[Kizzy]

The Scottish protesters had him pegged, UKIP are the BNP in a better suit.

[joeysteele]

This thread contains some really strong points and observations from both sides.

I myself feel that come the general election UKIP will likely do a great deal better than previous years but somehow not make 20%.
What I find odd in the polls is, as UKIP rise and the Conservatives fall,despite that from the low base the Lib Dems were on anyway, they are falling too and really into near desperate depths,one poll has them on only 7%.

I still believe the Conservatives will not get less than 29/30% in a general election and I also believe a new leader for them would go some way to pulling back some support.
Just as had Gordon Brown been replaced by Labour at this time before the last election, they may well have won at least another 20 seats at least.

Never will I believe the Conservatives are only on 24% like one poll says,just as I never believed in 2010 that the Lib Dems would finish ahead of Labour either despite polls indicating that.
It irritates me the emphasis that gets put on the opinion polls by the media, polls are a sort of guide, nothing else, how many times are they wrong and badly wrong too.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Sometimes less is more.

True .....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Sometimes less is more liv.

I actually wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to GiRtH.

If you have a problem with my posts, you know, being too long or whatever, please - please - put me on ignore.

[arista]

"It irritates me the emphasis that gets put on the opinion polls by the media,
polls are a sort of guide, nothing else,
how many times are they wrong and badly wrong too."

What about Live Debates
with color lines moving up and down
sometimes confusing the very old.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"It irritates me the emphasis that gets put on the opinion polls by the media,
polls are a sort of guide, nothing else,
how many times are they wrong and badly wrong too."

What about Live Debates
with color lines moving up and down
sometimes confusing the very old.

I find those actually really annoying and not really saying what thepresenter of the programme says they are anyway.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I actually wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to GiRtH.

If you have a problem with my posts, you know, being too long or whatever, please - please - put me on ignore.

Yes you were livia, just stop.

[MTVN]

Have got a feeling Dave will still pull it out the bag

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The Scottish protesters had him pegged, UKIP are the BNP in a better suit.

No ... I think that's a bit unfair, UKIP have a large number of members from all racial and religious backgrounds. They are a respectable Political Party and to liken them to an out and out racist party is the sort of cheap tactic employed by UKIP's detractors when they have run out of normal political argument/debate.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

No ... I think that's a bit unfair, UKIP have a large number of members from all racial and religious backgrounds. They are a respectable Political Party and to liken them to an out and out racist party is the sort of cheap tactic employed by UKIP's detractors when they have run out of normal political argument/debate.

I agree, Nedusa. I don't have much time for UKIP, but they are mostly made up of educated people and professionals. As much as I don't agree with them, I don't see how they could be likened to the illiterate, ill-educated, slack-jawed knuckle-draggers that make up the BNP. I believe it is possible to have a discussion about immigration without being a fascist yourself.

[Kizzy]

I stand by what I said, maybe they aren't thugs but still have the same blinkered bigoted views. Ask many of their supporters why they hold the opinion to pull out and I doubt they will be able to give a rational explanation.
It's just a knee jerk reaction to the relaxation of borders to EU citizens by Jerusalem warbling middle England.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Have got a feeling Dave will still pull it out the bag

That certainly isn't impossible and as Livia has said on this thread and other threads,(and I always listen to her), it is still near 2 years to the next election.

Personally though,I cannot see him coming out a winner but I would never believe that he couldn't achieve a Gordon Brown in 2010,where the Labour party this time in 2015 were denied an overall majority like the Conservatives were in 2010.

I do think with a new leader, the Conservatives would more than likely certainly achieve that and could maybe even be the largest party or close to being so.
Not however now with David Cameron, I feel myself,he is as a leader seen as really weak, a loser and largely now partly discredited too even by a good chunk of his own party.
Much like Gordon Brown was in the last year or so up to the 2010 election.

Labour made the big mistake of hanging on to Brown until the election in 2010,it was widely seen as a massive error of judgement to do so, for me, the Conservatives can still learn from that and not fall into the same situation and set out to get that new leader with a new vision or even a vision at all.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I stand by what I said, maybe they aren't thugs but still have the same blinkered bigoted views. Ask many of their supporters why they hold the opinion to pull out and I doubt they will be able to give a rational explanation.
It's just a knee jerk reaction to the relaxation of borders to EU citizens by Jerusalem warbling middle England.

