Boris has asked the Queen to suspend Parliment, The Queen has now approved

[Kazanne]

But surely schools in this country must explain that pretty early:conf:
And then every day life, the media :conf:
I know in this country teaching history becomes optional far too early but still :facepalm:
We are not talking of some distant shores ffs

FYI I missed a lot of school as I had bad health problems,but carry on being better educated and clever, we cant all be like that unfortunately,I have never been good at geography, history etc,I was more on the arty side,but as I said I wont comment on this subject anymore , I try to learn as I go along ,but , seems that its to be looked down on too.FFS

[Niamh.]

Tbf to Kazanne, I recall Smithy doing much the same thing, there does seem to be a genuine lack of understanding about the Irish situation, I have had people ask me before the is it safe to travel to the Republic because of the bombs :skull: I don't believe Irish history makes it onto the curriculum here, but it shouldReally? It's just kind of disappointing more than anything else, considering we're so close and it's both of our history and Geography and how do people even understand the whole border issue at all if they don't even know that Ireland is a separate country?

[Cherie]

Really? It's just kind of disappointing more than anything else, considering we're so close and it's both of our history and Geography and how do people even understand the whole border issue at all if they don't even know that Ireland is a separate country?

I don't remember either of my kids learning about Irish history but then neither took history for GCSE so maybe they study if it they take history as an option, not sure tbh

[Cherie]

Really? It's just kind of disappointing more than anything else, considering we're so close and it's both of our history and Geography and how do people even understand the whole border issue at all if they don't even know that Ireland is a separate country?

Pre referendum the Irish border was never mentioned at all, this is why I think there should be a second referendum, people are much more aware of a lot of the sticking points now, rather than the whitewash of its going to be easy to leave

[Twosugars]

Tbf to Kazanne, I recall Smithy doing much the same thing, there does seem to be a genuine lack of understanding about the Irish situation, I have had people ask me before the is it safe to travel to the Republic because of the bombs :skull: I don't believe Irish history makes it onto the curriculum here, but it should

Theres no excuse imo if you show any interest in politics and have opinions on it not to know the basics.
These things are mentioned on the news a fair bit.

And theres no need to know Irish history to know the basic makeup of your own country

It's almost like thinking France is part of uk bc we own some channel islands

[Withano]

Leave winning and still having a following makes more sense to me now

[Twosugars]

Pre referendum the Irish border was never mentioned at all, this is why I think there should be a second referendum, people are much more aware of a lot of the sticking points now, rather than the whitewash of its going to be easy to leave

Not true. What about the peace process, that's been on the news since the 90s

[Twosugars]

FYI I missed a lot of school as I had bad health problems,but carry on being better educated and clever, we cant all be like that unfortunately,I have never been good at geography, history etc,I was more on the arty side,but as I said I wont comment on this subject anymore , I try to learn as I go along ,but , seems that its to be looked down on too.FFS

It's not about looking down, it's the shock of it.
Just dont know how to deal with it tbh.
And you never realized from the news?

[Kazanne]

It's not about looking down, it's the shock of it.
Just dont know how to deal with it tbh.
And you never realized from the news?

I have a family and a job,i am not stuck in the news every 5 mins, and I sometimes have programs on but cant always pay that much attention,and sometimes I miss stuff as I am patially deaf,and why the **** am I explaining anything to you anyway, you know nothing about my background or education,if I have an interest in whats going on then why shouldn't I have an opinion and learn by some of them , but you are just nasty and I'm done even explaining anything to you.

[Cherie]

Not true. What about the peace process, that's been on the news since the 90s



I am talking about the Leave and Remain referendum campaigns, did either mention the border in their arguments for and against? If you can find me a link that would be great, there was a guy on a phone in recently who mentioned this as well so its just not me that didn't hear anything about it, I cant claim to have listened to every argument but I listen to a fair deal so if it was mentioned it wasn't particularly often

[bots]

Honestly, i don't think the irish border issues are a big thing to many on the UK mainland. It becomes an issue if some group like the ira start bombing us, but other than that it's jut not important to many. Why would it be unless it directly affected them. That was the whole reason the ira started bombing places like london in the first place.

[lime]

Pre referendum the Irish border was never mentioned at all, this is why I think there should be a second referendum, people are much more aware of a lot of the sticking points now, rather than the whitewash of its going to be easy to leave

But surely they who voted either to remain...or leave knew about the irish Border and Ireland as a whole.

After reading Kazanne post's:shocked::shocked:
I hate the use of the word "troubles"

that's something I am in when i can't find my phone or car keys..Not a massacre

[lime]

Honestly, i don't think the irish border issues are a big thing to many on the UK mainland. It becomes an issue if some group like the ira start bombing us, but other than that it's jut not important to many. Why would it be unless it directly affected them. That was the whole reason the ira started bombing places like london in the first place.
Brexit in a nutshell :facepalm:

[Cherie]

But surely they who voted either to remain...or leave knew about the irish Border and Ireland as a whole.

After reading Kazanne post's:shocked::shocked:
I hate the use of the word "troubles"

that's something I am in when i can't find my phone or car keys..Not a massacre

It was never brought up by either campaign, the UK is made up of many nationalities who can vote, its not just British people who have the right to vote, I have Pakistani and Indian friends who voted who would have no idea of the past problems in NI, there has been peace for 20 years so why would they, some of them would have been in their early teens when the Good Friday Agreement was passed, none of the politicians mentioned in in either the leave or remain campaign, although I am waiting for Two Sugars to clarify this

I remember on the day before the ref an Indian friend saying all her family were voting to go out, because of the possible trade deal with India and visa free movement, everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they did, they are considering themselves and their families first and foremost

[lime]

It was never brought up by either campaign, the UK is made up of many nationalities who can vote, its not just British people who have the right to vote, I have Pakistani and Indian friends who voted who would have no idea of the past problems in NI, there has been peace for 20 years so why would they, some of them would have been in their early teens when the Good Friday Agreement was passed, none of the politicians mentioned in in either the leave or remain campaign, although I am waiting for Two Sugars to clarify this

I think that's Ireland's biggest mistake ..i think in Ireland we thought that the GFA was welcomed in UK as much as Ireland .

