[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Did he not say that we should alliow Jihadist fighters who have most likely killed Members of the British armed forces, or if not, not through want of trying, back into our country. Do you really not think that such people pose a threat to all of us? I really cannot fathom that thought process.

Corbyn does sound like a terrorist sympathiser to me.

I'll give you this much Brillo: I'm at least starting to understand that you have genuine fears that fuel your political beliefs and you're not just typing to score points. So that's progress, I suppose.

However I think, from now several months of experience on these forums (years? I can't remember when you rejoined tbh) that you have a very black and white view of the issues at hand and see it all as being "really quite simple" when they are actually, without exception, really very complex. I think by extension of that, you also assume that those who have opposing views to you also see things as being black and white / simple?

I am aware that Corbyn is not a perfect choice. I didn't and haven't ever voted Labour. However I am also aware that the SNP and their policies are far from perfect; they are my BEST choice but in all honesty I wish I had a better one. I am also aware that there are Conservative MPs who have the best of intentions for their constituents.

But the overall trajectory of the Conservative Party under Theresa May, their pandering to authoritarian sensibilities, their deliberate destruction to pave the way for privatisation that benefits them and those close to them directly... None of that can be safely ignored, either?

You have a stance of "defending them no matter what", spinning everything into a positive no matter how obviously negative it is, and it makes it impossible to have any sort of genuine political discussion.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'll give you this much Brillo: I'm at least starting to understand that you have genuine fears that fuel your political beliefs and you're not just typing to score points. So that's progress, I suppose.

However I think, from now several months of experience on these forums (years? I can't remember when you rejoined tbh) that you have a very black and white view of the issues at hand and see it all as being "really quite simple" when they are actually, without exception, really very complex. I think by extension of that, you also assume that those who have opposing views to you also see things as being black and white / simple?

I am aware that Corbyn is not a perfect choice. I didn't and haven't ever voted Labour. However I am also aware that the SNP and their policies are far from perfect; they are my BEST choice but in all honesty I wish I had a better one. I am also aware that there are Conservative MPs who have the best of intentions for their constituents.

But the overall trajectory of the Conservative Party under Theresa May, their pandering to authoritarian sensibilities, their deliberate destruction to pave the way for privatisation that benefits them and those close to them directly... None of that can be safely ignored, either?

You have a stance of "defending them no matter what", spinning everything into a positive no matter how obviously negative it is, and it makes it impossible to have any sort of genuine political discussion.

TBH it's not so much defending Tories as protecting us from Labour. I do feel safer with the Tories. I am not rich, I'm ok, although I have struggled in the past, but I feel on more solid ground with them. I don't particularly like May, I would rather see David Davis as PM, but she is PM ATM so I will support her.

Like most I want more money spent our public services, especially the NHS, but not at the cost of our security and freedoms and, ATM, I feel the tories and their policies are the most likely to do that. I also want to see a fairer society but the way Labour are going about it with policies that will break the bank and put us further in debt is not the way to do it. Corbynis full of promises, like he thinks he has all the answers, but with nothing substantial to back them up in my book. Add that to the security risk I feel he poses I don't want anything to do with him.

I care about the future of my children and their families and with Corbyn and his views I fear for the future for all our children. I feel he cares more about minority groups than the majority of people in this country. There is of course nothing wrong with caring about the less fortunate or excluded in our society but I sometimes feel he takes it to extremes and sees himself, rather arrogantly, as some kind of saviour for all mankind - he us not - and I think this blinds his viewpoint and makes him potentially dangerous - hence his sympathetic views on terrorists.

He seems to see terrorism as some kind of understandable fight against injustice and it isn't. Terrorism is never justified. I think he may have a chip on his shoulder about his privileged upbringing and some kind of 'issue' with the way he was brought up. But then again, like many politicians, maybe he is simply on a power trip, but is better as disguising his motives. Anyway there are too many maybe's in my mind to trust him.

Then or course there is Brexit, God help us if he gets his hands on that, is all I can say. I want the tories for that.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

TBH it's not so much defending Tories as protecting us from Labour. I do feel safer with the Tories. I am not rich, I'm ok, although I have struggled in the past, but I feel on more solid ground with them. I don't particularly like May, I would rather see David Davis as PM, but she is PM ATM so I will support her.

