[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Let's be real, all it's going to do at the end of the day is make it even harder for female victims of domestic abuse to be believed and taken seriously. Its unavoidable and no one's fault but Amber Heard's... But that is the sad reality. MRA's and incels and other assorted scum will be chanting "Yeah well, remember what happened with Johnny Depp!" every time a domestic abuse claim comes up.

Yes, that's the downside of it but those kinds of people would think that regardless but Amber Heard has certainly made things needlessly harder. I so hope she never works in Hollywood again.

The plus side is that people are going to see the things that Amber Heard has done and probably recognise it as abusive behaviour they see in their own relationships and hopefully that will help them break the cycle since a lot of people might not recognise such behaviour as abuse.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think this story has it's worth, as unpleasant as it is for it's a real life example of some vicious mental abuse and gaslighting. We rarely hear from male victims of domestic abuse and I don't think I've ever known such a high profile case of someone lying about being abused only to end up being the abuser themselves. If the story proves a person's innocence and can potentially help others by highlight abusive behaviours then it's worth occupying time and space in the public's mind.

It's not exactly a fluff piece.

Talking of vicious mental abuse there's no verdict yet, and here you are judge juror and executioner.
It's like the #be kind movement folowing Caroline Flack's suicide never happened....

obviously these two had a very volatile relationship, in this disgusting media circus there are no innocents both have been exposed. Neither are shrinking violets, Winona Ryder and Kate Moss weren't either.. if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred.
Blaming one party in the relationship is not right or fair the both had very glaring faults.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Talking of vicious mental abuse there's no verdict yet, and here you are judge juror and executioner.
It's like the #be kind movement folowing Caroline Flack's suicide never happened....

obviously these two had a very volatile relationship, in this disgusting media circus there are no innocents both have been exposed. Neither are shrinking violets, Winona Ryder and Kate Moss weren't either.. if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred.
Blaming one party in the relationship is not right or fair the both had very glaring faults.

I've heard the audio where she basically said that if Johnny went public with what she had done, that no one would believe him. To me, that is abuser speak and compiled with everything else that's come out about her, it's fairly obvious that she is the abuser in this situation. He wanted to leave her, she got crazier and crazier. Abusers don't typically want to give up control which makes Depp less likely to be the abuser in this case since he wanted the relationship to end.

Would you be saying that both sides were at fault if the genders were reversed? If Johnny Depp stepped forward as a victim to begin with but things were revealed that painted Amber Heard as the actual victim, would you be saying both sides were at fault? I'd be blaming Depp just the same as I'm blaming Heard now.

In abusive relationships, one side is always the abuser and the other is reacting to that abuse, It seems very much that Amber Heard preyed on his substance abuse issues and degraded the relationship to the point where he was broken and acting out so that she could act like the victim as she did originally and I believed her. Coercive control, physical abuse, emotional and psychological abuse. From what we've heard, Amber Heard is guilty of all of this. As I've said earlier in the topic, reacting badly to being abused over a period of time doesn't make you as bad as the abuser. There's a whole line of Depp's exes clamouring to his defense although they have no reason to which suggests that his actions in this relationship are an anomaly, a reaction to the abuse he's received at her hands.

To borrow an example from the soaps, as inappropriate as that may be, would you believe that Little Mo from Eastenders and Yasmeen from Corrie are just as abusive as their partners because they fought back? I wouldn't say so at all. When you break people down, they'll act out of character, it doesn't make it right but it doesn't make them abusive either.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

obviously these two had a very volatile relationship, in this disgusting media circus there are no innocents both have been exposed. Neither are shrinking violets, Winona Ryder and Kate Moss weren't either.. if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred.

I think this sort of flirts with the victim-blaming line to be honest Kizzy, which you can see quite clearly if you flip the script. Women who end up in abusive marriages quite often have a history of the same sort of aggressive, abusive boyfriends. Women who get out of abusive relationships quite often, sadly, end up going into yet another abusive relationship after finding themselves drawn once again to the same sort of person, believing that it'll be different.

