[MTVN]

Originally Posted by jaxie

And you don't think a surge to the far right in some countries politics has potential to cause conflict?

There is also a lot of dissent over the migrant crisis and the way Germany handled it and then back tracked.

It does but that's all the more reason to support the principles of the EU against these far-right movements in Europe that would destabilise the continent. There is a lot of resentment towards Germany and to the status quo in Europe, I agree with that, but lets not forget how far we have come since even a few decades ago. When the EEC was formed half of Europe was still living under the Iron Curtain and Germany itself was split in two. That's why to some extent it was always a political organisation because it was the latest attempt to try and heal the scars of post war Europe.

[kirklancaster]

KIZZY - the first article by John King which I posted, and the second article by him which you posted, says it ALL really if we are truthful.

This issue of the UK's membership of the EU transcends British domestic political parties and the decision we all have to make on the 23rd of June is the THE most vitaly important decision we will ever have to make in the past 50 years.

Genuine socialists say it, and HONEST capitalists who have no covert vested interests say it - WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE corrupt, money-draining shambles that is the EU if we are to survive as a country.

Your excellent article by King not only ANSWERS all those sneering but misguided 'Remain' supporters who unfairly label anyone who is genuinely concerned about the untenable levels of unscreened immigration to this tiny island as xenophobic or racist or 'Little Englanders', it also explains just why they are misguided.

It not only explains WHY it is perfectly alright to be Patriotic, but it also defines the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism - which is not alright.

"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."

The darling of the TRUE left - Owen Jones advocates Brexit and says that by Brexiting the left can reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.

Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart - both Brexiteers - are more honourable than a thousand Jeremy Corbyns and John McDonnells - because they are TRUE to their left wing socialist Tony Benn/Michael Foot principles.

A 56 per cent majority of 2015 Labour voters – seen as pivotal to the result – support the 'REMAIN' campaign whilst 62 per cent of Tory voters want 'OUT', which is WHY the despicable, self-serving, great deceiver David Cameron NEEDS the support of Labour voters to succeed in his plot to keep the UK in the EU.

How truly bitterly ironic will it be, if the majority of Tories - the perceived party of Business and Profits - vote to leave the corporatist, anti-democratic, anti-socialist, anti-proletariat EU, while Labour KEEP US IN?

I for one, will NEVER forgive the Labour Party should Labour votes enable Cameron to succeed.

Here is another excellent explanatory article by Brendan O'Neill - The Left Wing Editor of 'Spiked':

The strange death of left-wing Euroscepticism
l

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04...uroscepticism/

and another:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...u-british-left

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It does but that's all the more reason to support the principles of the EU against these far-right movements in Europe that would destabilise the continent. There is a lot of resentment towards Germany and to the status quo in Europe, I agree with that, but lets not forget how far we have come since even a few decades ago. When the EEC was formed half of Europe was still living under the Iron Curtain and Germany itself was split in two. That's why to some extent it was always a political organisation because it was the latest attempt to try and heal the scars of post war Europe.

I hate to bring this up but I don't see that the EU is necessarily tied to peace. You only have to look at who started the two world wars. So if we didn't have the EU are you saying Germany would try to invade? (again).

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Why is being outside the EU so unknown, there were thousands of years without it before 1973 and we managed to get along!

I think there is a lot of uncertainty over the EU. A lot of member countries are falling to the far right in elections because we aren't the only ones unhappy with the EU and being patronised by our politics and a lot of people don't feel they have anywhere else to go. The Greek debacle is far from over, there is another round in July. The Euro is a failure. And most worrying of all those forging ahead to ever closer union are either oblivious or simply don't give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

We do not have to accept any closer union however, that is part of the deal won by David Cameron.
Which he still,even from his own party, is not getting better credit for what he did in fact win.

Govts of all colours,in Countries come and go, as also do the officials in the EU.
That has gone on for all the time we have been in the Common Market and then the EU too.
It has not hindered or destroyed any success the UK has been able to make.
We will also never have to be part of the Euro, another reinforcement from David Cameron's negotiations.

