upsetting some Labour MP women.






[He added that this was his personal opinion rather than party policy.]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3477692/Corbyn-angers-female-MPs-calling-prostitution-legal-civilised.html#ixzz420r3Zawb

[smudgie]

JC has said in a Non Labour meeting (Goldsmith University)
we should allow Hookers
legal.

Upsetting some Labour MP women.






[He added that this was his personal opinion rather than party policy.]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3477692/Corbyn-angers-female-MPs-calling-prostitution-legal-civilised.html#ixzz420r3Zawb

Something I can agree with him about. :clap2:

[DemolitionRed]

Something I can agree with him about. :clap2:

Me too. Because Amsterdam and certain states in America allow prostitution but not street walkers, its all done safely and above board.

[arista]

JC today at PMQ's
was on about benefits cuts.

But thats a change of money
of how they get it,
the MP in the studio , confirmed.

[joeysteele]

JC today at PMQ's
was on about benefits cuts.

But thats a change of money
of how they get it,
the MP in the studio , confirmed.

No it won't be.
it will be reliant on the claimant being able to get PIP,if a claimant is too ill to work at present they go in either the support group of ESA or the WRAG group of ESA,

Many do not get or claim currently DLA.

They get a bit less than ESA support group in WRAG but substantially more than Jobseekers rate presently in WRAG.

Anyone claiming ESA in 2017,will still be in either Support group or Wrag,but he intends to take around £30 from the rate of ESA WRAG group,despite the individual still being considered unfit for work at that time.

If they then claim and get PIP,obviously they will get more money but if they are melready on DLA then claiming ESA for the first time and put in the Wrag group, they will get the new rate of ESA at the approx. £30 less figure with no extra added to DLA or PIP.

It is a penalising of someone sick and disabled and it is wrong,totally wrong.

What annoyed me with Corbyn today was that he did not come back with a follow up question on that and expose that misleading statement the PM made as to this cut and it being made up near fully by PIP..

[kirklancaster]

Me too. Because Amsterdam and certain states in America allow prostitution but not street walkers, its all done safely and above board.

This is pure baloney which is only supported by sources which have a vested interest in promoting Holland's Tourist Industry in general and/or Legalized Prostitution in particular.

The sad truth is that Holland's Prostitution Laws are flawed and failed:

Why even Amsterdam doesn’t want legal brothels

The Dutch experiment in legalised prostitution has been a disaster by
Julie Bindel

In 2000 the Dutch government decided to make it even easier for pimps, traffickers and punters by legalising the already massive and highly visible brothel trade. Their logic was as simple as it was deceptive: to make things safer for everyone. Make it a job like any other. Once the women were liberated from the underworld, the crooks, drug dealers and people traffickers would drift away.

Twelve years on, and we can now see the results of this experiment. Rather than afford better protection for the women, it has simply increased the market. Rather than confine the brothels to a discrete (and avoidable) part of the city, the sex industry has spilt out all over Amsterdam — including on-street. Rather than be given rights in the ‘workplace’, the prostitutes have found the pimps are as brutal as ever. The government-funded union set up to protect them has been shunned by the vast majority of prostitutes, who remain too scared to complain.

Pimps, under legalisation, have been reclassified as managers and businessmen. Abuse suffered by the women is now called an ‘occupational hazard’, like a stone dropped on a builder’s toe. Sex tourism has grown faster in Amsterdam than the regular type of tourism: as the city became the brothel of Europe, women have been imported by traffickers from Africa, Eastern Europe and Asia to meet the demand. In other words, the pimps remained but became legit — violence was still prevalent but part of the job, and trafficking increased. Support for the women to leave prostitution became almost nonexistent. The innate murkiness of the job has not been washed away by legal benediction.

The Dutch government hoped to play the role of the honourable pimp, taking its share in the proceeds of prostitution through taxation. But only 5 per cent of the women registered for tax, because no one wants to be known as a ***** — however legal it may be. Illegality has simply taken a new form, with an increase in trafficking, unlicensed brothels and pimping; with policing completely out of the picture, it was easier to break the laws that remained. To pimp out women from non-EU countries, desperate for a new life, remains illegal. But it’s never been easier.

Legalisation has imposed brothels on areas all over Holland, whether they want them or not. Even if a city or town opposes establishing a brothel, it must allow at least one — not doing so is contrary to the basic federal right to work. To many Dutch, legality and decency have been irreconcilably divorced. It has been a social, legal and economic failure — and the madness, finally, is coming to an end.

The brothel boom is over. A third of Amsterdam’s bordellos have been closed due to the involvement of organised criminals and drug dealers and the increase in trafficking of women. Police now acknowledge that the red-light district has mutated into a global hub for human trafficking and money laundering. The streets have been infiltrated by grooming gangs seeking out young, vulnerable girls and marketing them to men as virgins who will do whatever they are told. Many of those involved in Amsterdam’s regular tourist trade — the museums and canals — fear that their visitors are vanishing along with the city’s reputation.

I was last there with Roger Matthews, a professor of Criminology at Kent University and a renowned expert on the sex trade. The politicians he spoke to confess that the legislation has made a total pig’s ear of an already unsavoury situation. So the repair work is starting — for what good it will do. Women who rent the windows will soon be obliged to register as prostitutes. This will be as ineffective as the obligation on them to pay tax. When the fake and government-funded union supposedly representing those involved in prostitution did a massive membership recruitment post-legalisation, only a hundred joined, and most of those were strippers and lap dancers.

Rather than remove the sleaziness of the red light district, it made the area more depressing than ever — full of drunken sex tourists who act as window shoppers, pointing and laughing at the women they see. Local women pass the streets with their heads down, trying not to see the other women displayed like cuts of meat in a butcher’s shop. Men can be seen entering the brothels, trying to barter down the price. Others come out zipping up their jeans. Many of the women look very young, all of them bored, with the majority sitting on stools in underwear playing with their phones.

Nowhere else in the world is street prostitution legal, because people do not want it in plain sight. Where there is a street sex trade, women are accosted on their way home by punters, and often condoms, drugs paraphernalia and pimps are visible. But the Netherlands decided in 1996 that street prostitution was a decent way to earn money and created several ‘tolerance zones’ for men to safely rent a vagina, anus or mouth for a few minutes. Cars drive into cubicles. This being the Netherlands, there is a special section for cyclists. Keep prostitution green.

The day after the Amsterdam zone opened, more than a hundred residents from nearby neighbourhoods took to the streets in protest. It took six years for the mayor to admit in public that the experiment had been a disaster, a magnet for trafficked women, drug dealers and underage girls. Zones in Rotterdam, The Hague and Heerlen have shut down in similar circumstances. The direction of travel is clear: legalisation will be repealed. Legalisation has not been emancipation. It has instead resulted in the appalling, inhuman, degrading treatment of women, because it declares the buying and selling of human flesh acceptable. And as the Dutch government reforms itself from pimp to protector, it will have time to reflect on the damage done to the women caught in this calamitous social experiment.

[Kizzy]

Where is this copy and pasted from... Ah, the spectator.

[Vicky.]

I see no reason why prostitution shouldn't be legal. I dont't really see it as much different to those women who get all dolled up to pull, expect the guy to buy the drinks all night then go home with him. And thats not illegal or even frowned upon...its seen as normal

[kirklancaster]

Where is this copy and pasted from... Ah, the spectator.

I reproduced the full article and credited the author, so a link was unnecessary but what is your point?

"Why even Amsterdam doesn’t want legal brothels

The Dutch experiment in legalised prostitution has been a disaster by
Julie Bindel"

[bots]

I see no reason why prostitution shouldn't be legal. I dont't really see it as much different to those women who get all dolled up to pull, expect the guy to buy the drinks all night then go home with him. And thats not illegal or even frowned upon...its seen as normal

Should women be taxed for receiving benefits in kind in the form of drinks/meals on a night out:think:

[kirklancaster]

I see no reason why prostitution shouldn't be legal. I dont't really see it as much different to those women who get all dolled up to pull, expect the guy to buy the drinks all night then go home with him. And thats not illegal or even frowned upon...its seen as normal

My post was a rebuttal of the very authorative but wrong claim that legalised prostitution in Amsterdam was 'Safe and above board', when it has proved to be neither.

[Vicky.]

Should women be taxed for receiving benefits in kind in the form of drinks/meals on a night out:think:

Not sure how this would be implemented tbf :p

I may be slightly biased on this as I really really disagree with people who go out specirfically to get guys to spend money on them. Those women who complain about being asked to pay their half of the bill and stuff..just nah

But seriously, I do think prostitution should be legal. Its a persons choice what they wish to do with their body, theres no issue if they are not being paid in 'cash' so I don't understand the issue if they are. If anything its probably safer to sleep with a prostitute than it is to take your average 'met on a night out, got her slaughtered and took her home' lass :joker:

[Kizzy]

I reproduced the full article and credited the author, so a link was unnecessary but what is your point?

"Why even Amsterdam doesn’t want legal brothels

The Dutch experiment in legalised prostitution has been a disaster by
Julie Bindel"


My point being how does this Spectator report have any relevance initially?
Here is some information
http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/media-centre/city-hall/dossier-red-light-district/red-light-district-faq

[bots]

My post was a rebuttal of the very authorative but wrong claim that legalised prostitution in Amsterdam was 'Safe and above board', when it has proved to be neither.

Its all about regulation. If prostitution was regulated, there wouldn't be any sex slavery, clients and ladies would be checked for diseases etc. Amsterdam is a step in the right direction as it doesn't force prostitution underground where women can be victimised.

[kirklancaster]

Its all about regulation. If prostitution was regulated, there wouldn't be any sex slavery, clients and ladies would be checked for diseases etc. Amsterdam is a step in the right direction as it doesn't force prostitution underground where women can be victimised.

Did you even read the article by Julie Bindel which I posted?

Prostitution has been legalised since 2000 in Holland, but it has NOT eradicated sex slavery - it has increased it, and medical checks of prostitutes in not mandatory.

The pimps and sadists and sex traffickers have not been eradicated either- they have increased in numbers.

All legitimising prostituition has done is moved the whole sordid business from under the 'illegal' umbrella to the 'legal' one.

[bots]

Did you even read the article by Julie Bindel which I posted?

Prostitution has been legalised since 2000 in Holland, but it has NOT eradicated sex slavery - it has increased it, and medical checks of prostitutes in not mandatory.

The pimps and sadists and sex traffickers have not been eradicated either- they have increased in numbers.

All legitimising prostituition has done is moved the whole sordid business from under the 'illegal' umbrella to the 'legal' one.

I don't believe everything I read. I use my own observations as well. I find that to be much more reliable.

By your language, you are clearly against prostitution and so coming at it from a biased perspective. Thats the last source I would trust I'm afraid.

[kirklancaster]

My point being how does this Spectator report have any relevance initially?
Here is some information
http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/media-centre/city-hall/dos
sier-red-light-district/red-light-district-faq

I have already read your linked article and it falls under those sources which I pointed out in my opening paragraph:

"This is pure baloney which is only supported by sources which have a vested interest in promoting Holland's Tourist Industry in general and/or Legalized Prostitution in particular."

And Julie Bindel's 'Spectator Report' is independant and does not have any vested interest.

The facts claimed are readily checkable.

I have been many times to Amsterdam, have friends there and KNOW that Bindel's article is truthful.

Here's another article from a source which does not have a vested interest:

Why Amsterdam's Prostitution Laws are Still Failing to Protect or Empower Women
By Lily Rae

Amsterdam may be heralded as a hub for liberalism and social progression following its legalisation of prostitution in 1988 and consumption of marijuana.

However, after a significant number of brothels have been closed due to suspected criminal activity in the best known Red Light district of De Wallen in Amsterdam, alongside the nature of displaying women in windows like pieces of meat, it shows that the system has not worked.

I went to Amsterdam for the first time recently, at the ripe old age of 23.

I did all the things they tell you in the guidebooks – marvelled at the paintings in the Van Gogh Museum, climbed every leg-breaking step in Anne Frank's House, had coffee without milk at least three times a day, and ate my weight in Gouda cheese.

However, I didn't smoke a big reefer style doobie spliff joint, in case you were wondering, mainly because the last time I did that I stopped listening to the person I was having a conversation with and instead became obsessed by the notion that I had a big fat hamster face and everyone was laughing at it.

I also had a Febo burger, which was sensational – the radical idea behind Febo, a fast-food chain in Amsterdam, is essentially 24 hour vending machines serving up burgers, croquettes, kebabs and the like. The burger sits in a little heated booth behind a glass door, you pop a couple of Euros into the slot, the door opens and you've got a burger without the need for awkward human interaction.

Funnily enough, the way women lined the windows in De Wallen resembled that of a Febo snack - quick, easy, and on display for those who need a quick fix.

Lumped into the same category as visiting a museum, the zoo or a gallery, the Red Light District is what people rave about it when visiting Holland's capital city.

Lauding Amsterdam for its liberal-mindedness, observing (or visiting) the women in their 'iconic' window brothels in De Wallen, is a 'must-see'.

For those that aren't in the know – in Amsterdam, prostitution and the purchasing of sex is legal, and has been since 1988. Walking through the Red Light District is supposedly a fun, unique experience – countless people had reassured me that I "had to visit it", but I found the narrow, cobbled streets of De Wallen to be passively hostile, especially to women.

I couldn't help but keep my head down and rush through, trying to avoid the gaze of the girls – many of whom looked younger than me – displayed in the glass windows like cuts of meat. Like the sweaty Febo snacks, couped up in their display cabinets.

In fact, the whole Red Light experience made me uncomfortable and sad.

These women – or rather, their bodies – were being reduced to nothing more than a tourist attraction. The fact that a girl in this city is presented in much the same way as a burger in a fast-food joint is somewhat disturbing to me.

Is the System Actually Working?

Amsterdam City Council goes to great lengths to try and ensure the safety of the women working.

Police patrol the city; each room is equipped with a panic button; the women undergo regularly mandatory health checks and are encouraged to register their profession, to pay taxes.

The logic behind the legalisation of prostitution seems to be that by bringing the underworld into the light, the criminal aspect would surely dissolve.

In theory, women would be less likely to suffer abuse at the hands of pimps, less likely to be involved in human trafficking, and more likely to earn a decent wage.

And yet, the system hasn't worked – it's made things worse.

A prostitute in Amsterdam, a notoriously expensive city, will pay up to one hundred euro a night for the rent of a window.

She also has to pay a pimp, and pay taxes if she registers – though only 5% of prostitutes have actually registered for tax, perhaps for fear of the social stigma that comes with publicly announcing yourself as a prostitute.

Just in order to take some home for herself she'll have to have sex with ten to fifteen people per day. The vocal union for the sex workers, De Rode Draad, went bankrupt and closed down in 2009. In addition to this, 13 sex workers have been murdered in De Wallen since 1990.

After twenty years of legalised prostitution, the council ended up cutting down the Red Light district's brothels from 482 to 243 after bouts of criminal activity.

Why Legalising Prostitution is Rotten to the Core

De Wallen, for all its beautiful architecture and friendly people, is rotten to the core, much like the concept of legalised prostitution.

As these bored-looking girls stand behind their red-lit glass doors, looking out as much as we look in, we are supposed to feel better in the knowledge that this profession is sanctioned by the government, which in turn means that the government itself will profit off the sex trade.

However, this doesn't automatically mean that these women have a choice in their work. I'm told there are many women who do enjoy prostitution; I've yet to hear of one, though, and bear in mind that the average age of a woman entering the sex trade is fourteen.

The problem is that the legalising of prostitutes creates a higher demand for these women. That's where human trafficking comes in, and Amsterdam – along with much of Eastern Europe – is one of the most heavily trafficked places in the world, according to United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).

In 2008, six men were convicted of the "largest case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands."

According to the investigation: "some of the victims were compelled to have breast enlargement surgery, and one defendant was convicted of forcing at least one woman to have an abortion.

"Women were beaten and forced to sit in icy water to avoid bruising. They also were tattooed."

In 2009, two men were jailed for forcing around 140 girls between the ages of 16 and 23 into prostitution in Europe – and by controlling them using voodoo.

A now famous campaign from Stop the Traffik showed several window girls breaking into a dance routine; following the routine a huge screen displayed the message "Every year, thousands of women are promised a dance career in Western Europe. Sadly, they end up here."

Amsterdam's human trafficking problem is out of control, and try as they might to maintain a facade of safety for sex-workers, the fact remains: it is one of the most dangerous professions in the world and there is no guarantee of safety.

Amsterdam's attempt to legalise prostitution, 'the oldest profession in the world', has failed, resulting in the acceptance of selling under-age, trafficked women as a tourist attraction.

Traffickers are making a mint off slavery, thanks to this 'liberal' concept.

Before we can even begin to consider the successful legalising of sex work, we must find a way to end the exploitation rampant in the sex trade – for a start, those who pay to have sex with human beings are rapists and should be prosecuted as such. Having sex with someone just so you can pay your rent is not consent.

Despite its honourable intentions, Amsterdam's legalisation of prostitution is not liberal or empowering - it perpetuates the notion that women are the oldest form of currency.

[smudgie]

Legalising the oldest profession is win win.
We can take the Amsterdam model and learn from their mistakes.
It would not only protect the women, it also protects the
punter.
Plenty of industrial estates that could be used, away from the general public.
Taxman gains as well so we all win.:shrug:

[kirklancaster]

Legalising the oldest profession is win win.
We can take the Amsterdam model and learn from their mistakes.
It would not only protect the women, it also protects the
punter.
Plenty of industrial estates that could be used, away from the general public.
Taxman gains as well so we all win.:shrug:

Do not get me wrong Smudgie - I have NO thoughts or preference on 'Legalised Prostitution in the UK' one way or the other. I really do not care.