Now I think the Irish are seeing it is irrelavent to the British.

Hard lesson to learn.. but important

[Twosugars]

Cherie I'm not talking about the referendum and whether it was mentioned or not..

I'm talking about being aware what your country consist of.
I cant imagine not knowing who your neighbouring countries are.

I dont think anybody in the referendum campaign was explaining Britain doesnt own Ireland bc doubt anybody thought it needed explaining.

[Twosugars]

I have a family and a job,i am not stuck in the news every 5 mins, and I sometimes have programs on but cant always pay that much attention,and sometimes I miss stuff as I am patially deaf,and why the **** am I explaining anything to you anyway, you know nothing about my background or education,if I have an interest in whats going on then why shouldn't I have an opinion and learn by some of them , but you are just nasty and I'm done even explaining anything to you.

Whatever.

Carry on thinking I'm nasty.
I will consider it worth it as long as you now know that Britain owns only a small part of the island of Ireland, Northern Ireland. The rest of it is an independent republic of Ireland, a very proud and successful country.
They used to be under English occupation but gained independence in 1921.
For obvious historical reasons Ireland is very protective of and sensitive about its independence. It's best every Briton remembers that.

[user104658]

But surely schools in this country must explain that pretty early:conf:

Heh... no. You get like Vikings and Romans, and other distant European history, then some kings / queens etc MAYBE up to the Victorian era but tbh more often stopping around Elizabeth 1 / Mary Queen of Scots / James.

Maybe a bit of WWII *if* you take history as a selection at high school - other than that, I don't think you even get the modern wars.

Definitely no modern political history unless you specifically take politics. Which in my experience, most schools don't even offer.

I don't think the political situation in Ireland was mentioned at all when I was at school, honestly. Here in Scotland I think people become a bit more socially aware of it because there's still quite heavy sectarianism that has significant links with N.I. so anyone vaguely "socially aware" learns about it that way.

[Twosugars]

Yeah my partner told me the same, TS

I dont get it. How can you pick and choose your history? It is a continuous thing

[Twosugars]

But geography and general knowledge? If you look at a map you can see ireland is there, an independent country

[user104658]

I have a family and a job,i am not stuck in the news every 5 mins, and I sometimes have programs on but cant always pay that much attention,and sometimes I miss stuff as I am patially deaf,and why the **** am I explaining anything to you anyway, you know nothing about my background or education,if I have an interest in whats going on then why shouldn't I have an opinion and learn by some of them , but you are just nasty and I'm done even explaining anything to you.

The issue is though, you've had some very strong views on the Brexit situation... so it's quite jarring to hear someone who has expressed strong views say something that indicates they have a complete misunderstanding of one of the most fundamental aspects of the Brexit debate. Like I said... it's not a judgment... there's no moral imperative to be actively engaged in politics... but I just have to reiterate that if you didn't even know that Ireland is not part of Britain, you literally can't have a valid opinion on the current Brexit situation. It *is* the current situation.

[user104658]

Yeah my partner told me the same, TS

I dont get it. How can you pick and choose your history? It is a continuous thing

They just don't spend much time on it at all is the honest answer, unless you take it as an optional subject in your teens. Most time is taken up with English and Maths, then "oldschool" sciences (Physics/Chem/Bio) then these days, tech subjects. And physical education. Then probably practical subjects like woodworking, art, Home Ec... THEN you have things like history, geography and politics tacked on like an afterthought.

When people do have a more than absolutely basic understanding of these topics in the UK, it's generally because of self-driven interest.

[Nicky91]

Whatever.

Carry on thinking I'm nasty.
I will consider it worth it as long as you now know that Britain owns only a small part of the island of Ireland, Northern Ireland. The rest of it is an independent republic of Ireland, a very proud and successful country.
They used to be under English occupation but gained independence in 1921.
For obvious historical reasons Ireland is very protective of and sensitive about its independence. It's best every Briton remembers that.

why not an idea to break up britain, but i guess england would hate that idea LOL

in various sports events they are already competing as independent countries anyway, like rugby, football, cricket

in junior eurovision contest (kids eurovision) Wales make their own language shine, and even scotland is interested to also join that next year with of course the scottish language


just a simple thought of course, a britain break up

[Twosugars]

They just don't spend much time on it at all is the honest answer, unless you take it as an optional subject in your teens. Most time is taken up with English and Maths, then "oldschool" sciences (Physics/Chem/Bio) then these days, tech subjects. And physical education. Then probably practical subjects like woodworking, art, Home Ec... THEN you have things like history, geography and politics tacked on like an afterthought.

When people do have a more than absolutely basic understanding of these topics in the UK, it's generally because of self-driven interest.

Idg this arrangement.
And then governments moan people have not enough of a sense of identity.

[Cherie]

Cherie I'm not talking about the referendum and whether it was mentioned or not..

I'm talking about being aware what your country consist of.
I cant imagine not knowing who your neighbouring countries are.

I dont think anybody in the referendum campaign was explaining Britain doesnt own Ireland bc doubt anybody thought it needed explaining.

and I am talking about the border, can you confirm that you heard it mentioned as part of any argument in the remain campaign? it was never mentioned

[Niamh.]

and I am talking about the border, can you confirm that you heard it mentioned as part of any argument in the remain campaign? it was never mentionedSuch a big over sight

[Cherie]

I think that's Ireland's biggest mistake ..i think in Ireland we thought that the GFA was welcomed in UK as much as Ireland .

Now I think the Irish are seeing it is irrelavent to the British.

Hard lesson to learn.. but important

of course the GFA was welcomed in the UK, especially as it put an end to a bombing campaign, but its was two decades ago, there is a whole generation who know nothing about it, and even more who have forgotten as it didn't affect them directly

[Cherie]

Such a big over sight

I never heard it mentioned once, it only came up once the vote was to go out

[Niamh.]

