[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Rob!

.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Apart from Gok Wan being in the fashion industry I find him really un-camp (if that's a word)

Graham Norton is very camp but is still taken seriously as a presenter I think

It is now Niamh.

[armand.kay]

Not everyone can be a masc legend like me

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by armand.kay

Not everyone can be a masc legend like me

That may well be Armand, but if so, then you are masc legend with the most beautiful eyes I have ever seen.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I do know exactly where you are coming from with the 'voice' point Paul, because I have met a lot of gay men who DO have a very distinct voice and manner of speaking; pitch, tone, inflexions - the lot.

It's very strange, because it does not seem to matter where such gay me come from either - I have met Geordies, Scousers, Tykes and Brummies, even Northern Irish Gay men who all had the same type of voices and way of speaking etc.

It is not 'effeminate' in any 'Larry Grayson'/ Alan Carr way, but yet there is a 'quality' there.

Anyway, I know what you mean.

Yeah exactly.Like take the guy in the vid for instance.He's been hiding his sexuality from his dad however he still has that quality so to me it would seem that it's just his voice and he's not changing it in any way.He wouldn't put on a gayer voice while trying to hide it and his dad said that he has suspected for a while.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yeah exactly.Like take the guy in the vid for instance.He's been hiding his sexuality from his dad however he still has that quality so to me it would seem that it's just his voice and he's not changing it in any way.He wouldn't put on a gayer voice while trying to hide it and his dad said that he has suspected for a while.

Yeah Paul - I would have suspected it too if I'd been his dad.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This is your most humorous post yet Maru - I literally nearly peed myself at the emboldened bits.

Lots of truth there though as usual.

Thanks. I always try to have a good sense of humor. So much irony all around us. It keeps things interesting...

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yeah exactly.Like take the guy in the vid for instance.He's been hiding his sexuality from his dad however he still has that quality so to me it would seem that it's just his voice and he's not changing it in any way.He wouldn't put on a gayer voice while trying to hide it and his dad said that he has suspected for a while.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yeah Paul - I would have suspected it too if I'd been his dad.

I would've had that conversation with my child (still childless atm) before that point if I suspected. Just because I don't want to further stigmatize it by walking around it like it is a bigger deal than it really is... my grandmother actually asked me (Southern Baptist of all people--very severe Christianity) once and I think she told me it would be fine, that she could tell me... funny enough, she's a democrat but is also a southern Baptist... still, her step-dad was a Baptist preacher and he did everything with other women and to them that a preacher should never do (he was very abusive). So I guess she learned early on the colors of hypocrisy so to speak... and so it affected her viewpoint.

Still, I've heard people who talk like this. I have some in my circle in IT who speak like this and again, the more intellectual crowd... they don't really subscribe to gender roles as much as other crowds I guess. With my husband's work (law enforcement), there's a lot of macho personalities for sure... but we have some teddy bears too. (And some alcoholics)

Anyway, for this video, his behaviors to me are only clues. Maybe the way he is speaking... like how he is moving his hands, his shoulders are relaxed and he is relating to his father with a lot of focus on openly sharing his emotional viewpoints. Hard to put words to it. It reminds me of when people use hand gestures to relate to each other... those in LGBT have similar hand gestures to communicate meanings and empathy that connects to others in that group. It could also be that is the way he is always presented him, as someone more effeminate... still I don't see that as necessarily meaning someone is homosexual. Again I have a friend who acts like this and it is very similar... so not a smoking gun imho.

Actually, I think that is so common with the younger generations.. straight or gay... but if anyone is hanging around others with the same status, they just pick up subconsciously over time the way his circle interacts and perhaps he picked up those behaviors there...but I feel like his voice and hand gestures, his way of speech... I don't really see it as obvious. I see it as circumstantial.

For example, when I was in my studio design program... I started hanging around snobby art nerds... we started to use the same vocabulary, ways of explaining our ideas, etc... because of things like critique being not optional, but mandatory, having to hang around nudists (read: art models), having to hang up our work for all to see and yet handle a tongue lashing with class.... a lot of barriers had to broken and to make it easier and to show support, we spoke and acted a certain way to engender respect for others of our trade and this is how we learned and modeled our behavior as we got further into the program.

With the LGBT movement, they have to deal with these barriers as well.. so I notice people in those groups, they pick up behaviors that are encouraging others to express--not suppress... and then of course, you have 'display' behaviors to show interest if it's a club setting (yay clubs)... these are behaviors they herald because it prominently advertises their values of acceptance and open-ness... so this is what they are about. People, whether they have cognitive dissonance about this or not, will often display these values in some manner... even from birth, because they not only live within the context of their identity, but a context of society.

Just like art snobs hang around Starbucks with sketchbooks and laptops all the time... to show that our intellectual mind and our creativity is unchained from the mundane. Most of us have been creative all our lives. So I don't know his age, but in my youth, the walls of stigmatism were already crashing down due to years of movement... so it's possible he had already fully acknowledged (i.e. not suppressed really) his identity, if only subconsciously, and moved towards that social collective in that manner.