My intervention on this thread was in response to yet another sweeping statement written with presumption and claiming to be authorative, stating that 'Prostitution in Amsterdam is safe and above board' when it most certainly is not.

[joeysteele]

Legalising the oldest profession is win win.
We can take the Amsterdam model and learn from their mistakes.
It would not only protect the women, it also protects the
punter.
Plenty of industrial estates that could be used, away from the general public.
Taxman gains as well so we all win.:shrug:

Yet again,I have to agree with you as to this one Smudgie.

It is also called I believe the 'oldest profession' in the World,however yes a good post from you again above and it says just about all I would say on the issue too.

[DemolitionRed]

Prostitution is fine as long as women (or men) who work as prostitutes do it from their own will, and are not exploited. The sex workers should be respected and their rights protected.

Criminals will always find ways round the law. Prostitution has been accepted in Amsterdam since the 1800s and in 1911, a law was made which made it illegal for anyone other than the prostitute to make a profit from her trade. Since 1988 prostitution has been recognised as a legal trade in Amsterdam but in 2000 a new law was to ensure prostitution was operated as a licensed business that dutifully pay their taxes.
Problems with exploitation and the prostitution of minors has always gone on but since 2000, the authorities are encouraged to be more pro-active and have openly encouraged the red light district to set up charities like Dutch: De Rode Draad, Prostitutie Informatie Centrum and Regenboog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Thread_%28De_Rode_Draad%29

[Kizzy]

I have already read your linked article and it falls under those sources which I pointed out in my opening paragraph:

"This is pure baloney which is only supported by sources which have a vested interest in promoting Holland's Tourist Industry in general and/or Legalized Prostitution in particular."

And Julie Bindel's 'Spectator Report' is independant and does not have any vested interest.

The facts claimed are readily checkable.

I have been many times to Amsterdam, have friends there and KNOW that Bindel's article is truthful.

Here's another article from a source which does not have a vested interest:

Why Amsterdam's Prostitution Laws are Still Failing to Protect or Empower Women
By Lily Rae

Amsterdam may be heralded as a hub for liberalism and social progression following its legalisation of prostitution in 1988 and consumption of marijuana.

However, after a significant number of brothels have been closed due to suspected criminal activity in the best known Red Light district of De Wallen in Amsterdam, alongside the nature of displaying women in windows like pieces of meat, it shows that the system has not worked.

I went to Amsterdam for the first time recently, at the ripe old age of 23.

I did all the things they tell you in the guidebooks – marvelled at the paintings in the Van Gogh Museum, climbed every leg-breaking step in Anne Frank's House, had coffee without milk at least three times a day, and ate my weight in Gouda cheese.

However, I didn't smoke a big reefer style doobie spliff joint, in case you were wondering, mainly because the last time I did that I stopped listening to the person I was having a conversation with and instead became obsessed by the notion that I had a big fat hamster face and everyone was laughing at it.

I also had a Febo burger, which was sensational – the radical idea behind Febo, a fast-food chain in Amsterdam, is essentially 24 hour vending machines serving up burgers, croquettes, kebabs and the like. The burger sits in a little heated booth behind a glass door, you pop a couple of Euros into the slot, the door opens and you've got a burger without the need for awkward human interaction.

Funnily enough, the way women lined the windows in De Wallen resembled that of a Febo snack - quick, easy, and on display for those who need a quick fix.

Lumped into the same category as visiting a museum, the zoo or a gallery, the Red Light District is what people rave about it when visiting Holland's capital city.

Lauding Amsterdam for its liberal-mindedness, observing (or visiting) the women in their 'iconic' window brothels in De Wallen, is a 'must-see'.

For those that aren't in the know – in Amsterdam, prostitution and the purchasing of sex is legal, and has been since 1988. Walking through the Red Light District is supposedly a fun, unique experience – countless people had reassured me that I "had to visit it", but I found the narrow, cobbled streets of De Wallen to be passively hostile, especially to women.

I couldn't help but keep my head down and rush through, trying to avoid the gaze of the girls – many of whom looked younger than me – displayed in the glass windows like cuts of meat. Like the sweaty Febo snacks, couped up in their display cabinets.

In fact, the whole Red Light experience made me uncomfortable and sad.

These women – or rather, their bodies – were being reduced to nothing more than a tourist attraction. The fact that a girl in this city is presented in much the same way as a burger in a fast-food joint is somewhat disturbing to me.

Is the System Actually Working?

Amsterdam City Council goes to great lengths to try and ensure the safety of the women working.

Police patrol the city; each room is equipped with a panic button; the women undergo regularly mandatory health checks and are encouraged to register their profession, to pay taxes.

The logic behind the legalisation of prostitution seems to be that by bringing the underworld into the light, the criminal aspect would surely dissolve.

In theory, women would be less likely to suffer abuse at the hands of pimps, less likely to be involved in human trafficking, and more likely to earn a decent wage.

And yet, the system hasn't worked – it's made things worse.

A prostitute in Amsterdam, a notoriously expensive city, will pay up to one hundred euro a night for the rent of a window.

She also has to pay a pimp, and pay taxes if she registers – though only 5% of prostitutes have actually registered for tax, perhaps for fear of the social stigma that comes with publicly announcing yourself as a prostitute.

Just in order to take some home for herself she'll have to have sex with ten to fifteen people per day. The vocal union for the sex workers, De Rode Draad, went bankrupt and closed down in 2009. In addition to this, 13 sex workers have been murdered in De Wallen since 1990.

After twenty years of legalised prostitution, the council ended up cutting down the Red Light district's brothels from 482 to 243 after bouts of criminal activity.

Why Legalising Prostitution is Rotten to the Core

De Wallen, for all its beautiful architecture and friendly people, is rotten to the core, much like the concept of legalised prostitution.

As these bored-looking girls stand behind their red-lit glass doors, looking out as much as we look in, we are supposed to feel better in the knowledge that this profession is sanctioned by the government, which in turn means that the government itself will profit off the sex trade.

However, this doesn't automatically mean that these women have a choice in their work. I'm told there are many women who do enjoy prostitution; I've yet to hear of one, though, and bear in mind that the average age of a woman entering the sex trade is fourteen.

The problem is that the legalising of prostitutes creates a higher demand for these women. That's where human trafficking comes in, and Amsterdam – along with much of Eastern Europe – is one of the most heavily trafficked places in the world, according to United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).

In 2008, six men were convicted of the "largest case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands."

According to the investigation: "some of the victims were compelled to have breast enlargement surgery, and one defendant was convicted of forcing at least one woman to have an abortion.

"Women were beaten and forced to sit in icy water to avoid bruising. They also were tattooed."

In 2009, two men were jailed for forcing around 140 girls between the ages of 16 and 23 into prostitution in Europe – and by controlling them using voodoo.

A now famous campaign from Stop the Traffik showed several window girls breaking into a dance routine; following the routine a huge screen displayed the message "Every year, thousands of women are promised a dance career in Western Europe. Sadly, they end up here."

Amsterdam's human trafficking problem is out of control, and try as they might to maintain a facade of safety for sex-workers, the fact remains: it is one of the most dangerous professions in the world and there is no guarantee of safety.

Amsterdam's attempt to legalise prostitution, 'the oldest profession in the world', has failed, resulting in the acceptance of selling under-age, trafficked women as a tourist attraction.

Traffickers are making a mint off slavery, thanks to this 'liberal' concept.

Before we can even begin to consider the successful legalising of sex work, we must find a way to end the exploitation rampant in the sex trade – for a start, those who pay to have sex with human beings are rapists and should be prosecuted as such. Having sex with someone just so you can pay your rent is not consent.

Despite its honourable intentions, Amsterdam's legalisation of prostitution is not liberal or empowering - it perpetuates the notion that women are the oldest form of currency.

That link contains relevant, up to date objective information, the articles you keep posting in their entirety with no point of reference do not.

[Kizzy]

ki2JM6XFZ1k

[Northern Monkey]

I would have thought maybe farming or building or something would be the oldest proffession in the world.

[Livia]

ki2JM6XFZ1k

You realise this is Serious Debates, right? It's not Chat & Games.

[Livia]

I would have thought maybe farming or building or something would be the oldest proffession in the world.

I reckon it could be pimping.

Hey Monkey :-)

[Northern Monkey]

I reckon it could be pimping.

Hey Monkey :-)

Hey there:wink:

Before there was money what would the deal be though?A hand full of berries for a blowy or a pork loin for full massage?

[Livia]

Hey there:wink:

Before there was money what would the deal be though?A hand full of berries for a blowy or a pork loin for full massage?

I'm Jewish, we don't do pork. We do jewellery.

Anyway, whatever it was it was probably a woman doing it while the men sat at home scratching themselves.

[Northern Monkey]

I'm Jewish, we don't do pork. We do jewellery.

Anyway, whatever it was it was probably a woman doing it while the men sat at home scratching themselves.

Ah maybe a pearl necklace then?

[Livia]

Ah maybe a pearl necklace then?

LMAO... again: cheeky ****er!

[Northern Monkey]

LMAO... again: cheeky ****er!

:laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

LMAO... again: cheeky ****er!

Funny but after seeing you two fool around directly after you pulled someone else up on not being serious in 'serious debate', the word hypocrite comes to mind.

[Kizzy]

Funny but after seeing you two fool around directly after you pulled someone else up on not being serious in 'serious debate', the word hypocrite comes to mind.

Oh I don't even point that out anymore , past caring :laugh:

[Kizzy]

:cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2:

'Labour has drawn level with the Conservatives in an opinion poll for the first time since the 2015 general election.

Jeremy Corbyn’s party was up four points compared to last month in ICM’s monthly phone poll, at 36 per cent, while the Conservatives were down three to 36 per cent.

Labour on the up Tories in decline... keep it up Jezza!

The seven point shift has Labour up six points on its 30 per cent in the general election under Ed Miliband, and the Tories having neither gained nor lost support.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poll-jeremy-corbyn-labour-tories-voting-intention-general-election-first-time-leader-a6930721.html

[MTVN]

The poll, coming as it does amongst a series of weak opinion polls for Labour, is by definition an outlier – and would have to be backed up by further surveys if it were to signal a true shift in support


Yup. Meanwhile his personal approval ratings continue to be terrible and Labour is going to have a disaster in the May elections. Keep it up Jezza

[Kizzy]

Yup. Meanwhile his personal approval ratings continue to be terrible and Labour is going to have a disaster in the May elections. Keep it up Jezza

:nono: It's a good sign, don't underestimate the corbmiester!

[DemolitionRed]

Personal approval ratings change week to week, even day to day. I can't find any recent approval ratings (nothing beyond Jan of this year). Do you have an up to date source MTVN?

[MTVN]

Personal approval ratings change week to week, even day to day. I can't find any recent approval ratings (nothing beyond Jan of this year). Do you have an up to date source MTVN?

This was a ComRes/IoS poll from February, I feel like I've seen a more recent one than this but can't find it now:

http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/13/19/7-comres-poll.jpg

And this is from an FT article from 23 Feb:


Labour’s most pressing problem is its introspection, as highlighted in a new poll conducted by Ian Warren, one of Westminster’s most insightful data crunchers. The headline numbers are similar to what has been previously reported: Mr Corbyn’s net approval rating among the British public is a disastrous -24, while Labour voters put him on +17 and Labour members put him on +55. This represents an extraordinary 79-point difference between what ordinary voters think and what those in the Labour party think.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92171824-da3a-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html#axzz42sjHZImL

And these were the results of the most recent ComRes poll:

ComRes have their monthly online poll for the Indy on Sunday and Sunday Mirror tomorrow. Topline voting intention figures are CON 38%(-3), LAB 29%(+2), LDEM 7%(-2), UKIP 16%(+1), GRN 4%(+1). The Conservative lead has dropped five points since last month, but that still leaves it at nine points (ComRes’s online polls tend to produce the largest Conservative leads of all the companies, largely because of ComRes’s new turnout filter that is based on socio-economic data. The nine point lead is actually the smallest ComRes have shown in their online polls since the election – up until now they’ve shown a Conservative lead between 11 and 15 points). Full tabs are here.

Ahead of the budget there were also a few economic questions. More people think George Osborne is doing a bad job as Chancellor (41%) than a good job (31%), but Cameron & Osborne have a 16 point lead over Corbyn & McDonnell on which pair people would trust to run the country’s economy (45% to 29%).

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9649

[kirklancaster]

If WEAZEL GUMMIDGE CORBYN EVER BECOMES PM - I WILL PERSONALLY:

1) Swim the English Channel with White Dee Kelly strapped to my back.
2) Weave water.
3) Plait sawdust.
4) Cease a lifetime of working and claim benefits.
5) Start canvassing for the Labour Party.

But - let's face it - none of these are ever going to be necessary are they.

Not in the REAL world.

[DemolitionRed]

This is an interesting report by Richard Murphy.

Labour have borrowed less and repaid more than the Conservatives since 1979

Having produced information on government borrowings and repayments over a seventy year period, and in the process shown that curtailing the analysis after 62 years would not change the outcome, I have been challenged to produce further variations.

One, oddly demanded only by those of a right wing persuasion it seems, wanted the first eight years of data lopped off to match my ignoring the last eight. Those making the request seemed to think that the economic environment of the immediate postwar period might have given a result biased to Labour. I have to say I think that absurd: the contention is that Labour was as unable to manage this post-war environment in a way that it is suggested (by implication) that George Osborne has been unable to manage the last few. When the Attlee government transformed the economic environment forever in this short period the hollowness of that suggestion will be noted.

So, dismissing this idea as nonsense, let me instead do another variation instead, which is for the period from 1979 to date, which we can truly call the UK’s neoliberal era. For this period the data is as follows:
- See more at: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/14/labour-have-borrowed-less-and-repaid-more-than-the-conservatives-since-1979/#sthash.dyhv4APt.dpuf

[arista]

Yes DR

But on Corbyn
he has to get in Power first
and He Demands that the UK has NO Nukes at all?

I can not see him getting into Power
under Labour?

[DemolitionRed]

Its too early to tell yet and because people fear change and because Corbyn style politics have never been practised in Britain before, its going to take a huge amount of persuasion and a lot of disgruntled Brits to move Corbyn closer 10 Downing Street.

I think the Labour party are wise to sit back at this present time and watch the cluster feck of the Conservative government unfold. I think/hope, there's a game plan.

[arista]

Its too early to tell yet and because people fear change and because Corbyn style politics have never been practised in Britain before, its going to take a huge amount of persuasion and a lot of disgruntled Brits to move Corbyn closer 10 Downing Street.

I think the Labour party are wise to sit back at this present time and watch the cluster feck of the Conservative government unfold. I think/hope, there's a game plan.

I like him
and I do not Fear him,
but on this one Issue
and his party ( the bulk of it)
are about having Nukes.


You can not kick a debate down the long grass
and waste time on not
getting this Nuke Problem sorted
he will have to back down.

If he does not,
he will not get in power

[Kizzy]

If people sat down and thought about it rationally they'd realise nobody needs nukes. We didn't need them and the Labour party didn't want them the torys foisted them on us at great cost we could ill afford....like now.

[kirklancaster]

CORBYN AS PM = THE WINTER OF DISCONTENT REVISITED

The Winter of Discontent refers to the winter of 1978–79 in the United Kingdom, during which there were widespread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises, following the ongoing pay caps of the Labour Party government led by James Callaghan against Trades Union Congress opposition to control.

Oh those wonderful names; Mick McGahey, Arthur Scargill....:flutter:

[arista]

If people sat down and thought about it rationally they'd realise nobody needs nukes. We didn't need them and the Labour party didn't want them the torys foisted them on us at great cost we could ill afford....like now.


They have Kizzy
Corbyn has a handful with him.

But most of the Labour MP's
want Nuke Weapons ready.


Its still Not Sorted in the Fecking Labour Party
It matters to those MP's


Its stupid to say the rest of the world will disarm ?
Keep It Real

[joeysteele]

I like him
and I do not Fear him,
but on this one Issue
and his party ( the bulk of it)
are about having Nukes.


You can not kick a debate down the long grass
and waste time on not
getting this Nuke Problem sorted
he will have to back down.

If he does not,
he will not get in power


I would at this time vote to keep them,maybe reduce them by one if it was an option.

I would love the people to be asked this question in a referendum however.

Overall though,I agree with what you say in your post above.

[joeysteele]

We couldn't have a winter of discontent like the late 70s or indeed as to the early 70s with the Conservatives 3 day week and an never ending miners strike.

The rules on picketing and striking were massively overhauled rightly by Margaret Thatcher's Governments.
So a repeat of the nature of industrial action as it was in the 70s is extremely unlikely and near impossible.

Why there would even thought to be any massive industrial under Corbyn is a complete mystery to me. his policies would more likely than not greatly benefit workers and therefore make sure it wasn't necessary.

[Kizzy]

They have Kizzy
Corbyn has a handful with him.

But most of the Labour MP's
want Nuke Weapons ready.


Its still Not Sorted in the Fecking Labour Party
It matters to those MP's


Its stupid to say the rest of the world will disarm ?
Keep It Real

I'm not saying the rest of the world will disarm, that's not a good enough reason to arm though is it?
Some MPs want it now due to fearmongering, but is it worth it to bankrupt the nation?

[arista]

I'm not saying the rest of the world will disarm, that's not a good enough reason to arm though is it?
Some MPs want it now due to fearmongering, but is it worth it to bankrupt the nation?

