[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

it doesn't go out of shot, one of the men is stood at the front of the shot with his chest right next to the camera, the ol' racist is off to the top right of the shot up a step a good 6ft away, the guy turns around and climbs the step moving towards him, he pushes him away and then he throws the punch. The old man is the initial verbal aggressor, and the initial physical aggressor. The attack was provoked but it was not by any stretch of the imagination self defense, he moved towards him with clear intent.

[edit to add] I personally don't think provokation is often a good reason for physical retaliation and it shows an alarming lack of self control. On top of that, physically attacking someone who is clearly far physically weaker than you are for any reason - again other than to stop an immediate threat to yourself of someone else - is morally abhorrent. That's regardless of whether or not that happens to be a good person.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

it doesn't go out of shot, one of the men is stood at the front of the shot with his chest right next to the camera, the ol' racist is off to the top right of the shot up a step a good 6ft away, the guy turns around and climbs the step moving towards him, he pushes him away and then he throws the punch. The old man is the initial verbal aggressor, and the initial physical aggressor. The attack was provoked but it was not by any stretch of the imagination self defense, he moved towards him with clear intent.

...well, you obviously have greater eyeballs than me, TS...because I couldn’t determine everything you say from the vid...but I guess that if it was always so clear, the justice system would be a lot easier and maybe not even always necessary...I did say ‘appear to pursue the physical’...because that’s how it appeared to be to me and if that was the case then ‘/self defence/reasonable force..’ etc would come into it...I guess we’ll have to wait to see...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have to ask something here Ammi, I'm afraid. If, in the context of school children, a child was racially abusing another child... would you then take no action if that child turned around and punched them in the face (hard enough to give them multiple contusions)?

Would you take no action if the other kid hit first?

Would you take no action, even if the kid being abusive was a known and persistent bully?

I'm hoping and assuming that the answer to all of those, is that physical violence is never the appropriate response. That defending yourself is OK if someone won't get off of you, for example, is OK but if someone hits you and runs away... you tell someone, you don't chase after them and hit them back.

And assuming all of those things (and I really do hope I'm right, that a teacher wouldn't ever justify children carrying out physical retaliation)..

WHY on earth would it be OK for grown adults to engage in unnecessary physical retaliation?

I'm not talking about empathy here; of course you might understand why a kid would hit back. I understand why the people on the bus were frustrated, upset, enraged and hit back. Empathising with why it happened is NOT the same thing as condoning it, and certainly not the same as encouraging it or advocating for it as an appropriate course of action.

Can we forgive these guys for being frustrated, hurt and lashing out? Absolutely... but should we be telling them (and others) that it was justified? In fact not even just justified - but the RIGHT thing to do?

I just can't imagine it.

I can't imagine that you'd be approached by a child saying that another child did something to them - even something awful - and the response would be "Oh you should have socked them one back, right in the side of the head, little Jimmy".

...you can ask, TS, obviously you can...but I’m not going to answer...because your thought processes are excluding something that I said early in the thread that I was considering alongside the hateful racial abuse...
....and something that some people on the bus had also said as we see../ has been reported also etc...I’ll leave a quote here...

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

[Ammi]

...I do think that this discussion has been such a lengthy and often quite heightened in emotion one etc...because it isn’t so black and white and there is much ‘grey’ with it..ideally, there would be no physical violence, obviously...but ideally also, there would be no such hateful prejudice still felt and voiced in 70 something years of life and life learning in someone in 2020...I also read in some reports that before the older guy had racially abused and called them monkeys and the N word, which can never be diminished or reduced with the label of ‘name calling’...that the younger guys had their hands/...or one of them had their hand on the holding pole to steady them as they ‘were standing room only‘ as it were...and the older guy had pushed the hand/hands off, which was the very first beginning of the leading up to../...incident...and the first ‘laying of hands on’, if it’s being reported correctly...I can’t imagine how it feels to ever be treated like that/to ever be treated in such a superior way as if you’re nothing at all...as if it was unpleasant in some way to physically be around you....on the whole, I don’t feel that violence is a ‘good answer’, but I do feel that sadly in some cases, it will become closer to an ‘inevitable’ or a likelihood and in the present day, much in society sadly seems to be getting closer and closer, rather than further and further as most of us would hope, from this type of abuse...and if and when that abuse happens, as with this incident... we have to consider in ‘judging’...well, we don’t have to but I personally do.. ...but then also what is the answer because I doubt there would ever be ‘the answer’ with someone who had lived so many years of life and still displayed such hatefulness...and in the judging of ‘applauding’ as it were...violence is never something that I personally would applaud but I think it is also a reaction to something quite hateful that sadly will be an inevitable or likelihood as well...


...as I’ve already said, I think...there is also very much ‘human’ to consider as well in judgement...and the psychology of human in reaction with this incident and in those moments...would possibly encompass also that what was provoking/abusing and physically pursuing right in front of them and what they were looking at etc...wasn’t an older man so much..it was hate...’pure hate attacking them verbally and possibly physically as well’...

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

Exactly, the boys were getting off the bus and get got up to pursue them still shouting abuse, why they had to get off when they were the ones being racially abused is beyond me but heyho, old white people can do what they want without repercussions apparently

[Crimson Dynamo]

we obviously dont see how it started but essentially when a bully attacks someone he only does so when he knows he wont get hurt, that is why they do it. If that old frail man had been a strapping 6 foot 4 30-year-old the aggressive attackers would have done nowt.