Generally, and this could be any situation or circumstance, but it is often psychological to 'act out' if you feel overly suppressed by those around you... it's a way to cope with living in this cardboard box called life. You know with little effort you can escape that box... but you are told repeatedly, you will pay some high price if you do. So you stay in, but in the meantime, you are really frustrated with it... so you may act out in smaller ways to cope. My husband's brother had similar issues with it and between the alcohol and manic behavior... this was how he coped. But he was a very successful businessmen otherwise... at least until the alcohol took over his life and ruined that. Edit: Still he didn't start to try to correct that until he came out... then his life kinda hit the bottom, but he did finally start picking up the pieces and is getting his life together again...

Sexuality is so private for most people, so I don't think that most people subconsciously go out of their way to advertise their affections one way or another... but I guess if you had seen the whole episode, it would've looked different to you. But just based on this clip, I don't see it being incredibly obvious... I feel like however, if he had a support network of similar folk, as it seems he does... this is just the way that he learned to communicate empathy in that group. Maybe the way he speaks--yes--could be the way he spoke his entire life, outside of the gestures... but I know a lot of people who speak very similarly and move their shoulders in that manner and are not homosexual.

Anyway I could've written that a lot better with more time and energy to introduce better examples... I hope that it makes sense anyway. I just think too many reasons to explain away the behaviors of what most people consider homosexual... but I did offer non-genetic reasons as to why those groups may interact in similar ways/share similar mannerisms. Comes down to general sociology I guess.

Edit: Added some small, but important, details...

[Northern Monkey]

So maybe it is a mixture of nature and nurture.Many people of both sexualities possibly display these mannerisms etc but many gay people will either show them more or exaggerate them more?
I think that is the gist of the answers.

Edit to add:Great replies in here on what is a very complicated subject

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I know gay guys who have perfectly sculptured bodies, are hard-as-nails boxers, karate experts, and similar. They walk, talk and act just normal, but they are gay and proud of it.

I also know a few 'Screaming Queens' too So there is no such thing as a 'typical Gay'.

...ok

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Maru

Thanks. I always try to have a good sense of humor. So much irony all around us. It keeps things interesting...





I would've had that conversation with my child (still childless atm) before that point if I suspected. Just because I don't want to further stigmatize it by walking around it like it is a bigger deal than it really is... my grandmother actually asked me (Southern Baptist of all people--very severe Christianity) once and I think she told me it would be fine, that she could tell me... funny enough, she's a democrat but is also a southern Baptist... still, her step-dad was a Baptist preacher and he did everything with other women and to them that a preacher should never do (he was very abusive). So I guess she learned early on the colors of hypocrisy so to speak... and so it affected her viewpoint.

Still, I've heard people who talk like this. I have some in my circle in IT who speak like this and again, the more intellectual crowd... they don't really subscribe to gender roles as much as other crowds I guess. With my husband's work (law enforcement), there's a lot of macho personalities for sure... but we have some teddy bears too. (And some alcoholics)

Anyway, for this video, his behaviors to me are only clues. Maybe the way he is speaking... like how he is moving his hands, his shoulders are relaxed and he is relating to his father with a lot of focus on openly sharing his emotional viewpoints. Hard to put words to it. It reminds me of when people use hand gestures to relate to each other... those in LGBT have similar hand gestures to communicate meanings and empathy that connects to others in that group. It could also be that is the way he is always presented him, as someone more effeminate... still I don't see that as necessarily meaning someone is homosexual. Again I have a friend who acts like this and it is very similar... so not a smoking gun imho.

Actually, I think that is so common with the younger generations.. straight or gay... but if anyone is hanging around others with the same status, they just pick up subconsciously over time the way his circle interacts and perhaps he picked up those behaviors there...but I feel like his voice and hand gestures, his way of speech... I don't really see it as obvious. I see it as circumstantial.

For example, when I was in my studio design program... I started hanging around snobby art nerds... we started to use the same vocabulary, ways of explaining our ideas, etc... because of things like critique being not optional, but mandatory, having to hang around nudists (read: art models), having to hang up our work for all to see and yet handle a tongue lashing with class.... a lot of barriers had to broken and to make it easier and to show support, we spoke and acted a certain way to engender respect for others of our trade and this is how we learned and modeled our behavior as we got further into the program.

With the LGBT movement, they have to deal with these barriers as well.. so I notice people in those groups, they pick up behaviors that are encouraging others to express--not suppress... and then of course, you have 'display' behaviors to show interest if it's a club setting (yay clubs)... these are behaviors they herald because it prominently advertises their values of acceptance and open-ness... so this is what they are about. People, whether they have cognitive dissonance about this or not, will often display these values in some manner... even from birth, because they not only live within the context of their identity, but a context of society.