Yes Some are with Corbyn
but Not Enough Votes.
Fecking FACT

[arista]

We couldn't have a winter of discontent like the late 70s or indeed as to the early 70s with the Conservatives 3 day week and an never ending miners strike.

The rules on picketing and striking were massively overhauled rightly by Margaret Thatcher's Governments.
So a repeat of the nature of industrial action as it was in the 70s is extremely unlikely and near impossible.

Why there would even thought to be any massive industrial under Corbyn is a complete mystery to me. his policies would more likely than not greatly benefit workers and therefore make sure it wasn't necessary.


Yes Laws are changing fast
its Hard for the Old Boy to Keep Up.
But there is a High Court Judge - Nut Under Government
control.
Yesterday a Judge said
6th Form Colleges are Legal to Strike.

Times are Hard and Corbyn is sticking up for people
but he will not let His MP's
have their Nuke Weapon
thats Dumb


Joey its the Numbers
against him.

[DemolitionRed]

We couldn't have a winter of discontent like the late 70s or indeed as to the early 70s with the Conservatives 3 day week and an never ending miners strike.

The rules on picketing and striking were massively overhauled rightly by Margaret Thatcher's Governments.
So a repeat of the nature of industrial action as it was in the 70s is extremely unlikely and near impossible.

Why there would even thought to be any massive industrial under Corbyn is a complete mystery to me. his policies would more likely than not greatly benefit workers and therefore make sure it wasn't necessary.

Margaret Thatcher did far more damage with her neo-liberal experiment. Fortunately, we are now living in a nation where more and more of its population are becoming hostile to NL ideals.

[joeysteele]

Margaret Thatcher did far more damage with her neo-liberal experiment. Fortunately, we are now living in a nation where more and more of its population are becoming hostile to NL ideals.

I would not have been supportive,(I wasn't even thought of in the 70s let alone born), of the sympathy strikes when a Union came out on strike and other Unions followed.
I could not have supported secondary picketing by flying in workers from other industries to strike and support say Miners, power workers whatever.

Margaret Thatcher for me did right in her union reforms once becoming PM and those changes do mean no sympathy striking, proper ballots for strike action and no secondary picketing.
I do think she did good on those issues as to strike laws.

[arista]

[Margaret Thatcher for me did right
in her union reforms once becoming
PM and those changes do mean
no sympathy striking, proper ballots
for strike action and
no secondary picketing.
I do think she did good on
those issues as to strike laws. ]

Bang on Right Joey
she did the Ground Work for
War Monger Evil Blair

[joeysteele]

Yes Laws are changing fast
its Hard for the Old Boy to Keep Up.
But there is a High Court Judge - Nut Under Government
control.
Yesterday a Judge said
6th Form Colleges are Legal to Strike.

Times are Hard and Corbyn is sticking up for people
but he will not let His MP's
have their Nuke Weapon
thats Dumb


Joey its the Numbers
against him.

He will have to bend to actual Party policy.

He just needs to be 'persuaded' that all PMs would have loved and would love a nuclear weapon free world,none would really,I hope, ever really have wanted to or want to use them.

They are a reality and I agree if he takes the party down only his road,he is doomed to electoral failure which is why it would surprise me,being the man he is, if he didn't find a tolerance/compromise and accept the policy, although against his beliefs.

He doesn't have to abandon his principles, or his hopes of and working for a nuclear weapon free world but e does have to accept he now leads a major Party that has to present itself as a credible alternative for govt and often massive compromise of a lot we think and believe in have to be made.

[Kizzy]

I disagree I think flying pickets showed solidarity across industries and unified workers in complimenting sectors. By legislating against that it became a tool to divide and conquer.

[DemolitionRed]

This was a ComRes/IoS poll from February, I feel like I've seen a more recent one than this but can't find it now:

http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/13/19/7-comres-poll.jpg

And this is from an FT article from 23 Feb:



And these were the results of the most recent ComRes poll:

Thank you MTVN

[DemolitionRed]

Corbyn ahead of Tories in polls
The good news keeps on coming http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-poll-puts-labour-ahead-of-tories-for-first-time-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader-a6937926.html

[joeysteele]

I would advise and usually I don't,anyone not to take any notice of polls.

They were registered meaningless at the last election after months of the polls dominating the campaign.

According to the National polls out before the Oldham by election, Labour should have just held the seat not done even better in it than the general election.

There are 2 polls out recently one has Labour and the Conservatives neck and neck at 36% and one today has Labour 1% ahead.
I am not getting excited at either,even if both were to be believed,both would leave Labour on a figure of around 260 seats with the Conservatives still just over 300 seats.

If the Conservative support is really dropping however,then that is good news definitely and about time too especially after going after the sick and disabled again and the mess there seems now as to the communication of that suggestion or policy.

How anyone can, on top of the previous 5 years of hammering the most vulnerable and the sick and disabled, not think it wrong to carry on doing so in the unnecessary aim of creating a surplus in 2020, is totally beyond my understanding.

[DemolitionRed]

I would advise and usually I don't,anyone not to take any notice of polls.

They were registered meaningless at the last election after months of the polls dominating the campaign.

According to the National polls out before the Oldham by election, Labour should have just held the seat not done even better in it than the general election.

There are 2 polls out recently one has Labour and the Conservatives neck and neck at 36% and one today has Labour 1% ahead.
I am not getting excited at either,even if both were to be believed,both would leave Labour on a figure of around 260 seats with the Conservatives still just over 300 seats.

If the Conservative support is really dropping however,then that is good news definitely and about time too especially after going after the sick and disabled again and the mess there seems now as to the communication of that suggestion or policy.

How anyone can, on top of the previous 5 years of hammering the most vulnerable and the sick and disabled, not think it wrong to carry on doing so in the unnecessary aim of creating a surplus in 2020, is totally beyond my understanding.

I don't know who handed Osborne a shovel but he's been that hole he's digging is getting mighty deep.

[Kizzy]

List of Labour MPs 'hostile' to JC leaked. any surprises?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/labour-mps-hostile-corbyn-leaked-party-document

[joeysteele]

List of Labour MPs 'hostile' to JC leaked. any surprises?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/labour-mps-hostile-corbyn-leaked-party-document

Ridiculous, lets have one for the Conservatives now too as to Cameron now after the hostilities in the EU campaign.

Annoying this daft thing gave Cameron the chance to avoid answering questions again!!!

More annoying is that he is allowed to keep getting away with playing the fool at PMQs rather than seriously answer the questions put to him.
This is becoming unbearable to watch, he is even far worse than Gordon Brown was and that is really saying something.

[letmein]

Corbyn ahead of Tories in polls
The good news keeps on coming http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-poll-puts-labour-ahead-of-tories-for-first-time-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader-a6937926.html

The polls all predicted that conservatives would be annihilated for the last elections. We all saw how that turned out. :dance:

[arista]

Ridiculous, lets have one for the Conservatives now too as to Cameron now after the hostilities in the EU campaign.

Annoying this daft thing gave Cameron the chance to avoid answering questions again!!!

More annoying is that he is allowed to keep getting away with playing the fool at PMQs rather than seriously answer the questions put to him.
This is becoming unbearable to watch, he is even far worse than Gordon Brown was and that is really saying something.


Yes Joey
but the Pathetic Labour List
made by LABOUR,
let the PM Win PMQ's



My thread on the Labour list for any that have not seen it.
http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299496

[Kizzy]

W7gUlYPvBlk

[Kizzy]

aAeo7xOfab4&nohtml5=False

[arista]

Yes they say its a Good Tour
Kizzy.

[arista]

Corbyn The Musical
starts tonight
Looks Great
sold out
was on the last bit of Daily Politics today

http://www.waterlooeast.co.uk/corbyn%20the%20musical.html

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZPronhWYAAPU4v.jpg

[MTVN]

Is there a live sex scene between him and Diane?

[smudgie]

Is there a live sex scene between him and Diane?

I hope it's not over the motorbike.
Word has it that Diane is not at all happy about the mention of a ride with Jeremy on the bike.:joker:

[the truth]

ucha fy the thought of their 2 naked beards meeting on a moped under the munich moonlight is turning my belly

[arista]

JC is Live on the news
talking about the E. U.

[the truth]

What a poor speech he just gave on the EU, he has in effect killed off the labour party for decades to come... a lifelong anti EU rebel, reduced to backing this wasteful elitist unaccountable dangerous corporate enslaving monstrosity, all because his party is absolutely frozen with complacency. There is NO DEBATE within labour, they are therefore now totally irrelevant and even with a dreadful tory government, labour are now unelectable for a generation, maybe forever...you will now see a massive rise in the nationalist parties across the board.

[arista]

What a poor speech he just gave on the EU, he has in effect killed off the labour party for decades to come... a lifelong anti EU rebel, reduced to backing this wasteful elitist unaccountable dangerous corporate enslaving monstrosity, all because his party is absolutely frozen with complacency. There is NO DEBATE within labour, they are therefore now totally irrelevant and even with a dreadful tory government, labour are now unelectable for a generation, maybe forever...you will now see a massive rise in the nationalist parties across the board.


Yes not good at all , sadly

[bots]

Corbyn has zero charisma, not his fault, but he just doesn't command attention when he is speaking. The vast majority of the British public just wont listen to him

[arista]

Is there a live sex scene between him and Diane?



Not sure
but it looks good

[the truth]

Its a shame, he may be a very good guy I don't know? other than the Dianne abbott affair he seems to be a decent bloke....But hes very very poor speaker, he runs his words he doesn't pause , his voice is so monotone, he doesn't accentuate the important bits, he just sounds a bit grump angry and today he sounded spectacularly unconvincing. Hes no tony benn that's for sure

[kirklancaster]

Its a shame, he may be a very good guy I don't know? other than the Dianne abbott affair he seems to be a decent bloke....But hes very very poor speaker, he runs his words he doesn't pause , his voice is so monotone, he doesn't accentuate the important bits, he just sounds a bit grump angry and today he sounded spectacularly unconvincing. Hes no tony benn that's for sure

To be fair to him, it must be hard for to be enthusiastic and sound convincing when he secretly holds the exact OPPOSITE views of the pro-EU crap he is being forced to spout.

[joeysteele]

I found what he said credible, he is likely never going to make a really fired up speech but he says things with conviction.

He has outlined lots that he thinks wrong with the EU,that he would love to see changed and even done away with.
He has stated where he would love to see the EU progression as to things they do and his hope that the UK could help bring about that change.

He gets slammed for sticking to his guns on issues and that as to look the Statesman he needs to tone down his own principles and accept he is not always right.
When he does tone down and alter his position, he then gets slammed for that too.

Just as David Cameron and other cabinet ministers have, maybe Corbyn has looked and analysed the uncertainties across the board of leaving the EU and as he then says, despite his criticisms of it,we are better staying in because the out picture to him, as it clearly does for them too, looks too bleak a prospect.

I accept myself there is a lot wrong with the EU but I too for one, also think staying in is the better thing to do, especially in the absence of nothing of substantiation from the 'out' organisations as to costs and conditions for the UK once out with no going back.

I find it incredible the media going on about him voting to be out in 1975, of the people I have talked to it is amazing the number who voted out in 1975 who are now going to vote in, while at the same time, equally there are loads of people who in 1975 voted in but who are now going to vote out this time.

Because Corbyn has remained critical of the EU but advocates staying in, not by yelling his head off or scaremongering but by calmly setting out his position and presenting his own balanced reasons for and against the EU,I actually think that may appeal to more people than some here will give him credit for.

Just about every other Country seen as a friendly Nation to the UK want us to stay in,the heads of the current security side of the UK want us to,overall Business wants us to and now today even from the hierarchy in NATO comes the view a fragmented EU would not be positive thing.

All these people cannot be wrong and in the absence of the 'out' organisation not telling us how they are wrong, how it would be better and with none of the costings and future conditions that may come into play once out,then really still for me, it is too big a risk to take.

Of course the UK would do okay,it has the means to, it may do better or it may do worse,the question is we don't know what it will be, as good, better or worse,nothing to fill us with confidence and in any event just doing okay would not do for me,not for the UK and its future generations.

[the truth]

I found what he said credible, he is likely never going to make a really fired up speech but he says things with conviction.

He has outlined lots that he thinks wrong with the EU,that he would love to see changed and even done away with.
He has stated where he would love to see the EU progression as to things they do and his hope that the UK could help bring about that change.

He gets slammed for sticking to his guns on issues and that as to look the Statesman he needs to tone down his own principles and accept he is not always right.
When he does tone down and alter his position, he then gets slammed for that too.

Just as David Cameron and other cabinet ministers have, maybe Corbyn has looked and analysed the uncertainties across the board of leaving the EU and as he then says, despite his criticisms of it,we are better staying in because the out picture to him, as it clearly does for them too, looks too bleak a prospect.

I accept myself there is a lot wrong with the EU but I too for one, also think staying in is the better thing to do, especially in the absence of nothing of substantiation from the 'out' organisations as to costs and conditions for the UK once out with no going back.

I find it incredible the media going on about him voting to be out in 1975, of the people I have talked to it is amazing the number who voted out in 1975 who are now going to vote in, while at the same time, equally there are loads of people who in 1975 voted in but who are now going to vote out this time.

Because Corbyn has remained critical of the EU but advocates staying in, not by yelling his head off or scaremongering but by calmly setting out his position and presenting his own balanced reasons for and against the EU,I actually think that may appeal to more people than some here will give him credit for.

Just about every other Country seen as a friendly Nation to the UK want us to stay in,the heads of the current security side of the UK want us to,overall Business wants us to and now today even from the hierarchy in NATO comes the view a fragmented EU would not be positive thing.

All these people cannot be wrong and in the absence of the 'out' organisation not telling us how they are wrong, how it would be better and with none of the costings and future conditions that may come into play once out,then really still for me, it is too big a risk to take.

Of course the UK would do okay,it has the means to, it may do better or it may do worse,the question is we don't know what it will be, as good, better or worse,nothing to fill us with confidence and in any event just doing okay would not do for me,not for the UK and its future generations.

lol

Hes said the exact opposite for 39 years now suddenly he does a total flip flip in months since becoming leader...what a joke, hes out of his depth, hes total sold his soul and today was just total humiliation for a once credible back bencher

[joeysteele]

lol

Hes said the exact opposite for 39 years now suddenly he does a total flip flip in months since becoming leader...what a joke, hes out of his depth, hes total sold his soul and today was just total humiliation for a once credible back bencher

For the first time maybe lots of politicians and indeed citizens of the UK are having to look at what they thought their positions were as to the EU and us being in it,once the day of this referendum being a reality dawned.

I for instance, felt David Cameron may come down on a non committal side,I felt he too was not that concerned at the UK leaving the EU over his time as PM.

It was not a humiliation at all,he has said he remains highly critical of the EU and he has not altered his thinking as to many aspects of it.
Nothing wrong in that at all,however he does lead a party now and he owes full consideration on issues to the UK as a whole and not just to himself.

If after careful consideration he has come to believe that despite all that is wrong with the EU,that with all the uncertainties and worries as to security in the World at this present time right now, that this would be the wrong time to be bringing about the upheaval of taking the UK down an unknown path,so staying in is the better option at this moment in time, then I applaud that from him.

Many in the UK have been and are struggling as to what they should do as to this vote,from the high up in govt right down to the person unemployed.
It is not an easy decision and however people come to their eventually decided positions on the issue should not bring them derision or condemnation for their view.

I respect the views of those in the Country who have decided out,sadly I am finding numbers of the outs have little respect for the views of those choosing in.
It may be a poor choice to stay in, it may be a poor choice to come out,however I know what in looks like and what it will likely remain to be like, I know next to nothing of plans or costs, conditions as to anything out and I never get the answers from the out organisations either.

If I could be shown with substantiation of the info that the UK would do as well out or even better, then I would consider even changing my stance and voting out,however none of that has been or is forthcoming at all.

So out looks a pretty dim prospect for me personally and I really believe Cameron looked hard at it and he too thought out a likely dim prospect.
I can then easily believe Corbyn also analysed out and came to that same conclusion too, just as all other party leaders except for UKIP and maybe the DUP have too.

[the truth]

For the first time maybe lots of politicians and indeed citizens of the UK are having to look at what they thought their positions were as to the EU and us being in it,once the day of this referendum being a reality dawned.

I for instance, felt David Cameron may come down on a non committal side,I felt he too was not that concerned at the UK leaving the EU over his time as PM.

It was not a humiliation at all,he has said he remains highly critical of the EU and he has not altered his thinking as to many aspects of it.
Nothing wrong in that at all,however he does lead a party now and he owes full consideration on issues to the UK as a whole and not just to himself.

If after careful consideration he has come to believe that despite all that is wrong with the EU,that with all the uncertainties and worries as to security in the World at this present time right now, that this would be the wrong time to be bringing about the upheaval of taking the UK down an unknown path,so staying in is the better option at this moment in time, then I applaud that from him.

Many in the UK have been and are struggling as to what they should do as to this vote,from the high up in govt right down to the person unemployed.
It is not an easy decision and however people come to their eventually decided positions on the issue should not bring them derision or condemnation for their view.

I respect the views of those in the Country who have decided out,sadly I am finding numbers of the outs have little respect for the views of those choosing in.
It may be a poor choice to stay in, it may be a poor choice to come out,however I know what in looks like and what it will likely remain to be like, I know next to nothing of plans or costs, conditions as to anything out and I never get the answers from the out organisations either.

If I could be shown with substantiation of the info that the UK would do as well out or even better, then I would consider even changing my stance and voting out,however one of that has been or is forthcoming at all.

