[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

While I can agree with most of what you say there, it is I think unfair the criticism you make of the person you are getting at again.
Her views areas relevant as anyone elses and just because they are at odds with yours does not make them ill informed or erroneous.

This was the problem in the USA election which must have turned off many voters there by the personal slurs on the other by each candidate.
Neither gained any moral high ground there.

However how the EU gets in here is a little mystifying but Kirk, we are all Joe Public, not just you and those you know personally.
Also the other Joe Publics equally will have people they know well, are acquaintances or who they just know of such as you list as who voted leave, who also voted remain.

You haven't a monopoly on those groups, just as no one else has who is Joe public.
The people who voted remain, also know what they voting foe, Joe public and all the groups who did so that you list.

I do have to say, I asked many questions on here just as to what leaving meant and no leave voter told me anything concrete.
The only answer I got was they didn't want the EU making our laws.
Remain voters in my view voted for the status quo,knowing how all was and would not liekly change.
Leave voters probably voted for different reasons, some just for change, some for making our own laws, some immigration, some as to the single market and some for all of those things probably too.
Not all however.

So,I wanted to try to heed what others were saying opposite to me but I got nothing concrete at all,that could persuade me that the UK would do better out of the EU.
If I could have believed that, I would have thought about my vote more.
I listened to what you and most said,( when they were not personally insulting about it).
I was one who also realised remain was not going to win and in fact kept telling you that leave would get a result.

Anyway, all the people and groups you list that you know who voted to leave is fine but that is not the only story.
Those who voted remain probably the majority of them too have the same sets of people and professions they know, and know of as well who also voted as they did,remain too.
We are all Joe public however, not just you and those you know who think like you do.
Just as I am Joe public and those I know are not the only Joe public either.
.

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before.
However in even my own family, of whom very few voted to leave, talking to just 5 of them, 1 only voted to stop free movement of people from the EU, 2 voted for powers to be returned back to the UK parliament and the other 2 voted just for a change, no specifics as to why.

There were several factors of voting leave with not all voting for one set of things either.
That is my view and you can discount that but even from that small number in my family who did so, they did not vote for instance,believing we would leave the single market..
Also neither were they voting for that when they voted leave.

Needless to say I disagree too with your fist part of your post sadly, I see no reasons for personal attacks on others and stating they appear to know nothing.
Everyone has opinions, they do not need to be offensive,.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before.
However in even my own family, of whom very few voted to leave, talking to just 5 of them, 1 only voted to stop free movement of people from the EU, 2 voted for powers to be returned back to the UK parliament and the other 2 voted just for a change, no specifics as to why.

There were several factors of voting leave with not all voting for one set of things either.
That is my view and you can discount that but even from that small number in my family who did so, they did not vote for instance,believing we would leave the single market..
Also neither were they voting for that when they voted leave.

Needless to say I disagree too with your fist part of your post sadly, I see no reasons for personal attacks on others and stating they appear to know nothing.
Everyone has opinions, they do not need to be offensive,.

But what makes those examples that you give of leave voters you know any more valid than those that Kirk knows?All are equally valid.There are many who researched what they were voting for aswell as many who did'nt on both sides.I don't discount your view as you shouldn't discount Kirks on those examples.There are implications on here that most leavers are unimformed or racists or xenophobes etc(i'm not saying that you've suggested that).These are offensive to leavers.
I saw no personal attacks in his post towards any person.Just an opinion on posts on here.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But what makes those examples that you give of leave voters you know any more valid than those that Kirk knows?All are equally valid.There are many who researched what they were voting for aswell as many who did'nt on both sides.I don't discount your view as you shouldn't discount Kirks on those examples.There are implications on here that most leavers are unimformed or racists or xenophobes etc(i'm not saying that you've suggested that).These are offensive to leavers.
I saw no personal attacks in his post towards any person.Just an opinion on posts on here.

They are not more valid, where do I say that?
That is exactly what I was saying.

However in the post I responded to that post that does not say anywhere in there any acknowledgement of an opposing view.
Where on earth though did I say my findings were any more valid than Kirk's, it was merely another take on actual leave voters and voting.

What is sure however,in my view,is that neither him, you or I can be sure that 'everyone' who voted leave, voted for 'all' the same reasons or even just one reason.