Furthermore even if the EU did try to force some treaty changes or even changes to our conditions now.
We not only have a veto to that but also entrenched in UK law, passed by the Coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015, is that any treaty cannot now just be signed automatically by the PM of any UK govt.
It must be put for approval via referendum to the British Electorate.

All that is more than good enough for me at this time.

Also it is over 40 years since we were not tied to Europe in some economic way.
Also for around 15 years before we joined the EEC in 1973, we were constantly working to be in and near desperate to being in too for the massive market it would open up to us,a market we risk losing the unique deal we have to at present should we leave.

No other EU Nation has the unique deal we have now as a member, with our opt outs, no treaty changes if we don't want them, never joining the Euro and no changes without our agreement to any conditions we have.

Furthermore,remaining in, were the EU to even try to force anything we didn't want on us,which I feel as sure as I can be they will not.
They know full well that Could trigger another likely Uk referendum,so that is another insurance we have staying in.

Once out,even if we desperately wanted to, there will be no way back at all as to being in.
Just many other reasons why I support staying in now.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I hate to bring this up but I don't see that the EU is necessarily tied to peace. You only have to look at who started the two world wars. So if we didn't have the EU are you saying Germany would try to invade? (again).

No but I'm saying that the EU has helped create a more harmonious Europe. Its not all down to the EU of course - Nato deserves a lot of credit but Nato is primarily a military alliance whereas the EU brings countries together in other ways

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It does but that's all the more reason to support the principles of the EU against these far-right movements in Europe that would destabilise the continent. There is a lot of resentment towards Germany and to the status quo in Europe, I agree with that, but lets not forget how far we have come since even a few decades ago. When the EEC was formed half of Europe was still living under the Iron Curtain and Germany itself was split in two. That's why to some extent it was always a political organisation because it was the latest attempt to try and heal the scars of post war Europe.

Absolutely,I agree with all that.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

We do not have to accept any closer union however, that is part of the deal won by David Cameron.
Which he still,even from his own party, is not getting better credit for what he did in fact win.

Govts of all colours,in Countries come and go, as also do the officials in the EU.
That has gone on for all the time we have been in the Common Market and then the EU too.
It has not hindered or destroyed any success the UK has been able to make.
We will also never have to be part of the Euro, another reinforcement from David Cameron's negotiations.

Furthermore even if the EU did try to force some treaty changes or even changes to our conditions now.
We not only have a veto to that but also entrenched in UK law, passed by the Coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015, is that any treaty cannot now just be signed automatically by the PM of any UK govt.
It must be put for approval via referendum to the British Electorate.

All that is more than good enough for me at this time.

Also it is over 40 years since we were not tied to Europe in some economic way.
Also for around 15 years before we joined the EEC in 1973, we were constantly working to be in and near desperate to being in too for the massive market it would open up to us,a market we risk losing the unique deal we have to at present should we leave.

No other EU Nation has the unique deal we have now as a member, with our opt outs, no treaty changes if we don't want them, never joining the Euro and no changes without our agreement to any conditions we have.

Furthermore,remaining in, were the EU to even try to force anything we didn't want on us,which I feel as sure as I can be they will not.
They know full well that Could trigger another likely Uk referendum,so that is another insurance we have staying in.

Once out,even if we desperately wanted to, there will be no way back at all as to being in.
Just many other reasons why I support staying in now.

If we don't accept ever closer union do you really think they will pay us any attention or that we will have any say in anything? Think on.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

We do not have to accept any closer union however, that is part of the deal won by David Cameron.
Which he still,even from his own party, is not getting better credit for what he did in fact win.

Govts of all colours,in Countries come and go, as also do the officials in the EU.
That has gone on for all the time we have been in the Common Market and then the EU too.
It has not hindered or destroyed any success the UK has been able to make.
We will also never have to be part of the Euro, another reinforcement from David Cameron's negotiations.

Furthermore even if the EU did try to force some treaty changes or even changes to our conditions now.
We not only have a veto to that but also entrenched in UK law, passed by the Coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015, is that any treaty cannot now just be signed automatically by the PM of any UK govt.
It must be put for approval via referendum to the British Electorate.