So out looks a pretty dim prospect for me personally and I really believe Cameron looked hard at it and he too thought out a likely dim prospect.
I can then easily believe Corbyn also analysed out and came to that same conclusion too, just as all other party leaders except for UKIP and maybe the DUP have too.

lol you sound about as convincing as corbyn. hes been frog marched to this absurd 360 degree u turn in the space of justa few months but a complacent rigid deluded out of touch party.....his arguments held no water and he didn't even believe them himself....he ducked the fact the EU has rolled over to coorporations and in effect blocked all future nationalisation of anything...thus 100% contradicting his life long held ambition to nationalise some industries, plus the railway lines, bt and all energy...you could write a book with the stuff he chose to ignore today.....the Schengen, the terrorism, the blocking of talented non eu migrants from coming here? doctors , nurses? the 40%+ youth unemployment in several EU nations, the fact the UK has created more jobs than the lot of them combined in the last 6 years? the roll over to TTIP.....the list just goes on and on....he has ALWAYS said the opposite of what he said today...hes always called the EU bloated corrupt unelected over burocratic wasteful unaccountable beholden to corporation that it enables to frankly take over and even allows them to sue governments for billions....the total failure to act on tariffs, the insane Schengen agreement , mindless and dangerous. totally hypocritical speech. its amazing how quickly people sell out with a little whiff of power

as one paper said, hes no tony benn, try mr benn, one look in the mirror and he totally changes every time

[joeysteele]

lol you sound about as convincing as corbyn. hes been frog marched to this absurd 360 degree u turn in the space of justa few months but a complacent rigid deluded out of touch party.....his arguments held no water and he didn't even believe them himself....he ducked the fact the EU has rolled over to coorporations and in effect blocked all future nationalisation of anything...thus 100% contradicting his life long held ambition to nationalise some industries, plus the railway lines, bt and all energy...you could write a book with the stuff he chose to ignore today.....the Schengen, the terrorism, the blocking of talented non eu migrants from coming here? doctors , nurses? the 40%+ youth unemployment in several EU nations, the fact the UK has created more jobs than the lot of them combined in the last 6 years? the roll over to TTIP.....the list just goes on and on....he has ALWAYS said the opposite of what he said today...hes always called the EU bloated corrupt unelected over burocratic wasteful unaccountable beholden to corporation that it enables to frankly take over and even allows them to sue governments for billions....the total failure to act on tariffs, the insane Schengen agreement , mindless and dangerous. totally hypocritical speech. its amazing how quickly people sell out with a little whiff of power

as one paper said, hes no tony benn, try mr benn, one look in the mirror and he totally changes every time

I tried to balance a response to you as friendly as I could however you are just intent on bringing those wanting 'in' down.
Carry on because your attitude could turn some wavering 'out' people off too that are struggling with this decision if all you can do to others that have given careful thought to this issue, as I respect you have done yourself too,criticism as to how they viewed things before.

If you wish to debate reasonably then I will listen, if not just avoid the bringing down attitude.

Many people,maybe even the majority, will probably make and/or even change their decision once they get into the voting booths, no matter what their long held or even short term stance may have been before as to the EU.

If the out organisations were to tell us the costs,conditions, and all the time they would take to set up once we left, with substantiated info that is backed up by independent and official organisations, then that would be fully constructive but they do not do so, or will not do so.

If both the 'out' organisations along with the 'in' organisations were to actually stop getting at each other because of their differing views, no matter how they, politicians or citizens,have now come to the view they had and respected each others views, maybe this campaign could actually be of use. Especially to people who do not want to see insults of anyone, no matter who they are,but just to be given solid substantiated information to make the right decision, whether that decision is indeed 'in' or 'out'.

No matter what Corbyn's own deeper views may be,he now as a leader of a major party,owes the people of the UK and his party the right decision to be made after full analysis,not just his own personal view.
Just as David Cameron and even Theresa May,naming two, have arrived at their respective choices as to 'in' too.

Something Corbyn said in his speech rang strong with me for sure, that out of the EU, a govt like this one unfettered by the EU could be disastrous for rights and working families.
Equally for me despite being a Labour supporter,a Labour govt too unfettered by some 'guidelines' from to the EU if out, could also make really bad decisions the other way too as to the wealthy and powerful in the UK.

I actually like the fact that in some ways our govts are watched as to how far they go on some issues.
This govt has got away with quite a bit but it fills me with dread for the most vulnerable of the UK, were this govt able to act totally as it likely 'really' wanted to, as to that group of people.

SO whatever the result,if both sides respected the other and and listened to the arguments,many believed Boris Johnson would come down on the 'in' side.
He didn't,that is his right and it is Corbyn's right to take the view he has and being the man he is, he will not have taken it lightly either,I give him credit for that actually.

He has actually taken a massive step here in my opinion, as if the vote is to leave in fact, he is now also likely to face problems after the vote just as David Cameron will.
If the vote is to leave,then now for sure Cameron will be gone and quickly in my view,however that will also open up a new debate in the Labour party too as to its leadership and where the party has to go to help rebuild the UK after an 'out' vote too.

This is a massive decision for anyone to make,how they come to make it eventually no matter where they stood before on the EU, is for them and all their decisions,whether choosing 'in' or 'out', should be respected and not criticised or derided.

[the truth]

Honestly Joey I mean you no ill will, but you are 100% wrong on this but you wont realise until its too late....think orwells 1984 and multiply it by 100 when the EU take away our sovereignty and hand it to the TTIP , totally wiping out sme's and individuality and turning us into a corporate European superstate with so many laws the small man and even small governments will be powerless to do anything....take note the ftse 90% top companies want in the eu....but the vast majority of sme's want out? what does that tell you? healthy competition is being wiped out...look at UBER cars....The EU has done nothing at all to curb the tory government lol nothing to curb tax evasion, virtually nothing to stop Chinese dumping , they block us recruiting outside the EU and block our trade deals outside the EU....its a corrupt cartel... they cant even control their borders, their tariffs, nothing, they are an absolute disaster and trust me it will continue to get much much worse...corbyn totally sold out and embarrassed himself. totally contradicting everything he has ever said including nationalisation, corruption in the unelected eu, too many laws destroying sme's, the Schengen, the ttip, the loss of sovereignty, the enslavement to corporations.....he should be ashamed of himself and he will never ever be forgiven. The labour party is now finished. all we will see in future is the further rise of national parties in wales Ireland and Scotland and that means more tory governments in england
enjoy
the ONLY way to get rid of the tories is to have a better government replace them not to hope the EU will sort it out for us, that is the road to absolute madness...corbyn blew his once in a lifetime chance to actually make a stand to stick to his beliefs and core principles, but he sold us down the river...tony benn would be turning in his grave

[DemolitionRed]

Whilst I don't agree with TheTruth about re-nationalising within the EU model, neither do I agree that the influx of immigrants will lighten with Brexit; I firmly agree that the EU follow and encourage the 'neoliberal' blueprint and that translates to living in a finance dominated regime and sovereign debt.

Every government since Thatcher have been neoliberal thinkers and I think most of us can at least recognize that this country has been through some fundamental changes, especially with our present government who appear hell bent on flying their neoliberal flag. Yes, we've had European integration and free trade agreements but we've also led the EU neoliberal model in macroeconomics and the consequences of that are, the rich get richer and the poor just get neglected.

There is no room for the likes of Corbyn within the EU and although I don't like to conspire, I do believe Corbyn's party will never get into parliament under the EU. His face doesn't fit, his policies would be hugely problematic for the EU and so unless he's prepared to do a complete U-turn on everything he stands for, this country will not see Corbyn as our next PM if we remain within the EU.

[joeysteele]

I can take on board some of what The Truth says and Demolition Red too, however no way is the Labour party finished at all.
What may be finished and may be finished for good or a fair time will be any party wining an overall majority in the future of any noteworthy size.
I actually think a Corbyn led govt or now better Labour govt led by anyone after the nonsense of 'new' Labour, could win better change within the EU.

Especially as a minority Labour govt would have in Parliament too,the likes of Lib Dems, Greens, Plaid Cymru,the SNP, also the SDLP n Northen Ireland.
A vote to remain in and then a govt that is willing to work with and seek real change could achieve more for the UK in the EU than out.

Really the Conservative party is extremeley fortunate to be currently sitting with a 12 overall majority and my hope is that Labour will come round to some form of pr in the future now.
I cannot now accept that a govt should be able to govern freely with a majority getting less than 4 votes out of 10 cast in a general election.

The Conservative party will be in disarray whatever the result of the referendum. if the vote is to leave, Cameron will be slaughtered for that loss and will have to go,who takes over if it was Boris Johnson,(all powers that be forbid that happening please),they will not be able to rebuild and all will depend on the real new costs and conditions of all trading deals with whoever as well as just the EU.

I would accept if it is an out vote, it would be difficult to for Corbyn too to likely remain leader.
I still myself do not see Corbyn leading Labour into the 2020 but I do believe it will again be the rising party in that election,if it were to persuade someone like Dan Jarvis to go for the leadership.

It would take a very small shifting of votes indeed to remove the overall majority status of this govt.
Without an overall majority and with a stronger more determined coalition partner the extreme Conservative govt we have now could not be in that scenario.

After this referendum regardless,Cameron will not be leader for the 2020 election,the opportunities for Labour should be far better than the last 2 elections.
Scotland does not worry me at all as a Labour supporter,the one ting the SNP does not want is Conservative dominance anywhere.
While I hope Labour pulls back seats in Scotland in 2020,as long as those seats not pulled back,are not Conservative held, that will do me.

So no I do not see a bleak future for Labour,nor for the Conservatives as the 2 main parties in UK politics.
I do however see the end now for any party gaining a strong working overall majority now in elections and for me that I see as a good positive thing.
Anything that forces consensus in politics is better than having a party in govt,free to do its will against sections of society while only getting less than 4 out of every 10 votes cast in elections.

I also accept had there been some pr voting in the May 2015 election that with a credible 14% of the votes UKIP would have had a greater number of seats and they would have been the likely coalition partner to the Conservatives.
While not my choices,that would have been 'fair and real' democracy and for sure UKIP had far better social policies than the Conservatives and unlike the Lib Dems would have not allowed the Conservatives to discriminate against the most vulnerable the way they have been able to, with this surprising but very small overall majority they hold at present, only under this electoral system.

If Labour looks again at pr,because for certain 100%, the Conservatives never will,then votes cast by voters will take on a whole new meaning and far from being finished, Labour could again lead the way as to govt albeit shared govt.
There is not a world of difference as to caring and compassionate policies now needed between all other parties in Westminster other than in the Conservative party.

In or out the EU, I am now on the side of real change as to our electoral system and if that means no party in future inflicting its extremes on any sections of society,well that for me too is all the better.

Anyway the truth, thanks for your reply, and by the way,I more and more think the result of the referendum will be to leave,narrowly.
I firmly believe the main reason for that will be most of the voters in the far South of England who will carry the vote, against the wishes of the other Countries of the UK and most other regions of England too.

[the truth]

I can take on board some of what The Truth says and Demolition Red too, however no way is the Labour party finished at all.
What may be finished and may be finished for good or a fair time will be any party wining an overall majority in the future of any noteworthy size.
I actually think a Corbyn led govt or now better Labour govt led by anyone after the nonsense of 'new' Labour, could win better change within the EU.

Especially as a minority Labour govt would have in Parliament too,the likes of Lib Dems, Greens, Plaid Cymru,the SNP, also the SDLP n Northen Ireland.
A vote to remain in and then a govt that is willing to work with and seek real change could achieve more for the UK in the EU than out.

Really the Conservative party is extremeley fortunate to be currently sitting with a 12 overall majority and my hope is that Labour will come round to some form of pr in the future now.
I cannot now accept that a govt should be able to govern freely with a majority getting less than 4 votes out of 10 cast in a general election.

The Conservative party will be in disarray whatever the result of the referendum. if the vote is to leave, Cameron will be slaughtered for that loss and will have to go,who takes over if it was Boris Johnson,(all powers that be forbid that happening please),they will not be able to rebuild and all will depend on the real new costs and conditions of all trading deals with whoever as well as just the EU.

I would accept if it is an out vote, it would be difficult to for Corbyn too to likely remain leader.
I still myself do not see Corbyn leading Labour into the 2020 but I do believe it will again be the rising party in that election,if it were to persuade someone like Dan Jarvis to go for the leadership.

It would take a very small shifting of votes indeed to remove the overall majority status of this govt.
Without an overall majority and with a stronger more determined coalition partner the extreme Conservative govt we have now could not be in that scenario.

After this referendum regardless,Cameron will not be leader for the 2020 election,the opportunities for Labour should be far better than the last 2 elections.
Scotland does not worry me at all as a Labour supporter,the one ting the SNP does not want is Conservative dominance anywhere.
While I hope Labour pulls back seats in Scotland in 2020,as long as those seats not pulled back,are not Conservative held, that will do me.

So no I do not see a bleak future for Labour,nor for the Conservatives as the 2 main parties in UK politics.
I do however see the end now for any party gaining a strong working overall majority now in elections and for me that I see as a good positive thing.
Anything that forces consensus in politics is better than having a party in govt,free to do its will against sections of society while only getting less than 4 out of every 10 votes cast in elections.

I also accept had there been some pr voting in the May 2015 election that with a credible 14% of the votes UKIP would have had a greater number of seats and they would have been the likely coalition partner to the Conservatives.
While not my choices,that would have been 'fair and real' democracy and for sure UKIP had far better social policies than the Conservatives and unlike the Lib Dems would have not allowed the Conservatives to discriminate against the most vulnerable the way they have been able to with this surprising but very small overall majority they hold at present under this electoral system.

If Labour looks again at pr,because for certain 100%, the Conservatives never will,then votes cast by voters will take on a whole new meaning and far from being finished, Labour could again lead the way as to govt albeit shared govt.
There is not a world of difference as to caring and compassionate policies now needed between all other parties in Westminster other than in the Conservative party.

In or out the EU, I am now on the side of real change as to our electoral system and if that means no party in future inflicting its extremes on any sections of society,well that for me too is all the better.

Anyway the truth, thanks for your reply, and by the way,I more and more think the result of the referendum will be to leave.narrowly, and I firmly believe the main reason for that will be most of the voters in the far South of England who will carry the vote against the wishes of the other Countries of the UK and most other regions of England too.

The UK under the evil tories in the past 6 years has created more jobs than the rest of the EU put together. And before the left wing start with zero hours, only 2% of contracts are zero hours. Labour left the country skint, they blew everything, even the nhs which they pumped more money into was the dirtiest in Europe with mass mrsa at 70 times the rate of Sweden.
we had cover ups galore like Rotherham where 20,000 children were abused by middle eastern men but it was too politically correct to investigate it....we had record debts, unemployment was double what it is now, illegal wars....sell out to Europe, they even gave our multi billion eu rebate away for nothing....oh and they did nothing for industries and helped create the biggest financial collapse ever with their insane banking housing policies...their benefits bill was insane because as usual they lacked the moral courage to draw the line between who deserved them and who didn't...under labour we saw the breed for benefits culture grow massively....disability rights were not brought forward because the funds ran dry and disabled issues such as disabled access stalled for a generation...they deregulated the rich they over regulated the poor....they borught in 1000s of petty laws and stealth taxes so the poor were paying more in tax as a percentage..

now they have a rebel but hes been brought to heel by blairites and is already towing the line to make us all corporate lackeys...

the tories are always going to be selfish and for the rich, but their policies are producing better results than new labour. right now they are the lesser of 2 great evils....the fact no one in labour argues for brexit shows how deluded lazy and out of touch they are...this will se the rise of the nationalists...id be willing to bet you my life savings labour do not win government in the next 20 years...fancy a bet?

[joeysteele]

The UK under the evil tories in the past 6 years has created more jobs than the rest of the EU put together. And before the left wing start with zero hours, only 2% of contracts are zero hours. Labour left the country skint, they blew everything, even the nhs which they pumped more money into was the dirtiest in Europe with mass mrsa at 70 times the rate of Sweden.
we had cover ups galore like Rotherham where 20,000 children were abused by middle eastern men but it was too politically correct to investigate it....we had record debts, unemployment was double what it is now, illegal wars....sell out to Europe, they even gave our multi billion eu rebate away for nothing....oh and they did nothing for industries and helped create the biggest financial collapse ever with their insane banking housing policies...their benefits bill was insane because as usual they lacked the moral courage to draw the line between who deserved them and who didn't...under labour we saw the breed for benefits culture grow massively....disability rights were not brought forward because the funds ran dry and disabled issues such as disabled access stalled for a generation...they deregulated the rich they over regulated the poor....they borught in 1000s of petty laws and stealth taxes so the poor were paying more in tax as a percentage..

now they have a rebel but hes been brought to heel by blairites and is already towing the line to make us all corporate lackeys...

the tories are always going to be selfish and for the rich, but their policies are producing better results than new labour. right now they are the lesser of 2 great evils....the fact no one in labour argues for brexit shows how deluded lazy and out of touch they are...this will se the rise of the nationalists...id be willing to bet you my life savings labour do not win government in the next 20 years...fancy a bet?

Well needless to say I disagree with just about all that, also as to the jobs issue, and actually this thread is about Corbyn not general politics.

The ASDA near me,just over 2 years ago had all staff on min 30 to 36 hours guaranteed each week.

Now all staff except management and supervisory level are on 16 hour contracts.
hardly any are happy but can do nothing about it, so as for real jobs let us see the full now part time hours figures and well as zero hours contracts ones too.

