[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It is their opinion to believe someone is racist but is not necessarily a proven fact that gives them the right to verbally abuse them by publicly calling them racist. It comes down to abuse in exactly the same way.

How often do you think you have been called a racist on this website?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It is their opinion to believe someone is racist but is not necessarily a proven fact that gives them the right to verbally abuse them by publicly calling them racist. It comes down to abuse in exactly the same way.

If it's in response to actual racist abuse then it being their opinion they're not racist means diddly squat too.

Murderers on trial plead not guilty all the time.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It is their opinion to believe someone is racist but is not necessarily a proven fact that gives them the right to verbally abuse them by publicly calling them racist. It comes down to abuse in exactly the same way.

I wouldn't call racist an insult, it's an accusation and one that's easily dispelled if it's not true. It does feel a bit rich though as you tend to bandy out phrases such as 'Leftie' 'Remoaner' and other terms for people that don't share your opinions yet you oppose people calling out others as racist. If you consider the latter an insult then does that mean you regularly insult other members too?

As I said when transphobia was a talking point a few weeks back, I don't consider someone saying 'you are transphobic (or in this case, racist) and here's why I think that' to be an insult. That is someone arguing their point. If someone turned around and said 'I think ____ is a transphobic/racist prick' then that is verbal abuse.

I can't consider the accusation of racism or any other forms of bigotry an insult in itself, especially if the accusation is explained fully in a sensible way.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's hard to argue with any of that. Thanks for sharing Dezzy... I totally get where you're coming from.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I wouldn't call racist an insult, it's an accusation and one that's easily dispelled if it's not true. It does feel a bit rich though as you tend to bandy out phrases such as 'Leftie' 'Remoaner' and other terms for people that don't share your opinions yet you oppose people calling out others as racist. If you consider the latter an insult then does that mean you regularly insult other members too?

As I said when transphobia was a talking point a few weeks back, I don't consider someone saying 'you are transphobic (or in this case, racist) and here's why I think that' to be an insult. That is someone arguing their point. If someone turned around and said 'I think ____ is a transphobic/racist prick' then that is verbal abuse.

I can't consider the accusation of racism or any other forms of bigotry an insult in itself, especially if the accusation is explained fully in a sensible way.

I agree again, if a name is levelled at you and an explanation given and you are given the opportunity to disprove that label, it is not insulting and goes back to the freedom of speech that we are all afforded. If there is no chance of a reasoned discussion and it is used as a shut down, then it becomes insulting. I believe the only way forward is people discussing uncomfortable topics and then these being debated in a adult manner - not just you called me this so I will call you that etc etc.

I do believe this country i far more tolerant now and will only continue to improve as education and better protection laws develop BUT we still have a long way to go to total tolerance of all

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm still not entirely convinced that I know where I stand on it. Like can you be entitled to hate an entire group of people? Does he have that 'right'? I know it cant be policed, but is it really within your entitlement to hate a group of others?

But you're lumping the thought itself in with any action that might be taken based on that thought. Taking direct action motivated by hate of an entire group should never be accepted. Openly directing verbal hate at an entire group is "debatable" (in that it can logically be debated, debate is possible...)

The actual thought attitude itself, though, doesn't logically fall under the banner of rights or entitlements. It has nothing to do with either... It makes no logical sense to try to apply restrictions on inner thought. You could say "no one is entitled to think racist things!" but it's literally not going to stop anyone from thinking racist things... They don't choose to indulge in thinking racist things. They just DO think them. It's like saying to an amputee "no one is entitled to only have one arm" and expecting them to sprout a new one.


So like I said I don't think it's really open to debate whether or not active discrimination, or violent hatred (which would include directed abusive language and aggression, not just physical assault) is ever acceptable. Any civilised person would not accept that behaviour. But also, people's inner thoughts are also not open to debate or possible to restrict. It's just not a thing.

