[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument. I'm not sexist in the slightest and accusing me of Mansplaining or being "a patronising sexist" is not a shortcut to getting me to shut up just because the person I am disagreeing with happens to be female . It's bull**** jaxie and I'm not playing. I wasn't playing when the "mansplainennnn" cries started up a few months ago, and I'm not playing now. It's not going to stop me from saying what I have to say, ever... It is a complete waste of time. Continue to try to do it if you feel like you must but it genuinely is only your own time that you're wasting.

But you did... that's exactly what you did in that games thread... I'm going to keep referring back to that until you acknowledge the relevance here and across the forum.

This might not be about me, and I'm not suggesting it is.. however I feel that example is comparable.

Your condemnation didn't stop me then either.

[Maru]

I think when people are upset on board, just don't fight with them so full on as it would seem to make things worse. Because it seems like folk here take things to heart... some just need a good vent.

TS, I can kind of understand his point of view where he may be taking some things personally with regards to feeling excluded. I was on his side in the feminism thread (as an individualist feminist), and I could see where he could've been made to feel that his thoughts need not apply because he feels this way as a man. That said, I can also understand the counter-argument. It does read though as someone as a pro-individualist, that because he was made male, his attempt to discuss was always going to be meant to be panned. I also question how much we really should be barring entry in discussions on SD, because it is a debate forum... we're not activists? We're just sharing our opinions... maybe 15 people will read it (and F5 the f*k out of those threads ).

I also think some here need to be very careful too how they word their posts... I'm very conscious of my use of the word "you". In fact, I sometimes have to go back and edit, because in casual conversation irl I use royal "you" in conversation... but the husband who is a skilled writer warned me of it's use. Ever since then, I'm very conscious of it as it is very easy to come off wrong in text this way, and I can see how it effects reactions when the most energized posts are littered with "yous". It makes it come off quite pointed.
I've debated making a small plugin that counts yous in posts in order to come up with aggression levels...

Anyway, those are just some ideas... I don't think anyone is doing anything particularly wrong. But I do see where TS may have taken some of that discussion to heart... and I can't really blame him (as myself) to a degree, because feminism itself--at various points--quite an ugly beast.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is the opposite of what I want. Serious debates would cease to exist at all (which may or may not be a good thing..hmm) if only people who agreed with the OP were allowed to post in that topic

I don't think only female opinions matter either. Its useful to get opinions from everyone, regardless of their sex.

What I disagree with completely, is people trying to shut down the conversation by crying bigot at anyone with the 'wrong' (in their opinion) view. Or, as it seems is happening in this thread, trying to police other peoples language. Of course slurs and such should not be tolerated, but to try and make out that saying a male person is male is so horrendously offensive, well, thats another way of just trying the 'bigot' yell isn't it.

I don't agree when other posters have said that only female opinions matter. Of course men should be able to post too. But what I totally disagree with is when (and this is usually the way it goes down on here) men come in, and try to dismiss womens valid concerns. Or say that women are transphobic. As has happened on many of these threads, and it always does seem to be a male poster doing it, maybe thats just an unfortunate coincidence. I think men should take a bit more time to actually think about WHY women are so concerned about this, why women are so scared of random men. And then try to work out if their concerns really are OTT or if for some reason or other they are trying to minimize the very real threat that most women face in every day of their lives.

I actually think in this debate, that male opinions will be what changes the direction of it all. Once more men start to stand up and say 'no', it will all end. Which is part of the reason behind the recent manfriday campaign stuff...where women are 'self identifying' as men and entering male only swimming sessions and such, in reaction to men doing this to women. Once men are inconvenienced, it will all change I reckon. Just most men are not interested as it will never really affect them. Even with women taking over THEIR spaces in the way that men are colonizing womens spaces (and especially lesbian spaces) there is not the safety element, men will not be unsafe by women being there, in the way women would be with a random man.