All that is more than good enough for me at this time.

Also it is over 40 years since we were not tied to Europe in some economic way.
Also for around 15 years before we joined the EEC in 1973, we were constantly working to be in and near desperate to being in too for the massive market it would open up to us,a market we risk losing the unique deal we have to at present should we leave.

No other EU Nation has the unique deal we have now as a member, with our opt outs, no treaty changes if we don't want them, never joining the Euro and no changes without our agreement to any conditions we have.

Furthermore,remaining in, were the EU to even try to force anything we didn't want on us,which I feel as sure as I can be they will not.
They know full well that Could trigger another likely Uk referendum,so that is another insurance we have staying in.

Once out,even if we desperately wanted to, there will be no way back at all as to being in.
Just many other reasons why I support staying in now.

I'm not being funny Joey but you are living in cloud cookoo land.
Your refusal to answer simple questions posted to you by myself and others on here is astonishing. Your refusal to accept clear facts from the likes of the truth and kirk and others is such a blinkered view of what you are voting to remain in. Here is one simple FACT. The EU is NOT a growing market but a SHRINKING market. Since around 1980 It has gone from 30% down to 17% If you seriously want to ignore the facts then by all means go ahead and keep your head buried in the sand and vote to remain in this dwindling failed EU market.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

If we don't accept ever closer union do you really think they will pay us any attention or that we will have any say in anything? Think on.

They will have to pay us attention if we remain a member, it is in fact if we leave they need then pay no real or little attention to us at all.

If we stay we will get votes on all things we have had now over decades, if we leave we will likely get conditions, and not have a vote as to whether, and when, those conditions may be changed to trade.

The same say we have now inside the EU, none at all once out of it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They will have to pay us attention if we remain a member, it is in fact if we leave they need then pay no real or little attention to us at all.

If we stay we will get votes on all things we have had now over decades, if we leave we will likely get conditions, and not have a vote as to whether, and when, those conditions may be changed to trade.

The same say we have now inside the EU, none at all once out of it.

But they don't pay us any attention now. 70 laws we've objected to have been passed anyway.

And Cameron got little to nothing, definitely not what he asked for, just a few milk sops because they don't want to change the way things are, it's their vision.

Out of the EU we have every say over our own destiny.

[Johnnyuk123]

Another interesting FACT...We got it in writing from the EU very recently that we will not be asked to bailout anyone.
Written in stone it was. Then what happened???
The EU ripped that agreement up and told us to pay up to help bail out Greece or else. So all this veto talk is great and all that but just look at what happened with Greece. The UK had to hand over millions in cash. So veto's mean zilch to the corrupt EU.

[Brother Leon]

Remain.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I'm not being funny Joey but you are living in cloud cookoo land.
Your refusal to answer simple questions posted to you by myself and others on here is astonishing. Your refusal to accept clear facts from the likes of the truth and kirk and others is such a blinkered view of what you are voting to remain in. Here is one simple FACT. The EU is NOT a growing market but a SHRINKING market. Since around 1980 It has gone from 30% down to 17% If you seriously want to ignore the facts then by all means go ahead and keep your head buried in the sand and vote to remain in this dwindling failed EU market.

Oh but you are indeed just being funny and I would say over all the threads and posts on the EU, I have clearly outlined why I will be voting to remain, and have answered just about all questions put to me, certainly far more than any of the leave campaigners have answered as to the remain side, as to any substantiation and facts as to what they outline.

The sad fact is you will not accept any answer unless it agrees with your stance on the issue and the simple fact is I do not agree with you at all and likely never will.
So why you even bother reading my posts mystifies me frankly but even moreso why you respond to them.
With you having such a low and derisory opinion of myself.

I certainly do my very best not to respond to yours knowing well in advance the put down I would get from you and others.
If asked a question ,I will answer but as I said earlier,if it is not what you want to hear you override it and then put me down.
I do not and should not have to take that.

I have always done so and still do fully respect the position of those who have taken the decision to vote to leave, sadly however it seems some on leave cannot do the same vice versa.

