[Northern Monkey]

So i was just watching this video of this gay guy coming out to his Conservative Christian Dad.

Youtube video

You could tell how hard it was for the lad and his dad actually took it really well.His dad said he'd 'had his suspicions' and I lol'd at that because it's blatantly obvious that he's gay.He's not acting particularly camp or extrovert but he has all the mannerisms that you expect and the not so deep voice.
But then that got me thinking.Like at a guess 95% of the time you can tell when someone is gay.Not always but i'm pretty confident that i can usually always tell.Infact I don't think i've ever been wrong if i'm being honest.

So what is it that makes it so obvious most of the time?
I mean just because someone is attracted to the same sex shouldn't necessarily be coupled with a stereotype.But it is and it's not just a made up stereotype.It's actually there.
Now I don't believe all gays put it on.I know some flaunt it more but i think underneath that these traits would still be there.Just not so overtly.
Is it a gene that gives these traits along with the same sex attraction?
Or is it maybe less testosterone and more estrogen?
Or something else?
Anyone studied this stuff?

[Saturn]

I am not sure why we tolerate this coming out thing as if its a bad thing or a not normal thing?

[UserSince2005]

I like that gays usually are so gay, becuase it makes me special, how masc i am. no one can tell

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Saturn

I am not sure why we tolerate this coming out thing as if its a bad thing or a not normal thing?

Well i think in Conservative Christian America it's still viewed as 'not normal' to many very devout Christians so 'coming out' would be a much bigger issue there.

[_Tom_]

It's not always so obvious. People are usually surprised when they find out when I'm gay.

That is, unless I'm drinking.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by _Tom_

It's not always so obvious. People are usually surprised when they find out when I'm gay.

That is, unless I'm drinking.

I did mention that it's not the case all the time.Just from what i've seen personally and on TV etc.

[kirklancaster]

I know gay guys who have perfectly sculptured bodies, are hard-as-nails boxers, karate experts, and similar. They walk, talk and act just normal, but they are gay and proud of it.

I also know a few 'Screaming Queens' too So there is no such thing as a 'typical Gay'.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I know gay guys who have perfectly sculptured bodies, are hard-as-nails boxers, karate experts, and similar. They walk, talk and act just normal, but they are gay and proud of it.

I also know a few 'Screaming Queens' too So there is no such thing as a 'typical Gay'.

Yeah,I'm only speaking from my Possibly limited exposure.Although i did used to go in gay clubs quite abit cos they were open later and had the best tunes back when i was out every week so it's not like i've been sheltered.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yeah,I'm only speaking from my Possibly limited exposure.Although i did used to go in gay clubs quite abit cos they were open later and had the best tunes back when i was out every week so it's not like i've been sheltered.

True back in my day too Paul. Pure Hedonism were those Gay Clubs.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

So i was just watching this video of this gay guy coming out to his Conservative Christian Dad.

You could tell how hard it was for the lad and his dad actually took it really well.His dad said he'd 'had his suspicions' and I lol'd at that because it's blatantly obvious that he's gay.He's not acting particularly camp or extrovert but he has all the mannerisms that you expect and the not so deep voice.
But then that got me thinking.Like at a guess 95% of the time you can tell when someone is gay.Not always but i'm pretty confident that i can usually always tell.Infact I don't think i've ever been wrong if i'm being honest.

So what is it that makes it so obvious most of the time?
I mean just because someone is attracted to the same sex shouldn't necessarily be coupled with a stereotype.But it is and it's not just a made up stereotype.It's actually there.
Now I don't believe all gays put it on.I know some flaunt it more but i think underneath that these traits would still be there.Just not so overtly.
Is it a gene that gives these traits along with the same sex attraction?
Or is it maybe less testosterone and more estrogen?
Or something else?
Anyone studied this stuff?