I don't remember either of my kids learning about Irish history but then neither took history for GCSE so maybe they study if it they take history as an option, not sure tbhStill though it's pretty basic Geography. The kids here do both history and Geography up until after Junior cert, they become optional for leaving cert

[Tom4784]

We were taught Geography up until Year 9 when it became optional. We learned about what countries formed the UK quite early on. It's a basic fact, really.

[Kizzy]

You what the way the English talk it's as though we own the rest of Britain and the people who live there should be thouroughly jolly glad we allow them to!

[Twosugars]

and I am talking about the border, can you confirm that you heard it mentioned as part of any argument in the remain campaign? it was never mentioned

So you confirm it bc that is not my point but yours.

My point is everybody should know basic geography, referendum or not.

If they don't, they can't really discuss the Irish backstop, as TS said.
The very concept of the backstop exists only bc of the geopolitical situation.

[Cherie]

Pre referendum the Irish border was never mentioned at all, this is why I think there should be a second referendum, people are much more aware of a lot of the sticking points now, rather than the whitewash of its going to be easy to leave

Not true. What about the peace process, that's been on the news since the 90s

I am talking about the Leave and Remain referendum campaigns, did either mention the border in their arguments for and against? If you can find me a link that would be great, there was a guy on a phone in recently who mentioned this as well so its just not me that didn't hear anything about it, I cant claim to have listened to every argument but I listen to a fair deal so if it was mentioned it wasn't particularly often

Cherie I'm not talking about the referendum and whether it was mentioned or not..

I'm talking about being aware what your country consist of.
I cant imagine not knowing who your neighbouring countries are.

I dont think anybody in the referendum campaign was explaining Britain doesnt own Ireland bc doubt anybody thought it needed explaining.

So you confirm it bc that is not my point but yours.

My point is everybody should know basic geography, referendum or not.

If they don't, they can't really discuss the Irish backstop, as TS said.
The very concept of the backstop exists only bc of the geopolitical situation.

you have moved the goalposts and not for the first time in these threads

can you confirm that you heard any mention of the border during pre referendum campaigns, you claimed what I said was untrue and rambled on about the GFA, its not my fault you completely misunderstood my original point, I am not discussing geography that is other people in the thread so take that up with them maybe?

[Twosugars]

you have moved the goalposts and not for the first time in these threads

can you confirm that you heard any mention of the border during pre referendum campaigns, you claimed what I said was untrue and rambled on about the GFA, its not my fault you completely misunderstood my original point, I am not discussing geography that is other people in the thread so take that up with them maybe?

Do your own confirming as you questioned it.

I expect it was not mentioned that there is a border bc everybody should know there is one

My point is that schools and news should teach you about your own country borders

Not my fault Kazanne wasnt listening.

Btw since when mentioning gla once equates to rambling about it?

[Twosugars]

In other news the referendum campaign didnt mention leprechauns aren't real so why dont we get them to do border checks

:joker:

[Cherie]

In other news the referendum campaign didnt mention leprechauns aren't real so why dont we get them to do border checks

:joker:

:umm2:

[Cherie]

Do your own confirming as you questioned it.

I expect it was not mentioned that there is a border bc everybody should know there is one

My point is that schools and news should teach you about your own country borders

Not my fault Kazanne wasnt listening.

Btw since when mentioning gla once equates to rambling about it?

I wouldn't be insinuating other people are stupid if I were you, you don't appear to be able to follow a thread at all?

I am asking a simple question off you, its not a trick question, I just wondered if I missed where it was mentioned, you don't seem keen to answer I have no idea why that would be :shrug:

[Cherie]

and seeing as you seem to be labouring some point about education, many kids are taught how to read and write from age 4 but still come out not able to do either, so maybe we could apply the same to other subjects, just a thought

[MTVN]

I heard it discussed leading up to the referendum but then I'm a massive nerd who never missed a Daily Politics episode :ninja2:

Obviously the Leave side didn't want to talk about it but some on the Remain side expressed their concerns

[AnnieK]

I honestly don't remember the border being mentioned till we heard about the details of the first Withdrawal Agreement :shrug:

[Twosugars]

I wouldn't be insinuating other people are stupid if I were you, you don't appear to be able to follow a thread at all?

I am asking a simple question off you, its not a trick question, I just wondered if I missed where it was mentioned, you don't seem keen to answer I have no idea why that would be :shrug:

I dont remember it mentioned so assume it wasn't. And?

And what bearing does that have on not knowing Ireland is one of the closest foreign countries to the UK?
Do you consider that some sort of excuse? :laugh:

[Cherie]

I dont remember it mentioned so assume it wasn't. And?

And what bearing does that have on not knowing Ireland is one of the closest foreign countries to the UK?
Do you consider that some sort of excuse? :laugh:

It has no bearing, I was making a completely different point, please join the conversation with the members discussing the point you are labouring if you wish to keep banging on about it

[Cherie]

I heard it discussed leading up to the referendum but then I'm a massive nerd who never missed a Daily Politics episode :ninja2:

Obviously the Leave side didn't want to talk about it but some on the Remain side expressed their concerns

Nerd :laugh:

I honestly don't remember the border being mentioned till we heard about the details of the first Withdrawal Agreement :shrug:

I know right, remain should have made a bigger issue of it, considering it is the major sticking point now

[Kazanne]

Tbf to Kazanne, I recall Smithy doing much the same thing, there does seem to be a genuine lack of understanding about the Irish situation, I have had people ask me before the is it safe to travel to the Republic because of the bombs :skull: I don't believe Irish history makes it onto the curriculum here, but it should

Did he get the same response I did Cherie ? :laugh: of course he didn't ,I wonder why:wavey:

[arista]

I heard it discussed leading up to the referendum but then I'm a massive nerd who never missed a Daily Politics episode :ninja2:

Obviously the Leave side didn't want to talk about it but some on the Remain side expressed their concerns


You Miss so much data well before Mid Day.
Live 9AM - 11AM weekdays
SkyNewsHD All Out Politics

I record Everything

[Twosugars]

Nerd :laugh:



I know right, remain should have made a bigger issue of it, considering it is the major sticking point now

Yes bc that's remain fault, screwing things up with gfa :laugh:

You couldn't make it up

[bots]

I heard it discussed leading up to the referendum but then I'm a massive nerd who never missed a Daily Politics episode :ninja2:

Obviously the Leave side didn't want to talk about it but some on the Remain side expressed their concerns

people zone out when they hear things they are not interested in. People in England and Scotland don't care about the irish border. They care about immigration, sovereignty and the NHS.