In all honesty, if selfID keeps steamrollering its way into businesses and law, I will start using the male areas I think. Because the kind of man who would force his way into female areas with no thought at all for how that makes the women feel, is exactly the kind of man I do not want near me in states of undress. I reckon the male areas would be safer for me, as most of the pervs and voyeurs will be in the womens. And I sure as hell feel safer around even 100 normal men than I would feel in an enclosed space with one predator. Attacks in the male areas would be uncommon also as...most men are not predators and a predator would definitely think twice about attacking in an area thats mainly populated by blokes. Most men are against sexual assault/rape/voyeurism etc.

This of course does not solve the issue of refuges and prisons though, which I do feel are the most important in this debate. Especially given we currently have male rapists in female prisons, and that 50% of those identifying as trans are actually there for sex offenses (way above the average among men). But thats not surprising at all given transvestites are now classed as trans. And as I said before, transvestism is one of the most common paraphilia among s ex offenders. So it stands to reason that if transvestites are classed as trans, there will be a hell of a lot of 'trans' sex offenders.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is what I mean by people creating over-the-top strawmen arguments about this. It doesn't do you any favours? Like several posts of really well constructed arguments but then peppered with passive aggressive, pointed hyperbole. Why?

Because it's true! It's not strawman, passive aggressive or hyperbole.

When women are attacked it is clearly documented that this are raises as contributory.

If you can't acknowledge even a suggestion that this is a factor in sexual assault on women then I really don't see why you've entered the debate to be honest... really honest.

I'm not saying you can't comment either but your opinion really sets alarm bells off to me, it's relevant to the discussion... the fear of assualt and/or abuse is pivotal to the thread in relation to self ID... Why are you insisting on directing the discussion?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There are people who will blame the victim, always, that much is true. Far from the majority in my experience; more like a toxic few. However the way that it was stated is sarcastic and passive aggressive and over-riding the point. In my opinion.

I would also point out that in my experience, the types of comments you mention come from other women far more often than they do from men.

No they don't there you go again.... You don't even realise you're doing it! Where is this documented, I was referring to the line of questioning and it's leading content IN COURT not here or in public.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right; but why not always state it like that, at least in this section Vicky? I really don't want to go back here again but... You yourself are the mod who has made now four (I think?) attempts to "clean up SD's", make it about posts like the one you just made and NOT about posts like your previous ones or the stream of belittling / jibes / opinions disregarded I've had in this thread for having a penis.

I feel like it's worth stating again, as I have in other threads but may be forgotten:

- I don't really agree with untransitioned males entering female toilets and changing areas (I am heavily in favour of self-contained unisex facilities wherever possible)

- I totally agree about the labour officer thing in principle, again its the "angry language" that tips it over into something else

- I also totally agree that male to female trans people should never be eligible to enter female sporting events, as it presents a clear and unfair advantage.



The real debate is getting lost under "something else" and you quite clearly know fine well that that is the major problem with every topic on this section... But again, it just feels like your ideas on that go straight out the window as soon as the topic being discussed is a personal bugbear.

That hasn't happened, as you stated last night you don't have an opinion you just belittle and jibe at those that do by inferring that there is some sinister ulterior motive for their opinion.
Whatever you have between your legs is irrelevant to me, if I see a double standard by Christ I'm going to call you out on it.

[smudgie]

When my kids were little, I would have hated the thought of hubby sending our little daughter into a public loo on her own if there was any possibility of anybody with a penis allowed in there.
On the other hand, I don’t like the thought of someone genuinely going through the stages of transition but not fully transitioned not having separate facilities.
Going into a male public loo dressed as a woman must be an absolute nightmare.
We have male toilets, we have female toilets, we have disabled toilets, in this day and age would it be so impossible to facilitate everybody, after all, everybody pays their taxes so should have equal rights to pee safely.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

Oh... here are the villains, can't say I'm surprised tbf ( jk)

so what REALLY is the issue here, that some comments are vitriolic?.. That people are saying one thing but meaning another?... that moderators are not consistent enough? OR that TS is feeling excluded from the discussion simply for being a man?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

Patronising much?


If you want to see over reacting read the comments section of a Jordan Peterson vid.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

And you have been asked many many times to defend your narrative...

Where is the transphobic language? What is it?

I see you 'see' dick, dick,cock, cock everywhere ... but I can't, show me!