They voted to leave yes, the make up of leaving is an entirely different thing.

By the way, there's been plenty of abuse thrown at remain voters on here too, very unpleasantly too at times.
Very much directly against myself personally as well.
Leave actually does not have a monopoly on that happening either.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They are not more valid, where do I say that?
That is exactly what I was saying.

However in the post I responded to that post that does not say anywhere in there any acknowledgement of an opposing view.
Where on earth though did I say my findings were any more valid than Kirk's, it was merely another take on actual leave voters and voting.

What is sure however,in my view,is that neither him, you or I can be sure that 'everyone' who voted leave, voted for 'all' the same reasons or even just one reason.

They voted to leave yes, the make up of leaving is an entirely different thing.

By the way, there's been plenty of abuse thrown at remain voters on here too, very unpleasantly too at times.
Very much directly against myself personally as well.
Leave actually does not have a monopoly on that happening either.

It seems we agree that many leave voters made an informed and researched decision just as many didn't.
You began your post with -
"I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before."
And then continued with examples of people you know who voted leave without any or many actual reasons.
Maybe if you'd said 'I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting FROM SOME leave voters' then I wouldn't have misunderstood your meaning.

Kirks post didn't have any acknowledgement of an opposing view because he was giving a rebuttal with examples of leavers who he knows to a post which was covertly implying 'Joe public'(people who voted leave) were uninformed idiots who were about to get some big shock or 'kick in the nads'.

The rest of your post I agree with.Although i haven't seen you abused Personally it may have happened.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It seems we agree that many leave voters made an informed and researched decision just as many didn't.
You began your post with -
"I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before."
And then continued with examples of people you know who voted leave without any or many actual reasons.
Maybe if you'd said 'I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting FROM SOME leave voters' then I wouldn't have misunderstood your meaning.

Kirks post didn't have any acknowledgement of an opposing view because he was giving a rebuttal with examples of leavers who he knows to a post which was covertly implying 'Joe public'(people who voted leave) were uninformed idiots who were about to get some big shock or 'kick in the nads'.

The rest of your post I agree with.Although i haven't seen you abused Personally it may have happened.

I am rather confused that there was any difficulty in understanding my statement.
Since I myself included no quantifying at all of the comment because like everyone else, I do not know how many voted that were in fact who could be termed not informed.
Hence no figures of any quantity even as to minority, half or majority in my post at all.

Just as I equally, which is why I also included both for leave and remain in my posts, have no idea if the minority, half or majority, of remain voters voted remain with the full knowledge of the workings of the EU itself either.

With respect neither have you or anyone else as to that.

Also finally, the abuse I mentioned did happen, not 'may have happened', it did,since I was on the receiving end I know it did.

I was hammered on here accused of being someone who pestered people and invaded their privacy by canvassing knocking at their doors during the EU referendum, a duty I and hoards of other people were supposed to carry out as a part of a canvassing team.
Just to mention one instance.

You didn't see it, so you just say maybe it happened, it did happen.
I balance my views on here whenever can, I never need to make anything up.

However,I have held back as a member on here but the getting at done on here,jumping at any little thing for whatever reasons,is a turn off.
Some are getting a raw deal just for who they are on the forum, that is sad to see anywhere, not just on this forum.
So I felt the need to defend someone today just as it seems you did too.

Except no insults were flying from me as to all their posts on any of the points I made or raised.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am rather confused that there was any difficulty in understanding my statement.
Since I myself included no quantifying at all of the comment because like everyone else, I do not know how many voted that were in fact who could be termed not informed.
Hence no figures of any quantity even as to minority, half or majority in my post at all.

Just as I equally, which is why I also included both for leave and remain in my posts, have no idea if the minority, half or majority, of remain voters voted remain with the full knowledge of the workings of the EU itself either.

With respect neither have you or anyone else as to that.

Also finally, the abuse I mentioned did happen, not 'may have happened', it did,since I was on the receiving end I know it did.

I was hammered on here accused of being someone who pestered people and invaded their privacy by canvassing knocking at their doors during the EU referendum, a duty I and hoards of other people were supposed to carry out as a part of a canvassing team.
Just to mention one instance.

You didn't see it, so you just say maybe it happened, it did happen.
I balance my views on here whenever can, I never need to make anything up.

