[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I don’t see how any trans person ...(...male to female..)...would feel it in any way a ‘privilege’ to have been born male and to have lived part of their life as male...

Male socialisation.

It's most likely one of the biggest causes of what gets called the "pay gap", as men's socialisation gives them the extra confidence to chase that promotion or ask for that payrise, while societal expectations mean men are more likely to spend more time working.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..
and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.
Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and that quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!

...I don’t see it as saying that, though...it’s more concluding that ‘the two sides’ need to be both understood and protected, which isn’t appearing to happening because it’s less ‘conversations being had’ and more ‘war zone’ vibe...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..be complicit (and even enthusiastic) in the erasure of their current rights tbh. I find it even more unreasonable to make out its feminists who are in the wrong and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.

NOT saying you are saying this ammi, as sometimes my posts come across wrongly. I am talking about the 'be inclusive' article. The second one, by a transwoman..at least recognizes some issues. The first is just handwaving 'nothing to see here, feminists should be kind' to me.

Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and IMO quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!

...bib...?...ok, I guess that sometimes the same words are said or in this case, read...but those same words aren’t being heard in the same way ...and as we’re not ‘hearing the same thing’, I’ll leave it that maybe that wasn’t a good article to quote...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I don’t see how any trans person ...(...male to female..)...would feel it in any way a ‘privilege’ to have been born male and to have lived part of their life as male...for many it would have meant extreme unhappiness and not feeling any ‘fit’...how could that in any way be thought to be a privileged life....(...obviously exclusive of any specific advantages in competitive sports, which is obviously a huge thing to be addressed and conversations to be had...)...

See this is true of transsexual people. People who feel dysphoria at their physical reality and do whatever possible to alleviate said dysphoria. Issue is, this goes WAY beyond that today. Its the 'beyond' thats causing the current problems. Without going into essays, my issue has NEVER been genuine transsexual people. Its the 'other' who have basically latched onto the whole thing as..seemingly a way to crap all over women, that are causing the issues, as the second group are being lumped in with the first group as 'disadvantaged' when really, thats far from the truth. The first group are absolutely disadvantaged and deserve empathy and understanding tbh. The second group..are the ones causing the huge majority of issues now. Feminists tend to push back against the second group, not transsexual people. Infact, from what I have seen, transsexual people seem t be against the second group as much as many feminists are..

The wants (not needs) of the second group are made out to be things that would benefit the first group. When in reality, they wouldn't, and the 'war' is infact making things MUCH worse for the first group (aswell as for women), but the second group don't care..

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...bib...?...ok, I guess that sometimes the same words are said or in this case, read...but those same words aren’t being heard in the same way ...and as we’re not ‘hearing the same thing’, I’ll leave it that maybe that wasn’t a good article to quote...

Thats exactly it I think

[Cherie]

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

Quite.

But this is continually glossed over, and outright denied as a possibility, or something that should be worried about, despite many/most women (and many men too!) knowing its not just a possibility, its a definite if the potential is there. I mean, there are some who will still claim 'that will never happen' when you bring up people abusing it,despite there currently being..well examples of it having happened. Its just such nonsense at times.

It just sometimes feels like constant gaslighting. The denial that bad men exist, if they do exist they are too few in number to care about, and even if a bad man gets you, it doesnt matter as the law can deal with them, even though the law does **** all to most bad men.

Which did make me slightly, militant in such discussions in the past, though that helps noone really. I self edit to a ridiculous degree on this, both to try and not use language that might offend (though these days, even saying women is offensive) and to try and not come across as..harshly as I might otherwise. These days am used to talking in..well feminist spaces, rather than 'in the general public. so tend to use a lot of shorthand for stuff, and assume everyone knows the stuff I am talking about..and where I am coming from too. so need to edit that out also!

