[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh that was just me elaborating what I was asking, are they entitled to their thoughts - you say yes, speech seems more on the edge, and I think the entire forum would agree that actions are unacceptable - I'm more interested in everyones lines of what people are entitled to as far as racism/sexism etc go

I still don't quite understand what you are getting at? As you say, I can't think of anyone who would not condemn racist / homophobic actions on this forum. I think most people have kind of answered whilst they may or may not agree, you can't stop people thinking anything but acting upon those thoughts is wrong. However, I feel that you have not had the answer you are looking for as you appear to be probing more even when people have answered and in some way intimating their thoughts/opinions are not right. What are your views on the topic? What do you think people are entitled to? I think I know the answer but I don't want to assume either. How do you think you can remove people's entitlements to their own opinion, spoken or unspoken? We have laws in place to ensure that hate crimes and hate speech is illegal, what more do you suggest?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. If someone is free to spout hate then other people should be free to denounce it, we should not decree the right to respond as 'nitpicking' and make out that people should not take offense because of the situation of the country we live in.

Why should only the hateful be allowed to speak their minds freely?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then try to deny someone else from employing their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

Completely agree, I was trying to get to the bottom of if that is what Withano was trying to say. Freedom of speech is a 2 way street, whichever side of the street you are on

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then take offense when someone else employs their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

How about people of faith? I mean Muslims, a large amount of Christians, about half of Jews... their faith dictates their life. Should they be "called out" because their opinion differs, even if they wish no harm to gay people? What's the most important thing? People's religious freedom or the rights of the homosexual?

[the record, I am not one of the Jews who is against homosexuality...]

Muslims in the Middle East are carrying on a reign of terror against lots of people... women, other Muslims, other faiths, homosexuals... what should we do about them? How do you change their minds?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I still don't quite understand what you are getting at? As you say, I can't think of anyone who would not condemn racist / homophobic actions on this forum. I think most people have kind of answered whilst they may or may not agree, you can't stop people thinking anything but acting upon those thoughts is wrong. However, I feel that you have not had the answer you are looking for as you appear to be probing more even when people have answered and in some way intimating their thoughts/opinions are not right. What are your views on the topic? What do you think people are entitled to? I think I know the answer but I don't want to assume either. How do you think you can remove people's entitlements to their own opinion, spoken or unspoken? We have laws in place to ensure that hate crimes and hate speech is illegal, what more do you suggest?

Thats not true at all, I have seen tens of answers that I was looking for, theyre all very interesting even though they were often different to one another.


My take is - I am very aware I cant police thoughts - thats been brought up a lot for some reason, but I dont believe they are entitled to hate entire groups because there is not a valid reason to do so. In a similar way to how someone out there right now has the belief that they are entitled to murder whoever they want. I believe they are wrong, their belief is invalid (imo)
I do not believe I can police this thought. I just dont believe you can be entitled to something that is fundamentally invalid, although it does, and will happen.

[user104658]

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

Agreed

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This is an example of what I'm talking about. If someone is free to spout hate then other people should be free to denounce it, we should not decree the right to respond as 'nitpicking' and make out that people should not take offense because of the situation of the country we live in.

Why should only the hateful be allowed to speak their minds freely?

Who are the hateful? Because I see much more venom and lots of insults aimed at people of faith in this country.

I have lots of gay friends, I don't know any of them who suffer being gay. Them embrace their lives, they have good careers, they're happy in their personal life... I never hear any of them moaning about homophobia, but I do hear them celebrating the fact that they can now marry in this country. I've been "best woman" at a gay wedding, it was the most joyful thing ever. Things are changing here... I'd rather be celebrating that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

Couldn't agree more.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

How about people of faith? I mean Muslims, a large amount of Christians, about half of Jews... their faith dictates their life. Should they be "called out" because their opinion differs, even if they wish no harm to gay people? What's the most important thing? People's religious freedom or the rights of the homosexual?

[the record, I am not one of the Jews who is against homosexuality...]

Muslims in the Middle East are carrying on a reign of terror against lots of people... women, other Muslims, other faiths, homosexuals... what should we do about them? How do you change their minds?

Religion isn't beyond criticism, believe in whatever faith you want but with Christians in particular (mainly because I'm more familiar with the bible so can talk from more of a position of knowledge when it comes to them), the bible is a mess of contradictions and most Christians choose what passages to follow, if someone chooses to follow passages that are anti-gay but are okay with eating shelfish or wearing mixed fabrics then I think it's as much the right of people to call it out as it is to the Christian to believe in it.

Like with Freedom of speech, people are free to believe in whatever they want and other people are free to question it.

As for your last point, nobody can change another person's mind. All we can do is oppose people who would seek to take people's rights away.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

...sorry I’m finding difficulty at bolding with this bit of technology I’m using atm...but with the last paragraph..?...yeah I agree those benign voices should be heard, but then what...I mean our own opinion is surely less important ../ ..just more self indulgent..than our actions in ‘facing’ that ism...and not throwing names at it, like calling it an ist and walking away or repeatedly calling it an ist etc..(...if that makes sense..)...so the all importance is the communication with these things, otherwise the reaction to someone’s beliefs can be too similar to the beliefs themselves...