Like most I want more money spent our public services, especially the NHS, but not at the cost of our security and freedoms and, ATM, I feel the tories and their policies are the most likely to do that. I also want to see a fairer society but the way Labour are going about it with policies that will break the bank and put us further in debt is not the way to do it. Corbynis full of promises, like he thinks he has all the answers, but with nothing substantial to back them up in my book. Add that to the security risk I feel he poses I don't want anything to do with him.

I care about the future of my children and their families and with Corbyn and his views I fear for the future for all our children. I feel he cares more about minority groups than the majority of people in this country. There is of course nothing wrong with caring about the less fortunate or excluded in our society but I sometimes feel he takes it to extremes and sees himself, rather arrogantly, as some kind of saviour for all mankind - he us not - and I think this blinds his viewpoint and makes him potentially dangerous - hence his sympathetic views on terrorists.

He seems to see terrorism as some kind of understandable fight against injustice and it isn't. Terrorism is never justified. I think he may have a chip on his shoulder about his privileged upbringing and some kind of 'issue' with the way he was brought up. But then again, like many politicians, maybe he is simply on a power trip, but is better as disguising his motives. Anyway there are too many maybe's in my mind to trust him.

Most of that is pretty reasonable, I suppose. I do think you maybe overlook the dramatic impact that Conservative "over-cutting" could have on public services - I think they have the real potential to do irreversible damage there that will affect everyone at some point, and there are definitely more than a couple of characters high up in the party who are purely self-serving (Johnson, Gove, Hunt, quite honestly May, etc.). If the party could cut out that element, they would be much stronger for it.

In terms of Corbyn I suppose I can appreciate the concern that he might not take external threats seriously enough, for those who see those threats as the most pressing issue we currently face. I genuinely don't, and I think the current "unyielding" approach needs some serious thought in order for truly effective solutions to be found, but I can see why people who think otherwise would find Corbyn worrying. I still maintain though, that the idea that he actively WANTS to see people harmed by terrorist attacks is highly, highly unlikely. I'm sure that at the very least he does believe that he is a pacifist who seeks peace and the most that can be said about that is that he's misguided in how far he's willing to take that (by truly befriending violent individuals - if he indeed has - like I said I'm going to properly look into it at some point for myself because being honest, I haven't much and I'm obviously not interested in what "the papers" have to say about it).

Then or course there is Brexit, God help us if he gets his hands on that, is all I can say. I want the tories for that.

I honestly think Brexit should be a separate issue at this point, it's muddying the waters for one and also, party politics is disrupting the issue. My honest belief is that some sort of cross-party group outside of election politics needs to take over handling the Brexit process or it is going to go absolutely horribly for everyone. We all know it's happening now, everyone wants the best possible outcome... electioneering needs to be kept AWAY from it completely. At the very least, May has to be kept right out of the process. WHether you're a Conservative supporter or not... the bare fact is, she does not have what it takes to go into negotiations with the EU heavy hitters and come away with a good deal for the country. She simply can't do it. She couldn't back when it was looking like she had a huge majorty of the country behind her... and she doesn't even have that to prop her up now. They will never take her seriously.

[Tom4784]

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

You can't have it every way though, a lot has been said about how he is a principled man and has stuck to his beliefs all his life. So, if that were the case, then what he did 20+ years ago is very relevant.

I am a firm believer in democracy, and if enough people vote for him, and bring him to power, then I will accept it, but I won't ever agree with him or support him.

I would never support a Tory led government by May now either, she is damaged goods and needs to go.

If either of the 2 parties genuinely learn anything, it should have been that the country is divided and moving further to the left or right and becoming less rather than more inclusive is not the answer.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

All I can do now is laugh at the sheer refusal to face the facts ....and as much as I dislike the bigoted DUP, their links to terrorism is a drop in the ocean compared to those of the IRA. Further, Arlene Foster wasn't running for British Prime Minister and getting great support, Corbyn was.