I listened to everything during the run up to the ref, i don't want to remember most of it now :laugh:

[Vicky.]

One of the leaflets we got round here did mention Ireland. Unfortunately though, in the vain of 'technically a problem but not really a problem as the Eu will be falling over themselves to make a deal with us as we are so important, so no worries'. Plus it only seemed to have been acknowledged at all, as the leaflet was discssing 'project fear' and all the things remainers were telling people that were untrue and never going to happen in a million years :rolleyes: (I never saw the one this one was refuting..but it must have existed fr that reply..IDK)

Still dont understand how anyone convinced themselves we would be in a position of strength, definitely strong enough to demand all the things we were apparently getting, with all the bad bits gone. Eu will be licking our boots tbh.

Well that went well.

As for the history convo, we did nothing about that in history that I remember, we only did the romans and henry 8th...did do ROI/NI in geography though. One of the first things I remember from it actually.

[lime]

Did he get the same response I did Cherie ? :laugh: of course he didn't ,I wonder why:wavey:

Please don't make yourself a victim.Laugh all you want.

[Kazanne]

Please don't make yourself a victim.Laugh all you want.

Im not a victim, just wished people would understand ,we are not all brainboxes so clued up on certain things, and lime no one stops me from laughing, ive got in to trouble about it many a time.

[Twosugars]

Talking of peoples awareness of basic geography and history is very much on topic here.
It may well have a bearing on how they voted and why.

[Kazanne]

That's the thing kazanne...You don't need to be a brainbox to understand we Irish.

Absouletley amazing to watch a Brexiteer in action.No comprehension about the Border and so true you can laugh all you want at what the border means :puzzled:

I have never said I was a Brexiteer though,people just presume, I just want something ,done,anything to stop this mess we are in at the moment,but, I said I wont comment anymore,so I will leave it at that, I will cope whether we leave or stay.

[lime]

I have never said I was a Brexiteer though,people just presume, I just want something ,done,anything to stop this mess we are in at the moment,but, I said I wont comment anymore,so I will leave it at that, I will cope whether we leave or stay.
You will cope..true

Leave or stay means nothing to YOU:thumbs:

[Kazanne]

You will cope..true

Leave or stay means nothing to YOU:thumbs:

We will have to cope wont we ? whatever we want it will not be up to us ,as proven.:wavey:

[Twosugars]

British government has a legal obligation to safeguard GFA.

If we leave without a deal I'd expect the government will be taken to court for failing that obligation

[Kizzy]

Did anyone genuinely have faith that bojo and Co would safeguard anything especially the GFA?

Nah mate....

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFA4p10XoAEPWT2?format=png&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFAQ99tXsAAuAa9?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[Twosugars]

Germany has a strong socialist element to their capitalism, a regulated capitalism.
So mr prick should not talk bollox. The scandinavians are doing well and also have the same arrangement.
Our fat cats need putting on a diet.

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/uSP0g0B1JN6RNvPnjfKTpA/https/storify.com/services/proxy/2/DZK3kocE2W5s6QJ9NOp3sQ/https/media.fyre.co/YP7c8T52TM2cnvDvoBjR_times-front_1569099572_001.png

[Cherie]

Talking of peoples awareness of basic geography and history is very much on topic here.
It may well have a bearing on how they voted and why.

and so is the fact that that problem with the Irish border was barely afforded a mention during the pre referendum campaign.

[Twosugars]

and so is the fact that that problem with the Irish border was barely afforded a mention during the pre referendum campaign.

Let's face it, the whole of the campaign was at worst lies and at best crap, from both sides.
The country needed, alongside the campaign, public education programmes impartially informing of the facts of our membership and of not being a member.
The lies, as well as scaremongering, have been able to take root bc people are not adequately informed.

[Ammi]

I heard it discussed leading up to the referendum but then I'm a massive nerd who never missed a Daily Politics episode :ninja2:

Obviously the Leave side didn't want to talk about it but some on the Remain side expressed their concerns

...I must be a nerd as well because I’m pretty sure that it was discussed...not just the complication of the Northern Ireland border, but that a leave vote would probably lead to a second Scottish Independence referendum as well... I recall a phrase that was used...(...although I don’t recall who said it...)...of the U.K. being ‘torn apart..’...by a Brexit majority vote if it were to happen...


...anyways, this is a take by Dara O’Briain, which is very interesting and gave me lots of thoughts...whereas other EU countries have embraced the union and the benefits of and the multi culture etc...in the U.K., many people have obviously seen it entirely differently...more as an imposition on them and on ‘their’ country...

1e7FHIffc74

[Cherie]

...I must be a nerd as well because I’m pretty sure that it was discussed...not just the complication of the Northern Ireland border, but that a leave vote would probably lead to a second Scottish Independence referendum as well... I recall a phrase that was used...(...although I don’t recall who said it...)...of the U.K. being ‘torn apart..’...by a Brexit majority vote if it were to happen...


...anyways, this is a take by Dara O’Briain, which is very interesting and gave me lots of thoughts...whereas other EU countries have embraced the union and the benefits of and the multi culture etc...in the U.K., many people have obviously seen it entirely differently...more as an imposition on them and on ‘their’ country...