So that leaves the debatable part as simple discussion; are people "entitled" to express those inner thoughts verbally in a calm manner during a debate or discussion. That's the only question and it really comes down to personal preference and again... I would far rather hear those views and form an opinion of the person holding those views accordingly, than have everyone suppress and pretend based on what's "allowed".

I have experienced a quite vivid realnworld example of this. An older customer, who I had liked, on a "bad day" started spouting some really vile opinions about pretty much everything. Race came into it, homosexuality came into it, just a full on rant... Punctuated with "but you're not allowed to say these things any more." Quite clearly demonstrating that he always THINKS these things, he just doesn't say them. This was a customer that I honestly feel like I was "tricked" into thinking was a solid, decent guy... but who is clearly just repressing a whole heap of toxic nonsense. I would rather have known from the start. Surely most people would rather know? My idea of this individual was completely and utterly false.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Great post Ammi. I think the key is being able to discuss and debate and hope that people will learn to think differently. Just calling people a name for their views is pointless and is as bad as the view in the first place.

If you mean just screaming "YOU ARE A RACIST I WILL NO LONGER DISCUSS THIS" then sure. But that's not the same as saying "In my opinion, what you have said here is racism because ______". People are quick to take the latter as "name calling" when it's nothing of the sort.

When IS it acceptable to call something out as racism? If the answer is "never", then this is completely stifling to any open and honest discussion, and just as much a shut-down as name calling.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

Great response.

I agree with this.

[JerseyWins]

They kind of are entitled to it but I'll say "sometimes" because their thoughts/opinions/beliefs can still turn into verbal abuse in the same token. But other than that or unless it involves physical abuse obviously, they're entitled to their opinion even if it's wrong.

Basically if they think it but don't act on it to be unfair or cruel to others, they're entitled to what they think and express but they will get the consequences because society has changed whether they like it or not.

[bots]

let's for a moment imagine a world where Donald T didn't have access to twitter, where all directives came from the whitehouse after being sanitised. We would have no idea what a crazy loop Trump is. That's the type of thing that can happen when people are not allowed to express themselves.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then try to deny someone else from employing their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

Both of these said what I would answer but much more eloquently than I would put it^

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I wouldn't call racist an insult, it's an accusation and one that's easily dispelled if it's not true. It does feel a bit rich though as you tend to bandy out phrases such as 'Leftie' 'Remoaner' and other terms for people that don't share your opinions yet you oppose people calling out others as racist. If you consider the latter an insult then does that mean you regularly insult other members too?

As I said when transphobia was a talking point a few weeks back, I don't consider someone saying 'you are transphobic (or in this case, racist) and here's why I think that' to be an insult. That is someone arguing their point. If someone turned around and said 'I think ____ is a transphobic/racist prick' then that is verbal abuse.

I can't consider the accusation of racism or any other forms of bigotry an insult in itself, especially if the accusation is explained fully in a sensible way.

Also this.

I have been called transphobic many times. I am aware that to some people my views will come across as transphobic, thats entirely their right to think I am transphobic. I disagree, obviously but I do not class 'you are transphobic' as an insult at all

Transphobia is the only phobia or ism I have been accused of though. And 'transphobia' today literally means 'anyone who does not agree that male people are actually female' so the word is totally meaningless.

[Ashley.]

Of course they're entitled. We don't have to agree with them, though.

[Crimson Dynamo]

i must move in the wrong circles because I dont come across anyone being racist/homophobic/sexist

the only time is on here

I hear the odd person at an auction say "coloured bloke" but its hardly KKK and they are not saying it with any malice. I dont know any gay people and dont talk about them or black people so apart from the odd joke about women its not something on my radar tbh

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I wouldn't call racist an insult, it's an accusation and one that's easily dispelled if it's not true. It does feel a bit rich though as you tend to bandy out phrases such as 'Leftie' 'Remoaner' and other terms for people that don't share your opinions yet you oppose people calling out others as racist. If you consider the latter an insult then does that mean you regularly insult other members too?