[montblanc]

no wtf

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.
:.

Oh yeh, there was a thread with people claiming that John from Big Brother was entitled to his homophobic opinion, and I was just like "is he tho?"

I'm still not entirely convinced that I know where I stand on it. Like can you be entitled to hate an entire group of people? Does he have that 'right'? I know it cant be policed, but is it really within your entitlement to hate a group of others?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Religion isn't beyond criticism, believe in whatever faith you want but with Christians in particular (mainly because I'm more familiar with the bible so can talk from more of a position of knowledge when it comes to them), the bible is a mess of contradictions and most Christians choose what passages to follow, if someone chooses to follow passages that are anti-gay but are okay with eating shelfish or wearing mixed fabrics then I think it's as much the right of people to call it out as it is to the Christian to believe in it.

Like with Freedom of speech, people are free to believe in whatever they want and other people are free to question it.

As for your last point, nobody can change another person's mind. All we can do is oppose people who would seek to take people's rights away.

I agree, religion isn't beyond criticism. Personally I don't happen to believe in a God who would not love something he created, and he created us all. In my opinion... let's not turn this into a religious discussion.

Again in my opinion, people get so upset when someone says something hateful to them... instead of seeing the person who would speak in that way as a moron. I am not sticking up for people being hateful. I am saying, let them say what they want, it shows the world who they are. And maybe use that energy where people are really suffering.

I have a recent example... when visiting my fiancé's family in Texas, we both heard one of his relatives say how disappointed his parents must be with him bringing a Jew home. But at least I wasn't black. They said it with no humour... they were in earnest. So instead of a wedding in Texas like we were planning, we're getting married over here and only his parents are invited. The rest of them can go and f--- themselves. Their opinion of me means nothing because they're bigots.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

Oh yeh, there was a thread with people claiming that John from Big Brother was entitled to his homophobic opinion, and I was just like "is he tho?"

I'm still not entirely convinced that I know where I stand on it. Like can you be entitled to hate an entire group of people? Does he have that 'right'? I know it cant be policed, but is it really within your entitlement to hate a group of others?

Okay you see this is an example of going too far.

John NEVER said he hated gay people. That's just you putting words into people's mouth again.

I actually thought Shane J's/Courtney's approach was fantastic on it, he called him out on it, listened to his view, told him he disagree, full stop.

He's not going around screaming homophobe so why should other people on his behalf?

It actually drives me mad people getting offended on others behalf.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Okay you see this is an example of going too far.

John NEVER said he hated gay people. That's just you putting words into people's mouth again.

I actually thought Shane J's/Courtney's approach was fantastic on it, he called him out on it, listened to his view, told him he disagree, full stop.

He's not going around screaming homophobe so why should other people on his behalf?

It actually drives me mad people getting offended on others behalf.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

No thats not an example, I'm aware of what John said and didnt say, but that is what inspired the thread.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

No thats not an example, I'm aware of what John said and didnt say, but that is what inspired the thread.

No, you're backing out now because you said the wrong thing With. You can not ask the question is John B entitled to hate people without inferring that he does when he quite clearly doesn't.

This is where arguments are lost, when people make up ****.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

No, you're backing out now because you said the wrong thing With. You can not ask the question is John B entitled to hate people without inferring that he does when he quite clearly doesn't.

This is where arguments are lost, when people make up ****.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

We can both paraphrase til the other stops making sense. Here for example you just said you lost the argument which is fine and all but its not adding much.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm really not asking whether a person has the right to change a persons racist etc views, I'm asking whether theyre entitled to those views in todays society in the first place.

Discussions are important, and labels are counterintuitive at times, sure, but are we passed the point where these sort of views are ever valid at any time by any person? Or are they still ok in some situations?

So you think you get to decide if a person is racist or not do you.

If a person calls a black person a blatantly offensive name I think most would agree that was racist. If a person disapproves of mass immigration you cannot without doubt class that as racist. You can personally interpret it as so but that does not give you the right to call them a blatantly offensive name based on your interpretation. One is no better than the other.

People have a right to disapprove of mass immigration - it is not an offence to do so. You may not like that but it is not your right to dictate how they can or cannot feel on that subject and many others. Voicing disapproval in itself is not hate - that word is being massively abused by a minority trying to dictate how others should think.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Who are the hateful? Because I see much more venom and lots of insults aimed at people of faith in this country.

I have lots of gay friends, I don't know any of them who suffer being gay. Them embrace their lives, they have good careers, they're happy in their personal life... I never hear any of them moaning about homophobia, but I do hear them celebrating the fact that they can now marry in this country. I've been "best woman" at a gay wedding, it was the most joyful thing ever. Things are changing here... I'd rather be celebrating that.

Nobody is beyond criticism. If a religious person holds opinions that are inflamatory to another demographic then that demographic has as much right to respond as the former has to hold that belief and vice versa.