You are though, and I am saying it loud and clear,just being funny and all you want is to go round and round in circles making petty tit for tat, which does the issue no genuine credit and is for me just a waste of time for me.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

But they don't pay us any attention now. 70 laws we've objected to have been passed anyway.

And Cameron got little to nothing, definitely not what he asked for, just a few milk sops because they don't want to change the way things are, it's their vision.

Out of the EU we have every say over our own destiny.

That is your position, I respect that but don't agree with it.

In any organisation we will not always get what we want or like,of course we will be outvoted on many things but we will win many things as well.

I don't think you are fair to say Cameron got little to nothing,the guarantee of no further political ties for the UK is a substantial gain.
The change to migrant workers not being able to access benefits for 4 years,another good gain.

While it is true he asked for little, he got in my view, more than I expected even from what he asked for.
I applaud that and I see him as one Politician now that has the EUs ear and he could even negotiate more as time goes on.

In fact, after he stands down as PM,I would have him if he wanted it, in some EU role to do just that and I think he would have more than a fair chance of delivering more too.

AS a marketing Nation, it is our economy that will be the main part of determining our destiny,we have a good destiny in place now with how we are with EU membership.

We have no idea what will really happen to the economy out of the EU,in my opinion, and therefore I, speaking only for myself,can have no confidence of the UKs destiny if out, without support and substantiation of that support from the EU as to a trading deal and the rest of the World Nations opinions too.

Neither of which the leave campaign has.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Oh but you are indeed just being funny and I would say over all the threads and posts on the EU, I have clearly outlined why I will be voting to remain, and have answered just about all questions put to me, certainly far more than any of the leave campaigners have answered as to remains as to any substantiation and facts as to what they outline.

The sad fact is you will not accept any answer unless it agrees with your stance on the issue and the simple fact is I do not agree with you at all and likely never will.
So why you even bother reading my posts mystifies me frankly but even moreso why you respond to them.
With you having such a low and derisory opinion of myself.

I certainly do my very best not to respond to yours knowing well in advance the put down I would get from you and others.
If asked a question ,I will answer but as I said earlier,if it is not what you want to hear you override it and then put me down.
I do not and should not have to take that.

I have always done so and still do fully respect the position of those who have taken the decision to vote to leave, sadly however it seems some on leave cannot do the same vice versa.

You are though, and I am saying it loud and clear,just being funny and all you want is to go round and round in circles making petty tit for tat, which neither does the issue any credit and is for me just a waste of time for me.

I asked you very simple questions ages ago Joey and you didn't answer them so you saying you do answer questions it is selective on your part. You didn't answer my questions Joey.
I'll post them again below so if you could please answer them both it would be greatly appreciated.

1: How much lower will immigration numbers be if we remain in the EU?
2: If we remain in the EU will the UK's cash contribution decrease or increase?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I asked you very simple question ages ago Joey and you didn't answer them so you saying you do answer questions it is selective on your part. You didn't answer my questions Joey.
I'll post them again below so if you could please answer them both it would be greatly appreciated.

1: How much lower will immigration numbers be if we remain in the EU?
2: If we remain in the EU will the UK's cash contribution decrease or increase?

1. If we leave there will I believe be a rush to get here before we do so, however I think te figures will not decrease that much nor do I think they will after we leave.
Why because I cannot see a responsible UK govt. leaving the single market.
I also think and believe no way at all will it be that all the other 27 Nations of the EU, will give the UK a deal that does not include the free movement still of EU citizens.
So I do not think we will be able to do anything about the numbers except the numbers we can now, from non EU Countries.

2. The contribution that is around Ł175 million a week now, not the Ł350million lie 'leave' state now, I largely expect to in reality stay the same.
You may want to join in the other Conservatives who are calling Cameron a liar on this but he has stated that our contribution cannot now be changed without our agreement.
So I do not think in reality the EU will even attempt it, we may be asked to help with more contributions, however I take his word that if a UK govts does not want to, then it will not have to.
If I was a betting man, I would say I;d expect an increase at some time with the UK govts agreement,but I doubt anything of note.