There are obviously good, very explainable psychological reasons for that and it would be abhorrent for anyone to take an abused woman and say "Umm you've been with this sort of bloke before so you should have known what would happen".

You can only take things for what they are. Maybe some people are attracted to very "intense" individuals. It doesn't make it their fault if they're abused, lessen the severity, or make it questionable. I really can't see the semantic difference in saying "if you attract chaotic women" and "if you attract aggressive men".

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I've heard the audio where she basically said that if Johnny went public with what she had done, that no one would believe him. To me, that is abuser speak and compiled with everything else that's come out about her, it's fairly obvious that she is the abuser in this situation. He wanted to leave her, she got crazier and crazier. Abusers don't typically want to give up control which makes Depp less likely to be the abuser in this case since he wanted the relationship to end.



Would you be saying that both sides were at fault if the genders were reversed? If Johnny Depp stepped forward as a victim to begin with but things were revealed that painted Amber Heard as the actual victim, would you be saying both sides were at fault? I'd be blaming Depp just the same as I'm blaming Heard now.



In abusive relationships, one side is always the abuser and the other is reacting to that abuse, It seems very much that Amber Heard preyed on his substance abuse issues and degraded the relationship to the point where he was broken and acting out so that she could act like the victim as she did originally and I believed her. Coercive control, physical abuse, emotional and psychological abuse. From what we've heard, Amber Heard is guilty of all of this. As I've said earlier in the topic, reacting badly to being abused over a period of time doesn't make you as bad as the abuser. There's a whole line of Depp's exes clamouring to his defense although they have no reason to which suggests that his actions in this relationship are an anomaly, a reaction to the abuse he's received at her hands.



To borrow an example from the soaps, as inappropriate as that may be, would you believe that Little Mo from Eastenders and Yasmeen from Corrie are just as abusive as their partners because they fought back? I wouldn't say so at all. When you break people down, they'll act out of character, it doesn't make it right but it doesn't make them abusive either.

Is there a link to the ‘audio’ you mentioned in the first sentence?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Ammi]

...I do agree with Dezzy that this isn’t a ‘fluff case’, it is a case of some interest...I haven’t commented on it because I hadn’t known of their ‘stormy’ relationship until recently but also I want to try to hold on to a more neutral mindset to see what the outcome is...It’s interesting though that in cases of assault which are sexual, as opposed to domestic abuse, in particular, rape cases...?..a female is much less thought if as the victim and very much the ‘subject of the trial herself’...Whereas it’s not a ‘natural leaning’ to see the female as anything other than the victim in a situation like this...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I've heard the audio where she basically said that if Johnny went public with what she had done, that no one would believe him. To me, that is abuser speak and compiled with everything else that's come out about her, it's fairly obvious that she is the abuser in this situation. He wanted to leave her, she got crazier and crazier. Abusers don't typically want to give up control which makes Depp less likely to be the abuser in this case since he wanted the relationship to end.

Would you be saying that both sides were at fault if the genders were reversed? If Johnny Depp stepped forward as a victim to begin with but things were revealed that painted Amber Heard as the actual victim, would you be saying both sides were at fault? I'd be blaming Depp just the same as I'm blaming Heard now.

In abusive relationships, one side is always the abuser and the other is reacting to that abuse, It seems very much that Amber Heard preyed on his substance abuse issues and degraded the relationship to the point where he was broken and acting out so that she could act like the victim as she did originally and I believed her. Coercive control, physical abuse, emotional and psychological abuse. From what we've heard, Amber Heard is guilty of all of this. As I've said earlier in the topic, reacting badly to being abused over a period of time doesn't make you as bad as the abuser. There's a whole line of Depp's exes clamouring to his defense although they have no reason to which suggests that his actions in this relationship are an anomaly, a reaction to the abuse he's received at her hands.

