[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

OK - I concede that I could have picked better examples but I'm sure you understand the point I was making.

Was your point that business owners should have the right to refuse service to anyone? Cos I'd agree to that to a certain extent but not to the extent where you can discriminate against a person openly because of who they are.. I'm more on a 'not selling a drunk person more beer' level.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Was your point that business owners should have the right to refuse service to anyone? Cos I'd agree to that to a certain extent but not to the extent where you can discriminate against a person openly because of who they are.. I'm more on a 'not selling a drunk person more beer' level.

Yes - What I'm saying Withano, is that this is blowing something up out of all proportion. If a Gay guy or woman tries to order something from a supplier which is against the supplier's principles or faith, then as wrong as that may be to us, feck them - there are plenty of other suppliers eager for business, and to legislate against this crap with all the troubles in the world and the UK already in the grip of a 'Nanny State' thanks to Blair, is ridiculous in my opinion.

Maybe there wouldn't have been a problem with the Irish example of the cake had it not been for the 'Support Gay" message and same sex images.

I believe that a person has a right to be Gay and to marry same sex partners, but I also believe that in a Democracy a person of devout faith has the right to refuse such business if it genuinely compromises his beliefs.

I'm a Christian but not a Church goer and I regard Christian Extremists as OTT to be honest, but I would never advocate forcing any law on a person which makes him go against his beliefs.

There are so many alternatives now freely available to Gay people that I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about - just take your business elsewhere.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes - What I'm saying Withano, is that this is blowing something up out of all proportion. If a Gay guy or woman tries to order something from a supplier which is against the supplier's principles or faith, then as wrong as that may be to us, feck them - there are plenty of other suppliers eager for business, and to legislate against this crap with all the troubles in the world and the UK already in the grip of a 'Nanny State' thanks to Blair, is ridiculous in my opinion.

Maybe there wouldn't have been a problem with the Irish example of the cake had it not been for the 'Support Gay" message and same sex images.

I believe that a person has a right to be Gay and to marry same sex partners, but I also believe that in a Democracy a person of devout faith has the right to refuse such business if it genuinely compromises his beliefs.

I'm a Christian but not a Church goer and I regard Christian Extremists as OTT to be honest, but I would never advocate forcing any law on a person which makes him go against his beliefs.

There are so many alternatives now freely available to Gay people that I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about - just take your business elsewhere.

There I disagree, in my view such people should not even be allowed to be in such a business and cause offence to others who are simply legitimately seeking to do business that the rest of society can.
That is discrimination and should be wrong in any circumstances.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

There I disagree, in my view such people should not even be allowed to be in such a business and cause offence to others who are simply legitimately seeking to do business that the rest of society can.
That is discrimination and should be wrong in any circumstances.

And here we have the problem Joey:

Christians - even Fundamentalist ones - were learning trades and skills and building up businesses for many, many centuries BEFORE homosexuality became legal.

Christian Fundamentalists beliefs are their raison d'etre (the same reason why some Christians are beheaded by IS because they will not renounce their faith) and therefore certain developments in the modern world do not alter their perception of their Holy Book or their devout adherence to its scripture.

So if we have a, say, Cake making business, as the Irish example, which has been in one Christian family for generations, and a Gay couple enter and ask for a Wedding Cake making complete with slogan; "Support Gay Marriage".

What you are maintaining is that the Cake shop owner should either be;

A) Forced by Law to accept the Order and process it
B) Be prosecuted under the law if he refuses to accept the Order and process it.
C) Should be prevented by law from being in the business he and his family have owned and run for over 100 years.

Now who is DISCRIMINATING against who?

The OWNER turns down the the order from the prospective customer because it compromises his religious beliefs.

The customer is offended by this.

I know we are generalising here, but Why is the customer offended?

If the owner has explained in a cordial and polite way just WHY he cannot accept the order, then why do we need legislation?