Sadly you are back to your blinkered one sided hatred of the Labour party,ignoring or avoiding the rotten heartlessness of this govt while only presenting some of the bad that Labour did.

As I fear unfortunately you are over exaggerating above some of the problems in the time of the Labour govt.
So really if you are back on that irrational track of not balancing arguments, then further debate with you is in my view,sadly pointless again.
I tried anyway.

Finally,by the way, yes, I would say that Labour are likely to do much better in 2020, enough to remove the overall majority status of this govt easily.
Maybe even come close to or being the largest party.
Especially if the UK votes to leave the EU even moreso as UKIP will be then more than likely defunct and irrelevant.

Anyone however as to any result, betting on the 2020 election now would be in my view rather foolish to do so but in a greater sense to bet on politics and what happens in it in the next 20 years would be just plain ridiculous.

[the truth]

Well needless to say I disagree with just about all that, also as to the jobs issue, and actually this thread is about Corbyn not general politics.

The ASDA near me,just over 2 years ago had all staff on min 30 to 36 hours guaranteed each week.

Now all staff except management and supervisory level are on 16 hour contracts.
hardly any are happy but can do nothing about it, so as for real jobs let us see the full now part time hours figures and well as zero hours contracts ones too.

Sadly you are back to your blinkered one sided hatred of the Labour party,ignoring or avoiding the rotten heartlessness of this govt while only presenting some of the bad that Labour did.

As I fear unfortunately you are over exaggerating above some of the problems in the time of the Labour govt.
So really if you are back on that irrational track of not balancing arguments, then further debate with you is in my view,sadly pointless again.
I tried anyway.

Finally,by the way, yes, I would say that Labour are likely to do much better in 2020, enough to remove the overall majority status of this govt easily.
Maybe even come close to or being the largest party.
Especially if the UK votes to leave the EU even moreso as UKIP will be then defunct and irrelevant.

Anyone however as to any result, betting on the 2020 election now would be in my view rather foolish to do so but in a greater sense to bet on politics and what happens in it in the next 20 years would be just plain ridiculous.

lol more personal attacks lol
everything Ive said is factually correct, yours is nonsense

[joeysteele]

lol more personal attacks lol
everything Ive said is factually correct, yours is nonsense

When you returned,you have said a fair bit I have been able to agree with, nowhere at all in any of my posts do I attack you personally.
However if I engage with someone, I have the right to be talked to with respect and not be told all I say is 100% wrong or be pulled down for an opinion.

You seem very sadly unable to show respect to any who disagree with your view,I find that really sad when you clearly have great knowledge on a wide range of issues.
If all you want is people to tell you are always right when you are not even at times, then that is not debating and makes any conversation not worthwhile at all.
Mine is far from nonsense,there is absolutely no need whatsoever to be so insulting to other members the way you go about it, no need at all.

I unfortunately, as to my time and energy,made another great mistake in ever responding to you on this thread and on others, it is one big mistake I will ensure I do not make again now in the future.
So you just go on 'thinking' you are always right,good luck to you on that one.

[DemolitionRed]

The UK under the evil tories in the past 6 years has created more jobs than the rest of the EU put together. And before the left wing start with zero hours, only 2% of contracts are zero hours.

That's a percentage of the entire population of Britain. If we put nearly 1 million people on zero hour contracts out of the real percentage of people within working age or workability, I think you will find that figure goes up considerably. But its not only zero hour contracts; many companies now take people on, on a self employed basis hence self employment in Britain is the highest we have ever seen. This is just another form of zero hour contract without the heading.


Labour left the country skint, they blew everything, even the nhs which they pumped more money into was the dirtiest in Europe with mass mrsa at 70 times the rate of Sweden.


The previous Labour government were **** but they didn't spend anything like the money this party have spent since coming to office. You can't blame Labour for the crash... well maybe you can but you'd be wrong.


we had cover ups galore like Rotherham where 20,000 children were abused by middle eastern men but it was too politically correct to investigate it....we had record debts, unemployment was double what it is now, illegal wars....sell out to Europe, they even gave our multi billion eu rebate away for nothing....oh and they did nothing for industries and helped create the biggest financial collapse ever with their insane banking housing policies...their benefits bill was insane because as usual they lacked the moral courage to draw the line between who deserved them and who didn't...under labour we saw the breed for benefits culture grow massively....disability rights were not brought forward because the funds ran dry and disabled issues such as disabled access stalled for a generation...they deregulated the rich they over regulated the poor....they borught in 1000s of petty laws and stealth taxes so the poor were paying more in tax as a percentage..

And your point is what exactly? New Labour have gone and we are now looking at a very different Labour party.

now they have a rebel but hes been brought to heel by blairites and is already towing the line to make us all corporate lackeys...

Corbyn has to tow some sort of line if he stands any hope of becoming our future MP. This is a man who has stuck with his principles since before we were born and so there isn't a hope in hell of him becoming just another wet behind the ears Labour leader.

the tories are always going to be selfish and for the rich, but their policies are producing better results than new labour. right now they are the lesser of 2 great evils....the fact no one in labour argues for brexit shows how deluded lazy and out of touch they are...this will se the rise of the nationalists...id be willing to bet you my life savings labour do not win government in the next 20 years...fancy a bet?

The Tories are certainly not the better of two evils; not with Corbyn in charge.
I come from a fairly privileged background. I've never been unemployed, never been poor; in fact I've probably benefited from Tory policies but I'm disturbed by what I see happening to this country and I can't help but feel genuinely frightened for people less fortunate than myself. What I don't understand is, why can't you see what I see?

[Kizzy]

Well said DR! I really wonder how some people define patriotic, is it maintaining our public services and industry for future generations or singing 'jarusalem' whilst jam making?...

[joeysteele]

That's a percentage of the entire population of Britain. If we put nearly 1 million people on zero hour contracts out of the real percentage of people within working age or workability, I think you will find that figure goes up considerably. But its not only zero hour contracts; many companies now take people on, on a self employed basis hence self employment in Britain is the highest we have ever seen. This is just another form of zero hour contract without the heading.



The previous Labour government were **** but they didn't spend anything like the money this party have spent since coming to office. You can't blame Labour for the crash... well maybe you can but you'd be wrong.


And your point is what exactly? New Labour have gone and we are now looking at a very different Labour party.

Corbyn has to tow some sort of line if he stands any hope of becoming our future MP. This is a man who has stuck with his principles since before we were born and so there isn't a hope in hell of him becoming just another wet behind the ears Labour leader.


The Tories are certainly not the better of two evils; not with Corbyn in charge.
I come from a fairly privileged background. I've never been unemployed, never been poor; in fact I've probably benefited from Tory policies but I'm disturbed by what I see happening to this country and I can't help but feel genuinely frightened for people less fortunate than myself. What I don't understand is, why can't you see what I see?

Excellent response.

[the truth]

That's a percentage of the entire population of Britain. If we put nearly 1 million people on zero hour contracts out of the real percentage of people within working age or workability, I think you will find that figure goes up considerably. But its not only zero hour contracts; many companies now take people on, on a self employed basis hence self employment in Britain is the highest we have ever seen. This is just another form of zero hour contract without the heading.



The previous Labour government were **** but they didn't spend anything like the money this party have spent since coming to office. You can't blame Labour for the crash... well maybe you can but you'd be wrong.


And your point is what exactly? New Labour have gone and we are now looking at a very different Labour party.

Corbyn has to tow some sort of line if he stands any hope of becoming our future MP. This is a man who has stuck with his principles since before we were born and so there isn't a hope in hell of him becoming just another wet behind the ears Labour leader.


The Tories are certainly not the better of two evils; not with Corbyn in charge.
I come from a fairly privileged background. I've never been unemployed, never been poor; in fact I've probably benefited from Tory policies but I'm disturbed by what I see happening to this country and I can't help but feel genuinely frightened for people less fortunate than myself. What I don't understand is, why can't you see what I see?

The funny thing is you think I vote tory lol
Ive never voted tory
But I seek the truth, I seek the find what works best for the country
I feel communism is a disaster and socialism can also be a disaster
I believe in a mixed economy with healthy competition, without any cartels and monopolies
neither the tories or labour offer this

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, this is how Id sum up the EU, amidst the waste and corruption there are some good intentions but it cannot succeed ever, its anti economic anti democratic anti meritiocratic any common sense

anyone can go around saying feed the homeless , free higher education for everyone, nhs for everyone, open borders for everyone, £15 minimum wage for everyone.....you might as well say everyone should win the lottery this week...it doesn't work that way. the world is a business there are winners and losers, but the game is rigged and we need a safety net for those who lose...we need better regulations of these monsters who rule the world. There is almost no difference between labour and conservatives. even this man of so called integrity once he gets a position of power within a few months he completely changes his entire opinion on the biggest issue for decades? pathetic.

both parties are a disaster imo ...neither support sme's neither curb the corrupt power of monopolies, neither protect britains sovereignty. though labour are even more out of touch as the nation is split over Europe, labour are not even having a discussion about it. theyre just obsessed with tearing down the tories and worshipping a perverted version of political correctness...they've learnt nothing. they failed in every single sector of the country. and the blairites have learnt nothing yet they still control puppet corbyn

[DemolitionRed]

The funny thing is you think I vote tory lol
Ive never voted tory
But I seek the truth, I seek the find what works best for the country
I feel communism is a disaster and socialism can also be a disaster
I believe in a mixed economy with healthy competition, without any cartels and monopolies
neither the tories or labour offer this

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, this is how Id sum up the EU, amidst the waste and corruption there are some good intentions but it cannot succeed ever, its anti economic anti democratic anti meritiocratic any common sense

anyone can go around saying feed the homeless , free higher education for everyone, nhs for everyone, open borders for everyone, £15 minimum wage for everyone.....you might as well say everyone should win the lottery this week...it doesn't work that way. the world is a business there are winners and losers, but the game is rigged and we need a safety net for those who lose...we need better regulations of these monsters who rule the world. There is almost no difference between labour and conservatives. even this man of so called integrity once he gets a position of power within a few months he completely changes his entire opinion on the biggest issue for decades? pathetic.

both parties are a disaster imo ...neither support sme's neither curb the corrupt power of monopolies, neither protect britains sovereignty. though labour are even more out of touch as the nation is split over Europe, labour are not even having a discussion about it. theyre just obsessed with tearing down the tories and worshipping a perverted version of political correctness...they've learnt nothing. they failed in every single sector of the country. and the blairites have learnt nothing yet they still control puppet corbyn

Actually I think we are quite similar, at least in our horrified grief of what Britain has become. Where we differ is, I believe there is a huge divide between our present tory party and our present labour party.

This is not a welfare state and this is not a democracy. Disenfranchised people don't really decide anything and yet all of this is being presented to us as though its some great progress of the human race. We are living a lie and every time someone goes to work on a zero hour contract or for minimum wage, they are contributing to that lie.

I freak out when I see so many young homeless people in my borough of London. Its happening to more and more people, not because they're lazy; or junkies but because the system sets us up to fail...and its going to get worse but because we are all being poisoned to hate the idle benefit claimants and drop-outs, less people will care because we live in a false utopia where we only need to think about ourselves and the trinkets we can buy and the 300 flavours of coffees we can drink .... we don't need notice what's going on around us. Its like we are sleep walking.

Even if we do get a Corbyn Prime Minister, which i dearly hope for, alone, it isn't nearly enough, as the power of global tyrants will eventually undermine and discard him. It will merely make things a lot better and a lot less aggressively oppressive for perhaps a decade or so. A Corbyn election would at least give humanity a little oxygen to pause for breath.

[Kizzy]

Actually I think we are quite similar, at least in our horrified grief of what Britain has become. Where we differ is, I believe there is a huge divide between our present tory party and our present labour party.

This is not a welfare state and this is not a democracy. Disenfranchised people don't really decide anything and yet all of this is being presented to us as though its some great progress of the human race. We are living a lie and every time someone goes to work on a zero hour contract or for minimum wage, they are contributing to that lie.

I freak out when I see so many young homeless people in my borough of London. Its happening to more and more people, not because they're lazy; or junkies but because the system sets us up to fail...and its going to get worse but because we are all being poisoned to hate the idle benefit claimants and drop-outs, less people will care because we live in a false utopia where we only need to think about ourselves and the trinkets we can buy and the 300 flavours of coffees we can drink .... we don't need notice what's going on around us. Its like we are sleep walking.

Even if we do get a Corbyn Prime Minister, which i dearly hope for, alone, it isn't nearly enough, as the power of global tyrants will eventually undermine and discard him. It will merely make things a lot better and a lot less aggressively oppressive for perhaps a decade or so. A Corbyn election would at least give humanity a little oxygen to pause for breath.

Wonderful post thank you, I have a similar view as a country we are on the brink of oblivion I really hope the true voice of the British comes through here and saves society as our civil liberties crumble around our ears surely now people are waking and smelling how putrid these 300 flavours of coffee are?

[DemolitionRed]

Wonderful post thank you, I have a similar view as a country we are on the brink of oblivion I really hope the true voice of the British comes through here and saves society as our civil liberties crumble around our ears surely now people are waking and smelling how putrid these 300 flavours of coffee are?

Oh I know you have similar views to me :hee: Unfortunately you and me and some of the people including some moderators on this forum, do ask that question and are disturbed by the answer. We are not enough though, there are too many uninvolved, uncaring, walking past, reading their Daily Mail and blaming it all on anyone other than the government.

[Kizzy]

Oh I know you have similar views to me :hee: Unfortunately you and me and some of the people including some moderators on this forum, do ask that question and are disturbed by the answer. We are not enough though, there are too many uninvolved, uncaring, walking past, reading their Daily Mail and blaming it all on anyone other than the government.

Many of these poor blinkered individuals are having the scales fall from their eyes as 'austerity' begins to affect them, when it's someone the papers label a 'scrounger' it's fine.
Not that I'd ever say 'I told you so' :hehe:

[Cherie]

The funny thing is you think I vote tory lol
Ive never voted tory
But I seek the truth, I seek the find what works best for the country
I feel communism is a disaster and socialism can also be a disaster
I believe in a mixed economy with healthy competition, without any cartels and monopolies
neither the tories or labour offer this

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, this is how Id sum up the EU, amidst the waste and corruption there are some good intentions but it cannot succeed ever, its anti economic anti democratic anti meritiocratic any common sense

anyone can go around saying feed the homeless , free higher education for everyone, nhs for everyone, open borders for everyone, £15 minimum wage for everyone.....you might as well say everyone should win the lottery this week...it doesn't work that way. the world is a business there are winners and losers, but the game is rigged and we need a safety net for those who lose...we need better regulations of these monsters who rule the world. There is almost no difference between labour and conservatives. even this man of so called integrity once he gets a position of power within a few months he completely changes his entire opinion on the biggest issue for decades? pathetic.

both parties are a disaster imo ...neither support sme's neither curb the corrupt power of monopolies, neither protect britains sovereignty. though labour are even more out of touch as the nation is split over Europe, labour are not even having a discussion about it. theyre just obsessed with tearing down the tories and worshipping a perverted version of political correctness...they've learnt nothing. they failed in every single sector of the country. and the blairites have learnt nothing yet they still control puppet corbyn


:clap2:

[Kizzy]

uYDicO0VyUM
9w8JrDILQBM

[the truth]

Actually I think we are quite similar, at least in our horrified grief of what Britain has become. Where we differ is, I believe there is a huge divide between our present tory party and our present labour party.

This is not a welfare state and this is not a democracy. Disenfranchised people don't really decide anything and yet all of this is being presented to us as though its some great progress of the human race. We are living a lie and every time someone goes to work on a zero hour contract or for minimum wage, they are contributing to that lie.

I freak out when I see so many young homeless people in my borough of London. Its happening to more and more people, not because they're lazy; or junkies but because the system sets us up to fail...and its going to get worse but because we are all being poisoned to hate the idle benefit claimants and drop-outs, less people will care because we live in a false utopia where we only need to think about ourselves and the trinkets we can buy and the 300 flavours of coffees we can drink .... we don't need notice what's going on around us. Its like we are sleep walking.

Even if we do get a Corbyn Prime Minister, which i dearly hope for, alone, it isn't nearly enough, as the power of global tyrants will eventually undermine and discard him. It will merely make things a lot better and a lot less aggressively oppressive for perhaps a decade or so. A Corbyn election would at least give humanity a little oxygen to pause for breath.