To borrow an example from the soaps, as inappropriate as that may be, would you believe that Little Mo from Eastenders and Yasmeen from Corrie are just as abusive as their partners because they fought back? I wouldn't say so at all. When you break people down, they'll act out of character, it doesn't make it right but it doesn't make them abusive either.

I think your painting of him as some worn down victim is a reach. There's probably more artistic licence used in your post than there is in corrie
We'll see what the real verdict is.

[bots]

i know nothing of this story, but i've always thought Depp was an unpleasant arse

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think this sort of flirts with the victim-blaming line to be honest Kizzy, which you can see quite clearly if you flip the script. Women who end up in abusive marriages quite often have a history of the same sort of aggressive, abusive boyfriends. Women who get out of abusive relationships quite often, sadly, end up going into yet another abusive relationship after finding themselves drawn once again to the same sort of person, believing that it'll be different.

There are obviously good, very explainable psychological reasons for that and it would be abhorrent for anyone to take an abused woman and say "Umm you've been with this sort of bloke before so you should have known what would happen".

You can only take things for what they are. Maybe some people are attracted to very "intense" individuals. It doesn't make it their fault if they're abused, lessen the severity, or make it questionable. I really can't see the semantic difference in saying "if you attract chaotic women" and "if you attract aggressive men".

Victim blaming?...

As I've said before the verdict there's the insistence he is 100% the victim here, you might have cemented that in your mind..it doesn't naturally follow everyone else has.

There is no 'script' no relationship is uniformly like another. I appreciate that women can be abusers which seems to be what the last couple of posts are hammering home. As I said we don't as yet know this is the case as there have been accusations from both parties of abuse in this ongoing case.

I really don't like the way you are attempting to put words in my mouth here, I'm not blaming either party until the trial is over.

My point there was if you are chaotic and have a certain lifestyle you meet like minded people, the relationships can be passionate, intense but burn out. That MAY be the case here. I'm just taking part in a debate about it and that is my opinion at the moment based on the findings so far.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think your painting of him as some worn down victim is a reach. There's probably more artistic licence used in your post than there is in corrie
We'll see what the real verdict is.

I think you're letting your biases colour your view of the case, tbh. I'm certainly not making things up like you're suggesting. Do you think that Depp cannot be the victim here because he is a man? 'Cus that's what it sounds like.

By all accounts, Amber Heard is a monster, she berated him and told him he wouldn't be believed if he went public with everything, she cut off part of his finger with a vodka bottle, she seemed to regularly target his vulnerabilities by needling his addiction issues and she has admitted to being violent towards him. There's evidence submitted in the trial of texts that show Heard begging Depp to come home and him refusing to do so since he didn't want to be attacked anymore. Abusers don't like to give up control, and Amber was losing control in that situation.

She's lied through her backteeth, she used the metoo movement for her own benefit, she co-opted someone else's rape story for her own 'benefit' and her version of events have been disputed by most of Johnny Depp's exes who would have no reason to lie about their own experiences.

Abusers don't become abusers suddenly, there's always a history of it and if Amber Heard was telling the truth, then chances are, the people standing in his corner would have seen or experienced abusive behaviour from him in their relationships with him.

From everything we've heard so far, it feels wrong to say both sides were as bad as each other. You'd have to disregard a lot of evidence to make that narrative work.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think you're letting your biases colour your view of the case, tbh. I'm certainly not making things up like you're suggesting. Do you think that Depp cannot be the victim here because he is a man? 'Cus that's what it sounds like.

By all accounts, Amber Heard is a monster, she berated him and told him he wouldn't be believed if he went public with everything, she cut off part of his finger with a vodka bottle, she seemed to regularly target his vulnerabilities by needling his addiction issues and she has admitted to being violent towards him. There's evidence submitted in the trial of texts that show Heard begging Depp to come home and him refusing to do so since he didn't want to be attacked anymore. Abusers don't like to give up control, and Amber was losing control in that situation.