1e7FHIffc74

You are pretty sure? so that would indicate that its wasn't widely discussed, someone somewhere mentioned it somewhere, but it didn't form part of anything that would stay in peoples consciousness, like the slogan on the bus or the picture of marching immigrants, such a huge issue should have had its own slogans and pictures so it left a lasting impression, not just a comment here and there on a political programme.

[Alf]

They thought they were gonna win, and didn't think they had to put the work in to do so. It was down to pure arrogance.

[Alf]

They still think they're gonna win, even after they've already lost.

[Ammi]

..no, I can only speak for myself as any of us can...what it indicates to me is that there are many things that I can’t have a precise memory of because of the course and journey of my own life...I do feel that people find their own ‘importance’ and obviously their own Brexit voting reasons...for me, the border has always been a huge focus and something I have knowledge about because of my heritage...for others without those connections...?...then I doubt any knowledge would have made a notable difference to a vote...

[Vicky.]

Well I definitely remember it being on that leaflet (mind quite sure, given the quality..it was a kind of 'independant' group sending them out rather than official). But even then, it was kind of in a passing 'nothing to worry about here' way, rather than any actual seriousness. Mind, same leaflet also said we would absolutely not have shortages of anything and...as usual..that reaching a deal would be so easy. I don't remember getting the remain one that that leave one was 'ripping apart' though, so I assume the remain one also mentioned Ireland..given the bullet points were 'refuting' all the stuff in the remain one. Or..more honestly, just yelling 'scaremongering!!!' at each point made, near all of which are coming up today, so yeah, sure it was just scare tactics

It was NOT discussed enough though, by any stretch.

And I agree with Alf that the remain side was arrogant as ****. More specifically, Cameron, with no plan for if it didnt go his way man..how ridiculous :umm2:

I might have a look for all that later, fairly sure I 'put it away somewhere safe'..all the brexit campaign material we got. Only isue is, as usual, the safe place I put them in is so safe I have no ****ing clue where it is now :D

[Ammi]

...the thing that was ‘sold’ the most was immigration and that was also run with by the media...but I do recall also that if that was suggested as a Brexit voting reason..?...then there were many voices of..’we have done our research etc..’...and obviously that would have highlighted the borders plus a possible future exit from Scotland as well, as being huge factors to consider in this ‘forever’ vote....

[arista]

"It was NOT discussed enough though, by any stretch."


It was on TV News and Political programmes.

[Vicky.]

...the thing that was ‘sold’ the most was immigration and that was also run with by the media...but I do recall also that if that was suggested as a Brexit voting reason..?...then there were many voices of..’we have done our research etc..’...and obviously that would have highlighted the borders plus a possible future exit from Scotland as well, as being huge factors to consider in this ‘forever’ vote....
I remember a whole crapload of 'experts are all colluding in this to stop us leaving, they are all lying and/or have no clue what they are talking about, ignore them' stuff.

Didn't help that some of the stuff from the remain side was bollocks though, as it made it easier to point to the dodgy ones and make out all of it was lies. One I remember very cleary (again may have been on an independant one...) was that there would be no pensions for anyone from 2020 onwards, if we left. Which..is obvious bull. At some stage pensions will not be possible, I agree on that. But its not really going to be tied to brexit, and not that quickly either.

[Vicky.]

"It was NOT discussed enough though, by any stretch."


It was on TV News and Political programmes.

As much as 'rargh immigration' was? It was barely talked about on tv or in the media..and only seems to have really became a 'thing' after the vote!

[Ammi]

...but then everything has only become a thing after the vote...Obama tried to say that the U.K. would be last in the queue for a trade deal and outrage was screamed at him for ‘butting in’ and overstepping his knowledge...now the government are storing body bags in fear of trading costing lives...it’s all become ‘a thing’....

[MTVN]

Tbh if it was really amplified it would have just been seen as more 'Project Fear'. What would you put on the side of a bus anyway? 'It will be tricky to avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland without some form of regulatory divergence from the rest of the UK'. It's not gonna resonate. If you went nuclear and said 'Leave will lead to violence in Northern Ireland' it would be seen as irresponsible scaremongering

In the end I think Leave just had the emotional arguments and succeeded in connecting with people who don't normally care about politics while Remain tried to campaign on the same old battlegrounds of the economy which people were tired of hearing about

[Ammi]

...Leave also had the lies, it has to be said...they knew how to appeal to votes...(...even those who rarely voted...)...regardless of truth or lie...

[Vicky.]

Tbh if it was really amplified it would have just been seen as more 'Project Fear'

True

...Leave also had the lies, it has to be said...they knew how to appeal to votes...(...even those who rarely voted...)...regardless of truth or lie...

Levaes campaign was almost entirely lies, from memory.

[Ammi]

...it’s democratic to have a referendum vote based on lies...but un-democratic to have a re-vote based on truths...


...and that will help make ‘Britain Great Again...’...

[bots]

people are obsessed with having another ref or a GE. The whole thing is completely pointless

Don't people understand that our future relationship with the EU is never going to go away. Why would a new ref be accepted as more accurate and legitimate than the previous one. If there was a GE and one side won a majority, they would force through an outcome that 50% of the population disagreed with, that's not a solution.

Even if Boris forces a no deal brexit, we still have to get a deal with the EU at some point and that could easily mean joining the customs union. Our relationship with the EU will reflect the political majority at the time and that will vary over the coming decades

The bottom line is that a new ref, a new GE won't solve anything. Politicians know this, and it never ceases to amaze me that people swallow what politicians are telling them so easily

[Vicky.]

...it’s democratic to have a referendum vote based on lies...but un-democratic to have a re-vote based on truths...




Quite.

For a while now I have thought a second ref is the only way out of it. Options, no deal or revoke. Only thing that makes any sense. I know why the most ardent leavers would not want that though, given so many have changed their minds now that they know a deal is NOT infact easy to reach as they were told...

