[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

What is obvious to me is that the mindset that blames a lack of integration on non-Muslims alone without any mention of the role Muslims play in that is without credibility.

Many Muslims alienate themselves by their own actions and refusal to integrate into Western society - that is their choice and their responsibility. Why do you always try to make it a non-Muslim Problem - it isn't.

And whilst you continue to insist it is the evil 'racists' that are to blame for all the problems and not holding the Muslim community to account in any way for their attitudes and part to play in these problems - it's all a crock of pointless s***e.

But the question is why is it different in other countries, why aren't they having the same problems (to the same degree) with their own migrant Muslim communities.

We have already established as fact that it's not because "they haven't let them in" - there are more Muslim immigrants in the US than there are in the UK - and so, why do YOU think they seem to have fewer problems? Are they different Muslims, from different places? No, they are from the same countries as the Muslim migrants who come to the UK...

So if it's the same people, from the same countries, and there are more of them in the US than there are in the UK, and yet (by your own statement) they don't seem to have the same problems with radical Islam... But you claim that this has nothing to do with actions and attitudes in the host nation... Then pray tell Brillo - what is it? What is the difference?

I know what you WANT to be able to say, and that's "they don't let them in". But that is simply false. The numbers are available, and it is just quite simply not correct. So... If you will take a second away from your busy schedule of poo-pooing other people's suggestions, I would love to hear your own, personal, original thoughts on why you think there is a difference.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sure plenty of them do? Just like plenty of non-immigrants do. There's a big difference between someone that sees the problems caused by western interference and the middle east, and a radicalized religious extremist. The point is that people who feel welcomed and accepted in their host countries are far less likely to want to harm anyone there, or to feel frustrated and outcast enough to turn to extremist rhetoric for answers, than those who are demonized and ostracized. That should surely be pretty obvious?

I literally don't see that, diversity is very much encouraged, it is taught in schools, they celebrate Eid and other religious festivals, the kids get days off to celebrate while the schools remain open to other kids (only for Eid and Diwali), I think London at any rate bends over backwards to integrate minorities, these guys were British born, they would have gone to same type of school as my kids where 95 per cent of the school community were black or Asian so how can you say they feel isolated? my kids who were in the minority and I could upload school photos of their secondary school year groups where they were one of the few white faces, they didn't have an issue with being white in an practically all Asian school and neither did I or their Dad, my community is probably 70/30 Asian, once again and I agree with Brillo here you are blaming society when you should be blaming evil and desire to be in control from a minority.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I literally don't see that, diversity is very much encouraged, it is taught in schools, they celebrate Eid and other religious festivals, the kids get days off to celebrate while the schools remain open to other kids (only for Eid and Diwali), I think London at any rate bends over backwards to integrate minorities, these guys were British born, they would have gone to same type of school as my kids where 95 per cent of the school community were black or Asian so how can you say they feel isolated? my kids who were in the minority and I could upload school photos of their secondary school year groups where they were one of the few white faces, they didn't have an issue with being white in an practically all Asian school and neither did I or their Dad, my community is probably 70/30 Asian, once again and I agree with Brillo here you are blaming society when you should be blaming evil and desire to be in control from a minority.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I literally don't see that, diversity is very much encouraged, it is taught in schools, they celebrate Eid and other religious festivals, the kids get days off to celebrate while the schools remain open to other kids (only for Eid and Diwali), I think London at any rate bends over backwards to integrate minorities, these guys were British born, they would have gone to same type of school as my kids where 95 per cent of the school community were black or Asian so how can you say they feel isolated? my kids who were in the minority and I could upload school photos of their secondary school year groups where they were one of the few white faces, they didn't have an issue with being white in an practically all Asian school and neither did I or their Dad, my community is probably 70/30 Asian, once again and I agree with Brillo here you are blaming society when you should be blaming evil and desire to be in control from a minority.

All I can do is ask you the same question I just asked Brillo;

So if it's the same people, from the same countries, and there are more of them in the US than there are in the UK, and yet (by your own statement) they don't seem to have the same problems with radical Islam... But you claim that this has nothing to do with actions and attitudes in the host nation... Then pray tell Brillo - what is it? What is the difference?

I know what you WANT to be able to say, and that's "they don't let them in". But that is simply false. The numbers are available, and it is just quite simply not correct. So... If you will take a second away from your busy schedule of poo-pooing other people's suggestions, I would love to hear your own, personal, original thoughts on why you think there is a difference.

You have plenty to say when it comes to reading posts and saying "that's not the case", but the question I've been attempting to address is "Why is there a difference between Muslims in certain other countries and Muslims in the UK; why doe some seem to have fewer problems".