However,I have held back as a member on here but the getting at done on here,jumping at any little thing for whatever reasons,is a turn off.
Some are getting a raw deal just for who they are on the forum, that is sad to see anywhere, not just on this forum.
So I felt the need to defend someone today just as it seems you did too.

Except no insults were flying from me as to all their posts on any of the points I made or raised.

Yeah,When i said 'it may have happened' I wasn't doubting that it did.Maybe i worded that incorrectly.I do believe you that it did and i don't think you make anything up.I often enjoy and learn much from your posts.I was just saying that I didn't see it.I also try and stay out of all the drama and bickering on here(i get enough of that irl from the misses).However i believe you Possibly misunderstood or misrepresented Kirks post in saying he was trying to have some kind of 'monopoly' in knowing people on the leave side from all different backgrounds when this was not the case.He was simply refuting an imo underhanded dig at leave voters.
Anyway i'm sure we'll all be warring about some other issue in a few weeks and then CBB.It's all entertainment.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before.
However in even my own family, of whom very few voted to leave, talking to just 5 of them, 1 only voted to stop free movement of people from the EU, 2 voted for powers to be returned back to the UK parliament and the other 2 voted just for a change, no specifics as to why.

There were several factors of voting leave with not all voting for one set of things either.
That is my view and you can discount that but even from that small number in my family who did so, they did not vote for instance,believing we would leave the single market..
Also neither were they voting for that when they voted leave.

Needless to say I disagree too with your fist part of your post sadly, I see no reasons for personal attacks on others and stating they appear to know nothing.
Everyone has opinions, they do not need to be offensive,.

I agree , remainers were spectacularly uninformed, most didnt even know the commissioners couldnt be voted in or out? Most didnt even know about the mass of bankrupt nations and record unemployment across europe

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

My SINCEREST thanks to you Paul for your support.

I did NOTHING but respond - CIVILLY - to yet another piss-taking, demeaning post aimed at Brexiteers.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

My SINCEREST thanks to you Paul for your support.

I did NOTHING but respond - CIVILLY - to yet another piss-taking, demeaning post aimed at Brexiteers.

No problem.We have to restore balance to the force sometimes

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

No problem.We have to restore balance to the force sometimes

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

Well just to clarify... I mentioned Joe Public,which is every last one of us is it not?
Not just those who wanted brexit EVERYONE.

We were then and continue to be by definition ill informed, as there was only misinformation prior to the referendum and NO subsequent information to be had in relation to brexit..... Remember? 'Brexit means brexit', that in my opinion does not quantify as information which serves any purpose it is simply a nonsense statement.

I'm not mystic.... That is just how it is I'm afraid, sorry if anyone' bubble was burst. My statement however bold was perfectly valid.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well just to clarify... I mentioned Joe Public,which is every last one of us is it not?
Not just those who wanted brexit EVERYONE.

We were then and continue to be by definition ill informed, as there was only misinformation prior to the referendum and NO subsequent information to be had in relation to brexit..... Remember? 'Brexit means brexit', that in my opinion does not quantify as information which serves any purpose it is simply a nonsense statement.

I'm not mystic.... That is just how it is I'm afraid, sorry if anyone' bubble was burst. My statement however bold was perfectly valid.

Exactly.

I still do not get how this thread, related to Hillary Clinton supporters and the USA election has been taken down a different road and into yet another EU leaving thread.

However, you keep making your points, I do not consider any points made by anyone wrong from their own perspectives, which is really all what anyone's opinions are.
I most certainly do not consider yours ill informed in any way either, so you hold on to your views and don't take any notice of possibly any trying to possibly then trying to claim any high ground over you.
Where and how you have come to stand on issues is as important as anyone else.

On and off here, all people have their truths as they see them and others have differing ones, from whatever and how they are looking at things too.

Adding more and more put downs and near insults just for differing views means an argument is likely to be lost by whoever chooses to do the put downs.
Anyway, good points in what I have put in bold of your post there as like you that is all I have heard, brexit means brexit, nothing else of real substance whatsoever.
That is hardly informing anyone and no one can even yet say at this time, just what the real and full picture of brexit is going to be, no one, no matter their own reasons why they voted for same.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Exactly.

I still do not get how this thread, related to Hillary Clinton supporters and the USA election has been taken down a different road and into yet another EU leaving thread.