Labour are idiotic though. The labour councils across the UK have an unrivalled record of spending over their budget, vastly over paying their chief executives and wasting tax payers money and endlessly increasing stealth taxes to pay for their wasteful nonsense. The system we employ where councils are encouraged to waste their budgets by the end of the tax year in order to get more funding the next year, is insane. its anti business anti common sense anti tax payer....they don't even employ it smartly, not a penny to encourage or grow sme's and job creation. They endlessly roll over to corporate greed and mass retailers....gifting them land free parking, whilst hammering their own town centre with endless charges, taxes, rate rises etc at least this tory lot has slashed business rates for sme's...this economy IS vastly stronger than it was under the last labour lot....labour need to accept that fact...unemployment has more than halved....obviously there is an infinite list of stuff that is dreadful as with all governments.....You take the nhs it was a disaster under the last labour government with endless mrsa at world record highs, the endless abuses, the 1000s of patients starved or dying of thirst? yet still no one was sacked? the politically correct cover ups of radical islam where 20,000 children were abused in Rotherham... absolute filth, endless cover ups, the collapse of any anonymous complaints procedure and strong ombudsmen....staff who dared criticize were intimidated and bullied into silence...this is what happens with bent governments and with the enormous expansion of the civil service....local government is meant to run trading standards properly to protect the public against corruption, that all collapsed under new labour too

labour think they can deflect away what they are....lets talk about the evil tories...well just because the tories are the bad guys, doesn't make labour the good guys. You can at least measure the private sector the jobs, the wealth, the gdp, the currency....how do you measure left wing waste and take overs and cover ups and corruption and petty laws and massive stealth taxes and parking charges destroying town centres? look at Romania, the socialist dictators built the biggest palaces ever built and the people starved and the entire economy collapsed. if labour had won in 2010 we would have been on the road to disaster.

this tory government has been a disappointment in many ways, especially how its done so little to rebalance the economy. Obama has done way more in rebalancing. there has been zero support for small business in this country for 30 years and Maggie thatcher did nothing for sme's either.....both parties are marching to the same corporate takeover .....but at least with this lot compared to new labour....mrsa has been wiped out, the ombudsmen have been strengthened, there over 2.4 million more people work....the minimum wage has gone up, less people are destroying their lives with the breed for benefits culture which labour encouraged....and at least they are having a healthy debate on Europe.....labour are doing what they've done for decades,,,,nothing, sitting on their hands, too scared to offend, to cowardly to act, too spineless to even offer opinions and too lacking in imagination to offer ideals and ideas to offer a more exciting future

Wales has always been labour and their economy has been destroyed. admittedly by Thatcherism but what the heck have labour done? they had 13 years and did less than nothing for the industries.

At this moment in time the tories are the lesser of 2 evils...that tells you all you need to know about what a mess the labour party has become....no one knows what the stand for other than a perverted divisive disingenuous dangerous wasteful form of political correctness. now the great redeemer Jeremy corbyn who is an alleged rebel and has spoken against corporate takeovers and the European union for 39 years...yet within 6 months of getting some power he has totally changed his mind 100%.
hardly tells you he is a man of integrity and backbone......tony benn would be turning in his grave

[arista]

Today JC was on the London May Day March today
with many Communists Groups

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/01/13/33B5F66700000578-3567891-image-a-33_1462105865244.jpg
[The Labour leader was cheered by crowds as he addressed a May Day rally in Clerkenwell Green, London today. ]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/01/17/33B659C200000578-3568271-Communists_with_banners_featuring_Soviet_dictator_ Stalin_were_am-m-30_1462119758377.jpg
Stalin banner yesterday

[Livia]

https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/one-minute-to-midnight.gif

[Livia]

Today JC was on the London May Day March today
with many Communists Groups

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/01/17/33B659C200000578-3568271-Communists_with_banners_featuring_Soviet_dictator_ Stalin_were_am-m-30_1462119758377.jpg
Stalin banner yesterday

Look at the Communists marching along carrying a banner with Stalin on it like he's some kind of hero when in reality he murdered more people than Hitler. So, are they too stupid to know what he did, or are they okay with it? It's got to be one or the other.

[joeysteele]

Doesn't he always isn't this day about workers too.

[DemolitionRed]

@TheTruth

Yes, lets talk about the Tories because it’s the Tories who are presently running this country and trying to bombard us with debilitating new policies.

I don’t deflect Tory policy with old style New Labour because Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were equally good at fabricating conflict, squandering our taxes and ruling over the same economic model that our present robber barons are doing. New Labour were just a product of our age and all played a big part in the disastrous consequences we see today.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were about as far away from socialism as Thatcher. Ceausescu style communism can hardly be compared to neoliberal New Labour. The only comparison I can make with every party since Thatcher is, it’s a kind of totalitarianism that infantilises its people in a different way to communism. Just as Romania went through post communism handicap we will also go through post neoliberal handicap. We live in a much more efficient form of slavery than the Romanians did under Ceausescu but we have all been farmed, we just have comfier coloured cages than the old communist style Romanians did.

Corbyn style Labour is the new hot potato that hasn’t gone down terribly well with old style New Labour. Well it wouldn’t would it because under the neoliberal model, we have all been brought up to think nothing that simple could possibly work and so it must have obvious flaw.

[Kizzy]

Doesn't he always isn't this day about workers too.

Yes I listened to his speech in support of the NHS, where are our govt on that? Oh yes sat next to their private heathcare shares :/

[arista]

Look at the Communists marching along carrying a banner with Stalin on it like he's some kind of hero when in reality he murdered more people than Hitler. So, are they too stupid to know what he did, or are they okay with it? It's got to be one or the other.



Yes they need to Remove Stalin

[Livia]

Yes they need to Remove Stalin

And the Leftists need to address it.

[DemolitionRed]

Trust the juicy rags to focus on this tiny irrelevant cluster of Lenin supporters.
:inamood:

[Livia]

A group supporting a mass-murder is fine, so long as it's not a big group.

[joeysteele]

Trust the juicy rags to focus on this tiny irrelevant cluster of Lenin supporters.
:inamood:

Exactly, I have no time at all for the Communists at all but they became part of this day here, was there any trouble,anything illegal about that.

The British voters used to elect some Communists to our own Parliament into the 1930s and a little beyond that too.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/1/462491/default/v0/i-1-992x558.jpg

[bots]

Jeremy Corbyn has predicted Labour will not lose any seats in Thursday's English council elections and dismissed reports of a possible challenge to his leadership if results go against him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36192601

---------------

Should be interesting :hehe:

[joeysteele]

I think Corbyn is being too optimistic here,these elections were last fought in 2012, Labour was ahead in the polling and it was following the start of the NHS top down re-organisation,the tuition fees chaos and also the cuts were starting to hit.
In May last year Labour lost ground considerably in the general election.

Of the figures for 2012, they tell their own story, Labour gained 823 councillors to go to just over 2000.
The Conservatives lost 405 councillors to end up with around 1000.
The Lib dems lost 336 councillors to end up with just over 400.
Of those up for election that year.

Considering the Conservatives are still at present,if polling is to be believed, 5 or 6 points ahead of Labour then it should be them taking good numbers of seats themselves and in effect, the only party that can be targeted as to winning seats from is Labour on these elections as they resulted in 2012.

So I expect losses,anything between 200 to 300 lost and I think that will help in part confirm that Labour are not likely to win an election under Corbyn,that's just my view.
That will not be a disaster however as we are only in the first years elections following the general election and those who voted Conservative in May last year are getting what they supported and voted for regardless of the morals,(or more likely the lack of them as to policies), and devastating effects of the policies.

Will this spark a new leadership contest for Labour, no, not yet but it is coming for sure now before the next election and more than likely around the same time as a Conservative leadership election, if David Cameron loses the EU referendum and the UK votes to leave,then has to quit earlier than he hoped.

Scotland is lost to the SNP until the independence hopes start to fade fully but I can live with that as long as it is the SNP who hold onto at present,the past and future again Labour votes.
I said elsewhere however in Wales, Labour has to remain the largest party and be able to govern with another there.
Failure to do so will be really bad.

[Vicky.]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/1/462491/default/v0/i-1-992x558.jpg

I hate this racist son of a bitch with a passion. Just seeing her face makes me mad :laugh:

[Livia]

I hate this racist son of a bitch with a passion. Just seeing her face makes me mad :laugh:

I'm so happy to see that someone else feels exactly as I do about her.

[joeysteele]

Also as well as local elections, London elections,PCC elections, Welsh Assembly and Scottish elections plus the London Mayor election there is also 2 parliamentary by elections, both in Labour seats,'Ogmore' in Wales and 'Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough' tomorrow.

A busy night ahead on TV hopefully.

[arista]

JC is guest on Ch4HD The Last Leg Live 10PM - 11PM
on now

he is on now

[kirklancaster]

I hate this racist son of a bitch with a passion. Just seeing her face makes me mad :laugh:

:clap1::clap1::clap1: As I have said on here before; I have detested her for years. She makes my blood boil.

[Johnnyuk123]

Corbyn is coming across as a right a hole. He doesn't know how too relax and have a bit of fun.

[Kizzy]

I don't like my politicians acting as laughing dancing fools so that's good.

[joeysteele]

I don't like my politicians acting as laughing dancing fools so that's good.

Is there anything in politics at present for any politician to be dancing around having fun at anyway.

They all look well down in the dumps to me.

[Kizzy]

Is there anything in politics at present for any politician to be dancing around having fun at anyway.

They all look well down in the dumps to me.

Well yes, it's a serious business isn't it? all this grandstanding 99% of the time is a front for a lack of focus on the issues that matter, or more importantly to distract from the more serious issues that matter.

[kirklancaster]

He may not laugh, he may not dance, but he is still a fool who is fooling no one.

Corbyn is especially miserable because as Leader, he is being FORCED - by the diktats of the pro-EU Labour Party - into being a HYPOCRITE and feign a 'Pro-EU' stance, when he is is and always has been staunchly ANTI-EU.

To be fair to the man, he is transparently only GRUDGINGLY and 'half-heartedly' 'going through the motions' in his enforced role, and his body language and obvious unwillingness to LIE and 'wax lyrical' 'Cameron-style' about the 'Benefits' of remaining in the corrupt EU is a some sort of credit to him.

If he was NOT Party Leader there is no doubt that Corbyn would be a much more vocal, much more enthusiastic, and much more militant member of Lexit.

The Labour Party are a fecking DISGRACE of a party now because of their support of Remaining in the EU - a corrupt and failing organisation whose anti-Democratic, anti-Working Class, pro-Corporation ethos is the diametric opposite of EVERYTHING the Labour Party once stood for.

This will be the end of Cameron, the end of Corbyn, and probably the end of the now puke-inducing Labour Party.

Thank God for all three.

[Kizzy]

Jeremy Corbyn has said he is about "seven and seven and half out of ten" enthusiastic about staying in the European Union.

He said he will not share at platform with David Cameron because he is "making a completely different argument".

Appeared on Channel 4 comedy show The Last Leg, he said "[Mr Cameron] wants a Europe for the free market, he wants a Europe dominated by global corporations. I suspect he wants to sign the Transatlantic Investment Partnership.

"I want to see a Europe that is about social cohesion, that is about better human rights, that is about workers' rights, that is also about taking a European approach to helping victims of wars who are going through the most appalling situation on the borders of Europe at the moment. There has to be a humanitarian response.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-is-enthusiastic-about-staying-in-the-eu-but-wont-share-a-platform-with-david-a7075626.html

[DemolitionRed]

Corbyn has certainly gagged his opinion of the EU during this campaign and I think he’s a wise man for doing so. The one thing Corbyn posses more than any other Labour leader to date is, he’s an independent thinker who certainly doesn’t suffer from ‘closed mind syndrome’. Regardless of what Corbyn thinks, he's wise enough to know that his voters are mainly pro-Europe and so voting out would not only cause internal wars within his own party, but loss of votes from those who decided to reject Conservatism.

I’m voting out but I’m quietly pleased that the Labour party I support are being tactical. The chances are we won’t be leaving Europe and if we don’t, the Labour party will hugely benefit and can only grow in strength. If we do leave Europe, Corbyn still benefits because he’s been seen to be sitting on his hands and his pro-EU speeches come over somewhat begrudgingly. The one thing he’s succeeded in doing is keeping his party our of the headlines.

[kirklancaster]

Jeremy Corbyn has said he is about "seven and seven and half out of ten" enthusiastic about staying in the European Union.

He said he will not share at platform with David Cameron because he is "making a completely different argument".

Appeared on Channel 4 comedy show The Last Leg, he said "[Mr Cameron] wants a Europe for the free market, he wants a Europe dominated by global corporations. I suspect he wants to sign the Transatlantic Investment Partnership.

"I want to see a Europe that is about social cohesion, that is about better human rights, that is about workers' rights, that is also about taking a European approach to helping victims of wars who are going through the most appalling situation on the borders of Europe at the moment. There has to be a humanitarian response.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-is-enthusiastic-about-staying-in-the-eu-but-wont-share-a-platform-with-david-a7075626.html


1. In 1975, he voted against membership of the EU during the referendum on whether Britain should remain part of the Common Market. Asked about how he voted back then during a rally in 2015, Mr Corbyn told Reuters: “I did vote and I voted ‘No’."

2. He also voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 and then against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.

3. In an article on his website from 2009, which has since been deleted, Mr Corbyn said that the EU had “always suffered a serious democratic deficit”. He said: “The project has always been to create a huge free-market Europe, with ever-limiting powers for national parliaments and an increasingly powerful common foreign and security policy."

4. He claimed the European Central Bank would "undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom — or any other Government — would wish to carry out.”

5. During the Labour leadership contest last year, he was asked how he would campaign in the referendum- to which he replied: "I would advocate a No vote if we are going to get an imposition of free market policies across Europe". He went on to criticise the "growing military links" with Nato and called for trade union "harmonisation" across the bloc, "rather than just allowing it as a business free-for-all across Europe".

6. In a Huffington Post article, Mr Corbyn implied the EU was treating Greece "brutally." He said: "If Europe becomes a totally brutal organisation that treats every one of its member states in the way that the people of Greece have been treated at the moment, then I think Europe will lose a lot of support from a lot of people."

7. Criticising the TTIP negotiations between the EU and the US for their secrecy, he claimed meetings were "stuffed full of highly effective corporate lobbyists doing their best to develop their own interests.”


Corbyn has also been accused of "rewriting history" after deleting anti-EU artciles from his blog

8. As recorded in Hansard, the MP said Britain was powerless to fix fraud allegations in EU institutions, adding money often seemed to find its way "into the hands of the Mafia or into grandiose, unwanted and often badly-built construction projects that are of no use to anybody”.

9. At a hustings in Warrington, the Labour leader said he would not rule out campaigning to Leave. He said: "I think we should be making demands: universal workers' rights, universal environmental protection, end the race to the bottom on corporate taxation, end the race to the bottom in wage protection.
“And I think we should be making those demands and negotiating on those demands rather than saying blankly we're going to support whatever Cameron comes out with in one, two years' time, whenever he finally decides to hold this referendum."

10. An article, which has also been removed from Mr Corbyn’s website, blamed the EU for the abuse of human rights in the Western Sahara. He said: “The EU, to its shame, concluded a special trade agreement with Morocco for fishing rights that includes the waters off the Western Sahara. In doing so, it authorised the plunder of natural resources on a grand scale with no benefit at all the Saharawi people."

He would have WON more respect and not lost any existing respect some may have had for him, if he had NOT prostituted his principles and resigned as Labour's 'puppet leader' so that he could fight tooth and nail as a TRUE Socialist for the cause he TRULY believes in - A BREXIT.

[Kizzy]

“So you’re the person in power, taking difficult decisions, some people support you, some people don’t support you, but you become a figure of controversy and some people, they go out and they protest against you. That’s my type of politics.

“You’re the face on the placard. Jeremy’s the guy with the placard. He’s the guy holding it. One’s the politics of power, and the other’s the politics of protest. And the two are different. And in the end, if you want to change people’s lives, you’ve got to be for the politics of power.”

Skewed view here, Jeremy has no 'power' as yet as he isn't 'in' power.
There is nothing to say that if he were there would be any placards either, Blair the warmonger wouldn't understand that though.


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-tony-blair-politics-of-protest-bloomberg_uk_5758129fe4b014b4f2530c76

[Johnnyuk123]

[/B]

1. In 1975, he voted against membership of the EU during the referendum on whether Britain should remain part of the Common Market. Asked about how he voted back then during a rally in 2015, Mr Corbyn told Reuters: “I did vote and I voted ‘No’."

2. He also voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 and then against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.

3. In an article on his website from 2009, which has since been deleted, Mr Corbyn said that the EU had “always suffered a serious democratic deficit”. He said: “The project has always been to create a huge free-market Europe, with ever-limiting powers for national parliaments and an increasingly powerful common foreign and security policy."

4. He claimed the European Central Bank would "undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom — or any other Government — would wish to carry out.”

5. During the Labour leadership contest last year, he was asked how he would campaign in the referendum- to which he replied: "I would advocate a No vote if we are going to get an imposition of free market policies across Europe". He went on to criticise the "growing military links" with Nato and called for trade union "harmonisation" across the bloc, "rather than just allowing it as a business free-for-all across Europe".

6. In a Huffington Post article, Mr Corbyn implied the EU was treating Greece "brutally." He said: "If Europe becomes a totally brutal organisation that treats every one of its member states in the way that the people of Greece have been treated at the moment, then I think Europe will lose a lot of support from a lot of people."

7. Criticising the TTIP negotiations between the EU and the US for their secrecy, he claimed meetings were "stuffed full of highly effective corporate lobbyists doing their best to develop their own interests.”


Corbyn has also been accused of "rewriting history" after deleting anti-EU artciles from his blog

8. As recorded in Hansard, the MP said Britain was powerless to fix fraud allegations in EU institutions, adding money often seemed to find its way "into the hands of the Mafia or into grandiose, unwanted and often badly-built construction projects that are of no use to anybody”.

9. At a hustings in Warrington, the Labour leader said he would not rule out campaigning to Leave. He said: "I think we should be making demands: universal workers' rights, universal environmental protection, end the race to the bottom on corporate taxation, end the race to the bottom in wage protection.
“And I think we should be making those demands and negotiating on those demands rather than saying blankly we're going to support whatever Cameron comes out with in one, two years' time, whenever he finally decides to hold this referendum."

10. An article, which has also been removed from Mr Corbyn’s website, blamed the EU for the abuse of human rights in the Western Sahara. He said: “The EU, to its shame, concluded a special trade agreement with Morocco for fishing rights that includes the waters off the Western Sahara. In doing so, it authorised the plunder of natural resources on a grand scale with no benefit at all the Saharawi people."