Its not about racism its about bullying imo

vile all around andf again an out of context video that is very one sided

where have we seen that before

[Liam-]

How did he ‘approach him with intent’ walking up to someone isn’t violence, the violent racist started the physical altercation, a violent racist doesn’t deserve sympathy if someone retaliates, sorry

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

How did he ‘approach him with intent’ walking up to someone isn’t violence, the violent racist started the physical altercation, a violent racist doesn’t deserve sympathy if someone retaliates, sorry

Him deserving sympathy =/= it being the right thing to do. I think he brought it on himself, I know he started the altercation, I think he should have had to answer (legally) for his actions. I don't think two large young men should have continued a physical altercation that they did not need to continue with someone smaller and frailer than them. How they felt is justifiable - I don't find their actions justifiable. He was not an active physical threat.

Moral judgement aside - I don't think it's a good look and if they'd caved in his head (which is actually quite feasible if a young fit guy is punching an old brittle skull full force) they'd achieve nothing other than getting themselves thrown in jail for a long time.

[Liam-]

If you’re ‘old and frail’ you shouldn’t be out abusing people and starting fights, not everyone has the ability to bite their tongue and not retaliate when they’re attacked and I don’t think they have to either, if you’re tough enough to throw a punch, don’t be surprised when you get something back, old or not

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

If you’re ‘old and frail’ you shouldn’t be out abusing people and starting fights, not everyone has the ability to bite their tongue and not retaliate when they’re attacked and I don’t think they have to either, if you’re tough enough to throw a punch, don’t be surprised when you get something back, old or not

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

I’m 25, not a teenager, my opinions aren’t less valid than yours because you’re middle aged

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I’m 25, not a teenager, my opinions aren’t less valid than yours because you’re middle aged

They're not more valid either, and my opinion and observation is that people - at least the ones with half a brain - get less inclined to violence and justifying unnecessary violence as they get older.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, really. Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do.

My opinion on this would have been very different when I was 25.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They're not more valid either, and my opinion and observation is that people - at least the ones with half a brain - get less inclined to violence and justifying unnecessary violence as they get older.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, really. Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do.

My opinion on this would have been very different when I was 25.

You as a white straight man have nothing to feel frustrated about though do you?

You just moralise to others who have direct experience of prejudice.

Remember you mentioned groupthink recently? You have been told that young people can't rationalise and you've applied it here.
However, you also know that psychologically our experiences shape us as people, that is counter to the 'growing up' or 'maturing brain' theory isn't it? and is personal to each individual.
Liams experiences as a gay man of prejudice might have more to do with his response than how old or younget he may be.

I find the suggestion that a man of 25 is still not seen as having a brain capable of rationale, and when does that begin to decline 40+? So you are only at optimum decision making capacity for 15yrs of your adult life?
How has the human race survived for so long on such limited efficacy?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

Then at these right wing get togethers in city centres why are the majority of the participants acting violent 40+?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Then at these right wing get togethers in city centres why are the majority of the participants acting violent 40+?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I find that younger people (not saying all do, or that no older people do ) are more inclined to hold that position.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do ..

I cover my bases Kizzy

Those people are not grown ups, and do not have half a brain between them.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I cover my bases Kizzy

Those people are not grown ups, and do not have half a brain between them.

Or...you've just disproved your own opinion.

Some young people have a certain response and some older people have a certain response then age is not the factor
You are also implying that intelligence is a factor, which imo Liam disproves because he advocates a certain way and he is very intelligent. So what's left? Life experience.

[Niamh.]

I wouldn't say it was justifiable of them to hit him however I can understand why they got that angry

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I wouldn't say it was justifiable of them to hit him however I can understand why they got that angry

...yeah, this exactly...’in a perfect world’...but the world is far from perfect ...and even if he felt those prejudices and continued to do so forever and ever..the older guy’s ‘wisdom of age’....should have never levelled that hateful abuse in the care of his own safety...



....(..I still can’t see clearly that it most definitely wasn’t open to the reasonable force’ thing...

[Ammi]

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as a whole, as such, he’s very anti violence from what I’ve seen of his thoughts...but more, that violence may inevitably happen because ‘all responses aren’t equal..’...and the older man in his wisdom of years should have known that...



...anyways, that all really...the vid isn’t clear enough for me tbh...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as such

He quite openly and explicitly has.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

He quite openly and explicitly has.

Yes 2nd post on this thread

Liam posted:
"Violent racist gets smacked up, as it should be"

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as a whole, as such, he’s very anti violence from what I’ve seen of his thoughts...but more, that violence may inevitably happen because ‘all responses aren’t equal..’...and the older man in his wisdom of years should have known that...



...anyways, that all really...the vid isn’t clear enough for me tbh...

Thank you Ammi, having words put in my mouth gets quite tiring, so does being told my views are less valid first because of my sexuality and now my age

Yet we’re told we should respect and acknowledge everyone else’s opinion as equal, it’s exhausting at times

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Thank you Ammi, having words put in my mouth gets quite tiring, so does being told my views are less valid first because of my sexuality and now my age



Yet we’re told we should respect and acknowledge everyone else’s opinion as equal, it’s exhausting at times

No one is putting words in your mouth, you've consistently advocated for violent retaliation throughout the thread. I'd gather the quotes but honestly there are so many I don't think that's even necessary.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Deserved

[Jigs]

Originally Posted by Fetch The Bolt Cutters

Deserved

Period