Who is being hypocritical again?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

All I can do now is laugh at the sheer refusal to face the facts ....and as much as I dislike the bigoted DUP, their links to terrorism is a drop in the ocean compared to those of the IRA. Further, Arlene Foster wasn't running for British Prime Minister and getting great support, Corbyn was.

Who is being hypocritical again?

A heavy bias is starting to show now here, jet, and it's a real disservice to the measured and balanced posts you were making just yesterday. You've prompted me to pencil in a time to honestly, genuinely and openly look into Corbyn's history with the IRA when I get the time to give it the attention it deserves (currently being intermittently pestered by two bored children).

But your posts today are a world apart and the balance has completely disappeared? It's a shame, is all I'm saying really, and I hope your earlier posts were the genuine ones.

[edited to add] I'm not on a high horse here, I'm no stranger to having my posts dip (or plummet) in quality for emotional reasons. Dunno if anyone has noticed though fingers crossed.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A heavy bias is starting to show now here, jet, and it's a real disservice to the measured and balanced posts you were making just yesterday. You've prompted me to pencil in a time to honestly, genuinely and openly look into Corbyn's history with the IRA when I get the time to give it the attention it deserves (currently being intermittently pestered by two bored children).

But your posts today are a world apart and the balance has completely disappeared? It's a shame, is all I'm saying really, and I hope your earlier posts were the genuine ones.

[edited to add] I'm not on a high horse here, I'm no stranger to having my posts dip (or plummet) in quality for emotional reasons. Dunno if anyone has noticed though fingers crossed.

Yes, I would agree with you that my posts are becoming more emotional and probably just plain bloody minded due to frustration. I have very personal reasons for getting so emotional about Corbyn and I can't expect anyone to feel what I feel, that's impossible and unfair. So if I can't maintain balance I should opt out of the discussion, and I will.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jet

Yes, I would agree with you that my posts are becoming more emotional and probably just plain bloody minded due to frustration. I have very personal reasons for getting so emotional about Corbyn and I can't expect anyone to feel what I feel, that's impossible and unfair. So if I can't maintain balance I should opt out of the discussion, and I will.

A much bigger post than most on here. Hat off to you Jet. But your opinions are as valid as anyone else's, probably more so because of your experience, so please come back.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

Twenty years is really not that long ago, although of course it seems it when you are only in your early twenties - but Corbyn knows Better.

Terrorism is a heinous crime and any sympathy for it, no matter how long ago, can ever be ignored. He has also demonstrated similar views much more recently regarding ISIS so as a supporter of his your own rampant hypocrisy does not go unnoticed.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Twenty years is really not that long ago, although of course it seems it when you are only in your early twenties - but Corbyn knows Better.

Terrorism is a heinous crime and any sympathy for it, no matter how long ago, can ever be ignored. He has also demonstrated similar views much more recently regarding ISIS so as a supporter of his your own rampant hypocrisy does not go unnoticed.

If any of this is true then why hasn't he been forced to resign? People have been outcast from politics for less so, if he truly was a terrorist sympathiser, then how has he managed to stay in politics for so long? It doesn't make much sense if what you are saying is true.

Then again, your definition of 'terrorist sympathiser' has always been a bit wonky, just because he isn't bloodthirsty and values peace over war doesn't make him a terrorist sympathiser.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If any of this is true then why hasn't he been forced to resign? People have been outcast from politics for less so, if he truly was a terrorist sympathiser, then how has he managed to stay in politics for so long? It doesn't make much sense if what you are saying is true.

Then again, your definition of 'terrorist sympathiser' has always been a bit wonky, just because he isn't bloodthirsty and values peace over war doesn't make him a terrorist sympathiser.

What you just said is really important in this discussion. There is a difference between a terrorist sympathiser and a person who has sympathy with a cause. The IRA has fought against British rule in Northern Ireland. Ironic as this may sound, when the British army drove into Northern Ireland, it did so to protect the Catholics. The IRA at that time had no popular support and were tiny in number but within a year of the British Army going in, the discontent against British rule had nationalism grow enormously.