Now you answer me this, where in any shape or form has the EU stated that the leave sides claim of us leaving the EU will mean we can stop EU free movement of its citizen and still get a trading deal.
Name one EU nation or any of the RU hierarchy that has said that is even possible never mind probable.
Are you guaranteeing our govt,will definitely insist on no free movement of EU citizens.
They are not bound to do so by this referendum, which is only about EU membership not the finer detail.

Also, tell me one Nation out of the EU, who is a friend and/or ally of the UK, that has jumped up and said, if the UK leaves the EU, they will really step up to the mark, give us much bigger and better trading deals with them.

Even from the likes of China,India, Australia,and the USA comes te advice that we should stay in the EU, for us.
So just what 'real' deals can you substantiate for your argument on that.

Just one Nation form either point because I know of not one.

You know what, why on earth should I be cross examined by you anyway, it is a bit rich when all the leave side arguments are ifs, maybe's and don't knows.
Whereas, I know what we have with being a member of the EU, as does just a bout everyone committed on the leave and remain sides know what the deals is as members of the EU anyway.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is your position, I respect that but don't agree with it.

In any organisation we will not always get what we want or like,of course we will be outvoted on many things but we will win many things as well.

I don't think you are fair to say Cameron got little to nothing,the guarantee of no further political ties for the UK is a substantial gain.
The change to migrant workers not being able to access benefits for 4 years,another good gain.

While it is true he asked for little, he got in my view, more than I expected even from what he asked for.
I applaud that and I see him as one Politician now that has the EUs ear and he could even negotiate more as time goes on.

In fact, after he stands down as PM,I would have him if he wanted it, in some EU role to do just that and I think he would have more than a fair chance of delivering more too.

AS a marketing Nation, it is our economy that will be the main part of determining our destiny,we have a good destiny in place now with how we are with EU membership.

We have no idea what will really happen to the economy out of the EU,in my opinion, and therefore I speaking only for myself,can have no confidence of the UKs destiny if out, without support and substantiation of that support from the EU as to a trading deal and the rest of the World Nations opinions too.

Neither of which the elave campaign has.

You clearly feel as determined in your views as I am and I can respect that but I think if we stay you are going to be very disappointed and I am very much afraid we won't get the chance to leave again any time soon. We could all trip along and wait and see if we got a referendum on this every time the government changed but it's just not going to happen and based on how things have gone before I very much fear we are stuffed if we stay.

As to guarantees there is no way Germany is not going to trade with a country that imports most of its car exports. It's actually crazy to think they would suddenly not want to trade with us. I can't imagine where that idea has even come from. The EU aside there is a whole wide world and commonwealth out there we have ties with and the EU stifles our trade with them.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

1. If we leave there will I believe be a rush to get here before we do so, however I think te figures will not decrease that much nor do I think they will after we leave.
Why because I cannot see a responsible UK govt. leaving the single market.
I also think and believe no way at all will it be that all the other 27 Nations of the EU, will give the UK a deal that does not include the free movement still of EU citizens.
So I do not think we will be able to do anything about the numbers except the numbers we can now, from non EU Countries.

2. The contribution that is around Ł175 million a week now, not the Ł350million lie 'leave' state now, I largely expect to in reality stay the same.
You may want to join in the other Conservatives who are calling Cameron a liar on this but he has stated that our contribution cannot now be changed without our agreement.
So I do not think in reality the EU will even attempt it, we may be asked to help with more contributions, however I take his word that if a UK govts does not want to, then it will not have to.
If I was a betting man, I would say I;d expect an increase at some time with the UK govts agreement,but I doubt anything of note.

Now you answer me this, where in any shape or form has the EU stated that the leave sides claim of us leaving the EU will mean we can stop EU free movement of its citizen and still get a trading deal.
Name one EU nation or any of the RU hierarchy that has said that is even possible never mind probable.
Are you guaranteeing our govt,will definitely insist on no free movement of EU citizens.
They are not bound to do so by this referendum, which is only about EU membership not the finer detail.

Also, tell me one Nation out of the EU, who is a friend and/or ally of the UK, that has jumped up and said, if the UK leaves the EU, they will really step up to the mark, give us much bigger and better trading deals with them.

