[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The entire video is excellent (and helps contextualise the excerpts), though probably a bit much to expect people to sit through. I used to be of the school of thought that “all violence is bad and made equal” until I watched this and did some follow up reading

I've added it to my watch later for the next time I need some background noise, so I'll give the whole thing a watch at some point.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If there's no excuses why are you making excuses?...
My dad was born in 1926, he would never have dreamed of speaking that way about anyone.

That said I don't think they were right to hit him at all either. Yes they would have been very angry and frustrated but as said having filmed the whole thing it was certain there was going to be some justice. This might not be as severe now due to their retaliation.

...yeah that’s the thing, Kizzy...age is not a reason, it’s an excuse...Race prejudice was as unacceptable back in the day as it is now...and for those who did and still do have that mindset.../...it shows a lack of growth in a lifetime given...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

You must be watching something completely different, the old bigot swung and the bloke swung back.

He swung at them as they were leaving the bus, various people started to intervene and get between them, the guy who swings back is near the camera, he turns and approaches Old Mr Racist (I suppose trying to guess why would be speculation) and the old man then hit out at his approach and then backs away, at which point he moves in and throws several punches. He doesn't need to to stop a continuing attack. It isn't self defense. It's retaliation. I've just rewatched it 4 or 5 times. I get why he's angry, I get why he's frustrated, I get the impulse to lash out, I'm not even judging him for it. BUT I don't think he should have lost control and I'm never going to agree that it was the right thing to do. If I had to guess I think he might regret it, because losing control/composure feels like ****, though obviously I can't speak for him.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The entire video is excellent (and helps contextualise the excerpts), though probably a bit much to expect people to sit through. I used to be of the school of thought that “all violence is bad and made equal” until I watched this and did some follow up reading

I watched both of the time stamps you gave and a good chunk of the rest. I do think the video is interesting and thought provoking though I'm not sure it's entirely relevant? It's talking about political violence. Hand on heart, do you think the incident in the OP video is an example of the type of political violence being discussed in that video?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The development of abstract reasoning happens in early adolescence (12+ Kizzy, at no point have I tried to say that a 25 year old isn't capable of abstract reasoning ffs . Talk about conflation.

Also are you using "frustration" as advocacy for personal physical violence?

I'm not talking about abstract reasoning, I'm sure you've skimmed psychnet or such Web pages for insight. However I did suggest that personal experience is what determine future responses. We are not cookie cutter people unfortunately.

No I'm not using frustration to advocate violence, if you read my post again I use frustration to describe the feelings of the prejudiced minority and suggest that may be the catalyst for a difference in opinion from your own very privilege driven logic.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm not talking about abstract reasoning, I'm sure you've skimmed psychnet or such Web pages for insight.

If anyone was looking for an example of ad hominem

No I'm not using frustration to advocate violence, if you read my post again I use frustration to describe the feelings of the prejudiced minority and suggest that may be the catalyst for a difference in opinion from your own very privilege driven logic.

Ahh so you're using frustration as a justification for an onlooker advocating violence, rather than frustration of those involved being used as a reason for advocating violence.

I can see the difference but I still don't agree with you. Honestly this thread is an eye opener although I'm not sure why at this point. "How DARE you say that advocating retaliatory violence isn't a good idea!!". It could only be 2020.

[Moniqua]

maybe next time he should keep his fat mouth shut?

[Babayaro.]

Video isn't the best as it's very shaky and quite short, but the old man is clearly a horrible person who got what he deserved, really.

It was hardly a beating up either, like the article suggests, so I think the two men were quite restrained in their reactions.

[Ammi]

...this is another article ...(...not condoning violence obviously..)...the older guy called people the ‘N’ word as well....


‘My cousin was leaning on the hand bars and the man randomly pushed his elbow off. So he did the normal thing and turned around confused and asked, “Why did you push my arm off?”

‘The man then replied by shouting, “Don’t talk to me you monkey,” which is when my friend turned around and said, “What did you say?” ‘We were all so shocked and then the man proceeded by shouting, “Stop talking to me you monkeys, ******* off,” repeatedly. She added another passenger on the bus reported the elderly man to the bus driver who called the police. The camerawoman said that before the physical altercation, ‘the bus driver called the police on the white man, but they clearly didn’t get there in time’. ‘The man then began calling us n****** and saying we shouldn’t be on the bus. He then kept coming forward as if he was going to push us,’ she added.

‘But then as you can see in the video ended up actually swinging for my friends, which is why they hit him. It was simply self defence.’ She said the other bus passengers advised the group leave the scene before the police arrived. ‘Everybody on the bus suggested us leaving. They all already know how the system is. We would have been arrested,’ she explained. In a lengthy post accompanying the clip, the Instagram user wrote: ‘Imagine being on the bus minding your business when a man begins calling you a monkey and a n***** and shouting at you to get off the bus. Keep in mind he tried swinging first.’