I criticise certain religious people (I'm not painting in broad strokes here, I know that there's a lot of religious people who have no issues with the LGBT) because I feel they use their opinions to justify their hate, I can understand that certain religious folk can't agree to gay marriage not because they are opposed to homosexuality but because they believe marriage is between a man or a woman. I also criticise people who are overly hateful towards religion because everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe in. I dislike organised religion, but I dislike it all equally so I'll often criticise people who are overly hateful towards one religion when they can't see that the problems they have with one religion have been common to all religions at some point or another.

Most people who are LGBT have lived a lot of their lives being made to feel that they are not right, that they are inherently wrong. Even after coming out, a lot of gay people won't feel comfortable showing affection towards their partner in public or talking about the issues that plague the LGBT community to somebody who isn't part of that community. LGBT people are always thinking 'hmm, how open can I really be about myself around this person? How much risk is involved?'

As a bisexual person, I feel very uncomfortable talking to both straight and gay people about troubles I've faced because I've experienced hate from both. I don't speak to many people IRL about the troubles I've faced because there's always going to be an element of distrust there, that you've got to hold things back. It's difficult to put into words how it feels but just because somebody doesn't speak of discrimination does not mean it doesn't happen.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So you think you get to decide if a person is racist or not do you.

If a person calls a black person a blatantly offensive name I think most would agree that was racist. If a person disapproves of mass immigration you cannot without doubt class that as racist. You can personally interpret it as so but that does not give you the right to call them a blatantly offensive name based on your interpretation. One is no better than the other.

People have a right to disapprove of mass immigration - it is not an offence to do so. You may not like that but it is not your right to dictate how they can or cannot feel on that subject and many others. Voicing disapproval in itself is not hate - that word is being massively abused by a minority trying to dictate how others should think.

I agree with all of that, seems a bit of a random thing to bring up though.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So you think you get to decide if a person is racist or not do you.

If a person calls a black person a blatantly offensive name I think most would agree that was racist. If a person disapproves of mass immigration you cannot without doubt class that as racist. You can personally interpret it as so but that does not give you the right to call them a blatantly offensive name based on your interpretation. One is no better than the other.

People have a right to disapprove of mass immigration - it is not an offence to do so. You may not like that but it is not your right to dictate how they can or cannot feel on that subject and many others. Voicing disapproval in itself is not hate - that word is being massively abused by a minority trying to dictate how others should think.

Well yes, if someone believes that another person is racist then that is their opinion. you can challenge that opinion but you can't demand they change it or aren't entitled to it.

You have a right to your opinions and everyone else has a right to have their say on those opinions and vice versa.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nobody is beyond criticism. If a religious person holds opinions that are inflamatory to another demographic then that demographic has as much right to respond as the former has to hold that belief and vice versa.

I criticise certain religious people (I'm not painting in broad strokes here, I know that there's a lot of religious people who have no issues with the LGBT) because I feel they use their opinions to justify their hate, I can understand that certain religious folk can't agree to gay marriage not because they are opposed to homosexuality but because they believe marriage is between a man or a woman. I also criticise people who are overly hateful towards religion because everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe in. I dislike organised religion, but I dislike it all equally so I'll often criticise people who are overly hateful towards one religion when they can't see that the problems they have with one religion have been common to all religions at some point or another.

Most people who are LGBT have lived a lot of their lives being made to feel that they are not right, that they are inherently wrong. Even after coming out, a lot of gay people won't feel comfortable showing affection towards their partner in public or talking about the issues that plague the LGBT community to somebody who isn't part of that community. LGBT people are always thinking 'hmm, how open can I really be about myself around this person? How much risk is involved?'

As a bisexual person, I feel very uncomfortable talking to both straight and gay people about troubles I've faced because I've experienced hate from both. I don't speak to many people IRL about the troubles I've faced because there's always going to be an element of distrust there, that you've got to hold things back. It's difficult to put into words how it feels but just because somebody doesn't speak of discrimination does not mean it doesn't happen.

It's hard to argue with any of that. Thanks for sharing Dezzy... I totally get where you're coming from.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Well yes, if someone believes that another person is racist then that is their opinion. you can challenge that opinion but you can't demand they change it or aren't entitled to it.

You have a right to your opinions and everyone else has a right to have their say on those opinions and vice versa.

It is their opinion to believe someone is racist but is not necessarily a proven fact that gives them the right to verbally abuse them by publicly calling them racist. It comes down to abuse in exactly the same way.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...sorry I’m finding difficulty at bolding with this bit of technology I’m using atm...but with the last paragraph..?...yeah I agree those benign voices should be heard, but then what...I mean our own opinion is surely less important ../ ..just more self indulgent..than our actions in ‘facing’ that ism...and not throwing names at it, like calling it an ist and walking away or repeatedly calling it an ist etc..(...if that makes sense..)...so the all importance is the communication with these things, otherwise the reaction to someone’s beliefs can be too similar to the beliefs themselves...

Great post Ammi. I think the key is being able to discuss and debate and hope that people will learn to think differently. Just calling people a name for their views is pointless and is as bad as the view in the first place.