Just like art snobs hang around Starbucks with sketchbooks and laptops all the time... to show that our intellectual mind and our creativity is unchained from the mundane. Most of us have been creative all our lives. So I don't know his age, but in my youth, the walls of stigmatism were already crashing down due to years of movement... so it's possible he had already fully acknowledged (i.e. not suppressed really) his identity, if only subconsciously, and moved towards that social collective in that manner.

Generally, and this could be any situation or circumstance, but it is often psychological to 'act out' if you feel overly suppressed by those around you... it's a way to cope with living in this cardboard box called life. You know with little effort you can escape that box... but you are told repeatedly, you will pay some high price if you do. So you stay in, but in the meantime, you are really frustrated with it... so you may act out in smaller ways to cope. My husband's brother had similar issues with it and between the alcohol and manic behavior... this was how he coped. But he was a very successful businessmen otherwise... at least until the alcohol took over his life and ruined that. Edit: Still he didn't start to try to correct that until he came out... then his life kinda hit the bottom, but he did finally start picking up the pieces and is getting his life together again...

Sexuality is so private for most people, so I don't think that most people subconsciously go out of their way to advertise their affections one way or another... but I guess if you had seen the whole episode, it would've looked different to you. But just based on this clip, I don't see it being incredibly obvious... I feel like however, if he had a support network of similar folk, as it seems he does... this is just the way that he learned to communicate empathy in that group. Maybe the way he speaks--yes--could be the way he spoke his entire life, outside of the gestures... but I know a lot of people who speak very similarly and move their shoulders in that manner and are not homosexual.

Anyway I could've written that a lot better with more time and energy to introduce better examples... I hope that it makes sense anyway. I just think too many reasons to explain away the behaviors of what most people consider homosexual... but I did offer non-genetic reasons as to why those groups may interact in similar ways/share similar mannerisms. Comes down to general sociology I guess.

Edit: Added some small, but important, details...

me

[Ammi]

...awwww on the whole I found that vid heart-breaking, how hard it was for him to come out to his parents and knowing their religious views..(I watched the other one with him coming out to his mum as well..)...I think both parents did well considering the depth of their faith and I totally agree with what his dad said 'I didn't want to go where I wasn't invited' because it was always on his son's terms and when his son was ready etc...his sexuality/his decision...but his dad saying it would be hard to accept a partner, eeeeek the pressure of that on his son and another thing that's going to be such a big thing so he hasn't really 'got there' yet and he still has to go through..mum and dad, I've met someone, can we welcome him into our home as a sexual partner and the person I love..../heart-breaking poor thing...it's all been such an obvious struggle for him as well in the beliefs that he's been brought up with and there must have been much self hate as well I would have thought and for his own self-acceptance and then he's had his friends/family's acceptance to try to overcome as well...so much for a young person who just happens to be a homosexual but the complications/agony of that one small basic thing of sexuality that heterosexual people take for granted and never have to spend any agonising time over in a coming out/just don't have to give any thought to...but equally his dad having his own agony in feeling he knew and waiting for his son to tell him...things like 'recovered homosexual' made me cringe so much but his dad seems like such a good guy and it's all equally hard for him to find the right words, I just wanted him to hug his son, to hold onto him tightly but I think that probably happened off video, it would be nice to think so...and his mum saying that she thought he was going to tell her that he'd met a special lady and feeling that she knew as well but that she's hoped he'd 'got through it' and that she'd been praying for him..no matter how great they are as parents, he's always going to feel that he's let them down just by being who he is, nothing more and that's such a difficult thing for anyone with their parents..that being them is somehow failing the people that we most would never want to fail in any way...

...anyway, no I wouldn't have said that I would have known he was homosexual by anything about him (other than he said he was gay obviously which is a big clue..)...I wouldn't have said with homosexual friends I have either, that I would have known by some sort of 'physical give-away' type thing...straight people can be camp, gay people can be camp and also the opposite of the un-camp thing that Niamh said..those are just a mannerism thing that we can all adopt at certain times and in certain things, just like an 'Essex girl' OMGGGGGGGGGGGGODZZZZZZZZZZ type thing, I think..but don't reflect sexuality but may do for some people..may be an over-exaggerated form of wanting their sexuality to be known and a feeling as though to themselves, it's a huge part of what defines them..?...so adopting a stereotype that will leave no doubt..?...like Shaun I think it was that said, one of my homosexual friends hates the gay/camp stereotype that is often in reality shows such as BB...(I don't think I've ever known him to support the gay on BB, he just switches off from the existence of in a cringe..)../homophobe that he is...

[joeysteele]

I never know who is or not gay, anyway, I neither look for possibilities and anyway couldn't care whether anyone was or was not gay.

I have never seen a one set of behaviour fits all either.
That was a hard video to watch but glad it turned out okay, very sadly because of others expectations and observances, it doesn't always work out that well at times too.

People are people, friends are friends, family are family,what sexual preferences they may prefer, is none of my business unless they choose themselves to reveal same.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Firewire

me

And Maru just saved you a whole lot of typing