She's lied through her backteeth, she used the metoo movement for her own benefit, she co-opted someone else's rape story for her own 'benefit' and her version of events have been disputed by most of Johnny Depp's exes who would have no reason to lie about their own experiences.

Abusers don't become abusers suddenly, there's always a history of it and if Amber Heard was telling the truth, then chances are, the people standing in his corner would have seen or experienced abusive behaviour from him in their relationships with him.

From everything we've heard so far, it feels wrong to say both sides were as bad as each other. You'd have to disregard a lot of evidence to make that narrative work.

I'm biased because I don't subscribe to your view of Heard.
I've never suggested Depp can't be a victim at all. As far as I see it so far they are both abusers and victims in a toxic relationship.

Hollywood is not known as a place where people are treated fairly as a rule is it? Gagging orders, black listing, settlements, the backlash from fans...who in their right mind would take on an A lister unless they had to?

I still say there are faults on both sides, you would also have to disregard some statements to refute that.

[ChristmasNeeve]

I would be interested in hearing what Kate Moss had to say about it actually, we've heard from Winona Ryder and Vanessa Paradis but Kate has stayed very quiet and there was an allegation made that he pushed her down a flight of stairs during their relationship. The allegation was made by Amber heard though, granted however you would think kate Moss would say something about it? Or maybe she has since?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm biased because I don't subscribe to your view of Heard.
I've never suggested Depp can't be a victim at all. As far as I see it so far they are both abusers and victims in a toxic relationship.

Hollywood is not known as a place where people are treated fairly as a rule is it? Gagging orders, black listing, settlements, the backlash from fans...who in their right mind would take on an A lister unless they had to?

I still say there are faults on both sides, you would also have to disregard some statements to refute that.

You're biased because you seem to be disregarding a lot of evidence that suggests that Amber was the abuser.

Amber Heard benefited a lot from using the metoo movement, lots of endorsements and **** came from that raised profile. The world pretty much believed her completely, I believed her. Johnny Depp was cancelled, he lost his most lucrative consistent role in Captain Jack, his reputation was in tatters and Fantastic Beasts had to weather a storm of bad press because they kept him on board. She told him the world wouldn't believe him and she was right, she knew what she was doing from the off.

If you didn't disregard a lot of what's been said, you'd know that Amber Heard was no shrinking violet, terrified of taking on Depp in public. She knew how to play the game and she played it. Luckily, she's terrible at covering her tracks and it's all since blown up in her face.

At the end of the day, if the genders were reversed and Depp was the abuser, I wouldn't say that Heard was just as abusive for defending herself, people snap when they are abused and if she lashed out at him after so much abuse then I wouldn't make out that they were both abusers because they clearly wouldn't be and it would be hypocritical to think differently if you switched the genders back.

I thought he was guilty as **** when all this came out in 2016, but I simply can't see the evidence that has come to light and think that he is the abuser or that he's just as bad as she is. She was the abuser in this relationship based on everything I've seen.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I would be interested in hearing what Kate Moss had to say about it actually, we've heard from Winona Ryder and Vanessa Paradis but Kate has stayed very quiet and there was an allegation made that he pushed her down a flight of stairs during their relationship. The allegation was made by Amber heard though, granted however you would think kate Moss would say something about it? Or maybe she has since?

If Amber Heard told me that grass was green, I'd go outside to check.

I wonder if she's said something privately, like a private deposition or something. I'd assume, by her silence, that she's probably not interested in getting involved. If she made that accusation, I'd believe her but given this has only come from Amber Heard, i'd need solid evidence to give it the time of day.

[Liam-]

The difference in reaction to a man being accused of domestic abuse and a woman being accused is staggering, but not at all surprising

[Nicky91]

i believe Johnny, not Amber


but more because i personally don't see him being the type of guy who hits women


but probably my bias that i know him better than Amber, in terms of how much movies i've seen comparing both then

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If Amber Heard told me that grass was green, I'd go outside to check.

