[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

[bots]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

The government is not destroying the NHS and it is ridiculous to suggest that they are. Does it approach its running differently from a Labour government? Yes it does, but that doesn't make it wrong. Labour showed all to well how to **** up the NHS during their time in office

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The government is not destroying the NHS and it is ridiculous to suggest that they are. Does it approach its running differently from a Labour government? Yes it does, but that doesn't make it wrong. Labour showed all to well how to **** up the NHS during their time in office

This (meaning Tory post 2010) government demonstrably *is* systematically dismantling the NHS, whether you choose to believe it or not. The size of the NHS means it has always had deep problems but the major failings, which are increasing, have been cynically crafted by a Tory government that wants a switch to private, insurance-funded health care but simply cannot say so explicitly because of how (rightly) unpopular it would be.

They are shifting us to private health care through the back door, and making such palatable by creating situations that erode the publics faith in the NHS. There's really no two ways about that.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This (meaning Tory post 2010) government demonstrably *is* systematically dismantling the NHS, whether you choose to believe it or not. The size of the NHS means it has always had deep problems but the major failings, which are increasing, have been cynically crafted by a Tory government that wants a switch to private, insurance-funded health care but simply cannot say so explicitly because of how (rightly) unpopular it would be.

They are shifting us to private health care through the back door, and making such palatable by creating situations that erode the publics faith in the NHS. There's really no two ways about that.

sometimes privatising certain areas is better..compare the computer systems in nhs wales to nhs england...this is why englands waiting lists are way way shorter...they have a national database....the mindless socialist unionist way of non thinking is what brought about the collapse of coal too...they must find a compromise they must engage their brains

..especially when the service still remains free and the service and waiting lists fall...in the end thats all that matters

[the truth]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

labour did that....remmeber mrsa everywhere at 70 times the rate of sweden?
remember the endless cover ups and abuses? 1500 patients died of thirst in stafford....doctors admitted they were bullied and intimidated not to complain, the ombudsmen and complaints system collapsed....endless cover ups, in wales they took body parts without authorisation....the waiting lists in wales under labour are insane compared to england....the way its run with these monstrous trusts is totally wasteful and corrupt and in many ways plain stupid....their block booking systems are crazy, you cant get scanned at weekends, you cant get your test results for simple things like eye tests for up to 6 to 10 weeks? in england you get the results the same day

the welsh nhs is an absolute shambles

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

Dont get personal with me mate just because I hold a different view to your own

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Dont get personal with me mate just because I hold a different view to your own

Not getting personal at all, stop trying to take the topic off course.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

So if jr drs are already stretched how is asking them to work less going to work? Recruit more... Just have wards staffed with nurse practitioners?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So if jr drs are already stretched how is asking them to work less going to work? Recruit more... Just have wards staffed with nurse practitioners?

again its really simple maths...at present less than a third work weekends and the mass of workload falls on those few junior doctors who overwork up to 91 hours..under the new contracts they all work some weekends so the workload is spread more evenly throughout ALL junior doctors...please understand this basic fact. forget tory v labour for a moment. this is why all huge organizations use these 4 day on 4 day off continental work shift patterns. the nhs should of course do exactly the same.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by the truth

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

Please, tell me more about these millionaire JDs.

[Kizzy]

100% agree with that Hunt is the privatisation tzar.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

100% agree with that Hunt is the privatisation tzar.

hunt is 100% irrelevant...the nhs must become 7 day a week at the same level that means 4 day on 4 day off doctors contracts...it also means in time we must tear up the insane 2004 gp doctors contract allowing them all to avoid all out of hours work

[user104658]

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

its simple maths which all the tory haters here cant understand

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

the tories have reduced the maximum hours by 19 hours, labour are insane they expect doctors to work 91 hours and they let gp's off the hook totally

its not single rate either that is simply wrong

[MTVN]

LESS than five per cent of junior doctors backed the five-day walkouts ordered by militant bosses, The Sun on Sunday can reveal.

Strike leaders now fear thousands of the medics will cross picket lines as they do not support the action.

The walkout, due to start next week, will cause 500,000 operations to be cancelled and four million appointments lost, hospitals association NHS Providers has said.

And sources have described the strikes as a step too far that will put patients’ lives at risk.

Some 37,770 of England’s 55,000 junior doctors are members of the British Medical Association, giving them a vote on industrial action.

But just 20 per cent (7,540) returned an August ballot on the fresh strikes set to begin on September 12.

And only 31.5 per cent (2,375) of those who did vote backed the full five-day walkouts.

That means the monthly strikes that will see medics abandon hospital departments including A&E, maternity and intensive care were supported by just 4.3 per cent of junior doctors.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategoriz...strike-action/

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

LESS than five per cent of junior doctors backed the five-day walkouts ordered by militant bosses, The Sun on Sunday can reveal.

Strike leaders now fear thousands of the medics will cross picket lines as they do not support the action.

The walkout, due to start next week, will cause 500,000 operations to be cancelled and four million appointments lost, hospitals association NHS Providers has said.

And sources have described the strikes as a step too far that will put patients’ lives at risk.

Some 37,770 of England’s 55,000 junior doctors are members of the British Medical Association, giving them a vote on industrial action.

But just 20 per cent (7,540) returned an August ballot on the fresh strikes set to begin on September 12.

And only 31.5 per cent (2,375) of those who did vote backed the full five-day walkouts.

That means the monthly strikes that will see medics abandon hospital departments including A&E, maternity and intensive care were supported by just 4.3 per cent of junior doctors.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategoriz...strike-action/

Well lets see if the govt. does nothing and this goes ahead, just how many Junior Doctors do actually leave their posts.

The fact is Junior Doctors do 'not' want to strike, however they are not being listened to.

2 of my Cousins are leaving the UK,with 2 more to follow later,I am not happy that they, who worked so hard and studied so hard to become Doctors are now so mad at the govt and the idea of this contract, that they are leaving the UK completely.

Why, because they believe now that this govt will impose this contract against all the will of all across the NHS and so, for Doctors, it is a waste of time expecting anything better now from this govt or England as to the NHS and this contract.

Strike or no strike, England and this Govt may realise, after the imposing of this contract, eventually,(once many more clear off to places where people will appreciate them),that they had gems of Doctors working in the NHS that have been driven away by this badly planned contract.

Too late then to admit the govt was wrong and support for this govt on this issue was badly misguided due to misleading info from said govt.

As to what state the NHS will be after that, well England and this govt will get all it deserves and masses of Patients really sadly being the ones to pay the price for a govt unable to be reasonable and being plain stubborn.

As for the Govts 7 day week plan, that is almost dead in the water anyway even before this dispute,after the loss to come of many really good Doctors,if this contract is just imposed, it will then be likely impossible to bring about.
It will be hard enough to even come close to providing what is the service now.

Funny how now we should take notice of numbers who did not vote,yet on other issues anyone not voting on something should be ignored.

[MTVN]

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.