(don't be cheap NIAMH)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you have been asked many many times to defend your narrative...

Where is the transphobic language? What is it?

I see you 'see' dick, dick,cock, cock everywhere ... but I can't, show me!

(don't be cheap LT)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Oh... here are the villains, can't say I'm surprised tbf ( jk)

so what REALLY is the issue here, that some comments are vitriolic?.. That people are saying one thing but meaning another?... that moderators are not consistent enough? OR that TS is feeling excluded from the discussion simply for being a man?

I blame Jeremy Corbyn if I'm considered a villain. Oh look an off topic Corbyn post.

[user104658]

All I have left to add is that I have zero interest in engaging in debates where I'm expected to start "on the back foot" for arbitrary reasons, or am expected to accept having a "lesser opinion".

If others want to do that, that's up to them. It's not for me. So I'll bow out from that.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But you did... that's exactly what you did in that games thread... I'm going to keep referring back to that until you acknowledge the relevance here and across the forum.
.

Good luck with that Kizzy.

[Ashley.]

I haven't seen anybody here invalidate your opinion, but once you start telling everybody else how they should be feeling or how their opinions come across in your eyes, it's not entirely improbable that you're going to face a backlash.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is the opposite of what I want. Serious debates would cease to exist at all (which may or may not be a good thing..hmm) if only people who agreed with the OP were allowed to post in that topic

I don't think only female opinions matter either. Its useful to get opinions from everyone, regardless of their sex.

What I disagree with completely, is people trying to shut down the conversation by crying bigot at anyone with the 'wrong' (in their opinion) view. Or, as it seems is happening in this thread, trying to police other peoples language. Of course slurs and such should not be tolerated, but to try and make out that saying a male person is male is so horrendously offensive, well, thats another way of just trying the 'bigot' yell isn't it.

I don't agree when other posters have said that only female opinions matter. Of course men should be able to post too. But what I totally disagree with is when (and this is usually the way it goes down on here) men come in, and try to dismiss womens valid concerns. Or say that women are transphobic. As has happened on many of these threads, and it always does seem to be a male poster doing it, maybe thats just an unfortunate coincidence. I think men should take a bit more time to actually think about WHY women are so concerned about this, why women are so scared of random men. And then try to work out if their concerns really are OTT or if for some reason or other they are trying to minimize the very real threat that most women face in every day of their lives.

I actually think in this debate, that male opinions will be what changes the direction of it all. Once more men start to stand up and say 'no', it will all end. Which is part of the reason behind the recent manfriday campaign stuff...where women are 'self identifying' as men and entering male only swimming sessions and such, in reaction to men doing this to women. Once men are inconvenienced, it will all change I reckon. Just most men are not interested as it will never really affect them. Even with women taking over THEIR spaces in the way that men are colonizing womens spaces (and especially lesbian spaces) there is not the safety element, men will not be unsafe by women being there, in the way women would be with a random man.

In all honesty, if selfID keeps steamrollering its way into businesses and law, I will start using the male areas I think. Because the kind of man who would force his way into female areas with no thought at all for how that makes the women feel, is exactly the kind of man I do not want near me in states of undress. I reckon the male areas would be safer for me, as most of the pervs and voyeurs will be in the womens. And I sure as hell feel safer around even 100 normal men than I would feel in an enclosed space with one predator. Attacks in the male areas would be uncommon also as...most men are not predators and a predator would definitely think twice about attacking in an area thats mainly populated by blokes. Most men are against sexual assault/rape/voyeurism etc.

This of course does not solve the issue of refuges and prisons though, which I do feel are the most important in this debate. Especially given we currently have male rapists in female prisons, and that 50% of those identifying as trans are actually there for sex offenses (way above the average among men). But thats not surprising at all given transvestites are now classed as trans. And as I said before, transvestism is one of the most common paraphilia among s ex offenders. So it stands to reason that if transvestites are classed as trans, there will be a hell of a lot of 'trans' sex offenders.