He would have WON more respect and not lost any existing respect some may have had for him, if he had NOT prostituted his principles and resigned as Labour's 'puppet leader' so that he could fight tooth and nail as a TRUE Socialist for the cause he TRULY believes in - A BREXIT.



:worship::worship::worship:

[Kizzy]

Has he not stated there are issues? it's honest to state things are not 100% fantastic in relation to the EU, it would be wrong of him to say it was.
Nothing is ever perfect, is brexit a perfect option? no, of couse it isn't with the uncertainty surrounding it.
At least with remain we can see what we would cherry pick, workers rights and other protections TTIP however is a massive thorn in remains side with good reason.

Would the 'lucky dip' that is brexit calm all fears of a non democratic UK, what's all this about soverienty? our sovereign has no say in how government is conducted so basically if there are no EU laws all we have are ours; Which, as we know can be amended on a whim with no consultation or vote...That is less democratic and more autocratic, therefore that's what brexit represents for me.

[kirklancaster]

LEFT LEAVE
CAMPAIGN FOR A UK LEFT EXIT FROM THE EU

The left wing case for leaving the EU

The EU is undemocratic and unaccountable argues JOHN KING. There are good left wing reasons to be against it.

Despite the denials by our political and media elite, the most important issue of the 2015 election was Britain’s membership of the European Union. Nearly four million votes went to Ukip, a party that has been consistently abused and dismissed by our controllers, with much of that support coming from former Labour voters, while big numbers of people backed the little-loved Conservatives.

Both parties offered referendums on Britain leaving the EU – Ukip powerfully, the Tories reluctantly. It is not hard to work out why they did so well, yet there is still little acknowledgement of this fact from the establishment. An arrogant refusal to listen to the public has left Labour and the Liberal Democrats in tatters. Nick Clegg could moan about “identity” politics in the election’s aftermath, but this matters to the majority of people.

Our membership of the EU undermined the major debates and warped most of the policies being put forward in the build-up to the election. The EU will influence the future of the NHS just as it helped smooth Tory privatisation of the Post Office and the organisational break-up of the railways; it is in tune with austerity and drives a larger and more deadly version in the eurozone; it escalates problems linked to housing, work, wages and education; creates worry and stirs up anger and threatens people’s sense of self. A lazy acceptance of establishment propaganda and a fear of being branded “xenophobic” have silenced many liberals and left-wingers. And yet the EU is driven by big business. This is a very corporate coup.

It is essential to understand where the EU is heading. The mission? To create a centralised superstate. As the former European Commission president José Manuel Barroso said in 2007: “. . . I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of empire. We have the dimension of empire.” While there have been idealists involved and progressive laws made along the way, at its core it is undemocratic and distant, a threat to all those living in its shadow. However sweet the propaganda, it is a tool for multinationals, another part of the globalisation process.

A majority of the British population is either opposed to or sceptical about our inclusion in the EU, and yet any serious discussion of what it represents and where it is leading is near enough impossible. Instead we have McCarthy-like campaigns directed at those who have a different vision for Britain and the other member countries.

However, decades of pro-EU spin have failed to convince the mass of working people of its worth; the only reason their opposition has been so restrained is the secrecy and speed of the takeover. This has occurred across generations, a slow-motion transfer of control, driven by the rich and powerful. Our leaders are complicit, know where their futures rest. There are careers to protect and promote, fortunes to be made. The feelings of the wider society are ignored.

The idea put across by its promoters, that the EU is somehow synonymous with “Europe”, is nonsense and yet this use of language has become commonplace. We are told that to be anti-EU is to be “anti-European”, but, in reality, to oppose the EU makes you pro-European. If Europe is its people and cultures then it is surely better that France, Greece, Poland and every other member state becomes a proper democracy again. If the main legacy of the European Enlightenment was the collectivisation of political power in the hands of the masses, then the EU model is the antithesis of this: centralising decision-taking in the hands of an unaccountable technocratic elite.

A single European nation suits the US government, its multinationals and its military. One leader is a lot easier to deal with than many. The same goes for a single currency. This is clear in moves by the EU and the US to impose the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), which will allow the corporations of both blocs the chance to exploit each other’s markets, smoothing out “obstacles” in the process. The NHS would be targeted by US health-care companies and trade union rights threatened. Negotiations to bring in TTIP have been taking place in secret. There is no voting involved, no pretence at democracy, little proper coverage by the media. The main parties are broadly supportive. With TTIP comes the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) system, whereby business can take governments to court if its profits are infringed upon. This is mind-blowing stuff, but our politicians say nothing.

The media tell us that the Tories are anti-EU while Labour and the Lib Dems are fighting their narrow-mindedness, and Ukip is dismissed as a far-right group bordering on the fascist. This is bubblegum politics. Little Europeans sneer “Little Englander” at those with a different opinion, peddling stereotypes, unwilling to consider the bigger arguments.

That it was the Conservatives who took Britain into a six-nation EEC in 1973 is dismissed. This was a betrayal of the Commonwealth, which a mere 28 years earlier had fought with us against two of these countries, the then fascist Germany and Italy. Commonwealth economies suffered as a result. Prime Minister Ted Heath insisted that the Common Market was no more than a trade arrangement, but a large chunk of the population was outraged and saw it for what it was, and Heath would later admit he had lied about its long-term goal. Labour was socialist at this point and along with the trade unions naturally opposed the Tories. Despite some big talk, Margaret Thatcher and John Major did not take us out, while Tony Blair would have joined the eurozone if he’d had his way. Backing the EU because the Tories are supposedly against it is pathetic. The EU is not a party issue. It is much more important.

David Cameron is softly pro-EU but has been forced into holding a referendum by rebel elements in his party. Ed Miliband was also a firm supporter, his own sceptical backbenchers keeping quiet for fear of being branded right-wing by the Labour Party’s thought police.

Last year saw the death of two genuinely left-wing figures within a matter of days in Tony Benn and Bob Crow. These were honest men who refused to bend to the group mind. They were idealists and knew where the EU was leading us. In later life Benn was patronised as a well-meaning crank when he tried to talk seriously about the EU. Crow died young and his dream of a left-wing, anti-EU party will be harder to achieve now he is gone. But this is what Britain needs. Urgently.

The move towards a European state is a long way down the line and yet even this simple truth is denied by those whose careers are sewn into the process. According to House of Commons Library research, if one counts regulations as well as directives, half of all UK laws are derived from Brussels, measures that cannot be reversed once passed; but if even one law is made outside parliament, then that is a huge abuse of power.

The EU has a president and a militarised police force in EUROGENDFOR, is pushing for its own army, and has helped stir up the crisis in Ukraine with its expansionism. Its single currency has caused untold misery for tens of millions of working people across Europe, yet there is no apology, just an arrogant demand for greater powers. The Greeks are branded lazy and forced to cut services in return for more loans.

If there is a referendum on our EU membership in this new parliament, the propaganda unleashed by the establishment will be unparalleled. From the Guardian to the Times, from the BBC to Rupert Murdoch, our masters will close ranks as withdrawal is deemed a disaster. But would Britain be damaged? For a start, we would save roughly £10bn a year in our net handout to the EU. This is a huge sum, which, if used properly, would benefit those who actually pay these taxes. The idea that our neighbours would no longer trade with us is simply untrue. Trade would continue and we would be able to deal with the rest of the world more freely. Only about 15 per cent of British GDP is accounted for by our exports to the rest of the EU and this percentage is falling as the eurozone stagnates. The future for Britain lies in building ever better trade relations with the economically expanding parts of the world, such as the Commonwealth countries. Britain would be liberated.

Most of the arguments against EU membership are left-leaning and liberal. Ukip has done so well because it tells the truth about the EU, even if some of its tactics and emphases put people off. That it can pull in Labour voters despite its Thatcherite, non-patriotic economics is revealing. Just as depressing has been the cowardice of the so-called independent parties. The Greens, the SNP and Plaid Cymru exist to promote localism and the devolution of power, yet they refuse to challenge an EU that is about the centralising of power.

The Scottish referendum quickly became about money rather than identity, yet few talked seriously about the madness of a standalone Scotland re-entering the EU as a new applicant and adopting the euro. Why would the SNP want to gain independence and then hand it over to a larger, more remote body, where it would have less say than now in how it runs its own affairs? Why would it want to have even less control of its economy? You have only to look at Sinn Fein’s attempts to keep Ireland out of the euro for a comparison. The whole debate about Scotland leaving the UK seems pretty pointless if the SNP’s willingness to join the EU isn’t challenged. If Scotland had its own currency and rejected Brussels it would make sense, but leave the UK and join the EU instead?

***

Open borders are essential to the EU’s single state. It makes for a more mobile (often cheaper) workforce on one level, allows business and the wealthy easy access on another. It will also change voting patterns, as there will come a point when elections are going to be open to whoever lives in a country at a given time. There has always been movement of people and there always will be. Leaving the EU will not stop this, just take us away from the Fortress Europe model.

Ukip targets poorer workers, warning of the threat to working-class jobs and wages in the same way certain trade unions do, but it ignores “high-end” immigration and the negative effect this has had on the lives of the everyday person, especially in and around London. This probably hindered the party in last month’s election, limiting the swing from Labour. Everything we have has been put up for sale and the rich and powerful of the world are making a fortune at our expense. House prices are driven up and new properties sold as investments rather than homes. In large areas of London local people have been driven out, their culture erased. This creates huge ripples that spread through the rest of the country. It is natural to feel angry at this unfairness.

We are continually told that Britain’s muted opposition to the EU is somehow a quirk that shows us to be intolerant, but we are one of the most open-minded countries in the world. And the idea that every European is happy being in the EU is untrue. Most are resigned, feel more powerless and despondent than we do. The need for a left-wing opposition to the EU should be taken care of by the Labour Party, but it lost its nerve when Thatcher was in power, along with elements in the trade union movement, selling its soul to Brussels in return for some positive legislation. Then it was hijacked and turned into New Labour. Its collapse in the election is a continuation of this thread. Too many voters see it as hypocritical, unpatriotic, politically correct and in the hands of an aloof, wealthy clique.

Most important in all this is people’s sense of identity. This is seldom mentioned by anyone with a public voice, perhaps for fear of being branded “racist”. The less you have, maybe the more your identity matters, and the powerful elite do not have the right to sell this off to the EU or anyone else. Our controllers, tucked away in their big houses, worshipping money either openly or from behind their fake-liberal lectures, do not understand or care about this, and yet it is in the mass population that the real integration has always occurred, where diversity isn’t measured by the colour of your skin. This is ongoing, part of the British tradition. It is no shame to want to preserve your culture.

***

During this year’s election campaign Tony Blair argued that the people should not be given the chance to vote in an EU referendum because, in effect, we could not be trusted to make the “sensible choice”. His elitist questioning of the intelligence of the electorate is no different from those 19th-century reactionary Tories who argued on similar grounds that the franchise should not be extended to women and the working class. Most within our political and media classes and big business seem to think the same way as Blair, want the EU issue sidelined, ruled off-limits for democratic debate.

The EU offers us little. It costs billions to belong to a club that interferes in our affairs and has created needless divisions, one that will ultimately lead to our removal from the map. If a European superstate is achieved, the resentment and anger will flow through the centuries to come, creating resistance movements right across the continent.

Leaving the EU would save Britain money that could (in the right hands) be ploughed back into the public sector to safeguard jobs and services. And yet, nearly every mainstream politician lifts his nose in the air and turns away, embarrassed at ideas he considers crass. Across the world people are fighting to be more independent, not less so. They crave democracy and accountability, want to see their identities and cultures live on. The European Union is not new and it is not progressive, its trail winding back to the Roman empire. Britain needs to look to the future.

John King is the author of novels such as “The Football Factory” and “Human Punk”. He has acted as an adviser for the People’s Pledge and co-owns London Books

From New Statesman

[DemolitionRed]

TSCKW2rS8_I

[Kizzy]

'For generations, the Tory party has claimed to be the patriot’s choice. In grand gestures it has been bigger and bolder, but, at the same time, it allows the rich of this country and the wider world to become even richer at the expense of the people. Everything is put up for sale as it runs down the nation it says it loves, makes its citizens pay for the actions of the banks, allows its front benches to be controlled by multimillionaires with no clue what it is like to start from scratch and struggle for every pound coin. Rampant free enterprise is never going to be patriotic, but the Tories keep on flying the Union Jack, which has been neatly folded and handed to them on a plate by Labour.

When Orwell was writing “The Lion and the Unicorn”, Britain was involved in a war against fascism, and for a while stood up to Nazi Germany alone, and that is something of which to be very proud. The punk band Cockney Rejects put it this way in one of their greatest songs, “Power and the Glory”: “And the fat men sat in office blocks/Said ‘look, we won the war’/And the tears we shed over our dead/Made us hate them all the more”.

Patriotic socialism makes us proud of our ancestors and our history, angry at the establishment. Cock Sparrer, one of the biggest British punk bands, say it all in the chorus of “England Belongs to Me”: “No one can take away our memory/England belongs to me”.

If Labour is to succeed again, it needs to understand the patriotism of the people it aspires to speak for and represent.'

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/01/why-are-so-many-left-embarrassed-patriotism

I'm confused ...this guy sounds genuine, and I can identify with his comments and agree in theory... however, his punk lyric analogies are a bit strange seeing as punk itself is often confused between nationalist and fascistic ideological themes at the core.
To cite them as a counter in his argument against Labour I feel is hypocrytical .

[the truth]

Brilliant article , absolutely spot on. this is what corbyn used to say before he sold out all his principles and deleted all his blogs too

[DemolitionRed]

Great article Kizzy :)

[arista]

On Ch4HD Live last night
JC gave staying in the EU
7 out of 10,

Reported on BBC News today

[MTVN]

Read today that 40% of Labour members do not know the party's position on the EU. Corbyn is failing miserably to galvanise the Labour In campaign because we all know that his support for Remain is lukewarm at best

[joeysteele]

Read today that 40% of Labour members do not know the party's position on the EU. Corbyn is failing miserably to galvanise the Labour In campaign because we all know that his support for Remain is lukewarm at best

To be fair, I think we would find a good number of MPs and the public who what to stay in are of the lukewarm basis.

He has voted against the treaties,fair enough but his idea of what he'd like the EU to be is different from how it is.
However as to how he voted in 1975, just about all my family for instance who were eligible to in 1975, voted no,however this time they are voting to remain.

He can dislike the EU and not support the treaties but still feel there are benefits to remaining in, and if given the chance,he could then try to get the reform of the EU he wants.

Working from within an organisation you have the chance of getting some or even great change,out you get nothing.
That is what he likely sees as to the EU.

Many who voted yes to staying in 1975, will now be voting leave, and there will be those who voted no, now voting to remain in this one.
People do change their minds and to see some good in any organisation does not mean you have to totally agree with all of it and what it does.

Anyhow, he has the Tooting by election next Thursday the 16th June, the Conservatives were less than 3,000 votes behind Labour in May last year.
It will be interesting to see what Labour does there now and what happens to the conservatives, Lib Dem and particularly UKIP vote too.
These are the things that will in the end determine what sort or long term future he has in Labour as to leading it,not the EU.

[MTVN]

To be fair, I think we would find a good number of MPs and the public who what to stay in are of the lukewarm basis.

He has voted against the treaties,fair enough but his idea of what he'd like the EU to be is different from how it is.
However as to how he voted in 1975, just about all my family for instance who were eligible to in 1975, voted no,however this time they are voting to remain.

He can dislike the EU and not support the treaties but still feel there are benefits to remaining in, and if given the chance,he could then try to get the reform of the EU he wants.

Working from within an organisation you have the chance of getting some or even great change,out you get nothing.
That is what he likely sees as to the EU.

Many who voted yes to staying in 1975, will now be voting leave, and there will be those who voted no, now voting to remain in this one.
People do change their minds and to see some good in any organisation does not mean you have to totally agree with all of it and what it does.

Anyhow, he has the Tooting by election next Thursday the 16th June, the Conservatives were less than 3,000 votes behind Labour in May last year.
It will be interesting to see what Labour does there now and what happens to the conservatives, Lib Dem and particularly UKIP vote too.
These are the things that will in the end determine what sort or long term future he has in Labour as to leading it,not the EU.

I don't disagree with any of that but it feels like Corbyn never makes a speech on the EU without attacking some aspect of it, and like Sturgeon he has undermined the Remain campaign by saying that a lot of its claims are exaggerated. I know the EU isn't perfect but right now the focus has to be on its benefits and drumming home the pro-EU message as much as possible. This is serious now - for the first time I'm actually thinking that the referendum result might be Leave. Labour is the strongest party on the Remain side but it doesn't feel like they are doing everything they can to rally their supporters. Worrying times.

[joeysteele]

I don't disagree with any of that but it feels like Corbyn never makes a speech on the EU without attacking some aspect of it, and like Sturgeon he has undermined the Remain campaign by saying that a lot of its claims are exaggerated. I know the EU isn't perfect but right now the focus has to be on its benefits and drumming home the pro-EU message as much as possible. This is serious now - for the first time I'm actually thinking that the referendum result might be Leave. Labour is the strongest party on the Remain side but it doesn't feel like they are doing everything they can to rally their supporters. Worrying times.

I think MTVN, you will find the greater part of Labour are lukewam to the EU still from all its grievances towards it in the 80s.
However most believe we are better in than out even with its faults.

The Labour party was once branded dangerous and loonies for wanting to pull out of Europe,by Conservatives.
How times change.

However,I admit I could have been persuaded to leave had I seen any real substantiated blueprint for what out really means from the leave side.
That has been and is still wholly absent,so I am voting to remain.