In a caption on one of her Instagram clips, she claimed the pensioner ‘got what he deserved’. A spokesperson from the Metropolitan Police told Metro.co.uk: ‘Police were alerted shortly before 6.40pm on Tuesday, September 8, to reports of a racially aggravated assault on a bus on Lawrence Street, NW7. ‘It was alleged that a man made racist remarks towards another passenger while on board the 251 bus towards Arnos Grove. ‘Following this, the man who reportedly made the remarks was then assaulted.Officers attended and found a 70-year-old man with head injuries. ‘London Ambulance Service also attended and the man was taken to hospital.


...full article..


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/09/09/racis...2/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

[Oliver_W]

Name-calling doesn't warrant violence, even if it does expose him as a twat.

[Liam-]

He wasn’t punched because of the names, he was punched because he was violent first

[Ammi]

...being called ‘a monkey’ or a ‘N’ isn’t name calling, it’s racial abuse ...and it’s also been reported as him becoming physical first as well.../..the video isn’t clear enough, though... so we’ll see...but ‘name calling’ does diminish something very series in the most disrespectful way...

[Oliver_W]

Oh come on, his "getting physical" could be ignored by moving a few feet away. The response was no way proportionate.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Were they not taught sticks and stones?

I'm sure all the extreme left violence in America has influenced them.

Which is shocking

[bots]

i know it can some times be very difficult to keep your cool under extreme provocation, the law was on their side, the police had been called and they were never in danger from a potty mouthed pensioner

[Liam-]

Yeah, let’s just ignore racial abuse and violence

[Babayaro.]

Ammi & Liam are right!

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Yeah, let’s just ignore racial abuse and violence

What's the use in responding to it? His mind's not gonna be changed and no-one was agreeing with him, so ignoring him was literally the best thing to do.

[thesheriff443]

Racism and violence are both crimes.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Babayaro.

Ammi & Liam are right!

Well Ammi is more alt-right but thank you

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Racism and violence are both crimes.

Punching a weak old man is worse than using bad words, maybe they can take each other to court?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

What's the use in responding to it? His mind's not gonna be changed and no-one was agreeing with him, so ignoring him was literally the best thing to do.

Why should they ignore it? Why should they sit and listen to a horrible racist pig racially abuse them and turn the other cheek? Why should we be expecting them to suffer through it? They shouldn’t just have to accept and absorb horrible, volatile and violent bigoted abuse

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Why should they ignore it? Why should they sit and listen to a horrible racist pig racially abuse them and turn the other cheek? Why should we be expecting them to suffer through it? They shouldn’t just have to accept and absorb horrible, volatile and violent bigoted abuse

Sure, shout him down. Call him names back. That's as far as it should go.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...being called ‘a monkey’ or a ‘N’ isn’t name calling, it’s racial abuse ...and it’s also been reported as him becoming physical first as well.../..the video isn’t clear enough, though... so we’ll see...but ‘name calling’ does diminish something very series in the most disrespectful way...

I have to ask something here Ammi, I'm afraid. If, in the context of school children, a child was racially abusing another child... would you then take no action if that child turned around and punched them in the face (hard enough to give them multiple contusions)?

Would you take no action if the other kid hit first?

Would you take no action, even if the kid being abusive was a known and persistent bully?

I'm hoping and assuming that the answer to all of those, is that physical violence is never the appropriate response. That defending yourself is OK if someone won't get off of you, for example, is OK but if someone hits you and runs away... you tell someone, you don't chase after them and hit them back.

And assuming all of those things (and I really do hope I'm right, that a teacher wouldn't ever justify children carrying out physical retaliation)..

WHY on earth would it be OK for grown adults to engage in unnecessary physical retaliation?

I'm not talking about empathy here; of course you might understand why a kid would hit back. I understand why the people on the bus were frustrated, upset, enraged and hit back. Empathising with why it happened is NOT the same thing as condoning it, and certainly not the same as encouraging it or advocating for it as an appropriate course of action.

Can we forgive these guys for being frustrated, hurt and lashing out? Absolutely... but should we be telling them (and others) that it was justified? In fact not even just justified - but the RIGHT thing to do?

I just can't imagine it.

I can't imagine that you'd be approached by a child saying that another child did something to them - even something awful - and the response would be "Oh you should have socked them one back, right in the side of the head, little Jimmy".

[Liam-]

Nah, anyone that’s big enough to feel comfortable starting violence should be big and comfortable enough to expect it back