Even from the likes of China,India, Australia,and the USA comes te advice that we should stay in the EU, for us.
So just what 'real' deals can you substantiate for your argument on that.

Just one Nation form either point because I know of not one.

You know what, why on earth should I be cross examined by you anyway, it is a bit rich when all the leave side arguments are ifs, maybe's and don't knows.
Whereas, I know what we have with being a member of the EU, as does just a bout everyone committed on the leave and remain sides know what the deals is as members of the EU anyway.

What you have just posted above are also if's and buts too Joey because the reality of the situation of IN or OUT is that no one actually knows for certain. Not me or you. No one but the un elected presidents of the EU who will decide for me and for you. From reading your posts i take it you are pro democracy. The EU is anti democracy. So i hope you understand just what you are giving up. You mentioned gambling, if you were to bet etc... You have also clearly stated in other posts that you are not willing to gamble on this issue so i'm confused now because to me voting to remain IN the EU is a massive gamble. Democracy is something you yourself cherish. That will be gone if the vote to remain wins on the 23rd of June. Also throughout this whole campaign you have asked quite rightly for assurances from those wanting to leave the EU. It isn't a one way street Joey i too could ask you for assurances on why we should remain within the EU.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You clearly feel as determined in your views as I am and I can respect that but I think if we stay you are going to be very disappointed and I am very much afraid we won't get the chance to leave again any time soon. We could all trip along and wait and see if we got a referendum on this every time the government changed but it's just not going to happen and based on how things have gone before I very much fear we are stuffed if we stay.

As to guarantees there is no way Germany is not going to trade with a country that imports most of its car exports. It's actually crazy to think they would suddenly not want to trade with us. I can't imagine where that idea has even come from. The EU aside there is a whole wide world and commonwealth out there we have ties with and the EU stifles our trade with them.

However that goes both ways and I sort of wish I could have agreed with you but I just do not believe out, we know the real risks enough to be confident the UK will not do far worse.

Germany is, as is Spain now too indicating rather strongly that any trading deals with the EU,the free movement of EU citizens has to be the main issue.

I believe we will get a trading deal over 2 to3 years with the EU but I feel as sure as I can be, that our govts negotiators will have to still accept the free movement of EU citizens.
I also think the UK govt, whatever it is at the time, will in the end accept that free movement still,in order to get the best deal possible.

In any event, in my view,If the UK population still demands German cars, we will have to import them,whatever extra costs there may be imposed on us to do so.

[Johnnyuk123]

I don't know why people assume that if the UK leaves the EU we will somehow have to go cap in hand to them begging for trade deals. lol This is ludicrous. It is a two way street. The EU needs the UK more than we need them. If they demand free movement we say no and trade with the rest of the world instead unrestricted by EU regulations.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I asked you very simple questions ages ago Joey and you didn't answer them so you saying you do answer questions it is selective on your part. You didn't answer my questions Joey.
I'll post them again below so if you could please answer them both it would be greatly appreciated.

1: How much lower will immigration numbers be if we remain in the EU?
2: If we remain in the EU will the UK's cash contribution decrease or increase?

The answers to those questions are quite simple.

Not everyone gives a **** about immigration levels.

And the amount of money we'd save if we left the EU is irrelevant in the hands of this government, it's not as if they're going to spend it on anything worthwhile is it? Like I don't know...building more housing, or improving the NHS or our education system. So it's a moot point, it'll be money down the drain for the majority of the electorate.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The answers to those questions are quite simple.

Not everyone gives a **** about immigration levels.

And the amount of money we'd save if we left the EU is irrelevant in the hands of this government, it's not as if they're going to spend it on anything worthwhile is it? Like I don't know...building more housing, or improving the NHS or our education system. So it's a moot point, it'll be money down the drain for the majority of the electorate.