[Cherie]

Darragh makes some good points particularly with regard to immigration, I don't agree with his sweeping generalisations about NI though, there will still be plenty who remember bombings 'on the mainland' and would not want to return to those dark days

[Alf]

One thing the leave campaign was absolutely adamant on was that if they won, the opposing side wouldn't accept it and try and make us keep voting until they get the result they want. That was something that was regularly said. Did the leave campaign lie about that?

[AnnieK]

One thing the leave campaign was absolutely adamant on was that if they won, the opposing side wouldn't accept it and try and make us keep voting until they get the result they want. That was something that was regularly said. Did the leave campaign lie about that?

But didn't Farage say the same thing? If remain won by a small majority, he would continue campaigning to get a second ref?

[Twosugars]

But didn't Farage say the same thing? If remain won by a small majority, he would continue campaigning to get a second ref?

He also said unless its 33 to 66 the issue will still run. And so it does.

[Alf]

But didn't Farage say the same thing? If remain won by a small majority, he would continue campaigning to get a second ref?Yes! Continue campaigning, not block and obstruct what the people voted for.

Once our decision is implemented, leavers are free to campaign to re-join. But let's do what the country decided first, that would be a start, wouldn't it?

[Vicky.]

One thing the leave campaign was absolutely adamant on was that if they won, the opposing side wouldn't accept it and try and make us keep voting until they get the result they want. That was something that was regularly said. Did the leave campaign lie about that?

I cant believe am about to say this, but I agree with Farage on that one. What he said BEFORE the results though of course, as since the results the tunes been changed hugely.

Edit to add

Farage: In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it

Ha, edited yet again to say, my page had not refreshed so I didnt realise I was basically parroting annie :laugh:

[Vicky.]

Yes! Continue campaigning, not block and obstruct what the people voted for.

Once our decision is implemented, leavers are free to campaign to re-join. But let's do what the country decided first, that would be a start, wouldn't it?

I might be being thick here, but..whats the difference? Campaigning would be pointless if they weren't wanting another vote. Another ref was quite obviously what was meant by it

[Ammi]

...I guess if the majority of Brexiters are anti-re-vote...then that would indicate that any knowledge or talks of the Irish borders../...potential jeopardising if the GFA, would have made no difference....which I guess also, makes me think of Dara’s words again...

[user104658]

I wonder, once we actively leave the EU, are Brexiteers going to be peeved when people start campaigning for re-entry? Will that still be "undemocratic"?

[Alf]

I wonder, once we actively leave the EU, are Brexiteers going to be peeved when people start campaigning for re-entry? Will that still be "undemocratic"?No, it will be fine for a Political party to put in their manifesto a new referendum. Then it will be down to the people to vote them into power.

[Ammi]

I wonder, once we actively leave the EU, are Brexiteers going to be peeved when people start campaigning for re-entry? Will that still be "undemocratic"?

...everyone is going to be too busy hating on Scotland for going for their independence ...you’re the next target, me dear...

[Twosugars]

In the words of Stephen Gethins:

The charlatans and chancers who led the Leave campaign did not even have the decency to set out their plans before the vote, which has led directly to the uncertainty and damage that we face today. The council president has hit the nail on the head with his remarks.

Before any election or referendum, it is a basic part of democracy that those seeking office or a change set out their proposals in a manifesto or white paper and can then be held to account based on what was said before a vote. Yet those who campaigned for leave, including senior UK government ministers, failed even in this basic democratic requirement.

Their action stands in stark contrast to the Scottish government that rightly opened up its plans to full scrutiny by producing a 650-page white paper and other position papers ahead of Scotland’s independence referendum.

Providing a blueprint for future plans as well as means of accountability is responsible politics. Instead, with Brexit, we are faced with a situation where even the UK government itself is warning of food and medicine shortages and the loss hundreds of thousands of jobs and a massive economic hit.

We are facing the worst crisis in peace-time because of senior government figures failing to hold themselves to account for their actions or have a plan for what comes next other than holding the
Tory party together. All the while the Labour party acts as a willing accomplice in inflicting this economic devastation.

The rest of Europe can clearly see that it is all of us in the UK who are paying the price for their continued failure.

[Niamh.]

...I must be a nerd as well because I’m pretty sure that it was discussed...not just the complication of the Northern Ireland border, but that a leave vote would probably lead to a second Scottish Independence referendum as well... I recall a phrase that was used...(...although I don’t recall who said it...)...of the U.K. being ‘torn apart..’...by a Brexit majority vote if it were to happen...


...anyways, this is a take by Dara O’Briain, which is very interesting and gave me lots of thoughts...whereas other EU countries have embraced the union and the benefits of and the multi culture etc...in the U.K., many people have obviously seen it entirely differently...more as an imposition on them and on ‘their’ country...

1e7FHIffc74This is an interesting one as well

O3tkNQBiBB0

[Twosugars]

Yes! Continue campaigning, not block and obstruct what the people voted for.

Once our decision is implemented, leavers are free to campaign to re-join. But let's do what the country decided first, that would be a start, wouldn't it?

It was not a decision, the referendum was advisory
So stop framing it as a decision

[Twosugars]

It was an ill-informed advice

[Alf]

It was not a decision, the referendum was advisory
So stop framing it as a decisionDavid Starkey blows that argument out of the water, on a Brendan O'Neil podcast with Starkey.

Check it out, listen to someone who knows their history and facts.

[Twosugars]

David Starkey blows that argument out of the water, on a Brendan O'Neil podcast with Starkey.

Check it out, listen to someone who knows their history and facts.

It's not an argument, it is a fact

The ref was advisory, non binding :dance:

[Alf]

It's not an argument, it is a fact

The ref was advisory, non binding :dance:David Starkey agrees with what you're saying, he admits it's advisory, but gives you another angle.

[Twosugars]

David Starkey agrees with what your saying, he admits it's advisory, but gives you another angle.

I dont care for his angles.

[Alf]

I dont care for his angles.And that's perfectly fine, you're free to. It makes no difference to me if you want to be ignorant of other people, that's your choice.