Of course it would! It just comes across that way in most of these threads. It's less engaging with WHAT people's disagreements are, and more questioning WHO are they and what position are they in to dare disagree. That is not conducive to a productive debate, it's overly hostile, off-putting and really exclusionary. Like I said, I completely understand that these are emotive discussions on all-sides and so in many respects it's understandable that they go the way they do. But I think it'd be a lot more helpful if we could all reign it in a little, and try to converse with each other respectfully? Less of the sniping, the sarcasm, the entitlement, etc. And this isn't even just a male thing either, there are quite clearly females on here who for whatever reason don't feel comfortable participating in these debates either - as we discovered last week. This isn't good for any of us - there's an opportunity here for us all to share our experiences and perspectives and have a fully fleshed out, academic discussion and try to understand each other's points of view - but that just isn't possible at the moment.

I totally get what you're saying re. the transphobia and bigotry accusations. Look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that some of the language and arguments that have been made on here over the last year or so haven't made me uncomfortable because they have. But that's yours and other people's right to hold opinions that might make some feel uneasy, and in the context of a debate I can't legitimately expect people to not be able to express their genuine feelings . The problem I ACTUALLY have is with the language and tone of people's post that surround those opinions. So, it's less about the opinions and more the way they are put across. Like, 'you're a MAN who are YOU to tell ME how to feel' and 'WHAT would YOU know'. I guarantee that if I posted some of my genuine opinions on these topics, the people who dislike me would immediately circle around with some patronising, dismissive, baiting retorts. When you've invested a huge amount of time and passion in a topic, can you understand how annoying that would be? This is totally different to other debates, where I couldn't care less what people think - when you have a personal stake in it and you're effectively being asked 'well what would you know???' it's pretty damn inflammatory, and is likely to end up in me retaliating with more insults - which is not helpful to anyone. Hence why I refrain from partaking.

But I guess this is a matter for all sides, less of the transphobic/bigot accusations, and less of the exclusionary and patronising posts. More civilised, productive, fleshed out discussions...I don't know how we go about ensuring this happens though. Now...onto the rest...I hope I don't regret engaging with this.

You may have a point about men needing to be inconvenienced first before it becomes a national conversation...that's usually the way, after all. But from my perspective at least...I just...don't and won't care (about females coming into male areas, that is)? When I saw these campaigns you've referenced, my initial thought was 'great! they're more than welcome to come in, hopefully this goes the opposite way and proves we DON'T need segregation'. I think I've expressed this before, but I personally favour complete gender/sex desegregation in many areas of social life. I don't see any need for it (cue people stopping reading here and making 'you're a man' comments...), I actually think the obsession we have as a modern society with segregating and categorising people more and more (this applies to sexuality just as much) causes more problems than it solves. I want to break down gender/sex binary, not enrich it. I realise this is potentially going to be quite inflammatory...so let me explain what I'd actually prefer.

I favour unisex toilets/changing rooms because I don't feel comfortable changing in front of ANYONE, regardless of their sex. Communal changing areas are gross and need banning. Replace them all with individual cubicles that anyone can use. On the issue of toilets - I favour much of the same. At my university library, we had some new gender neutral toilets built (people misunderstand this a lot and think they're just for trans people or 'non binary weird people lul') and they were AMAZING. Basically, you went through a door, and behind it there were three separately locked individual toilets that each had a sink and drier in. They were the cleanest in the whole building. You had your own privacy, your own space and it was perfect. More of these need to build nationally.

As for yours and other's concerns, while I totally understand them (as I said before), I do echo what TS said in that a lot of it (at face value at least) seems to be futile. Put it this way, if a predator wants to enter a female-only space, he is going to do so regardless of whatever is on the sign above the door. No law is going to increase or decrease the likelihood of this happening, IMO. What's more is...you're far more likely to be attacked in a domestic setting by someone you know than a stranger in a public place. That's not to minimise the issue or to say that it doesn't happen, I know it does - I've seen the articles, but I don't think any law is going to prevent this from happening, or even make it less likely. Also - by desegregating these areas, you are statistically likely to have MORE people in them, which actually DOES decrease the chances of anything happening. Here's an interesting question for you as a woman - if you were in a public toilet alone, late at night and with no else around, and a man walked in, would you feel more or less scared than if you were in a public toilet, late at night with ten other men and two other women (presuming it were a unisex toilet)? While I'm not a woman and cannot understand your concerns from your perspective, certainly from mine I would much rather be in any public place with more people - men or women. I don't feel comfortable walking down the street with only one or two people about. There's safety in numbers. [I've just realised I've asked this when you already addressed it in that paragraph, but I've typed it now lol]

The prisons/refuges is a more difficult issue I'll concede, and so I won't address it here because this post will be far too long otherwise.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

Completely agree. Well said.