Hi Jack.
Your right in many respects for sure Jack but in spite of that at least the money will be going down a UK drain and will be accounted for regardless of how it has been spent.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

What you have just posted above are also if's and buts too Joey because the reality of the situation of IN or OUT is that no one actually knows for certain. Not me or you. No one but the un elected presidents of the EU who will decide for me and for you. From reading your posts i take it you are pro democracy. The EU is anti democracy. So i hope you understand just what you are giving up. You mentioned gambling, if you were to bet etc... You have also clearly stated in other posts that you are not willing to gamble on this issue so i'm confused now because to me voting to remain IN the EU is a massive gamble. Democracy is something you yourself cherish. That will be gone if the vote to remain wins on the 23rd of June. Also throughout this whole campaign you have asked quite rightly for assurances from those wanting to leave the EU. It isn't a one way street Joey i too could ask you for assurances on why we should remain within the EU.

I have answered that.

We are in the EU, we know what it is like we know what is likely to come, we have decades of experience of being in the EU, of course we have a much better and clearer picture of what in looks like and is likely to be.

There are always ifs and maybes, there have been many over our decades in the EU but we have come through them, in the EU and still prospered as a Nation a successful economy and Worlds 5th biggest.

So that is the answer of remain, it is all remain ever had to do,point out all we have achieved, done and worked through and dealt with while in the EU for decades.

It was always for the leave side to get out there and substantiate any claim it made that things could be better or even the same.
That they have not done, they have no support and real substantiation as to their claims from any major Nations or anyone we will even need to deal with more, if out.

the experience, the facts and the example of what we have done and how things are as a member of the EU for decades is there for all to see.
Our continued success and status,there for all to see.

It is for the leave side to show fully with full facts that we can do the same for sure or even better if out.

You are looking at all those decades of experience and example of the UK being in the EU and you have decided you want out.
I have done the same and think the opposite I want to stay in from that example and experience of being in the EU, I have witnessed.

You show me with facts that are substantiated that our success and status will not threatened, or downgraded any way,if we leave.
Also show me the facts from anywhere that says for sure, we will not have to accept free movement of EU citizens in the end to get a trading deal with the EU.
Then you are likely to have an argument backed up more.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I have answered that.

We are in the EU, we know what it is like we know what is likely to come, we have decades of experience of being in the EU, of course we have a much better and clearer picture of what in looks like and is likely to be.

There are always ifs and maybes, there have been many over our decades in the EU but we have come through them, in the EU and still prospered as a Nation a successful economy and Worlds 5th biggest.

So that is the answer of remain, it is all remain ever had to do,point out all we have achieved, done and worked through and dealt with while in the EU for decades.

It was always for the leave side to get out there and substantiate any claim it made that things could be better or even the same.
That they have not done, they have no support and real substantiation as to their claims from any major Nations or anyone we will even need to deal with more, if out.

the experience, the facts and the example of what we have done and how things are as a member of the EU for decades is there for all to see.
Our continued success and status,there for all to see.

It is for the leave side to show fully with full facts that we can do the same for sure or even better if out.

You are looking at all those decades of experience and example of the UK being in the EU and you have decided you want out.
I have done the same and think the opposite I want to stay in from that example and experience of being in the EU, I have witnessed.

You show me with facts that are substantiated that our success and status will not threatened, or downgraded any way,if we leave.
Also show me the facts from anywhere that says for sure, we will not have to accept free movement of EU citizens in the end to get a trading deal with the EU.
Then you are likely to have an argument backed up more.

For some reason you think that the UK needs the EU trade deals to survive. The UK needs it's hand held by the EU or we will just vanish from the face of the earth. There is a whole new world out there Joey with new deals to be made that are currently not allowed under EU rules. The EU is small fry in a very large pond. It stops the UK from trading with other countries outside of the EU. You seriously believe that the UK as the 5th largest economy is all down to the help of being in the EU? Seriously? The EU economy like i said before... in 1980 it was at 30%, today it is just under 17% and getting worse and you want to vote for that?

[Johnnyuk123]

Joey there are 12 days to go before the vote. My vote will cancel out your vote and visa versa so why not just chill out on this whole issue and just let the rest of the people in the UK decide. No need to be knocking on doors in the hope that you are gonna change someones mind. Remember your mind can't be changed on this issue as can't mine and i am certain many people have already made their minds up on this issue so there's too cannot be changed so you knocking on their door is only gonna annoy them.