Your answer, that it's just an inherent problem with a random minority taking control of others, doesn't make sense as an answer to that question. So in your opinion; why is there a difference?

To be fair I'm not sure if you've said that you think there is one, you might think that all countries are having the same issues. But Brillo did outright state that not all countries are having the problems the UK is having.

IF that is true - there is only ONE variable. The country itself. That is literally the only answer there can be, in my opinion, and by the rules of formal logic.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

All I can do is ask you the same question I just asked Brillo;



You have plenty to say when it comes to reading posts and saying "that's not the case", but the question I've been attempting to address is "Why is there a difference between Muslims in certain other countries and Muslims in the UK; why doe some seem to have fewer problems".

Your answer, that it's just an inherent problem with a random minority taking control of others, doesn't make sense as an answer to that question. So in your opinion; why is there a difference?

To be fair I'm not sure if you've said that you think there is one, you might think that all countries are having the same issues. But Brillo did outright state that not all countries are having the problems the UK is having.

IF that is true - there is only ONE variable. The country itself. That is literally the only answer there can be, in my opinion, and by the rules of formal logic.

Our problem is being too lenient and accepting? I mean one of these guys was a C4 docu about the Jihadi next door, how did that even happen? was it assumed because he was so out in the open about it that he was like a reality star looking for 5 minute of fame...oh look at him with his outrageous views and Isis flag...its just too cute...

All I see is you making excuses, maybe there in lies the problem? too many liberals making excuses...? I consider myself quite liberal but in my view there is nothing that happens in society that justifies people knifing people on a night out whether that be as part of a gang or as in this case to cause terror there is just no excuses to be made, we don't make excuses for other murderers, I don't know how we can even begin to make excuses for these people, first it was our fault for getting involved in war, now its own our fault for not doing enough to integrate people, English as a second language is taught in every College around me and its generally free! , as Brillo pointed out some people don't want to integrate they are happy to live in their own communities and not embrace the wider community

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Our problem is being too lenient and accepting? I mean one of these guys was a C4 docu about the Jihadi next door, how did that even happen? was it assumed because he was so out in the open about it that he was like a reality star looking for 5 minute of fame...oh look at him with his outrageous views and Isis flag...its just too cute...

But Maru has already explained that in the US, free speech means free speech, and so hate preaching is straight up "allowed" there. doesn't seem to be adding up.

All I see is you making excuses, maybe there in lies the problem? too many liberals making excuses...? I consider myself quite liberal but in my view there is nothing that happens in society that justifies people knifing people on a night out whether that be as part of a gang or as in this case to cause terror there is just no excuses to be made, we don't make excuses for other murderers, I don't know how we can even begin to make excuses for these people, first it was our fault for getting involved in war, now its own our fault for not doing enough to integrate people, English as a second language is taught in every College around me and its generally free!

If you see me making excuses then there is very little point in continuing the discussion because you're arguing against something that isn't happening. I am not making excuses or justifying killings. I am (fruitlessly) trying to get at the root of why these attacks happen so that we (as a society, not us personally on TiBB) might actually stand a chance of reducing the number of attacks and deaths. Unlike most, it seems, I'm not willing to stand stomping my feet, raging into the thunderstorm, screaming at it to "cut it out". All you can see is "excuses"; I feel this is an emotional response. It's not about excuses. Understanding the causes is not about making excuses for those who have already killed - it's about finding solutions to stop more killing. What do people not understand about that? What does anyone actually get out of just mindlessly screeching "BUT I AM ANGRY ABOUT THIS!"? We are all angry. But anger isn't helpful. Directing anger at a community will result in a backlash, will result in young alienated members of that community looking for a sense of belonging elsewhere, and finding a preacher saying "Come over here! You're welcome here!". It's not even complicated, I honestly can't comprehend why people just don't "get it" yet.

as Brillo pointed out some people don't want to integrate they are happy to live in their own communities and not embrace the wider community

But WHY. WHY Cherie. WHY don't they want to integrate, WHY don't they want to embrace the wider community, when as we have discussed, there are countries with immigrants from the same places where they do not have the same problem to the same extent. Stop just "saying stuff that is" and start thinking about the reasons!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But Maru has already explained that in the US, free speech means free speech, and so hate preaching is straight up "allowed" there. doesn't seem to be adding up.