There is a double standard.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

All I have left to add is that I have zero interest in engaging in debates where I'm expected to start "on the back foot" for arbitrary reasons, or am expected to accept having a "lesser opinion".

If others want to do that, that's up to them. It's not for me. So I'll bow out from that.

Nobody has expected you to have a lesser opinion... You yourself said last night you didn't HAVE an opinion.

You created this debate in relation to your feelings and presumptions about the posts of other members, how that starts you on the back foot for an arbitrary reason I don't know.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

I haven't seen anybody here invalidate your opinion, but once you start telling everybody else how they should be feeling or how their opinions come across in your eyes, it's not entirely improbable that you're going to face a backlash.

Great post, well put.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Completely agree. Well said.

There is a double standard.

Except no one told him he couldn't comment, as has been laboriously reiterated it's his stance that we are all closet transphobes that is the issue

Come on them Marsh put your money where your mouth is and quote the posts telling him he couldn't have an opinion

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When have I told you how you think or feel or how you should think or feel? Is my thinking differently to you somehow being confused with me insisting that you should think the same as me? Am I not just stating my own thoughts? Or do we now circle back to "... Well yeah but your thoughts are irrelevant because you aren't female"

Or in other words; I can indeed comment, but if my comments are not in agreement with female commentators, my comments are not relevant.

Is that how this works?

Because again, it sure doesn't seem to be the case when Brillo comments on race issues .

Without getting into this yet again - I will state again that ‘my Muslim issues’ are with the religion and the anti-female culture - not skin colour. If the majority of men that treat women this way happen to be non-white so be it - maybe you should be asking why - but skin colour is not the issue for me. Is that so hard to comprehend?

You are choosing to assume that my dislike of the religion and culture is directly connected to skin colour - why? - because it is more controversial and likely to offend and undermine. So your insinuations will not prevent me from expressing my opinions if and when the subject comes up again.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Completely agree. Well said.

There is a double standard.

It actually isn't double standards at all though. Can white people comment on race issues? yes Can white people say they know how it feels to be discriminated against like a black person does? No. No one is telling men they can't have an opinion on this, what's being said is you can't tell women that what they feel isn't real and is masking something else (their inner transphobia) well you can tell us that if you want but don't be surprised when we disagree with you

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Completely agree. Well said.

There is a double standard.

Bull. Sounds more like male ego to me.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

But I guess this is a matter for all sides, less of the transphobic/bigot accusations, and less of the exclusionary and patronising posts. More civilised, productive, fleshed out discussions...I don't know how we go about ensuring this happens though. Now...onto the rest...I hope I don't regret engaging with this.

I would bloody love this tbh.

You may have a point about men needing to be inconvenienced first before it becomes a national conversation...that's usually the way, after all. But from my perspective at least...I just...don't and won't care (about females coming into male areas, that is)? When I saw these campaigns you've referenced, my initial thought was 'great! they're more than welcome to come in, hopefully this goes the opposite way and proves we DON'T need segregation'. I think I've expressed this before, but I personally favour complete gender/sex desegregation in many areas of social life. I don't see any need for it (cue people stopping reading here and making 'you're a man' comments...), I actually think the obsession we have as a modern society with segregating and categorising people more and more (this applies to sexuality just as much) causes more problems than it solves. I want to break down gender/sex binary, not enrich it. I realise this is potentially going to be quite inflammatory...so let me explain what I'd actually prefer.

Yeah I remember you are against sex segregation to start with

I would have no issue with single floor to ceiling contained loos. Just..thats not whats happening. Whats happening is that the usual flimsy (sometimes just shower curtainy type things) areas being deemed unisex. Which I am very very against, as is fairly obvious

If it was done properly, great. But its not.