[Twosugars]

And that's perfectly fine, you're free to. It makes no difference to me if you want to be ignorant of other people, that's your choice.

I dont care for leaver propaganda and lies.

The simple fact is the ref was advisory and non binding

[Alf]

I dont care for leaver propaganda and lies.

The simple fact is the ref was advisory and non bindingPropaganda? The guy is probably the most famous living historian in the country.

[Ammi]

This is an interesting one as well

O3tkNQBiBB0

...thank you..:love:..I will watch it again a bit later because I’m sure that I didn’t absorb it all on first watch...it’s pretty much a more in depth discussion following on from what Dara said...?...I find it all incredibly sad that, that fragile ‘blood red line’ was so easily discarded...so much is often said of ‘freedoms and identities fought so hard for...our rights, etc...’...and yet freedoms and identities have been discarded, pushed aside..so easily...how ironic..?....it’s also incredibly sad that the freedom and identity of people has been voted on with little or no knowledge...that to me would be like a jury deciding a verdict on a case they were not present in the courtroom for and hadn’t heard the evidence and defence...:sad:..

[Twosugars]

Propaganda? The guy is probably the most famous living historian in the country.

He is not the most famous historian, plus he is a brexiteer and a tory, so hardly impartial on the issue

I dont need his spin

In law ref was advisory and non biding, that all.

[Alf]

He is not the most famous historian, plus he is a brexiteer and a tory, so hardly impartial on the issue

I dont need his spin

In law ref was advisory and non biding, that all.Who's spin do you need?

[Alf]

All this talk about Ireland. Didn't Ireland vote to leave the EU or some sort of vote on the EU and they were made to vote again until they voted the correct way?

I remember hearing something about that.

[The Slim Reaper]

All this talk about Ireland. Didn't Ireland vote to leave the EU or some sort of vote on the EU and they were made to vote again until they voted the correct way?

I remember hearing something about that.

I do like this selectiveness. You posted a few pages ago about how we'll have more money for the NHS when we stop paying into the EU, I gave you the real financial info and you disappeared faster than Madeline.

[Alf]

I do like this selectiveness. You posted a few pages ago about how we'll have more money for the NHS when we stop paying into the EU, I gave you the real financial info and you disappeared faster than Madeline.You don't know the financial info. Why would they tell you?

[The Slim Reaper]

You don't know the financial info. Why would they tell you?

That's really the reply you want to go with?

They don't have to tell me, independent financial experts make it known to everyone, by looking at the data and reporting their findings.

[Alf]

That's really the reply you want to go with?

They don't have to tell me, independent financial experts make it known to everyone, by looking at the data and reporting their findings.Good on em' I expect they do a great job.

[Twosugars]

I do like this selectiveness. You posted a few pages ago about how we'll have more money for the NHS when we stop paying into the EU, I gave you the real financial info and you disappeared faster than Madeline.

Not Madeleine:omgno:

[Niamh.]

All this talk about Ireland. Didn't Ireland vote to leave the EU or some sort of vote on the EU and they were made to vote again until they voted the correct way?

I remember hearing something about that.No we never voted to leave the EU

[Twosugars]

No we never voted to leave the EU

Why vote to leave a family of supportive fellow Europeans
Unless you want to become an American colony that is

[lime]

This is an interesting one as well

O3tkNQBiBB0
it's getting to the stage now that I see those in the UK have no comprehesion about the British border here in Ireland..Just shocking.

[lime]

No we never voted to leave the EU

facts don't matter in Brexitland

[arista]

it's getting to the stage now that I see those in the UK have no comprehesion about the British border here in Ireland..Just shocking.



No they all know
but want to keep their Parliament Conservative Leave seats.


Its not Shocking
its Typical.

[Alf]

facts don't matter in BrexitlandResults don't matter to Communists.

[lime]

Results don't matter to Communists.

Cool story but WTf has it go do with the British border here in Ireland:shrug:

[MTVN]

Alf is thinking about the referendum on the Lisbon treaty I expect

[Alf]

Cool story but WTf has it go do with the British border here in Ireland:shrug:I wasn't talking about the border in Ireland. I was responding to your insult of people who want to leave the EU.

It's strange that I have to explain that to you, and why you thought we was discussing something else.

[Alf]

Alf is thinking about the referendum on the Lisbon treaty I expectThere was something when they were made to vote again, right?

[lime]

No they all know
but want to keep their Parliament Conservative Leave seats.


Its not Shocking
its Typical.

tragic that they push us under the bus so that they will hold their Conservative seats:bawling::bawling:

[MTVN]

There was something when they were made to vote again, right?

They rejected the Lisbon treaty then passed it on a second referendum although I think it was a revised treaty that they then approved

At least Ireland had a referendum on it though - we were always promised one and never got it. It's why I think Cameron has a point that sooner or later an EU referendum would have been needed in this country because there'd been so many transfers of powers from countries to the EU since we joined it that the UKs position needing resolving

[bots]

There was something when they were made to vote again, right?

yes, there was. It's happened in other EU countries too where the referendum was rerun

[lime]

I wasn't talking about the border in Ireland. I was responding to your insult of people who want to leave the EU.

It's strange that I have to explain that to you, and why you thought we was discussing something else.
Never insulted anyone that want's to leave the EU..would just rather deal with fact's
You already acknowledged you didn't understand the Lisbon treaty here in Ireland.

fact's my friend

[Alf]

They rejected the Lisbon treaty then passed it on a second referendum although I think it was a revised treaty that they then approved

At least Ireland had a referendum on it though - we were always promised one and never got it. It's why I think Cameron has a point that sooner or later an EU referendum would have been needed in this country because there'd been so many transfers of powers from countries to the EU since we joined it that the UKs position needing resolvingAs much as this referendum as been a sh!t show. I think it was needed, and it's really exposed people for what they are and shown the absolute contempt our representatives have for the people they're paid to serve, and how far removed they are from the people of this country. This definitely needed to happen to drain the swamp, I only hope it ends peacefully.