As I said when transphobia was a talking point a few weeks back, I don't consider someone saying 'you are transphobic (or in this case, racist) and here's why I think that' to be an insult. That is someone arguing their point. If someone turned around and said 'I think ____ is a transphobic/racist prick' then that is verbal abuse.

I can't consider the accusation of racism or any other forms of bigotry an insult in itself, especially if the accusation is explained fully in a sensible way.

Reactionary, it isn’t complicated - just got sick of people feeling they can call others racist according to their interpretation of their words. You invite that kind of response!

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

let's for a moment imagine a world where Donald T didn't have access to twitter, where all directives came from the whitehouse after being sanitised. We would have no idea what a crazy loop Trump is. That's the type of thing that can happen when people are not allowed to express themselves.

Very good point!

[Marsh.]

Of course they're entitled to whatever views they feel.

People are, however, entitled to challenge those views and call out bigotry. And can do so without having "but it's free speech" used as a lame excuse.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Of course they're entitled to whatever views they feel.

People are, however, entitled to challenge those views and call out bigotry. And can do so without having "but it's free speech" used as a lame excuse.

Yes it continually amazes me how so many people use this when someone challenges their views. Do they not realize free speech goes both ways or something?!

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Reactionary, it isn’t complicated - just got sick of people feeling they can call others racist according to their interpretation of their words. You invite that kind of response!

If I was called a racist, I would look internally for the reason why. I find it interesting that you keep looking for external excuses.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do they have that right in today's society?

People can be badly educated and may therefore express opinions that most of society would find objectionable.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

He only wants one-sided rhetoric. Debate doesn’t Come into it.

You mean like you do when you open threads to demonize Muslims ?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

If I was called a racist, I would look internally for the reason why. I find it interesting that you keep looking for external excuses.

I’m not looking for excuses - you are the one doing that. I only get called ‘racist’ by the same few people who have an agenda. It”s the hypocricy and obvious shut-down tactics that annoy me.

[Ammi]

..people can also be very highly educated../..well read etc and also have equally homophobic/racist/sexist etc views as well...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You mean like you do when you open threads to demonize Muslims ?

You see it as demonise because that suits you. No religion is above discussion or criticism and the day we can no longer do that is the day we really need to worry.

[Northern Monkey]

Well firstly I can’t vote in the poll as it’s too simplistic.

I think this thread is almost a first.Seems like everyone is mostly in agreement.Some very excellent posts in here.
My opinion probably just reflects what’s already been said.
Should we be able to abuse somebody racially or on sexuality or whatever?(i.e ‘you f’king .......) No obviously not.There are laws against hate and harassment and causing distress etc.
Should people have a legal right to express their views?
Yes and you should have the right to counter views you disagree with.
Suppressed views are much more dangerous than views that are out and open to be debated.Nobody can have their mind changed if you don’t know what they think.
A plain example was the rise of the BNP.The last Labour government totally ignored the country’s concerns on immigration and people started reaching out for an extreme party in desperation as no other party(at the time) would listen as they were too scared to be branded racist and be aligned with the BNP.
As for calling people racist,bigot etc.That’s got a bad rap now due to it being used way too frequently and inappropriately these days.The word has been ruined by the sjw hard leftie types using it as an insult.
Of course it is legitimate to call someone racist if you think they are and then it’s not an insult but as Dezzy says an accusation.If you think it’s slanderous then you can refute it with your point of view.
Throwing ‘racist’ out willy nilly has devalued it though so it’s met with skepticism alot.
Also you don’t change minds by calling them names and putting them on the defensive.It’s pretty fruitless.

And yes,John Barnes has every right to express his opinion and Shane J very maturely called him out on it without insults etc.

One point i disagreed with that i read somewhere was that nobody ever changes their views.
At high school age i was and infact many people at school were very homophobic.I did get my view changed from working with gay people and going in gay clubs because they were open later and had good music.Exposure is the best thing to change a view like that.

Most disputes on racism/homophobia etc aren’t over blatant name calling as everyone knows that’s wrong,but a disagreement as to what constitutes racism in usually grey disputable areas.