The Nationalists/Republicans have always stood for an independent Ireland. The Loyalists/Unionists want to remain part of the UK. What Corbyn is sympathetic to, is an Irish right to unity, independence and freedom like they have in the rest of Ireland. None of us should be fooled into believing all of Northern Ireland want to live in a duplicated bureaucracy with political solutions effectively imposed upon them and the British state.

And you know what I find really alarming... Most of us Brits know little to nothing about Northern Ireland. It was hammered down our throats in school that the IRA were bad and the Unionists were good. Other than that we are told the words of Reginald Maudling when he flew back from a meeting with Unionist politicians and declared to us all what an awful place Northern Ireland is.

[jet]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'd like to address a few points you have made here in particular:

Not true. Very many Catholics do not want a United Ireland. We have it too good as members of the UK economically. The Irish Republic couldn't afford us. They have enough economic troubles of their own.

Do you not believe in a democratic process, DR? The citizens of N.Ireland will have a United Ireland when they vote democratically for it, they have always had that choice. To date, the majority of N.Irish citizens do not want a United Ireland and that is why we are still part of the UK.

Corbyn, like the IRA, doesn't believe in democracy and the ballot box for N.Ireland and that is why he was sympathetic to the IRA trying to achieve what the majority didn't want by bombing and killing their way out.
When eventually they realised violence was never going to achieve their goal, they entered into Good Friday Agreement with the Unionists.

.

[/QUOTE]

[joeysteele]

You'd never guess coming to this page that this is a thread made about a Con MP stating that Mrs May has to go this year.

What has been done is sidetrack it onto Corbyn and spout off things all covered in the election and before from a personal hate perspective only.
Quoting the Mail and Express for goodness sake.

Anyway,has anyone any real thoughts on what the Con MP said as to Mrs May having to go backed up by Anna Soubry too today too.
Rather than hide the failure of Mrs May and the mess she has brought to govt.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You'd never guess coming to this page that this is a thread made about a Con MP stating that Mrs May has to go this year.

What has been done is sidetrack it onto Corbyn and spout off things all covered in the election and before from a personal hate perspective only.
Quoting the Mail and Express for goodness sake.

Anyway,has anyone any real thoughts on what the Con MP said as to Mrs May having to go backed up by Anna Soubry too today too.
Rather than hide the failure of Mrs May and the mess she has brought to govt.

There were 3 sources all saying the same thing so what a moot point. Besides I did a check on the Express for it's bias and it was classed as centre right, from memory, and a newspaper known for producing fact based articles - but don't let your own bias get in the way of that.

[user104658]

Don't you quote me with your reasonableness Ms Ammi I'm the one on this thread already saying that it's not all black and white.

[bots]

Given that Corbyn was preaching anti austerity and he was basically handing out £10 notes, people did vote because he was giving out free money. That was the whole platform that he stood on. To suggest anything else is pure denial.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Given that Corbyn was preaching anti austerity and he was basically handing out £10 notes, people did vote because he was giving out free money. That was the whole platform that he stood on. To suggest anything else is pure denial.

What a gross over-simplification of anti-austerity philosophy

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What a gross over-simplification of anti-austerity philosophy

Indeed.

[Brillopad]

Corbyn will forever be known as the desperate man that buys votes from the young.

[Vicky.]

It is so ****ing patronizing to assume the young only voted for 'free sweeties' and stuff. Incredibly patronizing. Almost as if people believe the young cannot see beyond uni fees and stuff. When infact most won't even benefit from that. Unless you class sorting the NHS out, rehiring police officers and such 'freebies' in which case thats rather strange tbh.

The young cannot win tbh. They don't vote 'they cannot be arsed to get out of bed'. They do vote and its just so they can go to uni free and they have been manipulated...

The level of hatred displayed for young people over this election is shocking tbh. These are the people who will be paying our pensions and stuff before long. A little respect wouldn't go amiss.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

It is so ****ing patronizing to assume the young only voted for 'free sweeties' and stuff. Incredibly patronizing. Almost as if people believe the young cannot see beyond uni fees and stuff. When infact most won't even benefit from that. Unless you class sorting the NHS out, rehiring police officers and such 'freebies' in which case thats rather strange tbh.