However, you keep making your points, I do not consider any points made by anyone wrong from their own perspectives, which is really all what anyone's opinions are.
I most certainly do not consider yours ill informed in any way either, so you hold on to your views and don't take any notice of possibly any trying to possibly then trying to claim any high ground over you.
Where and how you have come to stand on issues is as important as anyone else.

On and off here, all people have their truths as they see them and others have differing ones, from whatever and how they are looking at things too.

Adding more and more put downs and near insults just for differing views means an argument is likely to be lost by whoever chooses to do the put downs.
Anyway, good points in what I have put in bold of your post there as like you that is all I have heard, brexit means brexit, nothing else of real substance whatsoever.
That is hardly informing anyone and no one can even yet say at this time, just what the real and full picture of brexit is going to be, no one, no matter their own reasons why they voted for same.

Thank you Joey, I have learned on here to simply state my truths and disregard anyone who attempts to stifle my voice in an attempt to dominate the conversation.
I really hope the part in bold makes my feelings crystal clear on this issue, I don't know how it got to brexit either But it kind of fits due to the media driven hype surrounding both issue.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Exactly.

I still do not get how this thread, related to Hillary Clinton supporters and the USA election has been taken down a different road and into yet another EU leaving thread.

It's ALL there in the thread Joey if read through chronologically, but:

THE FIRST DEVIATION FROM THE OP SUBJECT ONTO THE EU - POST 98 - BY DEZZY: "Don't forget those hateful remoaners and their sour grapes!"

THE SECOND DEVIATION FROM THE OP SUBJECT ONTO THE EU - POST 102 BY DEZZY: "Most voters are uninformed, they'll make their decisions based on the soundbites and the headlines. That goes for most people on both sides of any vote. Brexit had so much support because the Brexit campaign lied about £350 million being freed up by leaving EU and that leaving would curb immigration which it wouldn't. The actual pros and cons of any election rarely come into it which is likely why Trump won despite the fact that his policies are flawed. People bought into the soundbites rather than the reality."

THE THIRD DEVIATION FROM THE OP SUBJECT ONTO THE EU - A RESPONSE POST 105 BY BRILLOPAD TO DEZZY'S EU POST: "That is beyond patronising. I completely disagree that most voters are uninformed and gullible. People are generally well educated and interested in the politics of their own country because, despite your implications, they have enough sense to know how such policies can influence their lives.

Both sides lied, not least Cameron and Osborne with project fear. I have no doubt that because of Brexit we will retain a tighter control of our borders in the future, to ignore the voters would be political suicide for some and would have enormous negative consequences for the democratic voting system in this country.

You clearly seem to think you know better than most people in this country, but somehow I seriously doubt that."

THE FOURTH DEVIATION FROM THE OP SUBJECT ONTO THE EU - A RESPONSE POST 111 BY JAMES: "From what I can see most people get their opinions on subjects like the EU over a number of years. It's been talked about for ages. Probably nightly TV news is the main source. I doubt political campaigns make much difference actually.

I was looking back, and here is a poll from before the EU referendum campaign that had Leave in the lead - http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru...&postcount=882 before any buses with £350 million slogans appeared.

I'm talking about UK politics here - don't know enough about US politics to say much about the reasons for that. Although for what I can see the campaign there was mostly about personality and character of the candidates, with actual policies hardly talked about.

THE FIFTH DEVIATION FROM THE OP SUBJECT ONTO THE EU - A RESPONSE POST 116 BY DEZZY TO JAMES: "It went back and forth for ages iirc and plus it doesn't really disprove what I'm saying about a lot of people not really being informed.

Brexit mostly became a vote on immigration by the end although leaving the EU would have little effect on our immigration policies. Most people likely voted Leave or Remain on that issue alone although neither option would have an affect on it. That's rather uninformed."

AND WHAT WAS THE STIMULUS WHICH BROUGHT ME TO RESPON

THE SIXTH DEVIATION FROM THE OP SUBJECT ONTO THE EU - A RESPONSE POST NUMBER 118 BY KIZZY TO BRILLOPA"....No. joe public does not have a clue what is about to theoretically knee him in the nads concerning brexit."

I hope that this now clarifies the mystery for you Joey.




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