Why can't the customer just take his order to a NON-CHRISTIAN cake shop?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And here we have the problem Joey:

Christians - even Fundamentalist ones - were learning trades and skills and building up businesses for many, many centuries BEFORE homosexuality became legal.

Christian Fundamentalists beliefs are their raison d'etre (the same reason why some Christians are beheaded by IS because they will not renounce their faith) and therefore certain developments in the modern world do not alter their perception of their Holy Book or their devout adherence to its scripture.

So if we have a, say, Cake making business, as the Irish example, which has been in one Christian family for generations, and a Gay couple enter and ask for a Wedding Cake making complete with slogan; "Support Gay Marriage".

What you are maintaining is that the Cake shop owner should either be;

A) Forced by Law to accept the Order and process it
B) Be prosecuted under the law if he refuses to accept the Order and process it.
C) Should be prevented by law from being in the business he and his family have owned and run for over 100 years.

Now who is DISCRIMINATING against who?

The OWNER turns down the the order from the prospective customer because it compromises his religious beliefs.

The customer is offended by this.

I know we are generalising here, but Why is the customer offended?

If the owner has explained in a cordial and polite way just WHY he cannot accept the order, then why do we need legislation?

Why can't the customer just take his order to a NON-CHRISTIAN cake shop?

exactly.....anyone with a religious belief that says they don't want to support gay ,marriage should be left alone without death threats....sadly some radical gay rights activists literally want their cake and eat it

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And here we have the problem Joey:

Christians - even Fundamentalist ones - were learning trades and skills and building up businesses for many, many centuries BEFORE homosexuality became legal.

Christian Fundamentalists beliefs are their raison d'etre (the same reason why some Christians are beheaded by IS because they will not renounce their faith) and therefore certain developments in the modern world do not alter their perception of their Holy Book or their devout adherence to its scripture.

So if we have a, say, Cake making business, as the Irish example, which has been in one Christian family for generations, and a Gay couple enter and ask for a Wedding Cake making complete with slogan; "Support Gay Marriage".


What you are maintaining is that the Cake shop owner should either be;

A) Forced by Law to accept the Order and process it
B) Be prosecuted under the law if he refuses to accept the Order and process it.
C) Should be prevented by law from being in the business he and his family have owned and run for over 100 years.

Now who is DISCRIMINATING against who?

The OWNER turns down the the order from the prospective customer because it compromises his religious beliefs.

The customer is offended by this.

I know we are generalising here, but Why is the customer offended?

If the owner has explained in a cordial and polite way just WHY he cannot accept the order, then why do we need legislation?

Why can't the customer just take his order to a NON-CHRISTIAN cake shop?

No, not for me, if someone is in business, a public business where they want the custom of the public,then that is what they should provide, for all.
If they cannot, they should not be allowed to disciminate agains any people who are not and have not done anything illegal.

They have their rights to their views personally, not to push them down others throats in a business intended to attract custom from the UK citizenship,no way.

Better not to have such people in business in the first place if they would so firmly 'force' their views on others and discriminate.
The public have the right to choose where they take their custom, unless someone has threatened a business owner or their staff,all businessess wanting the publics custom should serve whoever approaches them.

No one doing nothing illegal, should be made to feel wrong or segregated for their feelings or relationships by anyone, in business or even otherwise.
Any legal protection, in this instance, should be for the potential customers,not some apparantly bigoted business people.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

No, not for me, if someone is in business, a public business where they want the custom of the public,then that is what they should provide, for all.
If they cannot, they should not be allowed to disciminate agains any people who are not and have not done anything illegal.

They have their rights to their views personally, not to push them down others throats in a business intended to attract custom from the UK citizenship,no way.

Better not to have such people in business in the first place if they would so firmly 'force' their views on others and discriminate.
The public have the right to choose where they take their custom, unless someone has threatened a business owner or their staff,all businessess wanting the publics custom should serve whoever approaches them.