The young cannot win tbh. They don't vote 'they cannot be arsed to get out of bed'. They do vote and its just so they can go to uni free and they have been manipulated...

The level of hatred displayed for young people over this election is shocking tbh. These are the people who will be paying our pensions and stuff before long. A little respect wouldn't go amiss.

****ing PREACH.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

****ing PREACH.

Well its true. Its going on everywhere now, this hatred of the young as apparently they stopped May getting her majority and have thus purposely ****ed the country?! After people were taking the piss saying young people wouldn't get off their computers or get out of bed to vote...you know, as they are all so lazy and useless...Its so weird.

Youngsters are getting such a bashing everywhere. Accusations of them being easily manipulated, voting Labour for 'likes' and so on. best reply I have seen yet is this, and its so true.

You know it's rare I think ageism truly exists and then I see threads like this. You said young people were too lazy to get off our arses and vote. Election after election, young people are criticised for the lack of engagement in politics. Then we turn out to vote and suddenly we're too naïve to know what we want. We want freebies. Best of all, we're doing it for the social media likes.

Just how ****ing thick do you think we are? This is mumsnet but I'd be surprised if half of the people spouting this ****e know anyone in the 18-30 age range. Too committed to the image of us lurking around council estates with phones we nicked, getting teenage pregnant and defying our ASBOs no doubt.

Unfortunately what you don't realise is that we came of age during 9/11. My peers have been debating and discussing the war on terror, Israel/Palestine, the Arab spring etc since we were just entering high school. Our universities are political hotbeds and genres like grime are bringing these discussions to previously disenfranchised groups such as young black men (see iconic clip of young guy saying he won't vote for TM because "she's clapped. On top of that, her policies are dead." grin ) if you think young people are interested in nothing but the hashtag, I suggest you go out and meet some ****ing young people (plus what's to stop us just saying #votelabour and not even voting? We showed up.)

For most 18-30s we already have paid our tuition fees. Half of us will be paying £9,000 and were too young to even get a vote on that. In my age range there was a leave/remain mix, and those of us who wanted to remain had the very same arguments as 30+. But voting for Corbyn went beyond that. They gave us policies and a man we could believe in. If you think any other Labour Party could have engaged young people across the board I invite you to name them.

Finally, you do a massive disservice to the many young campaigners who did a fantastic job getting out there, campaigning, hitting doorsteps and so on. There was a massive social media coup, and the campaigners helped translate those likes of funny memes into real time votes.

But it's nice to know the generation that raised us has such a low opinion of us. Wow.

Another point is that many of my age range are young teachers and new NHS workers who are unhappy with the direction those services are taking and have voted in opposition to the tory policies, not on some pie in the sky liberalism leftie-ism. Their views echo my mothers who worked for 20+ years in education, always voted labour despite not being very left (think old school WC) and was dismayed by the what the education system was becoming. 18-30 or even 18-25 encompasses students voting in their first election to those of us who are paying back our student loans (so have no personal benefit in fee abolition) and paying into pensions or even with children and mortgages of our own.

But you know, we're lazy when we don't vote and too thick to know what's good for us when we do vote. What a glowing testimonial of the generation your generation raised.

Same person for both obviously.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

****ing PREACH.

And what were you saying about older voters just recently - something abot them being decrepid.

You have shown a distain for older voters on many occasions. In fact you have shown an unhealthy disdain for the majority of voters calling them stupid and easily led, being the expert on such matters as you seem to think you are.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And what were you saying about older voters just recently - something abot them being decrepid.

You have shown a distain for older voters on many occasions. In fact you have shown an unhealthy disdain for the majority of voters calling them stupid and easily led, being the expert on such matters as you seem to think you are.

I have seen so many of your posts in here saying that too. Only directed at labour voters though naturally No doubt a young person who voted for May would be fine. Its the other lazy useless bastards that are the problem...why on earth did they drag themselves from their pits to cross a box on a piece of paper I mean, its only their lives too that being affected by this. They should leave the important stuff to older people as they clearly know nothing (despite a hell of a lot of 'youngsters' knowing a lot more about politics than your average person)