If you see me making excuses then there is very little point in continuing the discussion because you're arguing against something that isn't happening. I am not making excuses or justifying killings. I am (fruitlessly) trying to get at the root of why these attacks happen so that we (as a society, not us personally on TiBB) might actually stand a chance of reducing the number of attacks and deaths. Unlike most, it seems, I'm not willing to stand stomping my feet, raging into the thunderstorm, screaming at it to "cut it out". All you can see is "excuses"; I feel this is an emotional response. It's not about excuses. Understanding the causes is not about making excuses for those who have already killed - it's about finding solutions to stop more killing. What do people not understand about that? What does anyone actually get out of just mindlessly screeching "BUT I AM ANGRY ABOUT THIS!"? We are all angry. But anger isn't helpful. Directing anger at a community will result in a backlash, will result in young alienated members of that community looking for a sense of belonging elsewhere, and finding a preacher saying "Come over here! You're welcome here!". It's not even complicated, I honestly can't comprehend why people just don't "get it" yet.



But WHY. WHY Cherie. WHY don't they want to integrate, WHY don't they want to embrace the wider community, when as we have discussed, there are countries with immigrants from the same places where they do not have the same problem to the same extent. Stop just "saying stuff that is" and start thinking about the reasons!

Free speech might be allowed yes but there are much stricter laws around entry and deportation, you have to jump though so many hoops to get into the USA maybe they appreciate it more and extreme views are not tolerated as they are here?


The older community not wanting to integrate is a combination of things they are very family orientated for starters, they also have larger families so more children/grandchildren, some don't speak English, observation of cultural beliefs, i work with two young muslim women one university educated who will only swim in sessions arranged for muslim females? its kind of no different to your average Paddy who came over here in the 50s and spent his time in Irish Clubs and bars to my mind but no one is having a fit about why that happened.

Do you honestly think the C4 docu would have aired in the States ? the American people wouldn't stand for it

[Smithy]

Wow maybe if you banned guns, people wouldn't keep getting ****ing shot

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But WHY. WHY Cherie. WHY don't they want to integrate, WHY don't they want to embrace the wider community, when as we have discussed, there are countries with immigrants from the same places where they do not have the same problem to the same extent. Stop just "saying stuff that is" and start thinking about the reasons!

I have been watching the forum debate with interest.

The simplistic answer to why they don't want to integrate is because they want to retain their beliefs and way of life, but take advantage of the better standard of living that the UK offers them. Best of both worlds to their minds

The people of the UK have always been welcoming to immigrants. So, I do not accept any suggestion that we don't welcome people from other cultures, it's just not true.

Enoch Powell was a hateful man, he was viewed with scorn for the views he held all those years ago. I know, I was around at the time. I also know that he was persistent in his hate, and he used the tried and tested method of debate by taking something that had the smallest grain of truth in it, twisting it, taking it out of context, to fit his agenda. Its a standard trick, that I see many on this forum using over and over again day in, day out.

I am more right leaning politically than anything, but that doesn't mean that everything Corbyn comes out with is wrong, it doesn't mean that everything May says is correct. Take one look at this forum and you would think that there are few more detestable people on the planet Across the 2 main parties 99% of them have good intentions, well meant, they just have different views on how things should be approached. These are highly complex issues, the reality of which is that there isn't a 1 solution fits all scenario

Over and out

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Wow maybe if you banned guns, people wouldn't keep getting ****ing shot

It's so transparent why they don't ban guns or Muslims from Saudi Arabia........ green is the only colour that matters to Trump and his big wig friends

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I have been watching the forum debate with interest.

The simplistic answer to why they don't want to integrate is because they want to retain their beliefs and way of life, but take advantage of the better standard of living that the UK offers them. Best of both worlds to their minds

The people of the UK have always been welcoming to immigrants. So, I do not accept any suggestion that we don't welcome people from other cultures, it's just not true.

Enoch Powell was a hateful man, he was viewed with scorn for the views he held all those years ago. I know, I was around at the time. I also know that he was persistent in his hate, and he used the tried and tested method of debate by taking something that had the smallest grain of truth in it, twisting it, taking it out of context, to fit his agenda. Its a standard trick, that I see many on this forum using over and over again day in, day out.

I am more right leaning politically than anything, but that doesn't mean that everything Corbyn comes out with is wrong, it doesn't mean that everything May says is correct. Take one look at this forum and you would think that there are few more detestable people on the planet Across the 2 main parties 99% of them have good intentions, well meant, they just have different views on how things should be approached. These are highly complex issues, the reality of which is that there isn't a 1 solution fits all scenario

Over and out

Welcome back bitontheslide,great post

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I have been watching the forum debate with interest.

The simplistic answer to why they don't want to integrate is because they want to retain their beliefs and way of life, but take advantage of the better standard of living that the UK offers them. Best of both worlds to their minds

The people of the UK have always been welcoming to immigrants. So, I do not accept any suggestion that we don't welcome people from other cultures, it's just not true.

Enoch Powell was a hateful man, he was viewed with scorn for the views he held all those years ago. I know, I was around at the time. I also know that he was persistent in his hate, and he used the tried and tested method of debate by taking something that had the smallest grain of truth in it, twisting it, taking it out of context, to fit his agenda. Its a standard trick, that I see many on this forum using over and over again day in, day out.

I am more right leaning politically than anything, but that doesn't mean that everything Corbyn comes out with is wrong, it doesn't mean that everything May says is correct. Take one look at this forum and you would think that there are few more detestable people on the planet Across the 2 main parties 99% of them have good intentions, well meant, they just have different views on how things should be approached. These are highly complex issues, the reality of which is that there isn't a 1 solution fits all scenario

Over and out

Good to see you back BOTS

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Free speech might be allowed yes but there are much stricter laws around entry and deportation, you have to jump though so many hoops to get into the USA maybe they appreciate it more and extreme views are not tolerated as they are here?


The older community not wanting to integrate is a combination of things they are very family orientated for starters, they also have larger families so more children/grandchildren, some don't speak English, observation of cultural beliefs, i work with two young muslim women one university educated who will only swim in sessions arranged for muslim females? its kind of no different to your average Paddy who came over here in the 50s and spent his time in Irish Clubs and bars to my mind but no one is having a fit about why that happened.

Do you honestly think the C4 docu would have aired in the States ? the American people wouldn't stand for it

Extreme views..So what was that about free speech, you're allowed free speech as long as you're a white American?

People are just as likely to be marginalised and disenfranchised there as here, they are as likely to be lured in by extremists or be affected by the bombing campaigns in Syria, Libya or Afghanistan that kill civilians.

We know why the Irish stuck together, because of the prejudice (it happens if you're white too allegedly)

The Americans stood for the KKK there are countless documentaries on them, and they've killed thousands over the years.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The simplistic answer to why they don't want to integrate is because they want to retain their beliefs and way of life, but take advantage of the better standard of living that the UK offers them. Best of both worlds to their minds.

And this is apparently different in other countries that migrant Muslims move to, where they are better integrated, because _________________ .

?

This is a question I've now asked 4 or 5 times and there's only been one vague attempt by anyone to answer it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Our problem is being too lenient and accepting? I mean one of these guys was a C4 docu about the Jihadi next door, how did that even happen? was it assumed because he was so out in the open about it that he was like a reality star looking for 5 minute of fame...oh look at him with his outrageous views and Isis flag...its just too cute...

All I see is you making excuses, maybe there in lies the problem? too many liberals making excuses...? I consider myself quite liberal but in my view there is nothing that happens in society that justifies people knifing people on a night out whether that be as part of a gang or as in this case to cause terror there is just no excuses to be made, we don't make excuses for other murderers, I don't know how we can even begin to make excuses for these people, first it was our fault for getting involved in war, now its own our fault for not doing enough to integrate people, English as a second language is taught in every College around me and its generally free! , as Brillo pointed out some people don't want to integrate they are happy to live in their own communities and not embrace the wider community

Liberals making excuses?... What do you want people to do, this man was literally shouting his hate from the rooftops, he was known the community knew, they were banned from mosques and reported with increasing regularity, we were not failed by anyone other than those whose job it was to protect us.
That's not to say I blame the police or security services either as we have heard they are stretched to the limit, it is time to blame the cuts to counter terrorism and community policing falls under that umbrella.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Extreme views..So what was that about free speech, you're allowed free speech as long as you're a white American?

People are just as likely to be marginalised and disenfranchised there as here, they are as likely to be lured in by extremists or be affected by the bombing campaigns in Syria, Libya or Afghanistan that kill civilians.

We know why the Irish stuck together, because of the prejudice (it happens if you're white too allegedly)

The Americans stood for the KKK there are countless documentaries on them, and they've killed thousands over the years.

I get a bit sick all these excuses, many, many people throughout the world are marginalised and disenfranchised for many different reasons but they don't all go round hating and murdering anyone they think is to blame, anyone who is not one of them.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I get a bit sick all these excuses, many, many people throughout the world are marginalised and disenfranchised for many different reasons but they don't all go round hating and murdering anyone they think is to blame, anyone who is not one of them.

One of them? ISIS murder more Muslims than anyone else. :/

So who are 'them'?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

One of them? ISIS murder more Muslims than anyone else. :/

So who are 'them'?

I presume 'them' are ISIS,Kizzy

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I get a bit sick all these excuses, many, many people throughout the world are marginalised and disenfranchised for many different reasons but they don't all go round hating and murdering anyone they think is to blame, anyone who is not one of them.