No I still feel UKIP has a valid argument with respect to unlimited and uncontrolled immigration. The UK will always need workers across all levels from manual to tradesmen to highly skilled professionals but to put it simply the people currently domiciled and working in the UK are paying all the usual bills including mortgages on the houses they have bought. They have families and probably have to work overtime or take second jobs to make ends meet.

So what happens when populations from say Eastern European countries come to work in the UK. They have the same skill sets but they do not have the same overheads ie mortgages or school fees or other debt, they will probably charge less and so easily undercut their UK counterparts.

So now what for all these men and their families, their bills , their mortgages what the hell are they supposed to do ? Drop their rates or work for less... Nonsense how can they ???

This is where uncontrolled immigration from poorer European countries will lead us.. Just creating more problems making the companies and bosses richer whilst the people who live and work in the UK with children in schools Find themselves out of work or having to work for less.

This is unacceptable, UKIP quite rightly has challenged the immigration question and rightly so...!!!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

No I still feel UKIP has a valid argument with respect to unlimited and uncontrolled immigration. The UK will always need workers across all levels from manual to tradesmen to highly skilled professionals but to put it simply the people currently domiciled and working in the UK are paying all the usual bills including mortgages on the houses they have bought. They have families and probably have to work overtime or take second jobs to make ends meet.

So what happens when populations from say Eastern European countries come to work in the UK. They have the same skill sets but they do not have the same overheads ie mortgages or school fees or other debt, they will probably charge less and so easily undercut their UK counterparts.

So now what for all these men and their families, their bills , their mortgages what the hell are they supposed to do ? Drop their rates or work for less... Nonsense how can they ???

This is where uncontrolled immigration from poorer European countries will lead us.. Just creating more problems making the companies and bosses richer whilst the people who live and work in the UK with children in schools Find themselves out of work or having to work for less.

This is unacceptable, UKIP quite rightly has challenged the immigration question and rightly so...!!!

I don't understand you here, they will not have bills, rent or families?
They come due to our attractive minimum wage, are you saying that there sould be no EU workers in the UK?

[Nedusa]

No, what I'm saying is at the present the EU is made up of a large group of countries each with their own fiscal,economic and tax rules. This results in migrations of workers to the richer parts of the EU. Also countries like the UK with good social benefit systems are indeed a real magnet for workers and families of poorer countries in the EU.

If a large number of workers with similar trades ie plumbers,builders etc come to the UK they usually come first without families and so do not have mortgages (preferring to mayber rent from the private sector) so their overheads are lower and so they can afford to work for less money. This in turn takes the work off workers who are established in the UK and have families + mortgages so need to charge the normal rate.

Bosses can now employ these EE workers for less and this create problems for the established workforce. Also we see from surveys that a large proportion of this money is sent back to these EE countries and so does not go round the money supply in the UK. This in turn does not benefit other UK businesses as the wealth is being siphoned off.

This helps no one in the UK and so my view is that uncontrolled immigration is wrong on so many levels, UKIP have the sense to say what most people already know.

Whats wrong with that...........it certainly does not make them a party like the BNP eg

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

No, what I'm saying is at the present the EU is made up of a large group of countries each with their own fiscal,economic and tax rules. This results in migrations of workers to the richer parts of the EU. Also countries like the UK with good social benefit systems are indeed a real magnet for workers and families of poorer countries in the EU.

If a large number of workers with similar trades ie plumbers,builders etc come to the UK they usually come first without families and so do not have mortgages (preferring to mayber rent from the private sector) so their overheads are lower and so they can afford to work for less money. This in turn takes the work off workers who are established in the UK and have families + mortgages so need to charge the normal rate.

Bosses can now employ these EE workers for less and this create problems for the established workforce. Also we see from surveys that a large proportion of this money is sent back to these EE countries and so does not go round the money supply in the UK. This in turn does not benefit other UK businesses as the wealth is being siphoned off.

This helps no one in the UK and so my view is that uncontrolled immigration is wrong on so many levels, UKIP have the sense to say what most people already know.

Whats wrong with that...........it certainly does not make them a party like the BNP eg

They have families and property at home, that is why they send money back they also have to live and work here.
How can they employ them for less, They have to go through PAYE don't they?