I favour unisex toilets/changing rooms because I don't feel comfortable changing in front of ANYONE, regardless of their sex. Communal changing areas are gross and need banning. Replace them all with individual cubicles that anyone can use. On the issue of toilets - I favour much of the same. At my university library, we had some new gender neutral toilets built (people misunderstand this a lot and think they're just for trans people or 'non binary weird people lul') and they were AMAZING. Basically, you went through a door, and behind it there were three separately locked individual toilets that each had a sink and drier in. They were the cleanest in the whole building. You had your own privacy, your own space and it was perfect. More of these need to build nationally.

And it sounds like your Uni library have it right. Thats exactly how it should be done, if we are moving to unisex. But with setups the way they are now, I reckon the huge majority of people would want to keep things sex segregated.

I also hate communal changing tbh. But many are fine with it, and they always tend to have one cubicle there for people like me who don't like changing in front of anyone. I won't queue for it though, like if I am going to have to wait 30 mins I will just bite the bullet and use the communal bit. I would/could not do this with a random bloke there. regardless of what he was wearing.

As for yours and other's concerns, while I totally understand them (as I said before), I do echo what TS said in that a lot of it (at face value at least) seems to be futile. Put it this way, if a predator wants to enter a female-only space, he is going to do so regardless of whatever is on the sign above the door. No law is going to increase or decrease the likelihood of this happening, IMO. What's more is...you're far more likely to be attacked in a domestic setting by someone you know than a stranger in a public place. That's not to minimise the issue or to say that it doesn't happen, I know it does - I've seen the articles, but I don't think any law is going to prevent this from happening, or even make it less likely. Also - by desegregating these areas, you are statistically likely to have MORE people in them, which actually DOES decrease the chances of anything happening. Here's an interesting question for you as a woman - if you were in a public toilet alone, late at night and with no else around, and a man walked in, would you feel more or less scared than if you were in a public toilet, late at night with ten other men and two other women (presuming it were a unisex toilet)? While I'm not a woman and cannot understand your concerns from your perspective, certainly from mine I would much rather be in any public place with more people - men or women. I don't feel comfortable walking down the street with only one or two people about. There's safety in numbers. [I've just realised I've asked this when you already addressed it in that paragraph, but I've typed it now lol]

Haha yeah, already done

I know you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know. I think the stat is that only 1/10 attacks are by strangers. Still a significant enough number for women to feel/be told that they have to modify their behavior to avoid those men though.

The prisons/refuges is a more difficult issue I'll concede, and so I won't address it here because this post will be far too long otherwise.

Not like you to make a long post Jack. Heh.

I don't think there is a way to address it at all besides, those places remain based on actual sex.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It actually isn't double standards at all though. Can white people comment on race issues? yes Can white people say they know how it feels to be discriminated against like a black person does? No. No one is telling men they can't have an opinion on this, what's being said is you can't tell women that what they feel isn't real and is masking something else (their inner transphobia) well you can tell us that if you want but don't be surprised when we disagree with you

We have to be very careful though how we frame our premises though. "Like a black person"... that's loaded actually, because it assumes all black folk share the same experiences. If we lump all ___ folk together, then it's very easy to lump all folk that fit certain categories together and generalize... which leads to premises like this... (don't worry, it's super short)

Youtube video

I don't experience the same things as other women for example without going into detail into my background. Much less white folk, as I was raised in a 99% minority area despite being white. My family breaks a fook ton of stereotypes in other ways too... which is why I prefer to see folk as individuals, not as being representative of entire groups. It exacerbates and enables racism and other anti-isms when we enable these fallacies...

I think TS--(referring back to the what is feminism thread)--he kind of got roped into a discussion about everything that is wrong with men... as if all men as a group are acting as a whole... I think when we are talking about activism and how to change the status quo, we should be targeting the culture, which is the more likely culprit... folk are obviously only referencing their personal experiences when talking about their views, they can't speak for any group... but we can all talk about how the culture effects us, man or woman. And I'd argue TS/men in general have to have a say if the culture in the end generally impacts all of us... so to speak.