The fact that there are a lot of guys where you wouldn't know or think that they're gay makes the logic behind the 95% kind of faulty, where do they factor in? How can they be qualified in order to put them in the other 5% if you don't know that they are gay? You may hardly ever be wrong when it's something that crosses your mind about someone, but what about all the men you see and meet who are gay and it never even crosses your mind they might be? Basically what you're saying is why are most camp men gay, right? And I'd say that it has less to do with specific personalities of gay people, and more to do with straight guys generally repressing their camp sides. There's a stigma still to being camp so it makes more sense that that would be the case, because I think where there's a stigma, it's generally the people who are more likely to be judged incorrectly that are going to have a wariness of it/be affected by it (conscious or subconscious)... and there's less reason a gay man would feel that stigma than a straight man (since the stigma is appearing gay). Obviously all of that's generalisations too and that's why there's no 100% rule that covers everyone, I mean you see it a lot in the gay community too, the 'straight acting' gay which is just someone who tries not to act camp/takes pride in not being 'spotted' etc. It's all stupid really but it all plays into it. I also think the process of 'coming out', if it's a positive experience, it makes you care less what people think of you and can give you more self confidence, all of which could also result in caring less about appearing camp, and obviously straight people don't get to experience that.
Campness is just a personality trait at the end of the day, nothing more, and it's not necessarily a case of just whether or not you have the trait, but also what life experiences you've had/haven't had that would affect whether or not you're confident in expressing it.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The fact that there are a lot of guys where you wouldn't know or think that they're gay makes the logic behind the 95% kind of faulty, where do they factor in? How can they be qualified in order to put them in the other 5% if you don't know that they are gay? You may hardly ever be wrong when it's something that crosses your mind about someone, but what about all the men you see and meet who are gay and it never even crosses your mind they might be? Basically what you're saying is why are most camp men gay, right? And I'd say that it has less to do with specific personalities of gay people, and more to do with straight guys generally repressing their camp sides. There's a stigma still to being camp so it makes more sense that that would be the case, because I think where there's a stigma, it's generally the people who are more likely to be judged incorrectly that are going to have a wariness of it/be affected by it (conscious or subconscious)... and there's less reason a gay man would feel that stigma than a straight man (since the stigma is appearing gay). Obviously all of that's generalisations too and that's why there's no 100% rule that covers everyone, I mean you see it a lot in the gay community too, the 'straight acting' gay which is just someone who tries not to act camp/takes pride in not being 'spotted' etc. It's all stupid really but it all plays into it. I also think the process of 'coming out', if it's a positive experience, it makes you care less what people think of you and can give you more self confidence, all of which could also result in caring less about appearing camp, and obviously straight people don't get to experience that.
Campness is just a personality trait at the end of the day, nothing more, and it's not necessarily a case of just whether or not you have the trait, but also what life experiences you've had/haven't had that would affect whether or not you're confident in expressing it.

Good answer

But what about the voice thing?Could that be genetic maybe?Why do you generally(not always) see less gay men with a deep voice and more straight men with a deeper voice?That's not really something you can put on your whole life?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Good answer

But what about the voice thing?Could that be genetic maybe?Why do you generally(not always) see less gay men with a deep voice and more straight men with a deeper voice?That's not really something you can put on your whole life?

I don't think there is 'a voice thing' In my experience I've seen no trend to that at all. There is on TV, but that's just because of TV character tropes.
For arguments sake though your voice can be effected (to an extent) by your mindset. For example transexuals sometimes 'train' their voices when they transition, my friend who is female to male trans consciously trained his voice and now doesn't even think about it. So his voice is different, and deeper, but it's not something he's "putting on". So I suppose it could be possible that on a much more subconcious level, straight men or gay men might 'train' their voices to fit in better with their generic stereotypes? I think if that was the case though it would be a very small minority and not something that is 'generally' the case, like I say, I don't see "less gay men with a deep voice" compared to straight men at all. Again, there could be a lot of gay men with deep voices where you're not registering they're gay to include in all this, because you don't know they're gay.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I did mention that it's not the case all the time.Just from what i've seen personally and on TV etc.

It's been a personal gripe of mine for a while that any time a gay person has been given a job on television it's been largely due to their exaggerated personalities and a flippant job in either fashion, celebrity culture or dancing.

But then, on the other hand, one could argue that me finding fault with effeminate presenters and 'stereotypes' could be seen as part of the problem: some masculine-acting gay men in particular seem fervent in trying to 'normalise' themselves and appear more manly than most straight guys bother to be. Which asks the question: what is wrong with femininity? Everyone's encountered the odd gay guy who's extremely over-the-top and irritating (most of them are cast on Big Brother) but is having a camp voice and a less conventional sense of men's fashion all that objectionable?

It's a bit of a catch-22. Some LGBT want more representation in the media, but then get a bit annoyed if they're not exactly like them. But I do still think there's a casual kind of "haha look at this queen" role that's filled in most mainstream representations of 'a gay', and you have to wonder if that's pandering to the narrow-minded. One very much doubts that Rylan, Gok Wan (although he's not too extreme), Louie Spence, Bruno Tonioli, Alan Carr, Louis Walsh and John Barrowman are taken all that seriously. I don't know if I can name many TV personalities that are queer but not a joke figure. Ellen DeGeneres, Sandi Toksvig, Sue Perkins and Stephen Fry are all that spring to mind. So basically the women

The issue of visibility in the media very much hinges on how "visible" it is, I guess.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well i think in Conservative Christian America it's still viewed as 'not normal' to many very devout Christians so 'coming out' would be a much bigger issue there.