I wonder if she's said something privately, like a private deposition or something. I'd assume, by her silence, that she's probably not interested in getting involved. If she made that accusation, I'd believe her but given this has only come from Amber Heard, i'd need solid evidence to give it the time of day.

Oh I know, it's just that if someone made that claim about an ex of mine and it wasn't true I'd have something to say about it. But yeah maybe she has said something already, I would just like to know if that particular point is true or not

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Liam-

The difference in reaction to a man being accused of domestic abuse and a woman being accused is staggering, but not at all surprising

tbf they're both being accused of it Liam

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You're biased because you seem to be disregarding a lot of evidence that suggests that Amber was the abuser.

Amber Heard benefited a lot from using the metoo movement, lots of endorsements and **** came from that raised profile. The world pretty much believed her completely, I believed her. Johnny Depp was cancelled, he lost his most lucrative consistent role in Captain Jack, his reputation was in tatters and Fantastic Beasts had to weather a storm of bad press because they kept him on board. She told him the world wouldn't believe him and she was right, she knew what she was doing from the off.

If you didn't disregard a lot of what's been said, you'd know that Amber Heard was no shrinking violet, terrified of taking on Depp in public. She knew how to play the game and she played it. Luckily, she's terrible at covering her tracks and it's all since blown up in her face.

At the end of the day, if the genders were reversed and Depp was the abuser, I wouldn't say that Heard was just as abusive for defending herself, people snap when they are abused and if she lashed out at him after so much abuse then I wouldn't make out that they were both abusers because they clearly wouldn't be and it would be hypocritical to think differently if you switched the genders back.

I thought he was guilty as **** when all this came out in 2016, but I simply can't see the evidence that has come to light and think that he is the abuser or that he's just as bad as she is. She was the abuser in this relationship based on everything I've seen.

I'm not biased because I have acknowledged it...I've stated there is fault on both sides I don't know how much clearer you want me to be on that.

I haven't disregarded anything, and stated very clearly that neither are shrinking violets.
I know how much you hate whataboutism so your analogy is pointless. If anything you are coming across biased as you haven't taken one single witness statement into account in her favour. You may have written her off as an abuser but what reason could they have for speaking out?.. the backlash must be immense.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Victim blaming?...



As I've said before the verdict there's the insistence he is 100% the victim here, you might have cemented that in your mind..it doesn't naturally follow everyone else has.



There is no 'script' no relationship is uniformly like another. I appreciate that women can be abusers which seems to be what the last couple of posts are hammering home. As I said we don't as yet know this is the case as there have been accusations from both parties of abuse in this ongoing case.



I really don't like the way you are attempting to put words in my mouth here, I'm not blaming either party until the trial is over.



My point there was if you are chaotic and have a certain lifestyle you meet like minded people, the relationships can be passionate, intense but burn out. That MAY be the case here. I'm just taking part in a debate about it and that is my opinion at the moment based on the findings so far.

I don't think he's 100% the victim, I think there are certainly indications of a mutually physically violent relationship. But to be specific, you said;

"if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred."

I don't think this is a good path to go down. I don't think it would (or should) be accepted as reasoning for a woman in an abusive relationship or rally any other abusive scenario... It's basically saying "Well, if you get involved with that sort of person, what do you expect? You chose that type of person so how can we believe the fault wasn't on both sides?"

I'm not saying that some fault ISN'T on both sides, I just am unsure about the reasoning that it "must be" because of "attracting chaotic people".

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think he's 100% the victim, I think there are certainly indications of a mutually physically violent relationship. But to be specific, you said;

"if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred."

I don't think this is a good path to go down. I don't think it would (or should) be accepted as reasoning for a woman in an abusive relationship or rally any other abusive scenario... It's basically saying "Well, if you get involved with that sort of person, what do you expect? You chose that type of person so how can we believe the fault wasn't on both sides?"

I'm not saying that some fault ISN'T on both sides, I just am unsure about the reasoning that it "must be" because of "attracting chaotic people".

Yup, it's like blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt.