It doesn't mean I like all about the EU or that I do not want to change a lot of it.
It is not really though, just Corbyn who is lukewarm to the EU, despite saying remain, a great number among the labour movement feel the same.
Out for them however, is not an option.

Maybe the case could be made stronger I admit from the leadership,that has disappointed me too as a member,however I am for a time out every day almost, with other Labour members, and other parties canvassers too, on the streets and knocking on doors, trying to persuade people to vote to remain if I can in any way.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't disagree with any of that but it feels like Corbyn never makes a speech on the EU without attacking some aspect of it, and like Sturgeon he has undermined the Remain campaign by saying that a lot of its claims are exaggerated. I know the EU isn't perfect but right now the focus has to be on its benefits and drumming home the pro-EU message as much as possible. This is serious now - for the first time I'm actually thinking that the referendum result might be Leave. Labour is the strongest party on the Remain side but it doesn't feel like they are doing everything they can to rally their supporters. Worrying times.

Hedging their bets? I mean, there's little Boris or Farage can do to mitigate the damage if we don't leave Europe. Personally I think Labour sitting in the shadows of this referendum is a very cunning option.

[Kizzy]

As said on another thread if Farage, Hopkins and bojo want out I want in!

[empire]

corbyn is the poor modern day arthur scargill, and we know what scargill put in those poor miners heads with, communist bulls''t,what corbyn fails to understand, in what the working class want for the future of this country, or change, does not fit into his picture, where we just give everything to the world and are left with nothing, and because most people do not want his parties far-left ideologies, he just won't listen to the class of people who where abandoned years ago by the party.

[Kizzy]

corbyn is the poor modern day arthur scargill, and we know what scargill put in those poor miners heads with, communist bulls''t,what corbyn fails to understand, in what the working class want for the future of this country, or change, does not fit into his picture, where we just give everything to the world and are left with nothing, and because most people do not want his parties far-left ideologies, he just won't listen to the class of people who where abandoned years ago by the party.

Yes it was Arthur Scargills fault coal industry was outsourced overseas.
As was I suppose the govt/police corruption that was Orgreave?

[DemolitionRed]

corbyn is the poor modern day arthur scargill, and we know what scargill put in those poor miners heads with, communist bulls''t,what corbyn fails to understand, in what the working class want for the future of this country, or change, does not fit into his picture, where we just give everything to the world and are left with nothing, and because most people do not want his parties far-left ideologies, he just won't listen to the class of people who where abandoned years ago by the party.

Arthur Scargill things Corbyn is a traitor to socialism.

What do the working class want for the future of this country? I think they want affordable housing, a salary that keeps up with inflation, a job, an NHS. They don't want bedroom tax which is aimed at the poor and they don't want zero hour contracts which again is aimed at the poor.

That's not far left, that's equality within a democracy and that's something the right are not only taking away from the working class but the middle class too. The longer we remain a neoliberal economy, the more we will have people looking towards a people's government.

[the truth]

Arthur Scargill things Corbyn is a traitor to socialism.

What do the working class want for the future of this country? I think they want affordable housing, a salary that keeps up with inflation, a job, an NHS. They don't want bedroom tax which is aimed at the poor and they don't want zero hour contracts which again is aimed at the poor.

That's not far left, that's equality within a democracy and that's something the right are not only taking away from the working class but the middle class too. The longer we remain a neoliberal economy, the more we will have people looking towards a people's government.

they want a healthy economy more than anything because thats what pays for all of the above

[arista]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777

Tick Tock , today

[Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey confirmed
the move in a letter to the chairman
of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
The motion has no formal constitutional
force but calls for a discussion at their
next PLP meeting on Monday.]

[arista]

Labour MP Caroline Flint
was Angry Live on BBCNewsHD
she said Corbyn must talk about the
Labour Voters that voted to Leave.
She wants a Debate Now - Today


She also said Ed Miliband failed that as well.

[DemolitionRed]

So TWO disaffected Labour MPs have tabled a motion of no confidence in Corbyn... what's new?

He was elected leader by a huge majority vote of the membership of the party, not by the privileged MPs. That may of course change... but it will take rather more than two MPs to change it.

[joeysteele]

So TWO disaffected Labour MPs have tabled a motion of no confidence in Corbyn... what's new?

He was elected leader by a huge majority vote of the membership of the party, not by the privileged MPs. That may of course change... but it will take rather more than two MPs to change it.

Not if he could be advised and then persuaded for the good of the party to resign as leader and stand down.
Politics can be brutal as I am sure you know DemRed, and behind the scenes,it is amazing what is discussed and brought to fruition.

[arista]

DR
Stephen Kinnock as well now

[kirklancaster]

I love the way all the Labour Luvvies are scapegoating poor Corbyn.

The fault is theirs - for being out of touch with their grass roots members - and Corbyn has proved that he has at least, more integrity than the lot of them put together, because far from his comment about 'No upper EU limit to immigration' being a stupid 'faux pas', it was actually the deliberate act of a man frustrated by being shackled and gagged from speaking his TRUE anti-EU feelings, by way of being Party Leader.

[the truth]

I love the way all the Labour Luvvies are scapegoating poor Corbyn.

The fault is theirs - for being out of touch with their grass roots members - and Corbyn has proved that he has at least, more integrity than the lot of them put together, because far from his comment about 'No upper EU limit to immigration' being a stupid 'faux pas', it was actually the deliberate act of a man frustrated by being shackled and gagged from speaking his TRUE anti-EU feelings, by way of being Party Leader.

he should have spoken from his heart throughout, he bottled it

[DemolitionRed]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit

Dame Margaret said Mr Corbyn should resign because the EU referendum had been a test of leadership that he had "failed".

Ok, I may be missing the point (I have been sipping wine since this morning's news) how was this a test for Mr Corbyn?

[kirklancaster]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit

Dame Margaret said Mr Corbyn should resign because the EU referendum had been a test of leadership that he had "failed".

Ok, I may be missing the point (I have been sipping wine since this morning's news) how was this a test for Mr Corbyn?

It wasn't. I actually feel sorry for the guy.

:laugh: Oh - I just twigged about the wine. :joker: Where were you on the EU Results thread, some of us were on all night.

[empire]

corbyn has to resign, he went into bed with the pro eu westminster elite, and alienated the working class vote,

[joeysteele]

I love the way all the Labour Luvvies are scapegoating poor Corbyn.

The fault is theirs - for being out of touch with their grass roots members - and Corbyn has proved that he has at least, more integrity than the lot of them put together, because far from his comment about 'No upper EU limit to immigration' being a stupid 'faux pas', it was actually the deliberate act of a man frustrated by being shackled and gagged from speaking his TRUE anti-EU feelings, by way of being Party Leader.

I am not scapegoating him Kirk, however I have to say, I was campaigning like crazy with others for remain, with actually Conservative, Lib Dem and other Labour members/activists.

Seeing the support they got from Cameron and to be fair from Tim Farron too, I and my Labour friends at times felt abandoned by Corbyn.
Every time he did say something we got pulled up on doorsteps and at the street stalls asking was he for or against really.
It drove us nuts at times.

He did send mixed messages and I agree with 'the truth' he did go on a party line rather than his own.
Sorry however, I felt he was unconvincing and I really like the guy.

I envied the good support Conservative workers got from their party and David Cameron too.

He was actually elected to 'lead' the party, not run his own show, and a good leader once the party has agreed a position,has to be convincing and really stand up for that position.
Also making sure those working every day almost, get the full support he can give them, when they are asked and expected to push that party position.

[DemolitionRed]

It wasn't. I actually feel sorry for the guy.

:laugh: Oh - I just twigged about the wine. :joker: Where were you on the EU Results thread, some of us were on all night.

Guzzling wine with friends and then we all fell asleep. This is just hair of the dog :hehe:

[Black Dagger]

These ****ers haven't got behind him from the start, the bloody tory lite waste of spaces. He can carry on all he likes :clap1:

[empire]

amazing that alistair campbell/tony blair's adviser/ stated that the british people should not have been allowed a referendom and this silly woman thinks that people just voted to get rid of dodgy dave, that was really the small icing on the cake, she also claims that labour listen to people, well the opposite really, patronising and lecturing to them at the sametime, as a working class lad, I will tell labour this, you dismantled this country, and then gave more powers to the EUSSR, and threw money away that was to get jobs for are younger generation, shame on you labour, for trying to sell us out.

[DemolitionRed]

corbyn WILL win now that lying warmonger blair has backed against him....what an arrogant tosser he truly is
its NOT a matter of simply left or right, that argument is for dumbos
its a matter of looking at each individual issue on merit
fundamentally corbyn does want some redistribution of wealth....he was ferociously anti Iraq war so his judgement was great there...if he is smart enough to see where labour totally failed then he may get my vote. some sectors need to be renationalised , water gas electrics for starters and british rail and the steel and coal industries. its a joke to think any company can afford to maintain the tens of billions of infrasturctures required....in gas water electrics there is NO FREE MARKET NO COMPETITON AT ALL THEYRE SIMPLY FULL BLOWN MONOPOLIES AND PRICE FIXING CARTELS....id also have the monopolies and mergers commission investigate BT. who are attempting to take over the free world

I can't disagree with any of that. For me, Corbyn is the definition of optimism.

[DemolitionRed]

amazing that alistair campbell/tony blair's adviser/ stated that the british people should not have been allowed a referendom and this silly woman thinks that people just voted to get rid of dodgy dave, that was really the small icing on the cake, she also claims that labour listen to people, well the opposite really, patronising and lecturing to them at the sametime, as a working class lad, I will tell labour this, you dismantled this country, and then gave more powers to the EUSSR, and threw money away that was to get jobs for are younger generation, shame on you labour, for trying to sell us out.

Can you move on from Blairite sytle Labour?

[Johnnyuk123]

I love the way all the Labour Luvvies are scapegoating poor Corbyn.

The fault is theirs - for being out of touch with their grass roots members - and Corbyn has proved that he has at least, more integrity than the lot of them put together, because far from his comment about 'No upper EU limit to immigration' being a stupid 'faux pas', it was actually the deliberate act of a man frustrated by being shackled and gagged from speaking his TRUE anti-EU feelings, by way of being Party Leader.

I've never liked him since he did that minute silence years ago for the IRA terrorists.:nono:

[arista]

A 2nd Cabinet Minister has Left Corbyn


http://redonline.cdnds.net/main/thumbs/20181/heidi_alexander__landscape.jpg
Women Alexander Health Minister
has Walked.


Benn Jr Was Sacked




To Give Credit to Corbyn
he has said
he was Elected by Millions Massive Amount
(and Daily Telegraph readers)

[joeysteele]

What a mess,I am furious with this.

He was totally wrong to sack Hilary Benn and for me this is the last straw.
I am as a member and Labour campaigner still dismayed at his lacklustre performance in the EU issue and for me now, we have to get a new leader and rapidly.

I have really had enough.
This has to be the end of his leadership for me.

He was elected by a big margin no doubt, he has let the whole Labour movement down despite that victory by dividing the party more rather than bringing it more together.
There comes a time when enough really is enough.

[arista]

What a mess,I am furious with this.

He was totally wrong to sack Hilary Benn and for me this is the last straw.
I am as a member and Labour campaigner still dismayed at his lacklustre performance in the EU issue and for me now, we have to get a new leader and rapidly.

I have really had enough.
This has to be the end of his leadership for me.

He was elected by a big margin no doubt, he has let the whole Labour movement down despite that victory by dividing the party more rather than bringing it more together.
There comes a time when enough really is enough.



He had No Choice
Benn said he no longer had Confidence in Corbyn
Joey - you would do the same thing
if it was you

[arista]

http://redonline.cdnds.net/main/thumbs/20181/heidi_alexander__landscape.jpg
This One Walked


More to Walk Out soon........

[DemolitionRed]

Any of us who understand Corbyn politics also understand that he's a long standing Brexiteer, but the number one goal of the Labour Party is to get in government and by extension, get the Tories out, so I understand why he sat on the fence regarding Brexit. He cocked up because sadly, the only way the Labour Party was going to get into government was to appeal to people who are not natural Labour supporters.

Corbyn, better than anyone, will have a clear idea of what direction the country should be led outside of the EU. Now should be the time to set out his plans for our future because right now Corbyn is the only voice we can rely on, without him there is no defence to what is happening all around us. Its not going to happen though because the Labour lights are going to abandon him at this point and there is no principled and electable alternative. He will be replaced by a right wing Blairite MP in a right wing parliament. Is that what Labour supporters want? extremist right wing politicans on the fringe who have pushed through their right wing agenda. Back to old style New Labour who have enevitably become even more cuntish than before.

[arista]

Another Minister Gloria Del Piero
has now Resigned

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z7A3KKlFvXQ/0.jpg

[arista]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03046/Labour-Del-Piero_3046163k.jpg

http://news.sky.com/story/1717728/live-labour-at-war-as-leadership-coup-begins

Live news link

[joeysteele]

He had No Choice
Benn said he no longer had Confidence in Corbyn
Joey - you would do the same thing
if it was you

I think not, I would want to know how I could try to inspire again confidence in myself from a man in such an important role as one I had put in place as shadow Foreign secretary.

I certainly would not instantly just dismiss them late at night or through the night.

[arista]

I think not, I would want to know how I could try to inspire again confidence in myself from a man in such an important role as one I had put in place as shadow Foreign secretary.

I certainly would not instantly just dismiss them late at night or through the night.



Feck Me Joey
He was Live on Marr BBC1HD
he confirmed no confidence in Jeremy

[arista]

Another MP Ian Murray
has now Resigned
making 4 gone so far

[bots]

Another MP Ian Murray
has now Resigned
making 4 gone so far

Jeremy is going to have a bit of a task replacing him, he is the only Scottish labour mp :joker:

[arista]

Jeremy is going to have a bit of a task replacing him, he is the only Scottish labour mp :joker:



Another MP has just resigned
Lilian Greenwood

New Total 5

[kirklancaster]

Any of us who understand Corbyn politics also understand that he's a long standing Brexiteer, but the number one goal of the Labour Party is to get in government and by extension, get the Tories out, so I understand why he sat on the fence regarding Brexit. He cocked up because sadly, the only way the Labour Party was going to get into government was to appeal to people who are not natural Labour supporters.

Corbyn, better than anyone, will have a clear idea of what direction the country should be led outside of the EU. Now should be the time to set out his plans for our future because right now Corbyn is the only voice we can rely on, without him there is no defence to what is happening all around us. Its not going to happen though because the Labour lights are going to abandon him at this point and there is no principled and electable alternative. He will be replaced by a right wing Blairite MP in a right wing parliament. Is that what Labour supporters want? extremist right wing politicans on the fringe who have pushed through their right wing agenda. Back to old style New Labour who have enevitably become even more cuntish than before.

Excellent post with valid arguments, but when it comes to your question; "He will be replaced by a right wing Blairite MP in a right wing parliament. [B]Is that what Labour supporters want? - the fact that Labour supporters backed 'Remain' can only lead to the concluson that a lot of Labour Supporters are now more confused about their politics than ever. Which is sad.

[arista]

Now 6 MPs gone
Kerry McCarthy MP has Resigned

[arista]

Now 7 Gone
Lucy Powell MP has resigned
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03139/powell_miliband_3139146b.jpg
Lucy a few years back with Loser ED



7 new MP's he must find fast
Corbyn has now left his home

[bots]

how can a leader continue when 7+ members of his cabinet resign ... if he continues, labour will get slaughtered at the next election

[arista]

http://snappa.static.pressassociation.io/assets/2015/05/11145312/1431352389-079332b571af11b3176ed14f0e5267f1-600x656.jpg
Her with a Celeb - who keeps backing LOSERS

[arista]

how can a leader continue when 7+ members of his cabinet resign ... if he continues, labour will get slaughtered at the next election


He is Lucky its a Sunday.


Total is Now 8
Seema Mahora MP has Resigned

[billy123]

Labour needs to purge itself of these MP,s that dont uphold the beliefs of a leader that was elected by such a huge number of supporters.
Labour are dead in the water at the moment bogged down with MP,s that dont support the wishes of the people they will never win an election while so many of them dont even reflect the opinion of the people that support the party.
The ridding of the Blairites is a good thing.

[Wizard.]

I'm joining Conservatives, this sh*t show is embarrassing.

[Tom4784]

I'm joining Conservatives, this sh*t show is embarrassing.

Joining a party that were determined to cut tax credits and ESA and generally **** on the foreheads of the working class?

[Brother Leon]

If someone tries to organise a coup to oust you, damn straight you are going to sack them. You don't need snakes in your camp.

[Crimson Dynamo]

oh god what a tragic mess

[arista]

Labour needs to purge itself of these MP,s that dont uphold the beliefs of a leader that was elected by such a huge number of supporters.
Labour are dead in the water at the moment bogged down with MP,s that dont support the wishes of the people they will never win an election while so many of them dont even reflect the opinion of the people that support the party.
The ridding of the Blairites is a good thing.

Yes Lucy Powell MP that Bitch
resigned

[Kizzy]

If someone tries to organise a coup to oust you, damn straight you are going to sack them. You don't need snakes in your camp.

Exactly, he has done to jeremy what was done to his father for his principles many yrs ago, Hilary should be thoroughly ashamed.
The rest of the power hungry mob can walk if they like, this quote reminds me of corbyns reaction to brexit...

'In a Time of Universal Deceit — Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act'

What was wrong with saying he wasn't 100%, with so much uncertainty around leave and remain how could anyone in any honesty say any different?

[Crimson Dynamo]

8 now

:hehe: