Boris has asked the Queen to suspend Parliment, The Queen has now approved

[Kazanne]

I think you'll find it was the European court of human rights, which ruled on the Bulger case.
The ECHR is not the EU court.


The ECHR we have been signed up to since the 50s..
Over 40 Nations are signed up to it.
Even Russia I think.
We'd still be in that when we leave the EU.
We were in it, even before joining the Common Market in the 70s


The EU court, is the European court of justice.
Of which only EU members are part of and subject to.
That's the one we would leave.

Thanks for the info Joey,I didn't know that.I thought they were part of it

[joeysteele]

Thanks for the info Joey,I didn't know that.I thought they were part of it

Kazanne, I think most people do.
I had confusion on it but it was when looking over my notes from Uni I did on special poor Jamie's brutal murder.
Bless him.

Where I read it was the European court of Human rights who heard his case.
Then gave that shocking ruling.

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/_Xch41wKKcTEYJlMRSQqWQ/https/media.fyre.co/X0wguK7EQbW6hKhwPKpA_express.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/inbHlDxkriSx4EclnTMlPw/https/media.fyre.co/vlRQhiTpSg9jTwanpzWw_teleg.JPG

[arista]

Last night Newsnight BBC2HD
Nick Watt
Order of Council via Privy Council
Johnson PM can suspend the Act of Parliament
Halting any Extension.

[arista]

1177267716769624065


Video : Cocky Labour MP Walks over
to Adviser Dominic Cummings
: Dom tells him to Get Brexit Done
Next to Cummings is a Ch4HDNews reporter

https://news.sky.com/video/mp-confronts-pms-adviser-over-death-threats-11820373

[bots]

the death threats toward MP's started long before Boris became PM, so lets not start laying the blame at his table. There was a lot wrong with May, but she never incited anything close to violence and yet the problem was just as bad then as it is now.

[Toy Soldier]

the death threats toward MP's started long before Boris became PM, so lets not start laying the blame at his table. There was a lot wrong with May, but she never incited anything close to violence and yet the problem was just as bad then as it is now.I don't think MPs are laying blame on him, they know it's an ongoing problem, they're (quite understandably) scared and asking him to tone down the extremist rhetoric in case it sets off someone unstable. Which quite frankly is a completely reasonable expectation of ANY politician, let alone the Prime Minister but hey its 2019 so "blrrrr humbug" I guess.

[bots]

I don't think MPs are laying blame on him, they know it's an ongoing problem, they're (quite understandably) scared and asking him to tone down the extremist rhetoric in case it sets off someone unstable. Which quite frankly is a completely reasonable expectation of ANY politician, let alone the Prime Minister but hey its 2019 so "blrrrr humbug" I guess.

as you well know, it takes 2 sides to make an argument. It's like little kids goading someone until they lose their temper and then say got ya. For labour to act all innocent is a joke, and they know it.

[Kazanne]

the death threats toward MP's started long before Boris became PM, so lets not start laying the blame at his table. There was a lot wrong with May, but she never incited anything close to violence and yet the problem was just as bad then as it is now.

I do think now they are saying they are scared for their lives etc,they are actually giving the nutters in the country information they will relish,and have you seen Jess Phillips office ? talk about advertising yourself . I know to be an MP you have to be somewhat visible, saying you are scared of being attacked just gives these nutters an excuse and their 15 mins of fame.Didn't the same Jess Phillips once say' I wont only stab you in the back,I will stab you in the front' talk about hypocrite, but humbug and surrender are far worse.:shrug:

[Kazanne]

Kazanne, I think most people do.
I had confusion on it but it was when looking over my notes from Uni I did on special poor Jamie's brutal murder.
Bless him.

Where I read it was the European court of Human rights who heard his case.
Then gave that shocking ruling.

It was shocking Joey and very wrong for them to interfere in that.:wavey:

[Toy Soldier]

as you well know, it takes 2 sides to make an argument. It's like little kids goading someone until they lose their temper and then say got ya. For labour to act all innocent is a joke, and they know it.

Aww poor Boris :bawling:... the mean kids poked him with sticks and so he just h-h-h-h-HAD to lash out at them.

https://i.giphy.com/media/ORTPDqxMQD4I/giphy.gif

He is the prime minister. Come on.

[arista]

Aww poor Boris :bawling:... the mean kids poked him with sticks and so he just h-h-h-h-HAD to lash out at them.

https://i.giphy.com/media/ORTPDqxMQD4I/giphy.gif

He is the prime minister. Come on.



Yes he can take it.
Dominic Cummings New Plan
is Great


I mean TS that Poxy Supreme Court Said Parliament
must return.
And Last Night they Closed until Monday,
On Monday many Conservatives will be in Manchester
at their Own Conference.


30 Days to go and we Leave

[jet]

Aww poor Boris :bawling:... the mean kids poked him with sticks and so he just h-h-h-h-HAD to lash out at them.

https://i.giphy.com/media/ORTPDqxMQD4I/giphy.gif

He is the prime minister. Come on.

I thought the opposite. THEY were lashing out at him and he didn't show any temper. He was just the usual bouncy, blunt him. After all the knocks he has taken, deserved or otherwise, he just keeps on keeping on. I want whatever he's on. :laugh:

[Toy Soldier]

I want whatever he's on. :laugh:

We all do. "What he's on" is "an international bank balance big enough to not have to worry about it".

But I disagree that he's not bothered, the one thing he does have to lose is his ego and I think he's furious that he doesn't seem to be able to just lob his weight around like a mini Trump. He seems the same as ever because "bouncy Boris" is an act he's been honing since his teens. There's a documentary about his school days / early career around somewhere... it's fascinating. But yeah, his Boris persona (it's not even his real name) is attached to his face with Flex Tape. It's going nowhere and you can't trust that his demeanor reflects his thoughts 99% of the time. When it does slip, there are glimpses of the frustration of an arrogant man who isn't quite getting the world to mould around him.

[The Slim Reaper]

1177230689416175616

[arista]

1177230689416175616


Yes The Whole Nation
is Turned Upside Down


Its now Leave Vs Remain
in our next General Election.

[The Slim Reaper]

Yes The Whole Nation
is Turned Upside Down


Its now Leave Vs Remain
in our next General Election.

That's not the point; the city that rejects the Murdoch press is against leave, whereas the one that doesn't, wants to leave. Shows the devastating ability of the press to feed lies and propaganda into the public consciousness.

[arista]

That's not the point; the city that rejects the Murdoch press is against leave, whereas the one that doesn't, wants to leave. Shows the devastating ability of the press to feed lies and propaganda into the public consciousness.


Yes Sorry I skipped that OLD point

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFaHka9XoAEId-h?format=jpg&name=small


Utter Bliss

[Toy Soldier]

That's not the point; the city that rejects the Murdoch press is against leave, whereas the one that doesn't, wants to leave. Shows the devastating ability of the press to feed lies and propaganda into the public consciousness.

The Sun Newspaper might be literally one of the worst things in the world.

[Alf]

That's not the point; the city that rejects the Murdoch press is against leave, whereas the one that doesn't, wants to leave. Shows the devastating ability of the press to feed lies and propaganda into the public consciousness.Or maybe they just bought the Daily Mirror instead?

[The Slim Reaper]

Or maybe they just bought the Daily Mirror instead?

u3XRT97h5ec

[Twosugars]

Last night Newsnight BBC2HD
Nick Watt
Order of Council via Privy Council
Johnson PM can suspend the Act of Parliament
Halting any Extension.

Not happening


The constitutional position is simple

It is not open to the government, by Order in Council or side letter or a message written on the side of a startled cow, to do a thing which circumvents or frustrates a statute

Public law 101, 1968 case of Padfield

And any attempt at such tomfoolery can and would be quashed by the High Court on the basic Padfield constitutional principle within a couple of days, if not a few hours

Principle so basic it would not need to go to Supreme Court

The Guardian

[Alf]

u3XRT97h5ecYou should have used Janis Joplin's "Maybe" I'd have enjoyed that more.

[The Slim Reaper]

You should have used Janis Joplin's "Maybe" I'd have enjoyed that more.

Maybe I'm trying to expand your mind

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif

[arista]

[And any attempt at such tomfoolery can and would
be quashed by the High Court on the basic Padfield
constitutional principle within a couple of days, if not a few hours]

Yes TwoSugars
Johnson PM said (today on TV news interviews)
he is not doing that , yet.

[Twosugars]

[And any attempt at such tomfoolery can and would
be quashed by the High Court on the basic Padfield
constitutional principle within a couple of days, if not a few hours]

Yes TwoSugars
Johnson PM said (today on TV news interviews)
he is not doing that , yet.

Yet :hee:
He is not doing that full stop bc it is not allowed

[arista]

Yet :hee:
He is not doing that full stop bc it is not allowed


Yes at this time.

[jet]

We all do. "What he's on" is "an international bank balance big enough to not have to worry about it".

But I disagree that he's not bothered, the one thing he does have to lose is his ego and I think he's furious that he doesn't seem to be able to just lob his weight around like a mini Trump. He seems the same as ever because "bouncy Boris" is an act he's been honing since his teens. There's a documentary about his school days / early career around somewhere... it's fascinating. But yeah, his Boris persona (it's not even his real name) is attached to his face with Flex Tape. It's going nowhere and you can't trust that his demeanor reflects his thoughts 99% of the time. When it does slip, there are glimpses of the frustration of an arrogant man who isn't quite getting the world to mould around him.

Could be - he has never really been on my radar until he was forced upon us all. :laugh:
My point was, the opposition were lashing into him and he didn't lose his temper, whether by design or a natural ability.

In an interview he said "I was sitting opposite people who were shouting all sorts of things at me all afternoon that were far harsher".
I think his words are being deliberately misinterpreted and being milked for all they are worth by the opposition to whip up emotionally charged feelings and THAT is far more dangerous that anything he has actually said.

[James]

That's not the point; the city that rejects the Murdoch press is against leave, whereas the one that doesn't, wants to leave. Shows the devastating ability of the press to feed lies and propaganda into the public consciousness.

The Times is Murdoch owned, and it is pro-remain. These papers are are more about following what they think are the views of their readers rather than leading them.

Generally in the 2016 referendum the bigger cities voted more Remain than other areas. For example Manchester had an even bigger Remain share than Liverpool. London, Cardiff, Leicester, Newcastle, Bristol etc. voted Remain.

It is quite noticeable in the results - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_ membership_referendum

[Twosugars]

The Times is Murdoch owned, and it is pro-remain. These papers are are more about following what they think are the views of their readers rather than leading them.

Generally in the 2016 referendum the bigger cities voted more Remain than other areas. For example Manchester had an even bigger Remain share than Liverpool. London, Cardiff, Leicester, Newcastle, Bristol etc. voted Remain.

It is quite noticeable in the results - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_ membership_referendum

The times campaigned for leave, only Sunday times was for remain

[James]

The times campaigned for leave, only Sunday times was for remain

According to this it was Leave - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leading-article-why-remain-is-best-for-britain-qzj0x609m

Their front pages now are quite anti-Brexit now also.

[Twosugars]

According to this it was Leave - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leading-article-why-remain-is-best-for-britain-qzj0x609m

Their front pages now are quite anti-Brexit now also.

Oop sorry James
I got it wrong way round
The times was for remain
The Sunday times was for leave
The mail was for leave while mail on Sunday was for remain

[arista]

1177562976301264898

5mins Walking Home
Dom not happy that Lewis of SkyNews Political team
does not know the
Benn Act A/k/A Surrender Bill.

[Twosugars]

An advert on the Working for an MP website posted by the Conservatives in the European Parliament:

The Eurosceptic Conservatives and Reformist Group in the European parliament, which includes Conservative MEPs, are recruiting an intern to begin work in Brussels at the European parliament on 1 November for six months, the day after the UK is expected to have left the EU.

The successful applicant for the role working for the Conservatives and Reformist Group will receive €1,5000 a month and will work to “nurture the relationship between the group and the party now and beyond Brexit”.

It is made up of MEPs from right-wing parties across Europe such as Spain’s Vox, Brother’s of Italy, Poland’s Law and Justice, and Sweden Democrats, and the Tories have previously been criticised for their affiliation with the group.
The Guardian

Cons getting ready for an extension:laugh:

[The Slim Reaper]

1177507344395059203

[The Slim Reaper]

The Times is Murdoch owned, and it is pro-remain. These papers are are more about following what they think are the views of their readers rather than leading them.

Generally in the 2016 referendum the bigger cities voted more Remain than other areas. For example Manchester had an even bigger Remain share than Liverpool. London, Cardiff, Leicester, Newcastle, Bristol etc. voted Remain.

It is quite noticeable in the results - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_ membership_referendum

Murdoch was too vague on my part. Do you know if there are figures on media consumed, so for example percentage of leavers that read the sun? You don't have to dig it up for me, I'll find it, but just wondering if you saw that?

Edit: 7 out of 10 sun readers voted leave, which makes more sense. They were muddying the water for years before any referendum was on anyones mind with stupidity about bananas and brown people.

[Vicky.]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/26/dominic-cummings-delivering-brexit-only-way-to-solve-abuse-of-mps?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Jesus ****ing christ..this guy..translated

'death threats should be expected while MPs are trying to come to a deal that will not knack the country and inflame everything with ROI. Some people who voted to leave are upset that we are not just crashing out, so of course they will make threats and they are entitled to do so and we should understand the anger'

:umm2:

[Twosugars]

I'm going to make a sacrifice and read through all the lies of the leave campaign official document and bring them to you here
Will take me a few days and may make me Ill but it may be worth it as a rebuttal of the ever shifting claims as to what exactly the people voted for

This is the offending material
WHY WE SHOULD VOTE LEAVE - OUR CASE
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case.html

[Twosugars]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/26/dominic-cummings-delivering-brexit-only-way-to-solve-abuse-of-mps?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Jesus ****ing christ..this guy..translated

'death threats should be expected while MPs are trying to come to a deal that will not knack the country and inflame everything with ROI. Some people who voted to leave are upset that we are not just crashing out, so of course they will make threats and they are entitled to do so and we should understand the anger'

:umm2:

That's Dominic Cummings for you
A sociopath

[Toy Soldier]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/26/dominic-cummings-delivering-brexit-only-way-to-solve-abuse-of-mps?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Jesus ****ing christ..this guy..translated

'death threats should be expected while MPs are trying to come to a deal that will not knack the country and inflame everything with ROI. Some people who voted to leave are upset that we are not just crashing out, so of course they will make threats and they are entitled to do so and we should understand the anger'

:umm2:

If you read between the lines, he's saying that the only way to end the violence and threats is to leave.

Yet the remain/leave split is more or less 50/50. But if we leave, the same problems won't occur. So essentially he's admitting that the vast majority of the violence and thuggery is from those who want to leave :idc:.

[The Slim Reaper]

If you read between the lines, he's saying that the only way to end the violence and threats is to leave.

Yet the remain/leave split is more or less 50/50. But if we leave, the same problems won't occur. So essentially he's admitting that the vast majority of the violence and thuggery is from those who want to leave :idc:.

Nice country ya got there...

[Toy Soldier]

Nice country ya got there...

To be fair, what's changed other than that we've stopped pretending?

[The Slim Reaper]

To be fair, what's changed other than that we've stopped pretending?

Some of us have stopped pretending, to others it's still a both sides issue.

[Alf]

If the leave voters don't get their vote implemted, which so far doesn't seem to be happening. Can I ask, what do you expect them to do?

Do you expect them to just be submissive and surrender?

[Twosugars]

If the leave voters don't get their vote implemted, which so far doesn't seem to be happening. Can I ask, what do you expect them to do?

Do you expect them to just be submissive and surrender?

I will respond with my post fro another thread

Incorrect

Parliament is making sure we have a deal, precisely as the leave side promised

“Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop,” the campaign pledged. “We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.” The same campaign document—which can still be read on its website—also promised that the UK would be part of “a free trade zone from Iceland to Turkey and the Russian border.” If we leave without a deal—as those prominent Brexiteers are now advocating—that will be impossible.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case.html

From the horse's mouth
Leave campaign own website

Lies from liars

As we see people didnt vote for no deal brexit

You should support attempts to get a deal or a second referendum

[Alf]

I will respond with my post fro another thread



As we see people didnt vote for no deal brexit

You should support attempts to get a deal or a second referendumWe didn't vote for a deal Brexit either.

We just voted to leave the EU, let's leave.

[Twosugars]

We didn't vote for a deal Brexit either.

We just voted to leave the EU, let's leave.

You voted based on what was campaigned.
No changing of goal posts.

[Alf]

You voted based on what was campaigned.
No changing of goal posts.My goalposts have never moved, yours moved after you lost the vote.

[Toy Soldier]

If the leave voters don't get their vote implemted, which so far doesn't seem to be happening. Can I ask, what do you expect them to do?

Personally I expect them to not murder anyone but maybe I'm asking too much.

[Alf]

Personally I expect them to not murder anyone but maybe I'm asking too much.That's what you expect them not to do, I asked, what do you expect them to do?

[Alf]

I can try and answer for you.

You expect leavers to keep going back to ballot box on the issue, until they lose.

Am I close?

[Vicky.]

If you read between the lines, he's saying that the only way to end the violence and threats is to leave.

Yet the remain/leave split is more or less 50/50. But if we leave, the same problems won't occur. So essentially he's admitting that the vast majority of the violence and thuggery is from those who want to leave :idc:.

Well yeah, precisely..

If the leave voters don't get their vote implemted, which so far doesn't seem to be happening. Can I ask, what do you expect them to do?


Not threaten MPs with death and such, for sure. Not sure why anyone thinks thats an acceptable response?

Not about 'surrendering' and being submissive tbh. Its about behaving like a civilized person. Mind, given some of the people (not all, before anyone starts) involved, cannot really expect anything except from a caveman response. but its still not acceptable.

[The Slim Reaper]

I can try and answer for you.

You expect leavers to keep going back to ballot box on the issue, until they lose.

Am I close?

No. I expect either a new referendum to discuss no deal, or we leave with a deal. It's not that complicated considering ND was project fear first time around, and now you're all claiming it's what you wanted all along.

[Vicky.]

I can try and answer for you.

You expect leavers to keep going back to ballot box on the issue, until they lose.

Am I close?

Not really. However, given a lot of people voted leave as they were promised that a deal would be super easy, and the EU would bend over backwards to give us a good one (for what reason, I don't know) and everything..

1) I expect them not to resort to violence and stamping feet like children. Nor for this to be excused or made out to be a normal response in any way..
2)I don't think its too unreasonable to have a vote that is basically, given a deal seems out of the window and a deal was a large part of the leave campaign..no deal or revoke. Only thing that makes any sense at this stage.

Hell I know leavers who are quite mortified with how everything turned out as they really did expect sunshine and rainbows and the Eu licking our backsides and basically, all the bad of being an EU member gone, with the good kept. Who say if they knew all this no deal body bag storing crap we have right now, they would never have voted at all. And thats just my parents D: Others seem a bit more..angry about the lies they were fed and not quite as..nice getting the point across.

Also know a few who are all 'rargh, crash out, we will survive, get the browns out, rule Britannia! Democracy!', but those seem in the minority thank goodness.

So no continually voting until one result comes. But 1 vote thats actually honest, to settle things. Given leavers are so confident that MORE people want to leave (and with no deal..) now, I don't see why they are scared of a vote to confirm this :shrug: Also don't think its un-democratic to do this, given the whole 'deal will be simple' stuff that turned out to be possibly the biggest lie told in all of it.

[Alf]

No. I expect either a new referendum to discuss no deal, or we leave with a deal. It's not that complicated considering ND was project fear first time around, and now you're all claiming it's what you wanted all along.So you want a referendum with the question "no deal on the table yes or no" is that right?

What if the result came back as, keep no deal on the table. And then we can only negotiate a bad deal, which is what we've done so far. Would you then say "no deal" must be implemented?

[The Slim Reaper]

So you want a referendum with the question "no deal on the table yes or no" is that right?

What if the result came back as, keep no deal on the table. And then we can only negotiate a bad deal, which is what we've done so far. Would you then say "no deal" must be implemented?

No, if we're expected to leave with no deal, it needs to go to another referendum for no deal vs remain, if we get one of the unicorn deals they promised then we leave.

Also, it's a myth that the risk of ND being off the table will hurt our bargaining position, as it's been on throughout the last 3 years, and how has that worked out at the negotiating table? Give us what we want all we'll blow our own heads off, has never, or will ever be a good negotiation tactic.

[bots]

I am going to say it as no one else has .......


Arista, can you please change the thread title, it's out of date

[Alf]

I think Boris is just gonna take us out with no deal on Halloween, if the Parliament can't agree on anything by then.

He'll deal with the consequences after, but if he doesn't get us out by any means necessary on Halloween, then he probably destroys his party, which is why I think no deal is happening on Halloween.

[arista]

I am going to say it as no one else has .......


Arista, can you please change the thread title, it's out of date



Its Adams thread
Suggest a New Title for him.

[bots]

I think Boris is just gonna take us out with no deal on Halloween, if the Parliament can't agree on anything by then.

He'll deal with the consequences after, but if he doesn't get us out by any means necessary on Halloween, then he probably destroys his party, which is why I think no deal is happening on Halloween.

He has to request an extension if we don't get a deal by the 14th I think the date is, so if he doesn't do it, he will not be PM and will not be able to take us out without a deal.

[arista]

The SNP say next week they Want
Johnson PM
OUT,
They are ready to back Corbyn as the temp PM

[Vicky.]

No. I expect either a new referendum to discuss no deal, or we leave with a deal. It's not that complicated considering ND was project fear first time around, and now you're all claiming it's what you wanted all along.

I think thats too many votes tbh. We all know the majority (yes, even leavers) wanted a deal, and expected one. A few might not have, but..its just bull to say all leavers want no deal. So only one more vote. As I said, no deal crash, or revoke.

Whichever is chosen, do. If it does end up being crash, do it and hope for the best, no more voting as its clear. At least that way, people knew what they voted for.

[The Slim Reaper]

I think thats too many votes tbh. We all know the majority (yes, even leavers) wanted a deal, and expected one. A few might not have, but..its just bull to say all leavers want no deal. So only one more vote. As I said, no deal crash, or revoke.

Whichever is chosen, do. If it does end up being crash, do it and hope for the best, no more voting as its clear. At least that way, people knew what they voted for.

That's 1 vote. They get their deal and we leave, or we go to a new referendum of ND vs remain.

[Vicky.]

They are ready to back Corbyn as the temp PM

Will this be him only..being caretaker for the brexit thing? Or having power to do other stuff too? As basically, I really do not want to crash out, but I also really really do not want Corbyn having any kind of power as..well some of his views and things he has said he will do terrify me to be quite honest. I agree with a LOT of his policies, no austerity and such. But others..nope nope nope. So that possibly would be lose lose for me, and a very difficult decision in my head!

[The Slim Reaper]

1177489028016291840

[Toy Soldier]

I'm honestly starting to think that hard Brexit or not, whatever happens there, Mr Johnson might have gotten himself into some deep water...

[joeysteele]

Will this be him only..being caretaker for the brexit thing? Or having power to do other stuff too? As basically, I really do not want to crash out, but I also really really do not want Corbyn having any kind of power as..well some of his views and things he has said he will do terrify me to be quite honest. I agree with a LOT of his policies, no austerity and such. But others..nope nope nope. So that possibly would be lose lose for me, and a very difficult decision in my head!

Yes.
Only a caretaking government Vicky.

To get the extension, remove no deal as a scenario.
Then once that's done call a general election.

An agreed caretaking period only to secure that extension and clear the no deal threat.

Anything else he has no numbers for anyway.
It would be an agreed time limited frame too.

However, the numbers aren't there for Corbyn and the opposition parties.
The Lib Dems aren't there, yet.

Also though, the Independents votes would be needed to bring this limited period purpose about.

[Twosugars]

1177489028016291840

About bloody time!

[Vicky.]

That's 1 vote. They get their deal and we leave, or we go to a new referendum of ND vs remain.

Haha, have confused myself now here. As you said another vote, no deal or deal. But then, if a deal cannot be reached (which at this point its clear it can't) then another vote, no deal or remain.

Thats another 2?

When we all know at this stage, a decent deal was pie in the sky nonsense, no acceptable deal is possible at this stage, so the 'no deal or deal' thing can surely be..well disregarded as its the situation we have been in for years now with no going foward :laugh:

Really, should kinda be accepted now that if we leave at all, it will be with no deal. And of course, that 'project fear' was..well accurate (at least in that part). As the possibility of crashing out without a deal was apparently just remoaner scaremongering which would never ever ever happen so could be utterly disregarded :suspect:

[MTVN]

1177489028016291840

I'd been wondering why no serious journalist or major publication had picked up on this story

An article in the Byline Times, which has been shared tens of thousands of times on social media, makes a series of claims about donors to Vote Leave and Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign standing to profit from a no deal Brexit.

But at least one key part of the article—a claim that the number of “short positions” taken by hedge funds increased dramatically in the lead up to Boris Johnson’s election as Conservative leader—seems likely to be based on a misunderstanding of the data.

In reality, no such spike in the number of short positions seems to have occurred

Read more: https://fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/

[The Slim Reaper]

I'd been wondering why no serious journalist or major publication had picked up on this story



Read more: https://fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/

It has been picked up by the FT at least. I know that for a fact, and there maybe more.

They did address the fact they were fact checked and provided more info. I will dig it out for you to read, but as you can appreciate, things have been moving pretty rapidly so I don't have it directly to hand. Give me a day.

[Twosugars]

The civil servant in charge of Brexit implementation has quit.

Matthew Coats’s departure in the next few weeks is a blow to the government’s no-deal planning as he was also in charge of delivering frictionless borders.

[arista]

I'm honestly starting to think that hard Brexit or not, whatever happens there, Mr Johnson might have gotten himself into some deep water...


Sure he can
take that.

Swim the Swamp
to Solve it all
With Dom , assisting

[Twosugars]

He is the swamp

Brexit MPs in cahoots with disaster capitalist vultures waiting to get fat on brexit

[Scarlett.]

Will this be him only..being caretaker for the brexit thing? Or having power to do other stuff too? As basically, I really do not want to crash out, but I also really really do not want Corbyn having any kind of power as..well some of his views and things he has said he will do terrify me to be quite honest. I agree with a LOT of his policies, no austerity and such. But others..nope nope nope. So that possibly would be lose lose for me, and a very difficult decision in my head!

His majority would be made up from the other parties, basically, he wouldn't really have any power outside of what needs to be done, would be impossible for him to make a power grab

[Twosugars]

His majority would be made up from the other parties, basically, he wouldn't really have any power outside of what needs to be done, would be impossible for him to make a power grab

Great point.

[joeysteele]

His majority would be made up from the other parties, basically, he wouldn't really have any power outside of what needs to be done, would be impossible for him to make a power grab

Dead right.
Well said.

I tried explaining this earlier, you put it more easy on the eyes to read than me however.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFkdYroWsAE5XAX?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1177295167537262594/UYcFFWDu?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1133056716768194560/RTlZPusw?format=jpg&name=small

[Scarlett.]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFkdYroWsAE5XAX?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1177295167537262594/UYcFFWDu?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1133056716768194560/RTlZPusw?format=jpg&name=small

God I hate newspaper 'comedy'

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1168542242417643520/CUE3zopr?format=jpg&name=small

Young Boris Johnson.

[Toy Soldier]

The civil servant in charge of Brexit implementation has quit.

Matthew Coats’s departure in the next few weeks is a blow to the government’s no-deal planning as he was also in charge of delivering frictionless borders.

What choice do you have but to resign, when saddled with an impossible task?

[Tom4784]

God I hate newspaper 'comedy'

Boomer humour in general is terrible, juvenile and completely unfunny to all but the simplest of minds.

[Twosugars]

What choice do you have but to resign, when saddled with an impossible task?

Part of me (the same part that enjoys watching horror movies) wants to see no deal brexit mess followed by an ignominious fall of this government, disgraced forever.
But then I think of the damage and check myself

[Toy Soldier]

Part of me (the same part that enjoys watching horror movies) wants to see no deal brexit mess followed by an ignominious fall of this government, disgraced forever.
But then I think of the damage and check myself

Honestly if this was happening before I'd had kids I'd have been selfishly enjoying every minute of the train crash. I have anarchist tendencies at heart :joker:. But with kids (and especially having a child with a disability) it's... ... ... significantly less entertaining.

[joeysteele]

Honestly if this was happening before I'd had kids I'd have been selfishly enjoying every minute of the train crash. I have anarchist tendencies at heart :joker:. But with kids (and especially having a child with a disability) it's... ... ... significantly less entertaining.



Exactly.
That all puts a whole new perspective on the issue.

[Kizzy]

Boomer humour in general is terrible, juvenile and completely unfunny to all but the simplest of minds.

Er it's political satire , I thought you would appreciate it..

[Twosugars]

Er it's political satire , I thought you would appreciate it..

Tbf these are rather weak examples.

The first one is plain wrong and perverse as it is bojo who is doing procedural tricks like prorogation and who knows what next

[Kizzy]

Tbf these are rather weak examples.

The first one is plain wrong and perverse as it is bojo who is doing procedural tricks like prorogation and who knows what next

Yeah ...That's from the torygraph what did you expect :joker:

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/4ABB/production/_109013191_sunex29.jpg


Much Larger https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/vWmLwmH1iTlMWtk0KyEB8w/https/media.fyre.co/WduHBRSQQTe7JzENldqD_express-pg-1_1569706128_001.png

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/16C93/production/_109013339_stp1sep29.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/D053/production/_109013335_observerfrontsept29-1.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/13133/production/_109013187_suntele29.9.p1.jpg

[Ammi]

...have all of the upgrades on the existing hospitals, he promised...been completed now, then...?...has that £850 million been provided...focusing on upgrading existing hospitals would to me, seem more the thing...as new builds would take up so much of a budget that is needed in equipment and improvement etc...

[arista]

...have all of the upgrades on the existing hospitals, he promised...been completed now, then...?...has that £850 million been provided...focusing on upgrading existing hospitals would to me, seem more the thing...as new builds would take up so much of a budget that is needed in equipment and improvement etc...



No as UK builders are Slow

But The PM is now talking about 40 NEW hospitals
over 10 years

[Ammi]

No as UK builders are Slow

But The PM is now talking about 40 NEW hospitals

..his already promised upgrades didn’t involve builders, they were upgrades to equipment and facilities being offered atm...

[Ammi]

No as UK builders are Slow

But The PM is now talking about 40 NEW hospitals
over 10 years

...yeah the long term 10 year plans are the best because they don’t have to be delivered in his time in office...he’s promised the upgrades £850 million, I believe ....and those can be delivered now...so that should be his focus first if he’s genuinely dedicated to investing in the NHS...

[Ammi]

No as UK builders are Slow

But The PM is now talking about 40 NEW hospitals
over 10 years

...let’s hear it for the EU builders, they’re probably a bit quicker...

[arista]

...yeah the long term 10 year plans are the best because they don’t have to be delivered in his time in office...he’s promised the upgrades £850 million, I believe ....and those can be delivered now...so that should be his focus first if he’s genuinely dedicated to investing in the NHS...


I hate 10 year projection
as at this time we are stuck in every
5 Years fixed Parliament Election

And Labour ALSO use 10 Year Projection Plans,

[arista]

Sophie Ridge is Live
inside the Manchester Conference right now
talking to Health Secretary Matt Hancock.

8:30AM -9:30AM

Meanwhile Marr BBC1HD starts at 9PAM Live from Nearby BBC Salford.

Best to Record Both.


So far its 6 New Hospitals. Confirmed

Matt is talking about PFI debts of New Labour. Bugger Ups

[Ammi]

I hate 10 year projection
as at this time we are stuck in every
5 Years fixed Parliament Election

And Labour ALSO use 10 Year Projection Plans,

...Labour are not the party in the position of being able to implement promised upgrades to the NHS right now, Arista.. before they start diverting into long term building plans...so let’s not with the ‘Labour also...’...as it’s not relevant to what Boris promised...

[arista]

...Labour are not the party in the position of being able to implement promised upgrades to the NHS right now, Arista.. score they start diverting into long term building plans...so let’s not with the ‘Labour also...’...as it’s not relevant to what Boris promised...



It is as They Claim they
are Winning the Next Election
And its important to tell everyone that Labour also
does 10 year plans



It should be a 5 year plan

[joeysteele]

It is as They Claim they
are Winning the Next Election
And its important to tell everyone that Labour also
does 10 year plans



It should be a 5 year plan



The Cons promised much as to the NHS in 2010.

In their last near 10 years all they've really done is a costly damaging top down reorganisation , they promised not to do.
Which caused and is still causing problems across the NHS.

Now near 10 years on, they admit it needs all this extra funding and even new hospitals.

They have in action then projected 15 years not 10.

I know one thing, people shouldn't be attacking opposition Parties on spending now either.

Johnson seems to have found a never ending crock of gold as to money.
Throwing spending plans around like confetti.

I'm not fooled, I am one at least who neither trusts him or believes a word he says.

[arista]

"The Cons promised much as to the NHS in 2010."

Joey that does not Count
it was 2010 Conservative-LibDem in Power for 5 years
Then Cameron for a year or so, ONLY

[arista]

"I'm not fooled,"


Then its Corbyn as PM for you, Joey

[arista]

The PM is Live On Marr BBC1HD

[Ammi]

The Cons promised much as to the NHS in 2010.

In their last near 10 years all they've really done is a costly damaging top down reorganisation , they promised not to do.
Which caused and is still causing problems across the NHS.

Now near 10 years on, they admit it needs all this extra funding and even new hospitals.

They have in action then projected 15 years not 10.

I know one thing, people shouldn't be attacking opposition Parties on spending now either.

Johnson seems to have found a never ending crock of gold as to money.
Throwing spending plans around like confetti.

I'm not fooled, I am one at least who neither trusts him or believes a word he says.

...he hasn't quite found that crock of gold yet though, Joey...I don’t think there are any updates ongoing yet, that were promised...that £850 million he apparently had and was going to invest in the NHS..?....surely the efficiency and equipment of existing hospitals is the first step...before spending huge funds on new builds..?...make that crock of gold make a difference right now...

[arista]

Marr is losing
his Argument with the PM.

Get off the word "Humbug"

All he wants is Brexit Over the Line
31st Oct 2019

[arista]

The PM Confirmed No Deal
with The Brexit Party
Again.

Live BBC1HD


The PM also Confirmed other EU nations
want us out on the 31st Oct

[joeysteele]

"The Cons promised much as to the NHS in 2010."

Joey that does not Count
it was 2010 Conservative-LibDem in Power for 5 years
Then Cameron for a year or so, ONLY

No, no no.
The Lib Dems for a few Ministerial positions and a time in government threw all their major policies out the window.
That Coalition was near totally Con dominated.

Tuition fees, Cons wanted to at least double them, Lib Dems abolish them.
They vote was to treble them.

Neither Cons or Lib Dems had a top down reorganisation of the NHS in their manifestos.
A costly major one was done.

Austerity cuts, the Lib Dems supported the Con plans near all the way.
They wanted far less.

All the Lib Dems really won was a pathetic AV referendum.
They even abandoned their supposed sacrosanct policy of PR.

It was a Con government supported fully by Clegg and his Lib Dens.

You can't now dismiss what was done by the Cons with Lib Dem support, to selectively make another point.

We've had a Con PM for over 9 years now.
Strongly Con led government too.
No one else to blame.

I don't blame the Lib Dems for the nightmare of policies enacted this last 9+ years.
I blame the Lib Dems for supporting those extreme unnecessary policies the Cons got implemented with their votes.

[joeysteele]

"I'm not fooled,"


Then its Corbyn as PM for you, Joey

Obviously
For his policies however, not the man.

[Twosugars]

Another pie in the sky

Like the bridge :hee:

[Kazanne]

Tbf these are rather weak examples.

The first one is plain wrong and perverse as it is bojo who is doing procedural tricks like prorogation and who knows what next

Aren't you the one who thinks posting comic strips is hilare ?:laugh::laugh:or is it only funny when the target is Trump or Johnson ,those are their names btw incase you don't know.:wavey:

[Twosugars]

Aren't you the one who thinks posting comic strips is hilare ?:laugh::laugh:or is it only funny when the target is Trump or Johnson ,those are their names btw incase you don't know.:wavey:

I dont mind them being posted. Just saying they're not the best.
Read the post before you attack :hee:

[Kazanne]

I dont mind them being posted. Just saying they're not the best.
Read the post before you attack :hee:

Only yours are the best eh ?:laugh:

[Twosugars]

Only yours are the best eh ?:laugh:

Again, I didnt say that :hehe:

Aw bless your inaccurate baiting attempts this morning :laugh:

[Kazanne]

Again, I didnt say that :hehe:

Aw bless your inaccurate baiting attempts this morning :laugh:

Im not baiting just posting,sorry about that .

[Twosugars]

Im not baiting just posting,sorry about that .

No need to apologise, I always enjoy your contributions:)

[arista]

[I don't blame the Lib Dems for the nightmare of policies
enacted this last 9+ years.
I blame the Lib Dems for supporting
those extreme unnecessary policies
the Cons got implemented with their votes. ]


I am not Blaming any LibDems

But it has not be a Solid Continuous
Conservative Power

2010 - 2015 Conservative LibDem Power shared.
2015 - 2016 Cameron gets tied up and calls a referendum

So get your Facts in Order Joey
and stop saying 9 years

[joeysteele]

[I don't blame the Lib Dems for the nightmare of policies
enacted this last 9+ years.
I blame the Lib Dems for supporting
those extreme unnecessary policies
the Cons got implemented with their votes. ]


I am not Blaming any LibDems

But it has not be a Solid Continuous
Conservative Power

2010 - 2015 Conservative LibDem Power shared.
2015 - 2016 Cameron gets tied up and calls a referendum

So get your Facts in Order Joey
and stop saying 9 years

It really has been.

Name me one major serious policy the Lib Dems re economy, health or education or anything really got implemented.

[arista]

It really has been.

Name me one major serious policy the Lib Dems re economy, health or education or anything really got implemented.


I do not have time
to list them


But its a Shared Power 2010- 2015
FACT

[joeysteele]

I neither find appropriate or funny so called newspaper cartoon, childish rubbish they do.
No matter who they direct it against.

Although I am thought to not really have a sense of humour.
I'm told I am near always serious.

I only see them on here as I wouldn't soil my hands with ANY paper.
I won't call them NEWS papers, they long ago stopped being that.

[arista]

I neither find appropriate or funny so called newspaper cartoon, childish rubbish they do.
No matter who they direct it against.

Although I am thought to not really have a sense of humour.
I'm told I am near always serious.

I only see them on here as I wouldn't soil my hands with ANY paper.
I won't call them NEWS papers, they long ago stopped being that.

Sure but the FT is Essential.

[The Slim Reaper]

I do not have time
to list them


But its a Shared Power 2010- 2015
FACT

The tories just bullied the libs into approving their own plans, often going against LD election promises.

[arista]

The tories just bullied the libs into approving their own plans, often going against LD election promises.


Never that simple


The LibDems Blocked Conservative Plans (2010-2015)

[The Slim Reaper]

Never that simple


The LibDems Blocked Conservative Plans (2010-2015)

Which ones?

[MTVN]

It really has been.

Name me one major serious policy the Lib Dems re economy, health or education or anything really got implemented.

Raising the personal allowance on income tax

[joeysteele]

Raising the personal allowance on income tax

Well if the Conservatives are to be believed, they say they intended to anyway.

Crumbs on policy were thrown to the Lib Dems.
Because they turned their backs on policy, that's a major reason voters flooded away from them in 2015.

Not because they put the Cons in government but because they threw out major policy after policy they'd stood for.

I know that because I voted Lib Dem in 2010 for their moderating policies.
Which I saw NONE of, once Clegg got his Deputy PM title and a secured 5 year term of appearing to be in government.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1178295163745177600/PJ1YEzLF?format=jpg&name=small

[joeysteele]

I rarely agree with Patel.
On this I do definitely.

[Twosugars]

Trump will tell Patel to take her back and she will

[arista]

I rarely agree with Patel.
On this I do definitely.



That's a fair Point

[Vicky.]

Honestly if this was happening before I'd had kids I'd have been selfishly enjoying every minute of the train crash. I have anarchist tendencies at heart :joker:. But with kids (and especially having a child with a disability) it's... ... ... significantly less entertaining.

My thoughts on the topic exactly tbh

[arista]

Former PM Cameron is live on CNN HD now
in USA


Selling His Book
IN USA

[Alf]

Former PM Cameron is live on CNN HD now
in USAI heard his book wasn't selling very well at the Tory conference.

Neither were John Major key rings.

However, Boris for Britain badges have sold out.

[arista]

I heard his book wasn't selling very well at the Tory conference.

Neither were John Major key rings.

However, Boris for Britain badges have sold out.


Yes many Hate it
as he Used what the Queen told him
to sell his book

[Twosugars]

I heard his book wasn't selling very well at the Tory conference.

Neither were John Major key rings.

However, Boris for Britain badges have sold out.

Unsurprising

Most reasonable cons stayed away from this conference

Cons are now a party of surrender
After they surrendered to farage ugly ideology

[Alf]

Unsurprising

Most reasonable cons stayed away from this conference

Cons are now a party of surrender
After they surrendered to farage ugly ideologyYou used the S word. Don't you know it's 2019?

Alf 1 TS2 0

[The Slim Reaper]

Alf 1 - 0 TS

[Twosugars]

TS2 or 2s otherwise Toy Soldier will hit the roof and we'll have to vaccinate him :hehe:

[Twosugars]

You used the S word. Don't you know it's 2019?

Alf 1 TS2 0

But your side likes war terminology
You're still fighting the germans, 80 years later

[Alf]

Toy Soldier is TS
Two Sugars is TS2
The Slim Reaper is TSR

Them's the rules.

[Toy Soldier]

TS2 or 2s otherwise Toy Soldier will hit the roof and we'll have to vaccinate him :hehe:

Excuse me, as far as I know my immunities are fine :hmph:. Although when my wife finished her nurse training and had her immunities tested before starting her job, she did discover that she doesn't have measles immunity despite having full MMR. Her mumps and rubella were fine. So either it didn't work or it was lost over time :umm2:. Really everyone should get bloods done as an adult, seems daft that they only do it for healthcare professionals.

[Toy Soldier]

Toy Soldier is TS
Two Sugars is TS2
The Slim Reaper is TSR

Them's the rules.

I personally prefer 2S for TwoShuggs but I never got it to stick. :fist:

[The Slim Reaper]

Toy Soldier is TS
Two Sugars is TS2
The Slim Reaper is TSR

Them's the rules.

TSR should be GOD





You know I'm serious when I go 3rd person.

[Twosugars]

Toy Soldier is TS
Two Sugars is TS2
The Slim Reaper is TSR

Them's the rules.

I feel great in this sandwich :smug:

[The Slim Reaper]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/01/pretty-vacant/

This is not a drill anymore. This is not something that can be passed off as a phase, something for people to talk about when there’s nothing on the Telly, or when you’re down the pub, or sitting next to the boring person from work who’s invited you and your Mrs round for dinner.

This is much, much worse than that.

Our politics is being wrenched apart. Actually, I’m going further than that, our society is being wrenched apart – and frankly I’m terrified.

And when I say wrenched, I mean it. It goes well beyond the realignment of the political plates such as when the Tories changed from One Nation Heathite to Thatcherism or when Labour decided to leap from Blair to Corbyn; no, this is an earthquake that comes together with a tsunami and ends up with poverty and homelessness and probably an appeal involving Bob Geldof and Lenny Henry.

Project Fear you say? Well you can **** right off; the things we feared would accompany Brexit are nothing compared to the things that we need to worry about now. I can cope with queues at Dover, I can cope with an increase in the price of bacon, I can cope with having to wait for an hour to get out of the Easy Jet queue at Tenerife airport, but I draw the line at the systematic undermining of the institutions that have worked pretty efficiently at maintaining our democracy for the last couple of hundred years. And, most of all, I draw a line at a concerted attempt to pit me against my fellow Brits.

Since Johnson (I refused to call him by his first name, or even write his first name), became Prime Minister – elected by absolutely no one I know or would care to know – our executive has become a danger to our society. I don’t write that sentence lightly, I’ve thought about it and I urge you to do the same – our executive is now a danger to our society. It is why I’m so scared, because it is absolutely unique in our political history for us to have a government which no longer has as its primary intention a desire to keep us all safe and healthy, educated and content, but instead seeks to pit us against each other by stirring up hatred and discontent and anger.

And why?

English nationalism, that’s why, English nationalism wrapped up in the idiocy of Brexit.

We shouldn’t be here. It should never have happened. I’ll give you a brief potted history according to me – ignore it if you want. By 2010, the Tories had decided that they’d had enough of not being in control. David Cameron, wanted to win power for himself and for his party and for his class (yep, I’ll stand by that, there is a class element to all of this, and it’s class with a ****ed up capital ‘c’). He wanted to kill off the Lib-Dems – which was easy, Clegg’s party of Lemmings, simply jumped off the cliff for him; and he wanted to kill off UKIP, because they could potentially take enough votes to keep him out of Downing Street. So he dreamt up the policy of an ‘in-out’ referendum on our membership of the EU. In the short term it did the trick for him – in the 2015 general election Cameron was elected with a small but workable majority, but in the long term it has been a disaster. Because Cameron – possibly the embodiment of upper-class, self-entitled, tie and crest, arrogance – hadn’t conceived that he might lose a referendum or what to do if that came to pass. So, far from killing off the right wing his referendum brought about Brexit – the most crippling act of national self-harm that this country has ever inflicted upon itself.

Cameron immediately resigned, because he hadn’t the wit or imagination to do anything else, and in his place Brexit monsters started to grow and thrive: just as the Orcs were created in the sulphurous pits of Mordor by that evil Wizard in The Hobbit, so Farage, Cummings, Aaron Banks, Mark Francois, Jacob Rees-****ing-Mogg and a legion of others were created on the anvil of Brexit. And these people are English Nationalists – they hate Europe, they hate the idea of collegiate international cooperation, they hate the idea of a shared purpose and a common identity and compromise, they’re suspicious of everything because they are weak and stupid and they have an arrogant and warped sense of the history of Britain. Brexit has created them, given them their chance. Cameron gave them their chance.

The referendum on Britain’s position within the European Union was a catastrophic bucket of ****e from start to finish – let’s get a few things straight: first, a referendum that can fundamentally determine a nation’s position in the world should never be born out the political expediency for a single politician and his party, that is just madness; second, a referendum which allows for a possible outcome that is not properly outlined to voters, because the complexity of what they are being asked to decide is not adequately appreciated by those asking the question, is simply dangerous; third, a referendum were the campaigns waged by both sides are steeped in lies and misinformation lacks legitimacy; and, finally, when the conduct of those running campaigns for one side or another is questionable within the remit of the Electoral Law, the result should be treated with great care, not hailed as a triumphant demonstration of people’s desires.

The referendum on Britain’s place in Europe was an ill-conceived manipulation of democracy and cannot be justified by the fatuous claim that the result is an expression of the ‘will of the people.’ Because, quite frankly, what did the people will? Who the **** knows, not this political ****-squad that’s for sure – but sadly, very few Brexiters are honest enough to concede that.

They would rather plunge our country into social and economic uncertainty than accept that Brexit might not after all be in the Country’s best interests. They would rather undermine their own democracy than accept that the flaws in the referendum make a seamless and successful exit from the European Union pretty much impossible. They claim that those who point this out are traitors and collaborators hell-bent on ‘thwarting of the people’s will’, and this the vacant rhetoric that suits them – because the ‘us and them‘ narrative is as simple and effective as it is dangerous and meaningless.

It started during the referendum campaign itself, when we had the first glimpse of two terrifyingly ugly traits that have grown like bind weed around the throat of our political culture – the first was the rejection of ‘expert opinion.’ Economists, constitutional lawyers, international lawyers, businessmen, diplomats, lorry drivers, trade unionist and politicians with decades of experience, have all had their opinions not just rejected but deemed illegitimate – they, the Brexit nationalists have said, just want to stop the will of the people with their devious knowledge – and half the people have accepted this; whilst the second trait is the encouragement to distrust the institutions of state – Parliament, is no longer the mouthpiece of the people, it is the enemy; the judiciary is not deemed to be objective and fair but derided as being elitist and establishment.

In the last week, we’ve seen that the clear plan of the Cummings inspired Government is to ratchet up the tension between those who are deemed to be ‘elitist liberals’ and ‘the people’. The narrative is that Parliament, the judges, the BBC, the mainstream media and anyone else who can possibly labelled a liberal snowflake, are standing in the way of the will of the people, by trying to prevent brexit.

This is the type of politics that leads to distrust, this is the type of politics that leads to disillusionment and anger and stasis, it is the politics that every failed state that has ever existed has engaged in – politics working against the interests of the people.

Now, let me pin my colours firmly to the mast – I don’t give a **** that someone who doesn’t like foreign people voted to leave the EU, I don’t give a **** that there are those out there, with no clue, who make meaningless claims that the nation’s ‘sovereignty’ will be enhanced by leaving the EU; I don’t give a **** that those who are quite happy to unlawfully shut down Parliament are the ones shouting loudest about democracy and the ‘sovereign state.’

I do give a **** about my children and the fact that they might reach adulthood in a country that doesn’t feel able to work together with other countries; I do give a **** about the fact that their future may be jeopordised by a diminishing economy, I do give a **** about the fact that they won’t be able to travel freely around other EU countries; and I give a **** that the future of their society, indeed our society will be blighted by stupid people who tell them not to listen to experts and that the institutions which make and uphold the law and exist to give them a voice are not to be trusted. And I give a massive **** that my fellow Brits, good people, honest people, working people, work-shy people, fat people, thin people, brown people, black people, gay people, straight people, educated people and every one else are being taken for a ride by the biggest political con trick that has ever been unleashed upon our society.

And it is because of that, that I will write my angry, sometimes barely coherent pieces for Politics Punked and it is because of this that I will not give up on the campaign to bring an end to the vacant politics that we are being forced to endure.

[Kizzy]

Toy Soldier is TS
Two Sugars is TS2
The Slim Reaper is TSR

Them's the rules.

I'm HBIC ;)

[Cherie]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/01/pretty-vacant/

This is not a drill anymore. This is not something that can be passed off as a phase, something for people to talk about when there’s nothing on the Telly, or when you’re down the pub, or sitting next to the boring person from work who’s invited you and your Mrs round for dinner.

This is much, much worse than that.

Our politics is being wrenched apart. Actually, I’m going further than that, our society is being wrenched apart – and frankly I’m terrified.

And when I say wrenched, I mean it. It goes well beyond the realignment of the political plates such as when the Tories changed from One Nation Heathite to Thatcherism or when Labour decided to leap from Blair to Corbyn; no, this is an earthquake that comes together with a tsunami and ends up with poverty and homelessness and probably an appeal involving Bob Geldof and Lenny Henry.

Project Fear you say? Well you can **** right off; the things we feared would accompany Brexit are nothing compared to the things that we need to worry about now. I can cope with queues at Dover, I can cope with an increase in the price of bacon, I can cope with having to wait for an hour to get out of the Easy Jet queue at Tenerife airport, but I draw the line at the systematic undermining of the institutions that have worked pretty efficiently at maintaining our democracy for the last couple of hundred years. And, most of all, I draw a line at a concerted attempt to pit me against my fellow Brits.

Since Johnson (I refused to call him by his first name, or even write his first name), became Prime Minister – elected by absolutely no one I know or would care to know – our executive has become a danger to our society. I don’t write that sentence lightly, I’ve thought about it and I urge you to do the same – our executive is now a danger to our society. It is why I’m so scared, because it is absolutely unique in our political history for us to have a government which no longer has as its primary intention a desire to keep us all safe and healthy, educated and content, but instead seeks to pit us against each other by stirring up hatred and discontent and anger.

And why?

English nationalism, that’s why, English nationalism wrapped up in the idiocy of Brexit.

We shouldn’t be here. It should never have happened. I’ll give you a brief potted history according to me – ignore it if you want. By 2010, the Tories had decided that they’d had enough of not being in control. David Cameron, wanted to win power for himself and for his party and for his class (yep, I’ll stand by that, there is a class element to all of this, and it’s class with a ****ed up capital ‘c’). He wanted to kill off the Lib-Dems – which was easy, Clegg’s party of Lemmings, simply jumped off the cliff for him; and he wanted to kill off UKIP, because they could potentially take enough votes to keep him out of Downing Street. So he dreamt up the policy of an ‘in-out’ referendum on our membership of the EU. In the short term it did the trick for him – in the 2015 general election Cameron was elected with a small but workable majority, but in the long term it has been a disaster. Because Cameron – possibly the embodiment of upper-class, self-entitled, tie and crest, arrogance – hadn’t conceived that he might lose a referendum or what to do if that came to pass. So, far from killing off the right wing his referendum brought about Brexit – the most crippling act of national self-harm that this country has ever inflicted upon itself.

Cameron immediately resigned, because he hadn’t the wit or imagination to do anything else, and in his place Brexit monsters started to grow and thrive: just as the Orcs were created in the sulphurous pits of Mordor by that evil Wizard in The Hobbit, so Farage, Cummings, Aaron Banks, Mark Francois, Jacob Rees-****ing-Mogg and a legion of others were created on the anvil of Brexit. And these people are English Nationalists – they hate Europe, they hate the idea of collegiate international cooperation, they hate the idea of a shared purpose and a common identity and compromise, they’re suspicious of everything because they are weak and stupid and they have an arrogant and warped sense of the history of Britain. Brexit has created them, given them their chance. Cameron gave them their chance.

The referendum on Britain’s position within the European Union was a catastrophic bucket of ****e from start to finish – let’s get a few things straight: first, a referendum that can fundamentally determine a nation’s position in the world should never be born out the political expediency for a single politician and his party, that is just madness; second, a referendum which allows for a possible outcome that is not properly outlined to voters, because the complexity of what they are being asked to decide is not adequately appreciated by those asking the question, is simply dangerous; third, a referendum were the campaigns waged by both sides are steeped in lies and misinformation lacks legitimacy; and, finally, when the conduct of those running campaigns for one side or another is questionable within the remit of the Electoral Law, the result should be treated with great care, not hailed as a triumphant demonstration of people’s desires.

The referendum on Britain’s place in Europe was an ill-conceived manipulation of democracy and cannot be justified by the fatuous claim that the result is an expression of the ‘will of the people.’ Because, quite frankly, what did the people will? Who the **** knows, not this political ****-squad that’s for sure – but sadly, very few Brexiters are honest enough to concede that.

They would rather plunge our country into social and economic uncertainty than accept that Brexit might not after all be in the Country’s best interests. They would rather undermine their own democracy than accept that the flaws in the referendum make a seamless and successful exit from the European Union pretty much impossible. They claim that those who point this out are traitors and collaborators hell-bent on ‘thwarting of the people’s will’, and this the vacant rhetoric that suits them – because the ‘us and them‘ narrative is as simple and effective as it is dangerous and meaningless.

It started during the referendum campaign itself, when we had the first glimpse of two terrifyingly ugly traits that have grown like bind weed around the throat of our political culture – the first was the rejection of ‘expert opinion.’ Economists, constitutional lawyers, international lawyers, businessmen, diplomats, lorry drivers, trade unionist and politicians with decades of experience, have all had their opinions not just rejected but deemed illegitimate – they, the Brexit nationalists have said, just want to stop the will of the people with their devious knowledge – and half the people have accepted this; whilst the second trait is the encouragement to distrust the institutions of state – Parliament, is no longer the mouthpiece of the people, it is the enemy; the judiciary is not deemed to be objective and fair but derided as being elitist and establishment.

In the last week, we’ve seen that the clear plan of the Cummings inspired Government is to ratchet up the tension between those who are deemed to be ‘elitist liberals’ and ‘the people’. The narrative is that Parliament, the judges, the BBC, the mainstream media and anyone else who can possibly labelled a liberal snowflake, are standing in the way of the will of the people, by trying to prevent brexit.

This is the type of politics that leads to distrust, this is the type of politics that leads to disillusionment and anger and stasis, it is the politics that every failed state that has ever existed has engaged in – politics working against the interests of the people.

Now, let me pin my colours firmly to the mast – I don’t give a **** that someone who doesn’t like foreign people voted to leave the EU, I don’t give a **** that there are those out there, with no clue, who make meaningless claims that the nation’s ‘sovereignty’ will be enhanced by leaving the EU; I don’t give a **** that those who are quite happy to unlawfully shut down Parliament are the ones shouting loudest about democracy and the ‘sovereign state.’

I do give a **** about my children and the fact that they might reach adulthood in a country that doesn’t feel able to work together with other countries; I do give a **** about the fact that their future may be jeopordised by a diminishing economy, I do give a **** about the fact that they won’t be able to travel freely around other EU countries; and I give a **** that the future of their society, indeed our society will be blighted by stupid people who tell them not to listen to experts and that the institutions which make and uphold the law and exist to give them a voice are not to be trusted. And I give a massive **** that my fellow Brits, good people, honest people, working people, work-shy people, fat people, thin people, brown people, black people, gay people, straight people, educated people and every one else are being taken for a ride by the biggest political con trick that has ever been unleashed upon our society.

And it is because of that, that I will write my angry, sometimes barely coherent pieces for Politics Punked and it is because of this that I will not give up on the campaign to bring an end to the vacant politics that we are being forced to endure.


A long but worthwhile read

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFzQQiPWkAANfN1?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

Way back in 2015


1179047637535862784

[Ammi]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/01/pretty-vacant/

This is not a drill anymore. This is not something that can be passed off as a phase, something for people to talk about when there’s nothing on the Telly, or when you’re down the pub, or sitting next to the boring person from work who’s invited you and your Mrs round for dinner.

This is much, much worse than that.

Our politics is being wrenched apart. Actually, I’m going further than that, our society is being wrenched apart – and frankly I’m terrified.

And when I say wrenched, I mean it. It goes well beyond the realignment of the political plates such as when the Tories changed from One Nation Heathite to Thatcherism or when Labour decided to leap from Blair to Corbyn; no, this is an earthquake that comes together with a tsunami and ends up with poverty and homelessness and probably an appeal involving Bob Geldof and Lenny Henry.

Project Fear you say? Well you can **** right off; the things we feared would accompany Brexit are nothing compared to the things that we need to worry about now. I can cope with queues at Dover, I can cope with an increase in the price of bacon, I can cope with having to wait for an hour to get out of the Easy Jet queue at Tenerife airport, but I draw the line at the systematic undermining of the institutions that have worked pretty efficiently at maintaining our democracy for the last couple of hundred years. And, most of all, I draw a line at a concerted attempt to pit me against my fellow Brits.

Since Johnson (I refused to call him by his first name, or even write his first name), became Prime Minister – elected by absolutely no one I know or would care to know – our executive has become a danger to our society. I don’t write that sentence lightly, I’ve thought about it and I urge you to do the same – our executive is now a danger to our society. It is why I’m so scared, because it is absolutely unique in our political history for us to have a government which no longer has as its primary intention a desire to keep us all safe and healthy, educated and content, but instead seeks to pit us against each other by stirring up hatred and discontent and anger.

And why?

English nationalism, that’s why, English nationalism wrapped up in the idiocy of Brexit.

We shouldn’t be here. It should never have happened. I’ll give you a brief potted history according to me – ignore it if you want. By 2010, the Tories had decided that they’d had enough of not being in control. David Cameron, wanted to win power for himself and for his party and for his class (yep, I’ll stand by that, there is a class element to all of this, and it’s class with a ****ed up capital ‘c’). He wanted to kill off the Lib-Dems – which was easy, Clegg’s party of Lemmings, simply jumped off the cliff for him; and he wanted to kill off UKIP, because they could potentially take enough votes to keep him out of Downing Street. So he dreamt up the policy of an ‘in-out’ referendum on our membership of the EU. In the short term it did the trick for him – in the 2015 general election Cameron was elected with a small but workable majority, but in the long term it has been a disaster. Because Cameron – possibly the embodiment of upper-class, self-entitled, tie and crest, arrogance – hadn’t conceived that he might lose a referendum or what to do if that came to pass. So, far from killing off the right wing his referendum brought about Brexit – the most crippling act of national self-harm that this country has ever inflicted upon itself.

Cameron immediately resigned, because he hadn’t the wit or imagination to do anything else, and in his place Brexit monsters started to grow and thrive: just as the Orcs were created in the sulphurous pits of Mordor by that evil Wizard in The Hobbit, so Farage, Cummings, Aaron Banks, Mark Francois, Jacob Rees-****ing-Mogg and a legion of others were created on the anvil of Brexit. And these people are English Nationalists – they hate Europe, they hate the idea of collegiate international cooperation, they hate the idea of a shared purpose and a common identity and compromise, they’re suspicious of everything because they are weak and stupid and they have an arrogant and warped sense of the history of Britain. Brexit has created them, given them their chance. Cameron gave them their chance.

The referendum on Britain’s position within the European Union was a catastrophic bucket of ****e from start to finish – let’s get a few things straight: first, a referendum that can fundamentally determine a nation’s position in the world should never be born out the political expediency for a single politician and his party, that is just madness; second, a referendum which allows for a possible outcome that is not properly outlined to voters, because the complexity of what they are being asked to decide is not adequately appreciated by those asking the question, is simply dangerous; third, a referendum were the campaigns waged by both sides are steeped in lies and misinformation lacks legitimacy; and, finally, when the conduct of those running campaigns for one side or another is questionable within the remit of the Electoral Law, the result should be treated with great care, not hailed as a triumphant demonstration of people’s desires.

The referendum on Britain’s place in Europe was an ill-conceived manipulation of democracy and cannot be justified by the fatuous claim that the result is an expression of the ‘will of the people.’ Because, quite frankly, what did the people will? Who the **** knows, not this political ****-squad that’s for sure – but sadly, very few Brexiters are honest enough to concede that.

They would rather plunge our country into social and economic uncertainty than accept that Brexit might not after all be in the Country’s best interests. They would rather undermine their own democracy than accept that the flaws in the referendum make a seamless and successful exit from the European Union pretty much impossible. They claim that those who point this out are traitors and collaborators hell-bent on ‘thwarting of the people’s will’, and this the vacant rhetoric that suits them – because the ‘us and them‘ narrative is as simple and effective as it is dangerous and meaningless.

It started during the referendum campaign itself, when we had the first glimpse of two terrifyingly ugly traits that have grown like bind weed around the throat of our political culture – the first was the rejection of ‘expert opinion.’ Economists, constitutional lawyers, international lawyers, businessmen, diplomats, lorry drivers, trade unionist and politicians with decades of experience, have all had their opinions not just rejected but deemed illegitimate – they, the Brexit nationalists have said, just want to stop the will of the people with their devious knowledge – and half the people have accepted this; whilst the second trait is the encouragement to distrust the institutions of state – Parliament, is no longer the mouthpiece of the people, it is the enemy; the judiciary is not deemed to be objective and fair but derided as being elitist and establishment.

In the last week, we’ve seen that the clear plan of the Cummings inspired Government is to ratchet up the tension between those who are deemed to be ‘elitist liberals’ and ‘the people’. The narrative is that Parliament, the judges, the BBC, the mainstream media and anyone else who can possibly labelled a liberal snowflake, are standing in the way of the will of the people, by trying to prevent brexit.

This is the type of politics that leads to distrust, this is the type of politics that leads to disillusionment and anger and stasis, it is the politics that every failed state that has ever existed has engaged in – politics working against the interests of the people.

Now, let me pin my colours firmly to the mast – I don’t give a **** that someone who doesn’t like foreign people voted to leave the EU, I don’t give a **** that there are those out there, with no clue, who make meaningless claims that the nation’s ‘sovereignty’ will be enhanced by leaving the EU; I don’t give a **** that those who are quite happy to unlawfully shut down Parliament are the ones shouting loudest about democracy and the ‘sovereign state.’

I do give a **** about my children and the fact that they might reach adulthood in a country that doesn’t feel able to work together with other countries; I do give a **** about the fact that their future may be jeopordised by a diminishing economy, I do give a **** about the fact that they won’t be able to travel freely around other EU countries; and I give a **** that the future of their society, indeed our society will be blighted by stupid people who tell them not to listen to experts and that the institutions which make and uphold the law and exist to give them a voice are not to be trusted. And I give a massive **** that my fellow Brits, good people, honest people, working people, work-shy people, fat people, thin people, brown people, black people, gay people, straight people, educated people and every one else are being taken for a ride by the biggest political con trick that has ever been unleashed upon our society.

And it is because of that, that I will write my angry, sometimes barely coherent pieces for Politics Punked and it is because of this that I will not give up on the campaign to bring an end to the vacant politics that we are being forced to endure.

..it’s a good write, Slim, whoever the writer is...although it does a little bit, fall into things it's fundamentally against, as it quite leans toward ‘them and us’ itself...it’s a vicious circle I feel tbh...we are terrified for our children and their future world and that of their children...but the negativity of that terror is just feeding the beast, is what I’m thinking....we are definitely all living through a political changing time in history that has never been seen before, I agree with that...politics is more like a Facebook/Twitter/Social Media game etc...click bait politics, which is getting a huge public attention...

...anyways...the article made me think of a phrase that would seem very apt...’you can fool some of the people all of the time...’....:sad:...while the elite become more elite at the expense of those who have helped them on their elite way...

[joeysteele]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/01/pretty-vacant/

This is not a drill anymore. This is not something that can be passed off as a phase, something for people to talk about when there’s nothing on the Telly, or when you’re down the pub, or sitting next to the boring person from work who’s invited you and your Mrs round for dinner.

This is much, much worse than that.

Our politics is being wrenched apart. Actually, I’m going further than that, our society is being wrenched apart – and frankly I’m terrified.

And when I say wrenched, I mean it. It goes well beyond the realignment of the political plates such as when the Tories changed from One Nation Heathite to Thatcherism or when Labour decided to leap from Blair to Corbyn; no, this is an earthquake that comes together with a tsunami and ends up with poverty and homelessness and probably an appeal involving Bob Geldof and Lenny Henry.

Project Fear you say? Well you can **** right off; the things we feared would accompany Brexit are nothing compared to the things that we need to worry about now. I can cope with queues at Dover, I can cope with an increase in the price of bacon, I can cope with having to wait for an hour to get out of the Easy Jet queue at Tenerife airport, but I draw the line at the systematic undermining of the institutions that have worked pretty efficiently at maintaining our democracy for the last couple of hundred years. And, most of all, I draw a line at a concerted attempt to pit me against my fellow Brits.

Since Johnson (I refused to call him by his first name, or even write his first name), became Prime Minister – elected by absolutely no one I know or would care to know – our executive has become a danger to our society. I don’t write that sentence lightly, I’ve thought about it and I urge you to do the same – our executive is now a danger to our society. It is why I’m so scared, because it is absolutely unique in our political history for us to have a government which no longer has as its primary intention a desire to keep us all safe and healthy, educated and content, but instead seeks to pit us against each other by stirring up hatred and discontent and anger.

And why?

English nationalism, that’s why, English nationalism wrapped up in the idiocy of Brexit.

We shouldn’t be here. It should never have happened. I’ll give you a brief potted history according to me – ignore it if you want. By 2010, the Tories had decided that they’d had enough of not being in control. David Cameron, wanted to win power for himself and for his party and for his class (yep, I’ll stand by that, there is a class element to all of this, and it’s class with a ****ed up capital ‘c’). He wanted to kill off the Lib-Dems – which was easy, Clegg’s party of Lemmings, simply jumped off the cliff for him; and he wanted to kill off UKIP, because they could potentially take enough votes to keep him out of Downing Street. So he dreamt up the policy of an ‘in-out’ referendum on our membership of the EU. In the short term it did the trick for him – in the 2015 general election Cameron was elected with a small but workable majority, but in the long term it has been a disaster. Because Cameron – possibly the embodiment of upper-class, self-entitled, tie and crest, arrogance – hadn’t conceived that he might lose a referendum or what to do if that came to pass. So, far from killing off the right wing his referendum brought about Brexit – the most crippling act of national self-harm that this country has ever inflicted upon itself.

Cameron immediately resigned, because he hadn’t the wit or imagination to do anything else, and in his place Brexit monsters started to grow and thrive: just as the Orcs were created in the sulphurous pits of Mordor by that evil Wizard in The Hobbit, so Farage, Cummings, Aaron Banks, Mark Francois, Jacob Rees-****ing-Mogg and a legion of others were created on the anvil of Brexit. And these people are English Nationalists – they hate Europe, they hate the idea of collegiate international cooperation, they hate the idea of a shared purpose and a common identity and compromise, they’re suspicious of everything because they are weak and stupid and they have an arrogant and warped sense of the history of Britain. Brexit has created them, given them their chance. Cameron gave them their chance.

The referendum on Britain’s position within the European Union was a catastrophic bucket of ****e from start to finish – let’s get a few things straight: first, a referendum that can fundamentally determine a nation’s position in the world should never be born out the political expediency for a single politician and his party, that is just madness; second, a referendum which allows for a possible outcome that is not properly outlined to voters, because the complexity of what they are being asked to decide is not adequately appreciated by those asking the question, is simply dangerous; third, a referendum were the campaigns waged by both sides are steeped in lies and misinformation lacks legitimacy; and, finally, when the conduct of those running campaigns for one side or another is questionable within the remit of the Electoral Law, the result should be treated with great care, not hailed as a triumphant demonstration of people’s desires.

The referendum on Britain’s place in Europe was an ill-conceived manipulation of democracy and cannot be justified by the fatuous claim that the result is an expression of the ‘will of the people.’ Because, quite frankly, what did the people will? Who the **** knows, not this political ****-squad that’s for sure – but sadly, very few Brexiters are honest enough to concede that.

They would rather plunge our country into social and economic uncertainty than accept that Brexit might not after all be in the Country’s best interests. They would rather undermine their own democracy than accept that the flaws in the referendum make a seamless and successful exit from the European Union pretty much impossible. They claim that those who point this out are traitors and collaborators hell-bent on ‘thwarting of the people’s will’, and this the vacant rhetoric that suits them – because the ‘us and them‘ narrative is as simple and effective as it is dangerous and meaningless.

It started during the referendum campaign itself, when we had the first glimpse of two terrifyingly ugly traits that have grown like bind weed around the throat of our political culture – the first was the rejection of ‘expert opinion.’ Economists, constitutional lawyers, international lawyers, businessmen, diplomats, lorry drivers, trade unionist and politicians with decades of experience, have all had their opinions not just rejected but deemed illegitimate – they, the Brexit nationalists have said, just want to stop the will of the people with their devious knowledge – and half the people have accepted this; whilst the second trait is the encouragement to distrust the institutions of state – Parliament, is no longer the mouthpiece of the people, it is the enemy; the judiciary is not deemed to be objective and fair but derided as being elitist and establishment.

In the last week, we’ve seen that the clear plan of the Cummings inspired Government is to ratchet up the tension between those who are deemed to be ‘elitist liberals’ and ‘the people’. The narrative is that Parliament, the judges, the BBC, the mainstream media and anyone else who can possibly labelled a liberal snowflake, are standing in the way of the will of the people, by trying to prevent brexit.

This is the type of politics that leads to distrust, this is the type of politics that leads to disillusionment and anger and stasis, it is the politics that every failed state that has ever existed has engaged in – politics working against the interests of the people.

Now, let me pin my colours firmly to the mast – I don’t give a **** that someone who doesn’t like foreign people voted to leave the EU, I don’t give a **** that there are those out there, with no clue, who make meaningless claims that the nation’s ‘sovereignty’ will be enhanced by leaving the EU; I don’t give a **** that those who are quite happy to unlawfully shut down Parliament are the ones shouting loudest about democracy and the ‘sovereign state.’

I do give a **** about my children and the fact that they might reach adulthood in a country that doesn’t feel able to work together with other countries; I do give a **** about the fact that their future may be jeopordised by a diminishing economy, I do give a **** about the fact that they won’t be able to travel freely around other EU countries; and I give a **** that the future of their society, indeed our society will be blighted by stupid people who tell them not to listen to experts and that the institutions which make and uphold the law and exist to give them a voice are not to be trusted. And I give a massive **** that my fellow Brits, good people, honest people, working people, work-shy people, fat people, thin people, brown people, black people, gay people, straight people, educated people and every one else are being taken for a ride by the biggest political con trick that has ever been unleashed upon our society.

And it is because of that, that I will write my angry, sometimes barely coherent pieces for Politics Punked and it is because of this that I will not give up on the campaign to bring an end to the vacant politics that we are being forced to endure.


Brilliant piece and compelling read.

The whole mess is really now concerning.

Superb work SlimReaper, superb.

[Kazanne]

This was sent to me this morning by a friend , a piece from a remainer, an interesting read for those interested in both sides of the coin I thought...………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ……………………………………..

From a remainer: an interesting read, and very well written.
I hate politics, I voted to remain in Europe, however I like many other people was out voted. I respect the fact that it was a public vote and the majority voted leave. I'm sick of all the arguing, and negativity, I'm so sick of the news on TV I don't watch it anymore I turn it off, I scroll past the Brexit stuff. Then I read something my husband's uncle posted and I have to say I agree with him. Read if you want to, scroll past if you don't, I don't mind, its freedom of choice, were supposed to be a democratic society after all xx
REMAINERS!
IT WAS YOU WHO CREATED THIS HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU ATTEMPTED TO THWART BREXIT!
If you're questioning why there's so much hostility and anger around the topic of Brexit, then let me help put your confusion to rest. Let's start from the premise that both sides played a little dirty and were a tad economical with the truth. That's the way all political campaigns are run anyway, so let's not be coy or righteous on the how's, why's or wherefores! It wasn't Brexiteers who infused words like racist, bigot, little Englanders, Nazis, gammons and of course fascist into the debate, so now playing the victim on the language being used is typical leftwing hypocrisy. Attacking anything that doesn't fit your philosophy or agenda needs to be attacked and demonised. Sound familiar? Neither Brexiteers or Remainers own a mystical crystal ball, so predicting the future with any such precision or certainty would have been untruthful - or guesswork at best. Foretelling exactly what the future would hold, regardless of the referendum outcome, was and still is impossible - and given the behaviour and attitude we have all seen from Brussels, few could argue that they are democratic or honest, so leaving the EU now could have saved us all from an accidental, or even a deliberate political, bullet!
What we CAN say factually, was that Parliament passed this decision on to the people because they didn't want the responsibility. Whatever we decided would be unequivocally respected and implemented. Up until that point we all knew exactly where we stood - and the only thing required to solve this issue was a vote! One side of the debate would of course win and unfortunately - like every vote - one would not. Either way we would all have to accept the result, because that's how we the British decide our differences - and the only way our democratic process works to solve views and opinions!
Yet within days of the vote being announced, the plotting and collusion to overturn that outcome was deliberately set in motion - by those with the pretence to honour democracy. Fueled by Remainer politicians - those who once abided by electoral results, but voted to remain - we're now given a void to be disrespectful and contemptuous to all those who had disagreed with their narrative. This farcical game of electoral theft was afoot.
Now if the vote had gone the other way and the country had chosen to remain - and Parliament then decided to ignore and overturn that outcome - the outcry from Remainers would be valid and warrant genuine anger. However, playing the victim over tone, rhetoric and language - on the pretence of taking some moral high ground - is false and reeks of hypocrisy and desperation. Politicians are guilty of attempting to cheat 17.4million people. If it was money then it would be fraud and a criminal offence. Those Remainers who think this is acceptable are also guilty - not of fraud, but being undemocratic and for erroneously using terminology that you yourselves are in fact all guilty of!
One thing we can all agree on is that those who believe they are liberal and Democratic are anything but - and those who said they would respect the referendum result never will. Also, those who believe that Parliament represents the people, can now see they clearly don't! The establishment was once viewed as the string pullers to our puppet politicians. Maybe now Remainers will realise that it's the EU bureaucrats and their globalists friends who operate in the shadows to undermine British politics - and your right to a fair democratic process! The second you chose to ignore other people's democracy, that's when you need to have a long hard look in the mirror, it's at that very moment you have denied yourself that very right!

[Cherie]

This was sent to me this morning by a friend , a piece from a remainer, an interesting read for those interested in both sides of the coin I thought...………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ……………………………………..

From a remainer: an interesting read, and very well written.
I hate politics, I voted to remain in Europe, however I like many other people was out voted. I respect the fact that it was a public vote and the majority voted leave. I'm sick of all the arguing, and negativity, I'm so sick of the news on TV I don't watch it anymore I turn it off, I scroll past the Brexit stuff. Then I read something my husband's uncle posted and I have to say I agree with him. Read if you want to, scroll past if you don't, I don't mind, its freedom of choice, were supposed to be a democratic society after all xx
REMAINERS!
IT WAS YOU WHO CREATED THIS HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU ATTEMPTED TO THWART BREXIT!
If you're questioning why there's so much hostility and anger around the topic of Brexit, then let me help put your confusion to rest. Let's start from the premise that both sides played a little dirty and were a tad economical with the truth. That's the way all political campaigns are run anyway, so let's not be coy or righteous on the how's, why's or wherefores! It wasn't Brexiteers who infused words like racist, bigot, little Englanders, Nazis, gammons and of course fascist into the debate, so now playing the victim on the language being used is typical leftwing hypocrisy. Attacking anything that doesn't fit your philosophy or agenda needs to be attacked and demonised. Sound familiar? Neither Brexiteers or Remainers own a mystical crystal ball, so predicting the future with any such precision or certainty would have been untruthful - or guesswork at best. Foretelling exactly what the future would hold, regardless of the referendum outcome, was and still is impossible - and given the behaviour and attitude we have all seen from Brussels, few could argue that they are democratic or honest, so leaving the EU now could have saved us all from an accidental, or even a deliberate political, bullet!
What we CAN say factually, was that Parliament passed this decision on to the people because they didn't want the responsibility. Whatever we decided would be unequivocally respected and implemented. Up until that point we all knew exactly where we stood - and the only thing required to solve this issue was a vote! One side of the debate would of course win and unfortunately - like every vote - one would not. Either way we would all have to accept the result, because that's how we the British decide our differences - and the only way our democratic process works to solve views and opinions!
Yet within days of the vote being announced, the plotting and collusion to overturn that outcome was deliberately set in motion - by those with the pretence to honour democracy. Fueled by Remainer politicians - those who once abided by electoral results, but voted to remain - we're now given a void to be disrespectful and contemptuous to all those who had disagreed with their narrative. This farcical game of electoral theft was afoot.
Now if the vote had gone the other way and the country had chosen to remain - and Parliament then decided to ignore and overturn that outcome - the outcry from Remainers would be valid and warrant genuine anger. However, playing the victim over tone, rhetoric and language - on the pretence of taking some moral high ground - is false and reeks of hypocrisy and desperation. Politicians are guilty of attempting to cheat 17.4million people. If it was money then it would be fraud and a criminal offence. Those Remainers who think this is acceptable are also guilty - not of fraud, but being undemocratic and for erroneously using terminology that you yourselves are in fact all guilty of!
One thing we can all agree on is that those who believe they are liberal and Democratic are anything but - and those who said they would respect the referendum result never will. Also, those who believe that Parliament represents the people, can now see they clearly don't! The establishment was once viewed as the string pullers to our puppet politicians. Maybe now Remainers will realise that it's the EU bureaucrats and their globalists friends who operate in the shadows to undermine British politics - and your right to a fair democratic process! The second you chose to ignore other people's democracy, that's when you need to have a long hard look in the mirror, it's at that very moment you have denied yourself that very right!

is the writer on TiBB...another good read, and makes some very valid points

[Ammi]

...it was you who created this hostile environment..!!!!!...:laugh:...it’s not really a ‘both sides’ opinion...anyways, around and around we go with this...it’s his fault, Miss...no it’s her fault...etc, etc... we are all in this country together and Brexit will impact on all of us, plus our children and our children’s children ...Brexit is not just for those who voted for it, it’s for everyone and it’s for life, not just for Halloween or Christmas...so to aim for a Brexit that would be in the interest of everyone as much as it can be, rather than a hard/no deal Brexit that some won’t survive...literally won’t survive...should be the aim of every single person, regardless of political leaning or EU referendum vote...

[Kazanne]

is the writer on TiBB...another good read, and makes some very valid points

No Cherie,they are not on TIBB, but I thought it quite interesting.:wavey:

[Toy Soldier]

This was sent to me this morning by a friend , a piece from a remainer, an interesting read for those interested in both sides of the coin I thought...………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ……………………………………..

From a remainer: an interesting read, and very well written.

...


REMAINERS!
IT WAS YOU WHO CREATED THIS HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU ATTEMPTED TO THWART BREXIT!!

*1000 more words of clear Brexiteer anger and propaganda*

:joker: come on ffs. "From a remainer". I know a Nigerian Prince who would love to have your email address Kazanne.

[bots]

People do realise that Cummings is un-elected and is directing brexit from the shadows, don't they?

[Kazanne]

:joker: come on ffs. "From a remainer". I know a Nigerian Prince who would love to have your email address Kazanne.

Well take that up with the person who wrote it:shrug: by the way SOME remainers do think we should honour the peoples vote.

[Ammi]

...Brexiting in a way that could only benefit a minority elite...is dishonouring a vote and betraying the entire people of a country...

[Toy Soldier]

Well take that up with the person who wrote it:shrug: by the way SOME remainers do think we should honour the peoples vote.OK but even if you believe the first part is a real remainer - which seems dubious - it's still a long rant written by a Brexiteer with a brief intro from a remainer. 80% of it doesn't even PRETEND to be written by someone who voted remain? And as for the content, it's more one-sided angry Brexit ranting pretending to be balanced by posing as a remainer repost. How is "THIS IS ALL UR FAULT DIRTY REMAINERSSS" balanced, compelling or new?

[Niamh.]

Definitely written by a remainer :hehe:

[Ammi]

...the first sentence is a little bit of an indication...even if the screaming in ya face capital letters were ignored...people don’t address someone as ‘you’ if they’re one of those ‘you’ themselves...they would say come on, I know we voted Remain...BUT...etc...

REMAINERS!
IT WAS YOU WHO CREATED THIS HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU ATTEMPTED TO THWART BREXIT!

[Ammi]

...it was a good, balanced read up until the first sentence...:laugh:../...I’m gently teasing...

[The Slim Reaper]

1179320501635862530

[The Slim Reaper]

This well written song was authored by a balanced remainer talking to other remainers.

0VU5902u_o4

[Cherie]

As someone who voted remain I am embarrassed by the name calling of people who voted to leave for legitimate reasons :shrug: I think the article sums that up well

[smudgie]

Visit to the Queen on the cards again.
JRM ready to go to the palace.
Queen’s speech due 14th October.

[The Slim Reaper]

As someone who voted remain I am embarrassed by the name calling of people who voted to leave for legitimate reasons :shrug: I think the article sums that up well

What are the legitimate reasons that leavers have been using for wanting to leave?

[joeysteele]

OK but even if you believe the first part is a real remainer - which seems dubious - it's still a long rant written by a Brexiteer with a brief intro from a remainer. 80% of it doesn't even PRETEND to be written by someone who voted remain? And as for the content, it's more one-sided angry Brexit ranting pretending to be balanced by posing as a remainer repost. How is "THIS IS ALL UR FAULT DIRTY REMAINERSSS" balanced, compelling or new?



It's frankly as near unbelievable anything could possibly be..

As balanced as all the weight of everything on only one side of the scales.

[joeysteele]

...the first sentence is a little bit of an indication...even if the screaming in ya face capital letters were ignored...people don’t address someone as ‘you’ if they’re one of those ‘you’ themselves...they would say come on, I know we voted Remain...BUT...etc...

REMAINERS!
IT WAS YOU WHO CREATED THIS HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU ATTEMPTED TO THWART BREXIT!

Spot on.

[Twosugars]

https://i.imgur.com/gQe7Eqdl.jpg

[Toy Soldier]

What are the legitimate reasons that leavers have been using for wanting to leave?

The *only* legitimate reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter on why they want to leave, is that they hope it'll be a starting point in dismantling the toxic "City of London" finance economy / draining the FatCat swamp. Which is a noble goal.

Unfortunately it's only *legitimate* reasoning if you take it as what it is, because it's deeply flawed reasoning... as that's not what's going to happen and it's those exact "swamp monsters" who stand to be the ONLY people to benefit from Brexit.

[The Slim Reaper]

The *only* legitimate reasoning I've heard from a Leave voter on why they want to leave, is that they hope it'll be a starting point in dismantling the toxic "City of London" finance economy / draining the FatCat swamp. Which is a noble goal.

Unfortunately it's only *legitimate* reasoning if you take it as what it is, because it's deeply flawed reasoning... as that's not what's going to happen and it's those exact "swamp monsters" who stand to be the ONLY people to benefit from Brexit.

There is no shame in being conned; it's happened to all of us at some point, whether in a relationship, or buying a product, but these folks pretend they weren't conned because they never believed the lies they were told to begin with, but then can't tell you why brexit is a good idea and how it will benefit them and their families.

I've tried talking to these people, but ultimately they just don't want to say publicly that they're willing to force pain on the country because they want to stick it to immigrants. When the facts and costs to the country don't make them pause for a second, then it shows it's purely an ideological pursuit.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/02/johnson-s-brexit-plan-no-viability-no-decency-no-hope

It was only moments into his speech that Boris Johnson started lying. "We will under no circumstances," he said, "have checks at or near the border in Northern Ireland." It was false. Overnight, the details of his Brexit proposals to Brussels had leaked. They showed that there clearly would be checks. The British commitment to preventing any customs infrastructure in Ireland would be broken.

Once upon a time, Johnson could make these claims because he was engaged in the magical thinking of 'frictionless trade' and 'alternative arrangements'. There's no excuse for that now.

The Johnson offer to the EU will be published this afternoon, but last night's leak by the Telegraph's Peter Foster was largely corroborated by the details the prime minister offered in his speech. It works by separating out two elements of a future trading relationship: customs and regulations.

Customs involves the assessment of tariffs on goods. Regulations involve checks on whether the goods comply with the rules of the country they're being sent to. In the EU, none of this matters - you have the same tariff regime and the same rules. Outside the EU, it all needs to be checked.

Johnson's plan sets up two timetables - one for customs and one for regulations.

The customs timetable kicks in first. His deal, like Theresa May's, would have a short transition until 2021. But after that, Northern Ireland and the rest of Britain would leave the customs union with no backstop. Johnson is taking no prisoners here. He is refusing any concessions. The lock keeping Northern Ireland attached to the Republic is gone. That means checks.

How would Johnson try to avoid them? He plans to have a free trade agreement (FTA) with the EU. But that's extremely unlikely to be achieved by 2021. Free trade agreements between major partners take a long time. The one between the EU and Canada took seven years.

But even if he did manage it, there would still be checks. FTAs can hammer down tariffs between countries. But even when that's done, goods have to go through a laborious process of checks, called country of origin requirements, to ensure they're really from the state they're being sent from. This is so that other countries can't surreptitiously sneak their way in with no tariffs as part of a trade deal they didn't negotiate.

The government rubbished a previous leak this week which said there'd be customs posts on either side of the border to do these sorts of checks. But actually it seems inevitable that there will be. Their promises to the contrary are meaningless. They rely on the idea that new technology will magically be invented in the next two years to make them unnecessary. This will not happen. It is one of the great myths of the Brexit argument.

This plan is a complete rejection of the British government's commitment in the December 2017 joint report to avoid a hard border, or any physical infrastructure, or checks or controls. It goes against the promises made to the people of the island on both sides - the Republic, which had no say in all this, and Northern Ireland, which voted against it. There is no consent from these communities for these proposals. They have made clear they are against what they propose. Johnson wants to impose it on them regardless. It is a threat to the peace process. It is a betrayal of the promise of continued north-south cooperation. It is a complete and total abdication of moral responsibility.

The approach to regulations seemingly involves more concessions. Northern Ireland would remain aligned with the EU on agricultural and industrial goods regulations. This is dynamic, meaning that as the EU updated its rules, they would update theirs.

On the face of it, this seems significant. It would involve checks on the Irish sea between Britain and Northern Ireland, which is the kind of thing the DUP - whose votes Johnson would need to get a deal through - vociferously objects to.

But there's a catch. The alignment only lasts until 2025. At that point Northern Ireland gets a say on what happens. Does it want to stay aligned to the EU rules or join the rest of the UK? In practice, this gives the DUP a veto, which they will invariable use. The language is democratic, but in reality it simply serves to stagger the regulatory departure.

It's quite a remarkably tone-deaf package. Basically the UK is taking a bullying position to the EU without having anything to bully them with.

Think about their incentives. This is the kind of thing which essential to successful negotiation but which the Johnson administration is seemingly incapable of.

If Brussels accepted the package, Ireland would be thrown under the bus. It would be a complete betrayal, something they have made clear they would never do.

That's not just a moral point. It is a strategic one. If they go against Ireland, no other member state would trust them again. The offer the EU makes to countries - that they become stronger by working together - would be shown to be false.

So why do it? Johnson is presumably gambling on the fact that if they reject it they'd face no-deal, which would involve the border emerging immediately, without the lead-in to 2021 or 2025.

But this assessment is very weak, because the moral reality of that point is inverted. If the UK decides to leave without a deal, then the consequences are its responsibility. But if the EU signed up to this deal, then it shares that responsibility. And on the areas it cares about - checks on the border, north-south cooperation - those consequences would be equivalent to no-deal.

Such a move would also destroy the EU's credibility in negotiations around the world. It would be seen to buckle on all its key demands in the face of intransigence and threats. Why wouldn't other negotiating partners try the same trick?

But even aside from all that, the threat is empty because no-deal is not actually the consequence of the EU rejection of the deal. The Benn Act ensures that if there is no deal he must ask for an extension. He insists this is not true and that No.10 has found some kind of loophole in the legislation. Given his record, that is likely to be either false or a gross overstatement of some pitifully weak tactic. But even if it were true, parliament could work around it or see Johnson forced to retreat via the courts.

So the EU's incentives are not his deal or no-deal. They are his deal or extension. And extension opens up the possibility of a less insane negotiating team, or even another referendum with a result to Remain, making the whole border problem go away.

It's hard to come up with anything positive to say about this. It shows no understanding of the EU's red lines, no basic moral responsibility towards the problem in Ireland which the Brexit vote created, no consistency with the previous commitments of the British government, no viability, no practicality, no realism, and no concessions at all to the half of the population who voted Remain. It is almost impressive that after all this time they have come up with a proposal that has nothing whatsoever to recommend it.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/02/brexit-the-great-british-heist/

Brexit means…taking back control of the things we haven’t lost, to lose control of the things we already have.

As a middle aged man, I am beginning to fall into the trap of yearning nostalgia for my youth. I now think that the good old days were better than today. The music was certainly better in my day, as was Scottish football. But the reason I have a yearning nostalgia for the bygone days of yore is the exact opposite of why many people people voted for Brexit, I am wistful for a time when British people wanted to be part of some sort of liberal internationalism with our European neighbours through the common market. I am also wistful for the day when foreigners were made welcome rather than seen as some sort of existential threat. But nostalgia is a powerful emotion. It needs to be harnessed correctly rather than exploited. And right now, nostalgia is being harnessed and exploited by all the wrong people.

Many Leave voters voted to make things better. Many people who voted for Brexit did so for emotional reasons connected to hope. Leave voters wanted to jump into a time machine back to a Utopian Britain that may or may not have existed. Back to a time and place where Britain was a country full of hope.

Hope is a powerful thing. Politicians ruthlessly exploit it. And with Brexit, it has been exploited to such a degree, it has become a political sting. Brexit is the greatest political heist that Britain has ever seen. A gigantic con led by a group of right-wing libertarians who have exploited the hopes of millions of people to convince them that they were taking back control, when in fact, they were giving the control away to the people who conned them. So instead of making things better, Brexit will make things a lot worse. Britain will become a place where the hope becomes hopeless.

Many Leave voters feel disenfranchised. I get that. They are right to feel that. But they wrongly believe that the EU is to blame. The tragedy of Brexit is that the EU isn’t the source of problems facing Britain. Instead, decades of UK government failure are the true problem. Failed economic policy. Failed industrial strategy (or lack of). Failed regional regeneration. Failed social policy. All of which have created a society where the rich get richer and our communities and public services pay the price.

The hollowing out of Britain’s industrial communities and rampant privatisation by the Tories in the 1980s sowed the seeds of Brexit. It led to a giant fire sale of British industry, creating huge regional inequality and many of our communities have never recovered. Our industrial heartlands were decimated. Towns became rust belts. In the years since the mid 1980s, to put it mildly, the pendulum of hope has swung away from millions of people.

Fast forward 20 years. The financial crisis of 2008. I don’t remember a nurse, doctor, teacher, police officer or local council causing this crisis, yet, they were the ones who ultimately paid the price for unethical gluttony in our financial services industry. What followed the financial crisis was a decade of austerity with the destruction of many public services and a drop in real wages that created a new generation of poverty, a million visitors a year to food banks and a whole new cycle of resentment and the destruction of hope.

For four decades, millions of people within communities right across the country have seen a decline in their social fabric. The key community frameworks of a happy and stable society have been dismantled, defunded or sold off. It has made many people unhappy, disenfranchised and understandably, wanting something or someone to blame.

Sadly, it appears that many people have lost sight of the root cause of who to blame for this decline. Millions of people have been manipulated by politicians and media into mistakenly believing that their loss of hope was somehow the fault of the EU and immigrants. This was also wrapped around repetitive jingoistic messages about the pre-EU days of war and British Empire delusion. These messages have been hammered home by the Tories and right-wing media outlets for over 30 years. And sadly, it has worked. Millions of people think that because of foreign incomers or foreign interference, they and their country have lost control. They have been told to take back control. There has been a huge diffusion from the usual suspects in politics and media to demonise the likes of the EU and immigrants to deflect from the failures of government. It is psychological projection. It is a gigantic con-trick.

The Romanians didn’t do this to you. Jean-Claude Juncker didn’t go this to you. Muslims didn’t do this to you. But I bloody well know who did do this to you. Repeatedly. You know, the ones who wear blue rosettes on election day; who wear bespoke pinstripe suits in parliament; who have exceedingly good manners and faux-politeness and who many people in Britain have a peculiar trait of forelock tugging towards. It is all a giant act of Tory manipulation. See through their veneer and the optics aren’t particularly pleasant. They are the ones that shafted this country. Not a Bulgarian immigrant looking for a better life.

Behind Brexit lies this harsh fact: 17.4 million people with good intentions were hoodwinked by a bunch of political chancers who conned a nation to enable them to further their career or feather their own nests (or the pound shorting nests of whatever hedge fund manager chum they happen to have an association with).

Brexit is part of a 30 year planned heist designed for us to vote against our best interests. And tragically, millions of people still won’t realise or admit this and continue to blame the wrong things. If you voted for Brexit, you may well have had good reason; employment, working conditions, housing, education – but I doubt you voted for what is actually happening now. The result is that Britain’s political system is being dismantled to the advantage of the very rich and powerful and to the detriment of the vast majority of UK citizens. This pattern has been continuing for over 30 years, and still millions of voters look in the wrong direction of blame.

As so it is. The great con that wrecked Britain has three parts to the story: Part 1. Thatcherism Part 2. Austerity

Political outcomes that have conned a nation have led to disaster capitalism and we are about to experience what that is like at the very sharp end of its next and final phase: Part 3: Brexit

[Alf]

There is no shame in being conned; it's happened to all of us at some point, whether in a relationship, or buying a product, but these folks pretend they weren't conned because they never believed the lies they were told to begin with, but then can't tell you why brexit is a good idea and how it will benefit them and their families.

I've tried talking to these people, but ultimately they just don't want to say publicly that they're willing to force pain on the country because they want to stick it to immigrants. When the facts and costs to the country don't make them pause for a second, then it shows it's purely an ideological pursuit.It doesn't matter what people tell you, you can't accept the answers anyway, whatever they say. You've already proved that you can't accept what the people decide.

You'd rather ignore and overturn the democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom for your own ideological pursuit.

Every voter that voted in the referendum did so in good faith that the result would be implemented, so you're not just trying make leavers votes worthless, you're also arguing in favour of making your own vote worthless.

Trust the people.

[The Slim Reaper]

It doesn't matter what people tell you, you can't accept the answers anyway, whatever they say. You've already proved that you can't accept what the people decide.

You'd rather ignore and overturn the democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom for your own ideological pursuit.

Every voter that voted in the referendum did so in good faith that the result would be implemented, so you're not just trying make leavers votes worthless, you're also arguing in favour of making your own vote worthless.

Trust the people.

And here we go again; no reasons just blame about not accepting brexit. It's the brexit government that have been unable to give you brexit, it has nothing to do with any remainer. For the 500th time, the reason they haven't given you a brexit yet, is because they know as soon as any plans are made concrete, they instantly show we'll be far worse off. That's why no deal is so fashionable these days, because it doesn't need to be explained.

People like me keep explaining the issues and problems, people like you keep going on about accepting a 3yr old referendum that has absolutely nothing to do with anything. If the government had gotten an acceptable deal, we'd already be out and it would still have been absolutely nothing to do with remainers.

[Kizzy]

@JasonGroves1

Trade Sec Liz Truss tells

@Emmabarnett

the Cabinet has no idea how Boris Johnson will keep his pledge to leave the EU on Oct 31 if he can't get a deal: 'I don't know, and if I did I wouldn't tell you.

No don't tell us...its not like it will affect our entire lives or owt...stupid bint!

[Twosugars]

I trust the 48 percent

[The Slim Reaper]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF3r021X0AAiMBs?format=jpg&name=900x900

Good for british workers...

[Niamh.]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF3r021X0AAiMBs?format=jpg&name=900x900

Good for british workers...

Did she really say that? :o

[Alf]

I trust the 48 percentI trust the 100 percent who voted.

[Kizzy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF3r021X0AAiMBs?format=jpg&name=900x900

Good for british workers...

I said this from day dot. ... This whole brexit charade was to break away from democracy, it's screamingly obvious :/

[Twosugars]

Did she really say that? :o

She did, stupid cow :laugh:

[Twosugars]

Johnson and his followers have mislaid a vision and picked up a process instead. “Get Brexit Done”, the slogan on every placard, is no more a goal than “chop an onion” is a meal. Brexit will not be “done” by the end of next month – it will be a slow, painstaking torture of trading negotiations that will take a decade or more to complete
The Guardian

[Niamh.]

She did, stupid cow :laugh:

Oh that's the same woman who wanted to starve the ROI into agreeing to losing the backstop, makes sense

[The Slim Reaper]

These are the folks that working class Britons are putting their faith in.

To be fair to Priti, I can't find her with a direct quote saying "leaving the eu would be an opportunity to cut EU social and employment protections"

I have found her making the same exact points though, so I'm guessing they've rounded a few things up to fit it on to a pic like this.

[Twosugars]

The whole brexit project is about getting rid of those pesky eu regulations on tax havens, workers rights and environment
Making disaster capitalists feel at home here

[Alf]

Priti is very pretty so she's already 1-0 up on Abbott for a start, that's before we even get to the rest of the stuff.

[joeysteele]

I would trust the 48% who voted remain obviously, however I agree we need to leave from the referendum vote.
In addition to trusting the 48% though, I would also trust the I think likely, the large proportion of leave voters too, who likely never expected, wanted or even voted for a ' no deal' exit.

[Twosugars]

Priti is very pretty so she's already 1-0 up on Abbott for a start, that's before we even get to the rest of the stuff.

An argument out of the trump book of childish taunting: my wife is prettier than yours therefore I'm right

:eek:

[Ammi]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/02/brexit-the-great-british-heist/

Brexit means…taking back control of the things we haven’t lost, to lose control of the things we already have.

As a middle aged man, I am beginning to fall into the trap of yearning nostalgia for my youth. I now think that the good old days were better than today. The music was certainly better in my day, as was Scottish football. But the reason I have a yearning nostalgia for the bygone days of yore is the exact opposite of why many people people voted for Brexit, I am wistful for a time when British people wanted to be part of some sort of liberal internationalism with our European neighbours through the common market. I am also wistful for the day when foreigners were made welcome rather than seen as some sort of existential threat. But nostalgia is a powerful emotion. It needs to be harnessed correctly rather than exploited. And right now, nostalgia is being harnessed and exploited by all the wrong people.

Many Leave voters voted to make things better. Many people who voted for Brexit did so for emotional reasons connected to hope. Leave voters wanted to jump into a time machine back to a Utopian Britain that may or may not have existed. Back to a time and place where Britain was a country full of hope.

Hope is a powerful thing. Politicians ruthlessly exploit it. And with Brexit, it has been exploited to such a degree, it has become a political sting. Brexit is the greatest political heist that Britain has ever seen. A gigantic con led by a group of right-wing libertarians who have exploited the hopes of millions of people to convince them that they were taking back control, when in fact, they were giving the control away to the people who conned them. So instead of making things better, Brexit will make things a lot worse. Britain will become a place where the hope becomes hopeless.

Many Leave voters feel disenfranchised. I get that. They are right to feel that. But they wrongly believe that the EU is to blame. The tragedy of Brexit is that the EU isn’t the source of problems facing Britain. Instead, decades of UK government failure are the true problem. Failed economic policy. Failed industrial strategy (or lack of). Failed regional regeneration. Failed social policy. All of which have created a society where the rich get richer and our communities and public services pay the price.

The hollowing out of Britain’s industrial communities and rampant privatisation by the Tories in the 1980s sowed the seeds of Brexit. It led to a giant fire sale of British industry, creating huge regional inequality and many of our communities have never recovered. Our industrial heartlands were decimated. Towns became rust belts. In the years since the mid 1980s, to put it mildly, the pendulum of hope has swung away from millions of people.

Fast forward 20 years. The financial crisis of 2008. I don’t remember a nurse, doctor, teacher, police officer or local council causing this crisis, yet, they were the ones who ultimately paid the price for unethical gluttony in our financial services industry. What followed the financial crisis was a decade of austerity with the destruction of many public services and a drop in real wages that created a new generation of poverty, a million visitors a year to food banks and a whole new cycle of resentment and the destruction of hope.

For four decades, millions of people within communities right across the country have seen a decline in their social fabric. The key community frameworks of a happy and stable society have been dismantled, defunded or sold off. It has made many people unhappy, disenfranchised and understandably, wanting something or someone to blame.

Sadly, it appears that many people have lost sight of the root cause of who to blame for this decline. Millions of people have been manipulated by politicians and media into mistakenly believing that their loss of hope was somehow the fault of the EU and immigrants. This was also wrapped around repetitive jingoistic messages about the pre-EU days of war and British Empire delusion. These messages have been hammered home by the Tories and right-wing media outlets for over 30 years. And sadly, it has worked. Millions of people think that because of foreign incomers or foreign interference, they and their country have lost control. They have been told to take back control. There has been a huge diffusion from the usual suspects in politics and media to demonise the likes of the EU and immigrants to deflect from the failures of government. It is psychological projection. It is a gigantic con-trick.

The Romanians didn’t do this to you. Jean-Claude Juncker didn’t go this to you. Muslims didn’t do this to you. But I bloody well know who did do this to you. Repeatedly. You know, the ones who wear blue rosettes on election day; who wear bespoke pinstripe suits in parliament; who have exceedingly good manners and faux-politeness and who many people in Britain have a peculiar trait of forelock tugging towards. It is all a giant act of Tory manipulation. See through their veneer and the optics aren’t particularly pleasant. They are the ones that shafted this country. Not a Bulgarian immigrant looking for a better life.

Behind Brexit lies this harsh fact: 17.4 million people with good intentions were hoodwinked by a bunch of political chancers who conned a nation to enable them to further their career or feather their own nests (or the pound shorting nests of whatever hedge fund manager chum they happen to have an association with).

Brexit is part of a 30 year planned heist designed for us to vote against our best interests. And tragically, millions of people still won’t realise or admit this and continue to blame the wrong things. If you voted for Brexit, you may well have had good reason; employment, working conditions, housing, education – but I doubt you voted for what is actually happening now. The result is that Britain’s political system is being dismantled to the advantage of the very rich and powerful and to the detriment of the vast majority of UK citizens. This pattern has been continuing for over 30 years, and still millions of voters look in the wrong direction of blame.

As so it is. The great con that wrecked Britain has three parts to the story: Part 1. Thatcherism Part 2. Austerity

Political outcomes that have conned a nation have led to disaster capitalism and we are about to experience what that is like at the very sharp end of its next and final phase: Part 3: Brexit



..I think this bit is quite true...

For four decades, millions of people within communities right across the country have seen a decline in their social fabric. The key community frameworks of a happy and stable society have been dismantled, defunded or sold off. It has made many people unhappy, disenfranchised and understandably, wanting something or someone to blame

..it’s sad and ironic that the things that have been looked at as the causes of the discontent and disenfranchisement are the very things that will become more and more a reality through our Brexit years...as we watch our NHS dissolve and become privatised...

[Tom4784]

It's honestly sad how much Brexiters who will be affected negatively by the kind of Brexit Boris wants are spreading their cheeks for him regardless. Brexit as a whole is just an exercise in giving the elite a tax break. Brexiters are just little ants doing their best on behalf of their overlords who placate them with bull**** about immigrants and slogans on buses.

[Twosugars]

I would trust the 48% who voted remain obviously, however I agree we need to leave from the referendum vote.
In addition to trusting the 48% though, I would also trust the I think likely, the large proportion of leave voters too, who likely never expected, wanted or even voted for a ' no deal' exit.

Tbh I think we will leave. Can't see eu wanting us back after what has transpired about this country in the last three years.
UK needs to experience being outside and standing on it's own two feet for those deluded english imperialists to get a dose of reality.
Let's wait for the old xenophobes to die out and the new generation can rejoin eu in their own time.

[Ammi]

These are the folks that working class Britons are putting their faith in.

To be fair to Priti, I can't find her with a direct quote saying "leaving the eu would be an opportunity to cut EU social and employment protections"

I have found her making the same exact points though, so I'm guessing they've rounded a few things up to fit it on to a pic like this.

...I don’t know which quotes she personally made...but didn’t five or six MP’s write a report or paper, which included those quotes, along with others that painted British workers as really not great at all...in their eyes...

[Niamh.]

Priti is very pretty so she's already 1-0 up on Abbott for a start, that's before we even get to the rest of the stuff.

what really matter in politics eh? :umm2:

[Twosugars]

It's honestly sad how much Brexiters who will be affected negatively by the kind of Brexit Boris wants are spreading their cheeks for him regardless. Brexit as a whole is just an exercise in giving the elite a tax break. Brexiters are just little ants doing their best on behalf of their overlords who placate them with bull**** about immigrants and slogans on buses.

:laugh: :thumbs:

[Ammi]

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/02/johnson-s-brexit-plan-no-viability-no-decency-no-hope

It was only moments into his speech that Boris Johnson started lying. "We will under no circumstances," he said, "have checks at or near the border in Northern Ireland." It was false. Overnight, the details of his Brexit proposals to Brussels had leaked. They showed that there clearly would be checks. The British commitment to preventing any customs infrastructure in Ireland would be broken.

Once upon a time, Johnson could make these claims because he was engaged in the magical thinking of 'frictionless trade' and 'alternative arrangements'. There's no excuse for that now.

The Johnson offer to the EU will be published this afternoon, but last night's leak by the Telegraph's Peter Foster was largely corroborated by the details the prime minister offered in his speech. It works by separating out two elements of a future trading relationship: customs and regulations.

Customs involves the assessment of tariffs on goods. Regulations involve checks on whether the goods comply with the rules of the country they're being sent to. In the EU, none of this matters - you have the same tariff regime and the same rules. Outside the EU, it all needs to be checked.

Johnson's plan sets up two timetables - one for customs and one for regulations.

The customs timetable kicks in first. His deal, like Theresa May's, would have a short transition until 2021. But after that, Northern Ireland and the rest of Britain would leave the customs union with no backstop. Johnson is taking no prisoners here. He is refusing any concessions. The lock keeping Northern Ireland attached to the Republic is gone. That means checks.

How would Johnson try to avoid them? He plans to have a free trade agreement (FTA) with the EU. But that's extremely unlikely to be achieved by 2021. Free trade agreements between major partners take a long time. The one between the EU and Canada took seven years.

But even if he did manage it, there would still be checks. FTAs can hammer down tariffs between countries. But even when that's done, goods have to go through a laborious process of checks, called country of origin requirements, to ensure they're really from the state they're being sent from. This is so that other countries can't surreptitiously sneak their way in with no tariffs as part of a trade deal they didn't negotiate.

The government rubbished a previous leak this week which said there'd be customs posts on either side of the border to do these sorts of checks. But actually it seems inevitable that there will be. Their promises to the contrary are meaningless. They rely on the idea that new technology will magically be invented in the next two years to make them unnecessary. This will not happen. It is one of the great myths of the Brexit argument.

This plan is a complete rejection of the British government's commitment in the December 2017 joint report to avoid a hard border, or any physical infrastructure, or checks or controls. It goes against the promises made to the people of the island on both sides - the Republic, which had no say in all this, and Northern Ireland, which voted against it. There is no consent from these communities for these proposals. They have made clear they are against what they propose. Johnson wants to impose it on them regardless. It is a threat to the peace process. It is a betrayal of the promise of continued north-south cooperation. It is a complete and total abdication of moral responsibility.

The approach to regulations seemingly involves more concessions. Northern Ireland would remain aligned with the EU on agricultural and industrial goods regulations. This is dynamic, meaning that as the EU updated its rules, they would update theirs.

On the face of it, this seems significant. It would involve checks on the Irish sea between Britain and Northern Ireland, which is the kind of thing the DUP - whose votes Johnson would need to get a deal through - vociferously objects to.

But there's a catch. The alignment only lasts until 2025. At that point Northern Ireland gets a say on what happens. Does it want to stay aligned to the EU rules or join the rest of the UK? In practice, this gives the DUP a veto, which they will invariable use. The language is democratic, but in reality it simply serves to stagger the regulatory departure.

It's quite a remarkably tone-deaf package. Basically the UK is taking a bullying position to the EU without having anything to bully them with.

Think about their incentives. This is the kind of thing which essential to successful negotiation but which the Johnson administration is seemingly incapable of.

If Brussels accepted the package, Ireland would be thrown under the bus. It would be a complete betrayal, something they have made clear they would never do.

That's not just a moral point. It is a strategic one. If they go against Ireland, no other member state would trust them again. The offer the EU makes to countries - that they become stronger by working together - would be shown to be false.

So why do it? Johnson is presumably gambling on the fact that if they reject it they'd face no-deal, which would involve the border emerging immediately, without the lead-in to 2021 or 2025.

But this assessment is very weak, because the moral reality of that point is inverted. If the UK decides to leave without a deal, then the consequences are its responsibility. But if the EU signed up to this deal, then it shares that responsibility. And on the areas it cares about - checks on the border, north-south cooperation - those consequences would be equivalent to no-deal.

Such a move would also destroy the EU's credibility in negotiations around the world. It would be seen to buckle on all its key demands in the face of intransigence and threats. Why wouldn't other negotiating partners try the same trick?

But even aside from all that, the threat is empty because no-deal is not actually the consequence of the EU rejection of the deal. The Benn Act ensures that if there is no deal he must ask for an extension. He insists this is not true and that No.10 has found some kind of loophole in the legislation. Given his record, that is likely to be either false or a gross overstatement of some pitifully weak tactic. But even if it were true, parliament could work around it or see Johnson forced to retreat via the courts.

So the EU's incentives are not his deal or no-deal. They are his deal or extension. And extension opens up the possibility of a less insane negotiating team, or even another referendum with a result to Remain, making the whole border problem go away.

It's hard to come up with anything positive to say about this. It shows no understanding of the EU's red lines, no basic moral responsibility towards the problem in Ireland which the Brexit vote created, no consistency with the previous commitments of the British government, no viability, no practicality, no realism, and no concessions at all to the half of the population who voted Remain. It is almost impressive that after all this time they have come up with a proposal that has nothing whatsoever to recommend it.

..:sad:...

[Alf]

Tbh I think we will leave. Can't see eu wanting us back after what has transpired about this country in the last three years.
UK needs to experience being outside and standing on it's own two feet for those deluded english imperialists to get a dose of reality.
Let's wait for the old xenophobes to die out and the new generation can rejoin eu in their own time."Those deluded English imperialists"

And in the next sentence you call them, xenophobes?

Not to mention your hope of those English people dying.

But you're the virtuous one, right?

[The Slim Reaper]

...I don’t know which quotes she personally made...but didn’t five or six MP’s write a report or paper, which included those quotes, along with others that painted British workers as really not great at all...in their eyes...

Yep. That's why the take back control narrative is so bogus. The people who've benefited from EU investments in deprived towns and cities are rejecting that money, in order to hand over control to politicians like Priti, who have nothing but disdain for them.

It really is turkeys not only voting for Christmas, but shaving their necks, and helping the farmer sharpen his blade at the same time.

[Twosugars]

"Those deluded English imperialists"

And in the next sentence you call them xenophobes.

Not to mention your hope of those English people dying.

But you're the virtuous one, right?

Never claimed to be virtuous.
But try to be a realist.

Btw there's nothing hopeful about old xenophobes dying. It's a biological inevitability.

[Twosugars]

This country cannot be a member of eu for as long as the half/half split exist.
So show us all the good times you promised and we will see.
If and when it proves to be ****, as many of remainers believe, a new generation can make a better informed decision about rejoining

[Alf]

Never claimed to be virtuous.
But try to be a realist.

Btw there's nothing hopeful about old xenophobes dying. It's a biological inevitability.Absolutely disgraceful.

[Twosugars]

Absolutely disgraceful.

No, that would be your comment about Dianne.

[The Slim Reaper]

1179318348288610304

1179321611389952001

[Ammi]

Yep. That's why the take back control narrative is so bogus. The people who've benefited from EU investments in deprived towns and cities are rejecting that money, in order to hand over control to politicians like Priti, who have nothing but disdain for them.

It really is turkeys not only voting for Christmas, but shaving their necks, and helping the farmer sharpen his blade at the same time.

...I think it was also said we should be more like Asia...which is a bit ambitious because we don’t even want to be part of Europe and that would have saved on the long haul flight...

...Sadly I feel that last paragraph is quite an apt description...it’s just so much irony that the very things that have been cling onto and hoped to preserve, will be some of the first losses...

[Tom4784]

Absolutely disgraceful.

Sadly that's how life works, Alf. You are born, you live and then you die. I know it's hard to accept and you're probably feeling some existential dread right now but that's the way of life I'm afraid.

[Twosugars]

Memento mori, as they used to say

[arista]

1179418269717020672

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/14F30/production/_109080858_guardian.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/41A8/production/_109080861_thetimes.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/13248/production/_109080487_telegraph.jpg

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF5Djv9W4AAgGiS?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

The PM is Live in Parliament
later this afternoon.


Meanwhile Live now in Parliament
Bercow has lost his Voice

[Kizzy]

"Those deluded English imperialists"

And in the next sentence you call them, xenophobes?

Not to mention your hope of those English people dying.

But you're the virtuous one, right?

Stop twisting his words, people die that's a fact. What's this ridiculous obsession with virtue? ... :/

[Alf]

Stop twisting his words, people die that's a fact. What's this ridiculous obsession with virtue? ... :/We all know people die, but some of us aren't hoping for it to happen to people to further our Marxist takeover.

[Cherie]

Never claimed to be virtuous.
But try to be a realist.

Btw there's nothing hopeful about old xenophobes dying. It's a biological inevitability.

the problem with that is that there are many young people who voted for Brexit? so you will be waiting along time for them to die?

I think its a pretty tasteless comment, most homophobic assaults are carried out by young people as well, so not so sure why 'old' people are continually requested to 'die'

[arista]

The PM is Live in Parliament
shotrly

[Cherie]

Stop twisting his words, people die that's a fact. What's this ridiculous obsession with virtue? ... :/

yes people die, babies, toddlers, teens, young people, middle aged people, old people but its only continually okay to wish death on 'old' people who apparently are also 'xenophobes', hopefully the Grim Reaper will be able to identify these post haste and not take the other ones, not even sure what qualifies as old these days either

[arista]

The PM is Live Now

[Alf]

The PM is Live NowDon't touch him then, you'll get an electric shock.

[arista]

Corbyn is Moaning Away Live Now



Bercow has no Voice
he should go home.
Let the number 2 , take over

[Kizzy]

yes people die, babies, toddlers, teens, young people, middle aged people, old people but its only continually okay to wish death on 'old' people who apparently are also 'xenophobes', hopefully the Grim Reaper will be able to identify these post haste and not take the other ones, not even sure what qualifies as old these days either

You are screwing this waaay out of proportion cherie... nobody is wishing death on anyone.
I can't speak for others but personally it is my experience that old more conservative voters have a propensity to xenophobia too...That is my opinion, if you don't agree fine.
It's my observation.

[joeysteele]

Unless this deal is acceptable to the Republic of Ireland.
Then only is it warranting support.

The Independent Sylvia Hermon MP from N Ireland seems to me, to be talking the most sense.

[Kazanne]

The PM is Live in Parliament
later this afternoon.


Meanwhile Live now in Parliament
Bercow has lost his Voice

There IS a God :laugh::wavey:

[Kazanne]

Absolutely disgraceful.

People seem to forget a LOT of young people want to leave aswell, :wavey:

[Toy Soldier]

People seem to forget a LOT of young people want to leave aswell, :wavey:

Yes, the stupid ones who have no idea what they're asking for.

[arista]

Yes, the stupid ones who have no idea what they're asking for.


Not stupid
but could be influenced by their family

[The Slim Reaper]

73% of 18-24yr olds voted remain
62% of 25-34yr olds voted remain

Brexit doesn't even have any kind of majority any more.

[Alf]

73% of 18-24yr olds voted remain
62% of 25-34yr olds voted remainWhere was that poll done, The Guardian?

[The Slim Reaper]

Where was that poll done, The Guardian?

Not a poll, voting statistics.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-brexit-and-why-a-refresher/

[Niamh.]

1179717090917392384

[Alf]

Not a poll, voting statistics.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-brexit-and-why-a-refresher/They're making it up. There's no way they could know that.

[The Slim Reaper]

The latest poll shows that 82% of under 25's are now remainers. Obviously it's a poll, but this will of the people nonsense is no longer true, or accurate.

I'm sure leavers wouldn't want to go against the "will of the people" in order to force through something that a majority of the country no longer wants, because of something that happened nearly 4 years ago?

[Kazanne]

Yes, the stupid ones who have no idea what they're asking for.

How nice ,calling people stupid just because they don't share your views, some youndg people are very astute and know exactly what they voted for, your problem if you don't like that.

[Alf]

You can make polls work however you want, you just have to ask the right people.

However, real evidence was in the referendum where we voted to leave.

[The Slim Reaper]

You can make polls work however you want, you just have to ask the right people.

However, real evidence was in the referendum where we voted to leave.

I agree; you have to poll 18-25yr olds to find out what 18-25yr olds think.

[Alf]

I agree; you have to poll 18-25yr olds to find out what 18-25yr olds think.You'd have to ask every 18-25 year old, with proof that you asked every 18-25 year old and proof of all their answers.

Did this happen? How many of them refused to answer? how many of them lied? How many of them were out on the day this poll came knocking on their door?

[joeysteele]

How nice ,calling people stupid just because they don't share your views, some youndg people are very astute and know exactly what they voted for, your problem if you don't like that.

By the same token as you are saying some young people are astute, re the ones that suit your line of leaving regardless of consequences to all as long as you're okay.
As you said on another thread, you'd be okay in a no deal scenario.

Would those young you call astute voting leave, are you sure though they wanted a no deal brexit.

Then since they are the astute young.
You are indicating the massive majority of young who voted remain as not astute.
As they don't fit into your harder, extreme agenda of a no deal brexit.

Not one party in the 2017, had in their manifestos a support for a no deal brexit.


Sounds a bit double standards there to me.

[The Slim Reaper]

1179675058421272577

[The Slim Reaper]

You'd have to ask every 18-25 year old, with proof that you asked every 18-25 year old and proof of all their answers.

Did this happen? How many of them refused to answer? how many of them lied? How many of them were out on the day this poll came knocking on their door?

I do love your situational desire to scrutinise issues. You follow me down this path every time, and I love illuminating it :joker:

[Alf]

I do love your situational desire to scrutinise issues. You follow me down this path every time, and I love illuminating it :joker:I aim to please. So I'm glad you're enjoying yourself.

[Withano]

Lets be real. If there was another referendum, remain would win at least 60:40. Probs way more.

People change their mind when faced with 4 years of migraines... and old people die a lot.

[Denver]

Lets be real. If there was another referendum, remain would win at least 60:40. Probs way more.

People change their mind when faced with 4 years of migraines... and old people die a lot.

Actually people just want out and to be done with it, but going back in the original vote would destroy the country

[The Slim Reaper]

Actually people just want out and to be done with it, but going back in the original vote would destroy the country

If you think us leaving means we'll be done with it, then you're seriously misguided. That would be just the beginning as then we'd have to start negotiating deals from a position of extreme and self inflicted weakness.

[Kazanne]

By the same token as you are saying some young people are astute, re the ones that suit your line of leaving regardless of consequences to all as long as you're okay.
As you said on another thread, you'd be okay in a no deal scenario.

Would those young you call astute voting leave, are you sure though they wanted a no deal brexit.

Then since they are the astute young.
You are indicating the massive majority of young who voted remain as not astute.
As they don't fit into your harder, extreme agenda of a no deal brexit.

Not one party in the 2017, had in their manifestos a support for a no deal brexit.


Sounds a bit double standards there to me.

All I said was some youngsters are astute NOT stupid as TS implied the ones that voted to leave are stupid, not everyone is stupid and doesn't understand what they are voting for, nothing more nothing less ,I wasn't even talking about those who voted to remain, they had their reasons as the ones who want to leave do,simple as that Joey

[Twosugars]

Get brexit done is a typical con slogan

There are several years ahead of negotiations over trade


No matter, younger voters will reverse this by rejoining in future

[joeysteele]

All I said was some youngsters are astute NOT stupid as TS implied the ones that voted to leave are stupid, not everyone is stupid and doesn't understand what they are voting for, nothing more nothing less ,I wasn't even talking about those who voted to remain, they had their reasons as the ones who want to leave do,simple as that Joey


Not how I read it.
You stated some young people are astute ..... Then added indicating they were the ones who didn't agree with the poster.

Thereby, what does that make those who voted remain.
You can't think them astute too, from your own words.
So I stand by the point I raised.

I'd also dare bet, most of those young voting leave.
In no way, were voting happy to leave with no deal as you advocate, just to get it done.

[Nicky91]

Get brexit done is a typical con slogan

There are several years ahead of negotiations over trade


No matter, younger voters will reverse this by rejoining in future

EU says no :hehe:

once out, Always out