No one doing nothing illegal, should be made to feel wrong or segregated for their feelings or relationships by anyone, in business or even otherwise.
Any legal protection, in this instance, should be for the potential customers,not some apparantly bigoted business people.

So you are in favour then of forcing by law, all the Synagogues and Mosques in the UK to MARRY gay people? Sincere Good Luck with that.

I couldn't really care less about whether Gays want to get married, order cakes specially dedicated with 'Pro Gay Marriage' motifs, or whether extremist Christians have a 'legal' right to refuse such requests. What I am totally bewildered by (though not surprised) is why this nonsense has been, and is being, blown up out of all proportion.

You write that; "No one doing nothing illegal, should be made to feel wrong or segregated for their feelings or relationships by anyone" - Yet does this NOT also include the business owner?

Are they not now as we speak being made to 'feel wrong' and 'being segregated for their feelings' and religious convictions'?

As 'The Truth' says, some hitherto ordinary decent, law-abiding business owners are now even receiving death threats and being ostracised for being compelled to adhere to their faith.

I would advocate a simple solution in which Fundamentalist Christian business owners erect signs stating (in nice polite terms) their beliefs, and apologising for not being able to cater for X, Y & Z . but I believe this would only lay them open to 1933 type "Judenboykott" and all the ensuing hatred which follows.

I have stated many times that I believe that the 'Law is the Law' and that it cannot be 'cherry picked, bent, twisted or re-shaped to suit our own personal prejudices and whims, so if it is current law that Christian Fundamentalist business owners MUST accept orders from anyone in spite of any conflict with 'religious' convictions, then they must do so, until such time as they suceed in having such a law democratically rescinded.

I have a deep uncomfortable feeling though, that this matter is just another example of a very real and sinister 'anti-Christian' movement in this country - borne surreptitiously by parties who have no other agenda than to destroy Christianity in this country, and usurp it.

I defy anyone on here to explain just why Christianity - the most peaceful of all religions - is the recipient of more vitriol than any other religion?

Christian Fundamentalists may wrongly be electing not to bake cakes for Gays, but they are NOT throwing them off the roofs of 12 storey buildings, and Gay people CAN take their business elsewhere.

What should be a trivial matter is being used to make political capital by sinister parties.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So you are in favour then of forcing by law, all the Synagogues and Mosques in the UK to MARRY gay people? Sincere Good Luck with that.

I couldn't really care less about whether Gays want to get married, order cakes specially dedicated with 'Pro Gay Marriage' motifs, or whether extremist Christians have a 'legal' right to refuse such requests. What I am totally bewildered by (though not surprised) is why this nonsense has been, and is being, blown up out of all proportion.

You write that; "No one doing nothing illegal, should be made to feel wrong or segregated for their feelings or relationships by anyone" - Yet does this NOT also include the business owner?

Are they not now as we speak being made to 'feel wrong' and 'being segregated for their feelings' and religious convictions'?

As 'The Truth' says, some hitherto ordinary decent, law-abiding business owners are now even receiving death threats and being ostracised for being compelled to adhere to their faith.

I would advocate a simple solution in which Fundamentalist Christian business owners erect signs stating (in nice polite terms) their beliefs, and apologising for not being able to cater for X, Y & Z . but I believe this would only lay them open to 1933 type "Judenboykott" and all the ensuing hatred which follows.

I have stated many times that I believe that the 'Law is the Law' and that it cannot be 'cherry picked, bent, twisted or re-shaped to suit our own personal prejudices and whims, so if it is current law that Christian Fundamentalist business owners MUST accept orders from anyone in spite of any conflict with 'religious' convictions, then they must do so, until such time as they suceed in having such a law democratically rescinded.

I have a deep uncomfortable feeling though, that this matter is just another example of a very real and sinister 'anti-Christian' movement in this country - borne surreptitiously by parties who have no other agenda than to destroy Christianity in this country, and usurp it.