Obviously it takes two to tangle, but no-one who's heard or read more than a little about this case can put more than an iota blame on Depp.

[Santa's NaughtiNess]

Johnny is not a violent man.
If anything, he was probably defending himself from her.
If someone goes to hit me, I'm going to try to stop them.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think he's 100% the victim, I think there are certainly indications of a mutually physically violent relationship. But to be specific, you said;

"if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred."

I don't think this is a good path to go down. I don't think it would (or should) be accepted as reasoning for a woman in an abusive relationship or rally any other abusive scenario... It's basically saying "Well, if you get involved with that sort of person, what do you expect? You chose that type of person so how can we believe the fault wasn't on both sides?"

I'm not saying that some fault ISN'T on both sides, I just am unsure about the reasoning that it "must be" because of "attracting chaotic people".

Well that's you getting bogged down in the semantics of my post and not listening to what I'm saying. I did clarify that after too. My point was and is they are chaotic characters and as such attracted to one another.

So your suggestions of victim blaming are misplaced.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Talking of vicious mental abuse there's no verdict yet, and here you are judge juror and executioner.
It's like the #be kind movement folowing Caroline Flack's suicide never happened....

obviously these two had a very volatile relationship, in this disgusting media circus there are no innocents both have been exposed. Neither are shrinking violets, Winona Ryder and Kate Moss weren't either.. if you attract chaotic people and have turbulent love affairs then the lines of who did what to whom and why are going to get blurred.
Blaming one party in the relationship is not right or fair the both had very glaring faults.

You don't need to be a shrinking violet to be an abuse victim. I know you're not outright saying you have to be but statements like that really don't help.

The lines are blurred because they're three-dimensional human beings with complex personalities and relationship histories and not the cardboard cutout good and bad guy. It's not really a reason to say neither can be or are victims of abuse. It just doesn't work that way.

When calling out abuse, it isn't excusing the other person's faults. It's calling out abuse.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm biased because I don't subscribe to your view of Heard.
I've never suggested Depp can't be a victim at all. As far as I see it so far they are both abusers and victims in a toxic relationship.

Hollywood is not known as a place where people are treated fairly as a rule is it? Gagging orders, black listing, settlements, the backlash from fans...who in their right mind would take on an A lister unless they had to?

I still say there are faults on both sides, you would also have to disregard some statements to refute that.

She's clearly not a woman in her right mind, and regardless of what anyone thinks of either of them she has told countless lies and painted herself as the victim she never was, so she "took on" the Hollywood A-lister when she didn't need to. If she was a victim of his abuse she wouldn't have needed to lie and invent stories or make threats that no one would believe him if her claims were genuine.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You don't need to be a shrinking violet to be an abuse victim. I know you're not outright saying you have to be but statements like that really don't help.

The lines are blurred because they're three-dimensional human beings with complex personalities and relationship histories and not the cardboard cutout good and bad guy. It's not really a reason to say neither can be or are victims of abuse. It just doesn't work that way.

When calling out abuse, it isn't excusing the other person's faults. It's calling out abuse.



She's clearly not a woman in her right mind, and regardless of what anyone thinks of either of them she has told countless lies and painted herself as the victim she never was, so she "took on" the Hollywood A-lister when she didn't need to. If she was a victim of his abuse she wouldn't have needed to lie and invent stories or make threats that no one would believe him if her claims were genuine.

Not sure what your argument is here... saying they are both at fault means both are victims and abusers...
I can make that statement if I like whether it 'helps' or not.
It's not your call to suggest the debate can't include the opinion that they have both contributed to and been impacted by their own destructive tendencies. As well as being physically and mentally damaged by the actions of the other.

My view takes the fact that people are multifaceted and there isn't one abuser and one victim.. regardless of gender.

The phrase 'took on' was not directed towards amber it was those who provided statements for her in her defence. Whatever you think of her and the validity of her version these people are in a court of law to say she is right to say that... if she is making the whole thing up why would they 'take on ' Depp?