[Ammi]

...there is still a homophobic element to the attack..(..imo..)...if it’s something they wouldn’t have requested of a heterosexual couple...fir them to show public displays of affection for the attackers’ personal amusement in some way...the request was made purely because of their sexuality, I feel...that is homophobia..

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...there is still a homophobic element to the attack..(..imo..)...if it’s something they wouldn’t have requested of a heterosexual couple...fir them to show public displays of affection for the attackers’ personal amusement in some way...the request was made purely because of their sexuality, I feel...that is homophobia..

I don't disagree that it's partly driven by them being gay and these individuals noticing that and them being targeted because of that, so they were targeted because they were gay, but not because the attackers were homophobic. Its a complicated one there and like I said it doesn't lessen the seriousness of the crime AT ALL, but I do think it's worth preserving words like homophobia and not letting them fall into the realms of dubious meaning. Homophobes are people who dislike or hate homosexuals and think that homosexuality is morally wrong or distasteful. That's what it should always mean... It should be clear what someone means when they say something is homophobic. IMO it's quite important.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't disagree that it's partly driven by them being gay and these individuals noticing that and them being targeted because of that, so they were targeted because they were gay, but not because the attackers were homophobic. Its a complicated one there and like I said it doesn't lessen the seriousness of the crime AT ALL, but I do think it's worth preserving words like homophobia and not letting them fall into the realms of dubious meaning. Homophobes are people who dislike or hate homosexuals and think that homosexuality is morally wrong or distasteful. That's what it should always mean... It should be clear what someone means when they say something is homophobic. IMO it's quite important.

...I think you and I are going to disagree on this one TS...I do feel that it’s important to preserve words as you say...so that they keep their weight and the gravity ...but I cannot look at the blood on those faces and running down their clothes...realise the fear and confusion they must have felt then and look at how that will effect them in the future...?...and not have the word and the mindset of homophobia scream at me in the loudest of voices...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I think you and I are going to disagree on this one TS...I do feel that it’s important to preserve words as you say...so that they keep their weight and the gravity ...but I cannot look at the blood on those faces and running down their clothes...realise the fear and confusion they must have felt then and look at how that will effect them in the future...?...and not have the word and the mindset of homophobia scream at me in the loudest of voices...

just a question Ammi, I don't know if you recall the disabled woman covered in flour while minding her own business in a park maybe a year or so back and you pointed to a lack of things to do as being a possible factor in their behaviour, would you say the same for these 4 given it appears the age range starts at 15?

for clarification I personally don't think a lack of things to do is any excuse for thuggery anywhere...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

just a question Ammi, I don't know if you recall the disabled woman covered in flour while minding her own business in a park maybe a year or so back and you pointed to a lack of things to do as being a possible factor in their behaviour, would you say the same for these 4 given it appears the age range starts at 15?

for clarification I personally don't think a lack of things to do is any excuse for thuggery anywhere...

...I can’t recall the thread or the context in which I said that..if I did and if you say I did then I must have, Cherie...unless I can recap then I can’t possible reply to your question ...as I’m sure you’ll realise...


...I guess all I can say..?... as a general on the forum I don’t go with these type of ‘analogies’ because I prefer to look at things individually with all of the factors involved ..and less a one size fits all, type thing...if that makes sense...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I can’t recall the thread or the context in which I said that..if I did and if you say I did then I must have, Cherie...unless I can recap then I can’t possible reply to your question ...as I’m sure you’ll realise...


...I guess all I can say..?... as a general on the forum I don’t go with these type of ‘analogies’ because I prefer to look at things individually with all of the factors involved ..and less a one size fits all, type thing...if that makes sense...

Okay no worries, thanks for the response

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I think you and I are going to disagree on this one TS...I do feel that it’s important to preserve words as you say...so that they keep their weight and the gravity ...but I cannot look at the blood on those faces and running down their clothes...realise the fear and confusion they must have felt then and look at how that will effect them in the future...?...and not have the word and the mindset of homophobia scream at me in the loudest of voices...

That's where it gets difficult for me thoygh too Ammi and I find this hard to express in a way that doesn't sound like I'm trying to excuse or downplay attacks on LGBT people; like some people might see a gay person being attacked specifically for being gay and say "Forget homophobia assault is never acceptable" but that's not what I'm aiming for here at all.

I look at those pictures and they scream at me the entitlement and aggression of a group of males who wanted to use two women for their own pleasure, and became angry and violent when they weren't able to control them and they didn't comply. I think people might (wrongly) use the fact that they are gay to dismiss that part of this attack entirely. I don't know to what expent homophobic thought motivated these individuals but I am fairly certain that their over-riding mindset in doing any of it is that women are the belongings and playthings of men, and FAR, FAR too many young men are growing up with that idea.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's where it gets difficult for me thoygh too Ammi and I find this hard to express in a way that doesn't sound like I'm trying to excuse or downplay attacks on LGBT people; like some people might see a gay person being attacked specifically for being gay and say "Forget homophobia assault is never acceptable" but that's not what I'm aiming for here at all.

I look at those pictures and they scream at me the entitlement and aggression of a group of males who wanted to use two women for their own pleasure, and became angry and violent when they weren't able to control them and they didn't comply. I think people might (wrongly) use the fact that they are gay to dismiss that part of this attack entirely. I don't know to what expent homophobic thought motivated these individuals but I am fairly certain that their over-riding mindset in doing any of it is that women are the belongings and playthings of men, and FAR, FAR too many young men are growing up with that idea.

...I agree that there is a good possibility the same wouldn’t have been requested of two males...to ‘perform’, you know...so that obviously is factored in ...that they were exerting a control ...but that still for me doesn’t take away the homophobia...it only adds another level...their action was still homophobic and I use that word with its full weight, TS...but obviously those are just my feelings...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I agree that there is a good possibility the same wouldn’t have been requested of two males...to ‘perform’, you know...so that obviously is factored in ...that they were exerting a control ...but that still for me doesn’t take away the homophobia...it only adds another level...their action was still homophobic and I use that word with its full weight, TS...but obviously those are just my feelings...

I just can't see that the element motivated by their sexuality is hatred or fear or disgust which to me are essential components of homophobia. I'm not saying those sort of attacks don't happen, especially sexual assaults on gay women ("Women and women together is wrong, women are for men" sort of mindset) and maybe an element of that was going on here? But I honestly get the impression that they found the idea of two girls together appealing and wanted a front row seat, with the anger coming from being denied that and confronted.

[Ammi]

...but if the same requests for those displays would not have been made to a heterosexual couple ...then that is showing prejudice in the first instance and the very definition of homophobia...first there was homophobia and then something else equally unpleasant followed ...

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just can't see that the element motivated by their sexuality is hatred or fear or disgust which to me are essential components of homophobia. I'm not saying those sort of attacks don't happen, especially sexual assaults on gay women ("Women and women together is wrong, women are for men" sort of mindset) and maybe an element of that was going on here? But I honestly get the impression that they found the idea of two girls together appealing and wanted a front row seat, with the anger coming from being denied that and confronted.

yeah, i would have thought a homophobic attack would not have been encouraging the activity, but it's only my opinion