I am aware that sometimes I may also come across as maybe a bit..man hating too. Though I swear I do not hate men. I just am very very aware of how many bad men are out there. And honestly, sometimes I wish I wasn't as aware, life would sure be simpler.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

I agree with this post cherie, it's just so exhausting bothering about what other people get up to.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. It's a tough daily struggle.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. It's a tough daily struggle.

I do get this point, and agree some use it that way.

I feel sometimes feminists are written off with these people though for using examples of 'obvious conclusions' that they warned of(ie abusive men who claim to be trans, NOT transpeople) as..well we said it would happen, here is an example. And another. And another. And another. After being told it would NEVER HAPPEN and that to even consider it happening was manhating.

I think theres a world of difference between 'look, here is an example of what we said, and why that example slipped through the net so to speak' and 'look, this one transperson doing this means all are transpeople are bad!!!'

Though the difference is often..ignored. And made out to be the same thing. Sometimes purposely in honesty, though not always. Not sure if am explaining that right though..

Nuance.

[Jessica.]

Loads of women are predators and molesters but most people will be abused by someone they know personally, the whole abusive man dressed as a woman predator thing is almost unheard of compared to cis presenting abusers, I don't see it as an argument.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. It's a tough daily struggle.

Yes it can be a struggle for many including women so don't write off our struggles, its not a competition, some straight men are struggling as well, labelling people as big terfs or whatever is not the way to end struggles, its just creates tension, animosity and more struggle

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Loads of women are predators and molesters but most people will be abused by someone they know personally, the whole abusive man dressed as a woman predator thing is almost unheard of compared to cis presenting abusers, I don't see it as an argument.

Not in this context, for instance transmen in sport, they are not going to worry men born as men if they compete against them in most physical sports now are they?

there aren't many (if any) refuges for abused men?

[Vicky.]

But women abuse too type arguments..just don't work. Yeah, some women do. That doesn't mean we remove safeguards that stop abuse from men though. Thats just..nonsense. And a rather dangerous way to think

Yes more people will be abused by someone they know. This does not mean we make stranger attacks easier.

I also challenge 'loads of women' in sexual assault/rape type situations.The risk of a female being dodgy is.. minuscule, in comparison to a male. Not non existant. But..much less likely.


That said^, it also doesn't mean we should leave transwomen at the mercy of men either. But the solutions, simply cannot just place women at risk. There are solutions that help transwomen while still safeguarding women. Yet, such solutions are bigoted to even try to find. Why is this?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

there aren't many (if any) refuges for abused men?

There have been, but demand is not as high so they tend to fold. Theres a fair few mixed sex refuges though. Not sure if male only ones exist now. Refuges ar very much supply and demand.

Bu the mixed sex ones are not 'the problem'. The 'female only' ones are the bigoted ones, and are as such relentlessly targeted. As theres no conceivable situation where a female might need to be surrounded by female people, where even seeing a male person could trigger a fear response.

(Search vancouver rape relief for a very current example of this targetting. Despite 3 (? something like that, possibly more) other rape crisis centres in the area being mixed sex, one female only one existing was deemed a problem. And has had nonestop abuse since, including defunding for refusing to admit male bodied people, or accept male people as STAFF. Abuse includes dead rats nailed to the door. True story) (The staff issue is here, summarized anyway - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimber...pe_Relief_case Presented without comment.)

Time to leave again now anyway. Threads come the full circle once 'but women abuse too' is trotted out in comparison to the 98% of sex attacks by males. But to compare female abusers to males, and think its anywhere near the same league, is pure fantasy.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't think most women would mind if a man brought his daughter into the womens toilets.

But yeah individual cubicles is obviously the best solution but agree with LT that space and money would be the biggest obstacle there

But Niamh how many dad's would go into a woman's toilet with his child , I've never seen it happen. They feel out of place and awkward about it as they don't want to offend .

And we all know if this was about a trans man being able to use male toilets , I doubt they'd be a big fuss .

