[vesavius]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others

I 100% agree with the first part and I haven't said anything different here.

On the second part, we all judge each other continuously every day.

The entire model of Big Brother is built on that reality.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

[Glenn.]

I think people need to keep their noses out of other people’s fertility issues. Unless of course it concerns them directly.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

I think people need to keep their noses out of other people’s fertility issues. Unless of course it concerns them directly.

I think that if you broadcast it on TV for the world to see that it becomes fair game for open discussion.

What else is the show even for?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

I tried to get pregnant for 5 years and nothing, had tests and stuff..found a cyst on my ovary but nothing else. Got pregnant finally and had a miscarriage at 8 weeks. Then got pregnant again a month after that with Skye. Then James a few months after having Skye. l never found out what was wrong but thankfully it didn't matter anymore. I feel for anyone going through this and I disagree that 'just adopt' is a great answer. Sounds selfish but I wanted one that was biologically mine

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I tried to get pregnant for 5 years and nothing, had tests and stuff..found a cyst on my ovary but nothing else. Got pregnant finally and had a miscarriage at 8 weeks. Then got pregnant again a month after that with Skye. Then James a few months after having Skye. l never found out what was wrong but thankfully it didn't matter anymore. I feel for anyone going through this and I disagree that 'just adopt' is a great answer. Sounds selfish but I wanted one that was biologically mine

I feel people are misunderstanding what I have been saying.

My point is that, IMO, the money spent forcing such a thing could be better spent improving the life of a child with no home and that choosing to spend that money on personal wants over the needs of a child doesn't feel right to me personally.

It doesn't sound like what I have been saying would fit your case at all?

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I think that if you broadcast it on TV for the world to see that it becomes fair game for open discussion.

What else is the show even for?

A passing remark about eggs was the cause for a transphobic thread to be made. As far as I’m concerned it’s just a way to be ignorant.

Zelahs fertility is no one’s business and certainly not the OP who does not care one jote. Just another dig at trans people.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

A passing remark about eggs was the cause for a transphobic thread to be made. As far as I’m concerned it’s just a way to be ignorant.

Zelahs fertility is no one’s business and certainly not the OP who does not care one jote. Just another dig at trans people.

So you responded to that perception with a solid dose of heterophobia?

ok...

Not sure you are decreasing the ignorance here really.

Ze's fertility became everyone's business as soon as they talked about it on Big Brother. You don't get to be the big boss and pick and choose what we talk about regarding the show.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I feel people are misunderstanding what I have been saying.

My point is that, IMO, the money spent forcing such a thing could be better spent improving the life of a child with no home and that choosing to spend that money on personal wants over the needs of a child doesn't feel right to me personally.

It doesn't sound like what I have been saying would fit your case at all?

Yes the money could be spent giving a kid a good life, but you could apply that to anything? Why go on an expensive holiday, you could donate to food banks around the country to help others. And so on

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes the money could be spent giving a kid a good life, but you could apply that to anything? Why go on an expensive holiday, you could donate to food banks around the country to help others. And so on

Someone that chose to donate money to, say, help a child rather than go on holiday would get all my love.

I love it when wealthy people choose to make the world better for others.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Someone that chose to donate money to, say, help a child rather than go on holiday would get all my love.

I love it when wealthy people make the world better for others.

Yea I agree with that actually

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yea I agree with that actually

It's basically at the core of everything I have been saying here

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

……you’re the person that I’ve most been thinking about in this conversation also…my son and his partner also had fertility treatment intervention as well to conceive…

…I think that it was Niamh that said this is such a layered and wider debate and it is…adopting a baby is something that isn’t alway possible/an option and interestingly in this season of BB we have Elsa who was adopted as a three year old and that older child can have very specific parenting requirements as their childhood trauma/memories can have such an impact on their behaviour…and it’s a bit of a circle situation, isn’t it ….because the very reason that they are open for adoption is often because of parenting that was unable to care for, so the importance of having adopted parenting that can cater for that child’s specific individual needs and issues, is another layer of complexity…

…..BBxX and Vesavius, you’re both two posters that I do love to see discussing these more complex and layered topics as well because you do both approach differently in your mindsets and thoughts but you both equally make very interesting and considered points…and that gets us all listening…(…and learning and thinking…)…which is the perfect thing in a talking forum such as this…..

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Ammi

BBxX and Vesavius, you’re both two posters that I do love to see discussing these more complex and layered topics as well because you do both approach differently in your mindsets and thoughts but you both equally make very interesting and considered points…and that gets us all listening…(…and learning and thinking…)…which is the perfect thing in a talking forum such as this…..

Thanks.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is a bad person from this, I have no issues with BBXX here because they see it differently. Disagreeing is fine

[vesavius]

On a related note... What would make it hard for Ze to conceive if the testosterone hasn't made their egg infertile?

Can anyone tell me in layman's terms?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by vesavius

On a related note... What would make it hard for Ze to conceive if the testosterone hasn't made their egg infertile?

Can anyone tell me in layman's terms?

Theoretically, I think Ze should be able to conceive a baby and carry one but I think (and obviously don't know for sure) that Zelah wants his partner to carry the child as he feels like a man and so therefore wouldn't want to actually be pregnant but would like to be genetically linked to a child.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Theoretically, I think Ze should be able to conceive a baby and carry one but I think (and obviously don't know for sure) that Zelah wants his partner to carry the child as he feels like a man and so therefore wouldn't want to actually be pregnant but would like to be genetically linked to a child.

ahh ok, I see, thanks

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by vesavius

So you responded to that perception with a solid dose of heterophobia?

ok...

Not sure you are decreasing the ignorance here really.

Ze's fertility became everyone's business as soon as they talked about it on Big Brother. You don't get to be the big boss and pick and choose what we talk about regarding the show.

I get to call out the transphobia. Regardless of anything, such a deep discussion, rooted in transphobia isn’t necessary.

[Beso]

So ze wants his eggs inside his partner, and then someone has sex to impregnate his partner...

Her a lesbian, forced to have sex with a man, and carry 2 peoples child for nine months...


All sounds very selfish of ze, he seems to be the only one winning here!

And of course the no strings attached sex for the stranger.

[Glenn.]

Jesus Christ people need educating.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Beso

So ze wants his eggs inside his partner, and then someone has sex to impregnate his partner...

Her a lesbian, forced to have sex with a man, and carry 2 peoples child for nine months...


All sounds very selfish of ze, he seems to be the only one winning here!

And of course the no strings attached sex for the stranger.

..no sex required, that's not how IVF works..

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

I get to call out the transphobia. Regardless of anything, such a deep discussion, rooted in transphobia isn’t necessary.

I mean, you can call out perceived transphobia (which I find weird when you are happily to be as equally bigoted as you think others are in the very same thread) all day long, but it doesn't make it true.

But, anyhow, the conversation has happened, so what now?

Can we just note your objection and move on?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Jesus Christ people need educating.

Can't say i care enough to look deeper into it.

[Beso]

I take it this isn't free on the NHS

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Beso

Can't say i care enough to look deeper into it.

Obviously. Not at all surprised though given your track record