[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

I don't think theres an element of overreaction at all. Obviously.

Of course there may well be. But I really don't think so.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think theres an element of overreaction at all. Obviously.

Of course there may well be. But I really don't think so.

Do you have to agree with an opinion in order for it to be valid?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do you have to agree with an opinion in order for it to be valid?

No?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

As for this part, my ideas have actually gone right out the window in general. As when I attempted to actually do the stuff I said, there were just a lot of accusations of bias (from both sides) and people moaning. A lot of posts being deleted and ending up with 'why was that deleted' stuff and just generally a massive pain in the arse. I have now decided to just leave this section to burn tbh, as I cannot win no matter what it seems. Infact, I barely do any moderating at all these days because of this same reason. Its just not worth the stress. It will please you to know I have asked to step down a few times, and have just a few days ago again offered to step down to allow new blood. Not sure how that will go really but at the min I am basically a 'normal member' but with a green name.

You most certainly must NOT step down Vicky because you are a good moderator.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with 'stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.'

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

exactly

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with 'stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.'

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

Very well put

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

No?

Well your point was that a man's opinion of it being an over reaction is invalid because he is male, so I asked if it would be more valid if a female had that opinion, to which you replied stating that you disagree with the opinion (not answering the question of whether or not the opinion would then be VALID).

So I was left having to assume that the opinion being a valid one (if stated by another female) was in some way linked to whether or not you agree with it?

[Vicky.]

I just cannot imagine women telling blokes they were bigoted for discussing an issue that will affect them in a negative way. And thats basically what you are saying here, that women are pretending this will be a problem in order to hide their transphobia.

Its not transphobia. Its doing what we have been taught to do. Minimizing the risk to ourselves from male people.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

tbf this is levied at people a lot in different discussions on TiBB so it should come as no surprise really

It's a surprise to me here, I thought people had been very heartfelt in their views, you included.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with 'stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.'

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

When have I told you how you think or feel or how you should think or feel? Is my thinking differently to you somehow being confused with me insisting that you should think the same as me? Am I not just stating my own thoughts? Or do we now circle back to "... Well yeah but your thoughts are irrelevant because you aren't female"

Or in other words; I can indeed comment, but if my comments are not in agreement with female commentators, my comments are not relevant.

Is that how this works?

Because again, it sure doesn't seem to be the case when Brillo comments on race issues .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's a surprise to me here, I thought people had been very heartfelt in their views, you included.

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You most certainly must NOT step down Vicky because you are a good moderator.

Vicky is both respected and liked by many judging by peoples’ reactions to her and her posts generally. The forum would not be the same without her!

The fact she has offered to step down demonstrates how fair she tries to be - but she had better not leave!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I just cannot imagine women telling blokes they were bigoted for discussing an issue that will affect them in a negative way. And thats basically what you are saying here, that women are pretending this will be a problem in order to hide their transphobia..

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

[Jack_]

The thing for me is, and the reason why I now make a conscious decision to not partake in these debates - is because they're conducted in a really hostile and exclusionary environment. I personally think it's less about your posts Vicky, and more those who agree with you. We went through a stage years ago where people who dared to have some left-field opinions were being belittled and patronised, and I stopped enjoying and contributing to these kind of threads. Then things got better for a time, and we were able to have a more civilised and productive discourse. But now if anything it's WORSE than it was years ago.

Look, I totally, TOTALLY understand why some women feel the way they do about these issues. And I also totally acknowledge and recognise my privilege as a man (and have explicitly done so before when I've decided to partake, or in similar threads - like the feminism one). This is a really emotive, contemporary issue for people on both sides of the argument - it strikes at the core of people's very being and their legitimacy - and that's why I wasn't surprised when the discussion a few days ago ended up heading in a very sour and reactionary direction.

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is my favourite topic in the world, I spent a year of my life writing and researching about it. I LOVE talking about this, and have done so with female friends. But that's partly why I don't feel comfortable contributing anymore, because I too have a (completely different, granted) personal stake in it. And when you're too emotionally involved, it is very easy to feel personally slighted by the hostile environment these discussions are now conducted in. I just wish we could have these debates in a more fleshed out, academic, civilised manner...with less of the sniping, the baiting, the sarcasm, the exclusion, the inflammatory language, and the like.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place

In a way that makes all the trying to shut us down and attacking comments even more upsetting. Because it's a clear to many that there is something here across the board with women and some seem to try to belittle us for it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

What language TS , as bearing in mind your mention of me and Muslims in a previous post, I am getting the feeling you may be talking about me!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content. .

.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.





.

My post was in relation to your comment implying that we're all a bunch of transphobes pretending we're worried about womens rights though.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When have I told you how you think or feel or how you should think or feel? Is my thinking differently to you somehow being confused with me insisting that you should think the same as me? Am I not just stating my own thoughts? Or do we now circle back to "... Well yeah but your thoughts are irrelevant because you aren't female"

Or in other words; I can indeed comment, but if my comments are not in agreement with female commentators, my comments are not relevant.

Is that how this works?

Because again, it sure doesn't seem to be the case when Brillo comments on race issues .

Perhaps if there was commenting without finger pointing and boxing people up it would help. Even by using her as an example you are overtly calling Brillo a racist. Why is that necessary?

And actually I have disagreed with Brillo before on a few things and said so.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

My post was in relation to your comment implying that we're all a bunch of transphobes pretending we're worried about womens rights though.

I'm sorry TS but this is what you do. You aren't the only one but if want to call other's into question then I'm going to be honest with you.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well your point was that a man's opinion of it being an over reaction is invalid because he is male, so I asked if it would be more valid if a female had that opinion, to which you replied stating that you disagree with the opinion (not answering the question of whether or not the opinion would then be VALID).

So I was left having to assume that the opinion being a valid one (if stated by another female) was in some way linked to whether or not you agree with it?

That wasn't really my point. I don't think anyones opinion on any topic is 'invalid'. My point was that it seems to be men telling women that their fears are unfounded or an overreaction. And the reason for this would be on the whole, that a man just cannot see things from a womans POV. Just like a woman could not see things from a mans POV. You can try but can never really understand. So men see this as women overreacting, fair enough. But given it will be women who this actually affects, I really do not think its right for men to be yelling transphobe and bigot at women who express concerns.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

The language being, men boys, dick and so on?

People have their own personal style of posting. Some posters, like ammi and jack for example, will always make an attempt to say they have looked at both sides, will always put points across in a softer kind of way. Others such as myself and brillo are more blunt and to the point.

My language is my language tbh, and my posting style is my posting style. I am still not really getting how using boy and man about a boy or a man is transphobic language

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

Oh so the mocking, laughing, rolling eyes smileys are annoying you? Welcome to my world.
So can we have an example of one of these posts? quote them... If it's not myself or Vicky that you have taken exception to that narrows it down a little.

I don't know how souls relate to the physical body but in all fairness I haven't seen any support for that theory either, that was as far as I see a very personal view.

As you've shown in relation to the proposed law changes you haven't the scope of information to have an opinion, therefore I fail to see how that elevates you to a position to criticise anyone that has and does take this proposal very seriously.

I would go as far as to say it says something about your own sense of self importance that you feel you can challenge the views of those concerned while you yourself plead ignorance.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As for the chorus of "It's just the man's telling the women's wot to fink!!"... Come on guys you can do better than this. Well most of you can anyway.

Ah ahhhh... you said no mocking.

No it's worse than that, you are making presumptions on what others are thinking.

[user104658]

if people can't see the issue with this thread, they aren't going to, I guess. TIBB serious debates is an off limits zone for actual debates surrounding trans issues or feminism. Duly noted.