Aside from the Christian community having a stance on it, American culture was fairly sheltered before LGBT culture coming out () changed that...

We can't even see penises on TV and much of culture waters those things down. I remember the first time I opened up a live UK TV stream they were cutting into a cow or something doing a live birth... I'm like this is clearly NOT America. *BB comes on** Ooh look a penis

A commercial like this would be considered too relaxed (taboo) for our TV... though we are slowly relaxing... some...

Youtube video

So even if someone is not Christian, they may still be conditioned by the same Christian ideals... if that makes sense.

[Maru]

Oh, and girls kissing each other and boys kissing each other on TV would've been an HBO only thing for a long time...

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

the not so deep voice.

[UserSince2005]

Originally Posted by Shaun

some masculine-acting gay men in particular seem fervent in trying to 'normalise' themselves and appear more manly than most straight guys bother to be. Which asks the question: what is wrong with femininity?

As a masculine gay man, I am proud not to be feminine. I am proud of my dominance, strength, aggressiveness, competitive nature and ability to make straight men turn into butty boys.

[Maru]

Back on OT, I don't know how I tell someone is gay... I just see clues sometimes and mull it over in my head... not really their voice or demeanor as much as how they carry themselves around others and treats other of the opposite sex. Though I make it a point not to go prying around in other people's business... I hate when people get into my own so I wouldn't want to get into theirs uninvited. Have enough of my own drama... If I see a bunch of clues, I don't really care to know who is sleeping with who really, so I guess I wouldn't really be a good judge...

I also know too many people who fit the bill and are obviously straight. Some intellectuals I hang around who are fairly feminine (some are "metro sexual") but they are 100% straight... like listen to N'Sync and Backstreet Boys while weeping over the phone about a long lost love straight

I really hate that we hold men to that awkward stereotype too... like they can't show emotion or have a high voice, a different way of dressing etc... they have to 'look' and 'act' like men... it's sexist.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Good answer

But what about the voice thing?Could that be genetic maybe?Why do you generally(not always) see less gay men with a deep voice and more straight men with a deeper voice?That's not really something you can put on your whole life?

I do know exactly where you are coming from with the 'voice' point Paul, because I have met a lot of gay men who DO have a very distinct voice and manner of speaking; pitch, tone, inflexions - the lot.

It's very strange, because it does not seem to matter where such gay me come from either - I have met Geordies, Scousers, Tykes and Brummies, even Northern Irish Gay men who all had the same type of voices and way of speaking etc.

It is not 'effeminate' in any 'Larry Grayson'/ Alan Carr way, but yet there is a 'quality' there.

Anyway, I know what you mean.

[Firewire]

I'm not camp

[Withano]

You only tally the times you correctly identidy someone as gay.. You wouldnt really admit youre ever wrong if you think hey are but they dont say so because youd sooner presume they just havent came out yet, and youd be none the wiser if a guy you thought was straight was actually gay.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

It's been a personal gripe of mine for a while that any time a gay person has been given a job on television it's been largely due to their exaggerated personalities and a flippant job in either fashion, celebrity culture or dancing.

But then, on the other hand, one could argue that me finding fault with effeminate presenters and 'stereotypes' could be seen as part of the problem: some masculine-acting gay men in particular seem fervent in trying to 'normalise' themselves and appear more manly than most straight guys bother to be. Which asks the question: what is wrong with femininity? Everyone's encountered the odd gay guy who's extremely over-the-top and irritating (most of them are cast on Big Brother) but is having a camp voice and a less conventional sense of men's fashion all that objectionable?

It's a bit of a catch-22. Some LGBT want more representation in the media, but then get a bit annoyed if they're not exactly like them. But I do still think there's a casual kind of "haha look at this queen" role that's filled in most mainstream representations of 'a gay', and you have to wonder if that's pandering to the narrow-minded. One very much doubts that Rylan, Gok Wan (although he's not too extreme), Louie Spence, Bruno Tonioli, Alan Carr, Louis Walsh and John Barrowman are taken all that seriously. I don't know if I can name many TV personalities that are queer but not a joke figure. Ellen DeGeneres, Sandi Toksvig, Sue Perkins and Stephen Fry are all that spring to mind. So basically the women

The issue of visibility in the media very much hinges on how "visible" it is, I guess.