And should there be terror organisations waiting to exploit other groups then we might find others turning to murder.

Far right groups for instance pray on those who are weak, of low intelligence and emotionally unstable to spread hate against those they perceive to be a scourge on society, don't they?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I presume 'them' are ISIS,Kizzy

Ahh, the part where we all pretend to believe that when Brillo says "them" she means "ISIS" and not "Muslim people". Yawn. I have no idea why we have to play these games... zero in the way of real discussion to be had here.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But the question is why is it different in other countries, why aren't they having the same problems (to the same degree) with their own migrant Muslim communities.

We have already established as fact that it's not because "they haven't let them in" - there are more Muslim immigrants in the US than there are in the UK - and so, why do YOU think they seem to have fewer problems? Are they different Muslims, from different places? No, they are from the same countries as the Muslim migrants who come to the UK...

So if it's the same people, from the same countries, and there are more of them in the US than there are in the UK, and yet (by your own statement) they don't seem to have the same problems with radical Islam... But you claim that this has nothing to do with actions and attitudes in the host nation... Then pray tell Brillo - what is it? What is the difference?

I know what you WANT to be able to say, and that's "they don't let them in". But that is simply false. The numbers are available, and it is just quite simply not correct. So... If you will take a second away from your busy schedule of poo-pooing other people's suggestions, I would love to hear your own, personal, original thoughts on why you think there is a difference.

Muslims are around 1% of the US population and i'd bet that the majority aren't crammed together in little ghettos.
They make up 4.4% of the UK.
Now look at other countries other than the US.
France,Belgium,Germany,Sweden,Italy,Greece.

I'm not an 'all muslims are a problem' kind o guy
but i think we do have to accept that they do bring ideological problems along with them.
Islam is opposed to western culture.Most muslims manage to somehow reconcile that with living in the west but there is that small section who don't and are more susceptible to radicalisation.
I'm not discounting that the groomers use our foreign policy as a cherry on top to help them get people to their way of thinking too but it is an ideology that is the core of the problem imo.

[Northern Monkey]

Imagine how confusing it must be for a strict young muslim in Britain.Your scripture is telling you one way to live and the culture all around you and the laws of the land are showing you something totally opposite.It's no wonder they're easy pickings for Islamists to get their claws into.

[Vicky.]

So how would we have prevented the Manchester attack given the bomber entered the UK via a vagina? And more importantly, should we send him back where he came from?

A Muslim ban is stupid. Where do those born here go? Even taking out of the equation those born here, MOST Muslims are not Very Bad People. To tar them all with the same brush is just breeding hatred...but Trump won the entire election on that so I guess why would he change it now...

So yup...Muslim ban is still ****ing ridiculous. Sorry.

(Note. Not sure where the recent attackers were 'from' so used Manchester instead as I know for sure he was British born)

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

So how would we have prevented the Manchester attack given the bomber entered the UK via a vagina? And more importantly, should we send him back where he came from?

A Muslim ban is stupid. Where do those born here go? Even taking out of the equation those born here, MOST Muslims are not Very Bad People. To tar them all with the same brush is just breeding hatred...but Trump won the entire election on that so I guess why would he change it now...

So yup...Muslim ban is still ****ing ridiculous. Sorry.

(Note. Not sure where the recent attackers were 'from' so used Manchester instead as I know for sure he was British born)

Was'nt the Manchester bomber back and forth to Libya though visiting his dad who was here and went to live back there in the nineties to fight Gadaffi.Also he was part of an anti Gadaffi turned Islamist extremist cell.I think we should've spotted him as a threat tbh.There needs to be some kind of solution if we don't have the resources to monitor these feckers.Maybe this guy could've been sent to Libya with his dad if he was a known threat.It's either that or locking them up but that requires more prisons and segregation from general population because atm even white British are being forcefully(or by choice)radicalised in our prisons.Growing beards and converting.
The recent ones were Moroccan and other nationalities i believe.One living in Italy,one Ireland and one somewhere else i think.

[Vicky.]

We should have had him down as a notable threat for sure.

I am a weird lefty, as I do think that if people chose to go fight in Syria or whatever no matter which 'side' they claim to be on, they shouldn't be allowed back. In the current climate anyway. Its just too dangerous for everyone else. Though quite where we would expect them to live out there if they are born here or have lived here for a long time and don't have a parent or whatever there I don't know. Haven't got that far yet

Plus it kind of, penalizes those who genuinely are going to help fight against ISIS.

I also think anyone imprisoned on terror offenses should be put in solitary. Human rights, blahblahblah, but if you are in there for terrorism, leave your 'right' to convert other prisoners at the ****ing door tbh.