I defy anyone on here to explain just why Christianity - the most peaceful of all religions - is the recipient of more vitriol than any other religion?

Christian Fundamentalists may wrongly be electing not to bake cakes for Gays, but they are NOT throwing them off the roofs of 12 storey buildings, and Gay people CAN take their business elsewhere.

What should be a trivial matter is being used to make political capital by sinister parties.

Churches are not a business Kirk, really.

You were on about cake shop owners and people in business serving the public.

Churches are the biggest of hypocrites anyway in my view, I am a Roman Catholic,I love still the mass and especially the Easter services, that however is not a business.
I can go to Church or not go to church,I don't give custom to a church,I am member of a Church not a customer.

All my post was on about was people operating a business open to the public, my response again to you was to the cake shop scenario.
That is a business, Churches, Mosques and Synagogues are places of 'worship' not 'shops' and other businesses.

The hypocrisy of the churches however are that they will happily take direct debits,collection plate money, donations from gay people and gay couples in relationships too, and then would segregate same from certain sacramental elements of the Church/Faith.
I myself think that totally wrong in the 21st century,however unfortunately legislation would be very unwise to force a change, although in my view it could be the right thing to do.

As again back now to people in business, that will involve the gathering of custom from UK citizens, so no, they should not be allowed to discriminate and refuse service on those grounds of personal faith.

Not so long ago, in my faith, holydays had to be strictly observed,such as good friday, Easter sunday and certain Saints days.
Now,(and not because of other religions from around the world),that doesn't matter as to business, Christians have to work sundays, and any other so called holydays,they have to put aside their personal religious views to be employed.
The same should apply to people in business.
They should have to put aside their religious personal views to 'serve' all the public from the business they choose themselves to go into and set up.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes - What I'm saying Withano, is that this is blowing something up out of all proportion. If a Gay guy or woman tries to order something from a supplier which is against the supplier's principles or faith, then as wrong as that may be to us, feck them - there are plenty of other suppliers eager for business, and to legislate against this crap with all the troubles in the world and the UK already in the grip of a 'Nanny State' thanks to Blair, is ridiculous in my opinion.

Maybe there wouldn't have been a problem with the Irish example of the cake had it not been for the 'Support Gay" message and same sex images.

I believe that a person has a right to be Gay and to marry same sex partners, but I also believe that in a Democracy a person of devout faith has the right to refuse such business if it genuinely compromises his beliefs.

I'm a Christian but not a Church goer and I regard Christian Extremists as OTT to be honest, but I would never advocate forcing any law on a person which makes him go against his beliefs.

There are so many alternatives now freely available to Gay people that I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about - just take your business elsewhere.

I would 100% agree with you if there was one single church that follows every single thing that the bible says. However, in the Uk at least, there is not. If a church can pick and choose which passages to follow to protect the rights of women, they should find a way to support the rights of all humans too. If there was a church that followed every single passage down to the last detail, I'd let them off.

I'm also Christian but believe that morality trumps ignorance and some people, especially including the people who are in UKIP and those that support UKIP need to grow up! They're just backward and old-fashioned. This policy isn't the final straw, it is just an extra insult on top of a long line of mistakes.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Withano

I would 100% agree with you if there was one single church that follows every single thing that the bible says. However, in the Uk at least, there is not. If a church can pick and choose which passages to follow to protect the rights of women, they should find a way to support the rights of all humans too. If there was a church that followed every single passage down to the last detail, I'd let them off.

I'm also Christian but believe that morality trumps ignorance and some people, especially including the people who are in UKIP and those that support UKIP need to grow up! They're just backward and old-fashioned. This policy isn't the final straw, it is just an extra insult on top of a long line of mistakes.

the extremists on all sides who threaten death and violence are all out of order

[Withano]

Originally Posted by the truth

the extremists on all sides who threaten death and violence are all out of order

obviously.. why did you quote me? haha.