Apart from Gok Wan being in the fashion industry I find him really un-camp (if that's a word)

Graham Norton is very camp but is still taken seriously as a presenter I think

[Maru]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I do know exactly where you are coming from with the 'voice' point Paul, because I have met a lot of gay men who DO have a very distinct voice and manner of speaking; pitch, tone, inflexions - the lot.

It's very strange, because it does not seem to matter where such gay me come from either - I have met Geordies, Scousers, Tykes and Brummies, even Northern Irish Gay men who all had the same type of voices and way of speaking etc.

It is not 'effeminate' in any 'Larry Grayson'/ Alan Carr way, but yet there is a 'quality' there.

Anyway, I know what you mean.

Yeah I think at best it's a 'clue' to consider... there's no exact science to it.

My husband's brother's voice 'changed' after coming out... so I think to some degree, it's to fit into the stereotype/box or play the role or whatever... I've heard some gay men say that that annoys them.

I'm white and yet I grew up around hispanics so I have a Houston accent with a bit of latina mixed in at times... so I've been told. But then there are hispanics who are just as white as me (maybe moreso)... that have more of a Spanish heritage, whereas many Mexicans have more of the native American blood mixed in so they look browner... you really can't judge a book by it's cover.

I was told I was a lesbian often growing up because I had the knowledge that I have, for wearing athletic clothes, being a tom boy, fixing computers, etc... I didn't pay it any mind. I laugh my way to the bank because those things that made me 'different' are major assets to standing out in a highly competitive field. Fitting in is a serious handicap in life so I've learned through life experience. So... jokes on them, because I didn't give into stereotypes... now the roles have reversed... it's cool to be you, to buck the trend so to speak, cool to be nerdy, say **** you to gender stereotypes... etc

Oh and I can't tell if a woman is a lesbian or not... I usually find out through a conversation. Anywhere from "why are guys so dumb?" type conversations ...or "Have you tried running this on your computer? It's pretty cool..." or... "By the way, you're hot!"... etc

One of my friends in HS that didn't really judge me was a friend who came out to me as a 'lesbian'... he was confused then, but later found out he was transgender. I figured he was just like any other person before then... just really sporty. I knew a girl then too that played basketball like no tomorrow... Anyway, she was treated similar to myself for being sporty. She had a child out of wedlock some years back, but she is so happy now and her family really supports her. Her father was a substitute teacher and we used to talk nerd crap. I pretty much talk to anyone who will listen...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

Yeah I think at best it's a 'clue' to consider... there's no exact science to it.

My husband's brother's voice 'changed' after coming out... so I think to some degree, it's to fit into the stereotype/box or play the role or whatever... I've heard some gay men say that that annoys them.

I'm white and yet I grew up around hispanics so I have a Houston accent with a bit of latina mixed in at times... so I've been told. But then there are hispanics who are just as white as me (maybe moreso)... that have more of a Spanish heritage, whereas many Mexicans have more of the native American blood mixed in so they look browner... you really can't judge a book by it's cover.

I was told I was a lesbian often growing up because I had the knowledge that I have, for wearing athletic clothes, being a tom boy, fixing computers, etc... I didn't pay it any mind. I laugh my way to the bank because those things that made me 'different' are major assets to standing out in a highly competitive field. Fitting in a serious handicap in life so I've learned through life experience. So... jokes on them, because I didn't give into stereotypes... now the roles have reversed... it's cool to be you, to buck the trend so to speak, cool to be nerdy, say **** you to gender stereotypes... etc

Oh and I can't tell if a woman is a lesbian or not... I usually find out through a conversation. Anywhere from "why are guys so dumb?" type conversations ...or "Have you tried running this on your computer? It's pretty cool..." or... "By the way, you're hot!"... etc

One of my friends in HS that didn't really judge me was a friend who came out to me as a 'lesbian'... he was confused then, but later found out he was transgender. I figured he was just like any other person before then... just really sporty. I knew a girl then too that played basketball like no tomorrow... Anyway, she was treated similar to myself for being sporty. She had a child out of wedlock some years back, but she is so happy now and her family really supports her. Her father was a substitute teacher and we used to talk nerd crap. I pretty much talk to anyone who will listen...

This is your most humorous post yet Maru - I literally nearly peed myself at the emboldened bits.

Lots of truth there though as usual.

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by Firewire

I'm not camp

Originally Posted by Marsh.

.