And some women cross boundaries and go into men's toilet's , I remember seeing a nightclub documentary about toilet attendants and she ignored him when he told her she shouldn't be in there .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

But Niamh how many dad's would go into a woman's toilet with his child , I've never seen it happen. They feel out of place and awkward about it as they don't want to offend .



And we all know if this was about a trans man being able to use male toilets , I doubt they'd be a big fuss .



And some women cross boundaries and go into men's toilet's , I remember seeing a nightclub documentary about toilet attendants and she ignored him when he told her she shouldn't be in there .

OK? I'm not sure what any of that really has to do with the debate either way

Sorry just your point about transmen though, generally speaking women are not much of a threat to men, this is why women's spaces are more focused on than mens in this debate

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

OK? I'm not sure what any of that really has to do with the debate either way

I was just replying to what you said , it's still on topic . The point I was making is people will always feel more uncomfortable when it comes to women's spaces and female toilets, more so than male spaces and men's toilets .

There was a trans woman prisoner who still got sent to a male prison despite everything.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I was just replying to what you said , it's still on topic . The point I was making is people will always feel more uncomfortable when it comes to women's spaces and female toilets, more so than male spaces and men's toilets .

There was a trans woman prisoner who still got sent to a male prison despite everything.

Of course they will because unfortunately men have always been more of a threat to women than the other way round.

Yes there was a similar case in Ireland, its madness

[Toy Soldier]

I'm sorry but the vast, vast majority of physical abusers are male... Like it's not even comparable. Everyone should be aware of that, it doesn't just affect women... It's men abusing women, men abusing transwomen, men in gay relationships abusing other men... It just... Is.

That's not to say that women can't be abusive or that men can't experience abuse but the vast majority of that abuse is of a psychological/coercive nature and there's no real physical threat.

And that's not even saying that one is necessarily "worse" than the other; psychological abuse can be devastating.

HOWEVER, one requires literal safe physical spaces and one requires purely emotional/practical intervention so it's not really part of the discussion. When abusive men come after their partners for leaving, those partners all too often end up raped, assaulted, or dead. It's offensive to make it a direct comparison to be honest.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Loads of women are predators and molesters but most people will be abused by someone they know personally, the whole abusive man dressed as a woman predator thing is almost unheard of compared to cis presenting abusers, I don't see it as an argument.

Nobody's talking about trans abusers. They're talking about abusers taking advantage of loopholes. Cis men fully included in that.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sorry but the vast, vast majority of physical abusers are male... Like it's not even comparable. Everyone should be aware of that, it doesn't just affect women... It's men abusing women, men abusing transwomen, men in gay relationships abusing other men... It just... Is.

That's not to say that women can't be abusive or that men can't experience abuse but the vast majority of that abuse is of a psychological/coercive nature and there's no real physical threat.

And that's not even saying that one is necessarily "worse" than the other; psychological abuse can be devastating.

HOWEVER, one requires literal safe physical spaces and one requires purely emotional/practical intervention so it's not really part of the discussion. When abusive men come after their partners for leaving, those partners all too often end up raped, assaulted, or dead. It's offensive to make it a direct comparison to be honest.

That's why I think more private cubicles is the way forward like with disable toilets, but I don't think many places will do that.

Gyms definitely won't , they'll always have men's & women's changing rooms. So people will always feel uncomfortable .

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

That's why I think more private cubicles is the way forward like with disable toilets, but I don't think many places will do that.

Gyms definitely won't , they'll always have men's & women's changing rooms. So people will always feel uncomfortable .

Well of course changing room should be separated by biological sex. A male has no place in a women's changing room, unless he's mopping the floors out of hours.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But women abuse too type arguments..just don't work. Yeah, some women do. That doesn't mean we remove safeguards that stop abuse from men though. Thats just..nonsense. And a rather dangerous way to think

So why should we remove safeguards for trans people because there are abusive cis men

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Elliot

So why should we remove safeguards for trans people because there are abusive cis men

No-one's said such safeguards should be removed. But sacrificing sex-based safeguards for gender identity essentially removes safeguards for women.