[lime]

Out of interest where are you based?I always thought you where British but now i see your use of language " drain the swamp".

Are you American?

[arista]

tragic that they push us under the bus so that they will hold their Conservative seats:bawling::bawling:


Yes it is Tragic.


Like when Chamberlain (1939)
got a Plane for the first time
met Hitler , got him to sign his treaty
then came home - happy.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Fsundaytimes%2Fprodmigration%2Fweb%2Fbin% 2F05b24532-3182-4147-a5b2-322b0289e7e8.jpg?crop=580%2C350%2C0%2C0
Sure Nev I will Sign your Treaty in FULL.

[Alf]

Out of interest where are you based?I always thought you where British but now i see your use of language " drain the swamp".

Are you American?The American language is English. "Drain the swamp" is spoken in English, not American.

[Twosugars]

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts

According to the Guardian


:dance:

[arista]

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts

According to the Guardian


:dance:


Sure
then what?

[joeysteele]

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts

According to the Guardian


:dance:


I think it's possible but no way could the Guardian have any inkling.

Judges are always hard to fathom as to where they may go on judgements and even sentencing.

If they were to in any way to reach conclusions that Johnson has even slightly been deceitful.
For any other PM, in any credible government, they'd either morally resign or their Party force them out.

This PM however seems to think he is above any laws and even democracy.
The worst thing is, anyone admiring him and supporting him.
Making his delusion worse.

[Twosugars]

I think it's possible but no way could the Guardian have any inkling.

Judges are always hard to fathom as to where they may go on judgements and even sentencing.

If they were to in any way to reach conclusions that Johnson has even slightly been deceitful.
For any other PM, in any credible government, they'd either morally resign or their Party force them out.

This PM however seems to think he is above any laws and even democracy.
The worst thing is, anyone admiring him and supporting him.
Making his delusion worse.

The paper talked to some lawyers and observers so it is just a hunch but I hope it's right

[bots]

the only reason the judgement was delayed until next week was because the judges were split, so all we know is that they have differing views at the moment. How that changes over the next couple of days is anyones guess. All the judges in Scotland were unanimous in it being illegal so if they go against that majority it will be a significant ruling, that won't play out well in Scotland

[joeysteele]

The paper talked to some lawyers and observers so it is just a hunch but I hope it's right

Myself too, hoping it's right Twosugars.

[Twosugars]

The question of why Wales voted to leave the EU can in large part be answered by the number of English retired people who have moved across the border, research has found.

Despite being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, Wales voted leave by a majority of 52% to 48% in the 2016 referendum – a result that took some analysts by surprise. However, work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters.

“If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas, especially the Welsh-speaking ones, they did not want to leave the EU,” Dorling told the Sunday Times. “Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers.”

About 21% (650,000) of people living in Wales were born in England, with nearly a quarter aged over 65. The country voted for Brexit by a majority of just 82,000.

Border towns and areas of central Wales with large English communities, such as Wrexham and Powys, recorded a higher proportion of leave votes, whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion had high remain votes.
More here https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research


Brexit a result of english nationalism ?

[Alf]

The question of why Wales voted to leave the EU can in large part be answered by the number of English retired people who have moved across the border, research has found.

Despite being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, Wales voted leave by a majority of 52% to 48% in the 2016 referendum – a result that took some analysts by surprise. However, work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters.

“If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas, especially the Welsh-speaking ones, they did not want to leave the EU,” Dorling told the Sunday Times. “Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers.”

About 21% (650,000) of people living in Wales were born in England, with nearly a quarter aged over 65. The country voted for Brexit by a majority of just 82,000.

Border towns and areas of central Wales with large English communities, such as Wrexham and Powys, recorded a higher proportion of leave votes, whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion had high remain votes.
More here https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research


Brexit a result of english nationalism ?
You say English nationalism as though it's a bad thing. What is it you have against the English. Is it jealousy because we're so great?

[Twosugars]

You say English nationalism as though it's a bad thing. What is it you have against the English. Is it jealousy because we're so great?

Not caring about all parts of the country, that's what I have against SOME English

[Alf]

Not caring about all parts of the country, that's what I have against SOME EnglishI have nothing against Polish people.I certainly wouldn't go live in Poland and then call fook out the people of Poland.

[Twosugars]

I have nothing against Polish people.I certainly wouldn't go live in Poland and then call fook out the people of Poland.

I'm half English btw.
And even more critical of the Polish :laugh: but dont get to air that here often as theres not much interest in that on a British forum.

Nice try to get me to shut up, attacking my nationality. Very freedom of speech of you :laugh:

[Alf]

I'm half English btw.
And even more critical of the Polish :laugh: but dont get to air that here often as theres not much interest in that on a British forum.

Nice try to get me to shut up, attacking my nationality. Very freedom of speech of you :laugh:Did you start this conversation by attacking English people, and ended it by making yourself the victim?

[Kizzy]

If we truly are democratic and the kingdoms of the UK divolved then why wasn't the referendum done by country? That way there would be no taking another country out against its will. The votes could have been stratified by population?

[Twosugars]

Did you start this conversation by attacking English people, and ended it by making yourself the victim?

I attacked english nationalism. You seem to confuse it for english patriotism or english nationality. I suggest you look up the terms.
A victim? yes a victim of your attempt to shut me down based on my dual nationality.
A nasty trick to play, especially if you claim to love freedom of speech.
Can you not handle an opposing opinion and debate it on topic? Why you have to attack the person not the opinion? Out of arguments I guess :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Out of interest where are you based?I always thought you where British but now i see your use of language " drain the swamp".

Are you American?

Sounds like a political analogy to me. If somewhere is a no go cesspool of undesirables then get rid of them by any means.

[Kizzy]

You say English nationalism as though it's a bad thing. What is it you have against the English. Is it jealousy because we're so great?

FYI. . We're not that great, I assume as an English person I'm allowed to say that? Most of what we had when we had stuff we stole.

[Alf]

FYI. . We're not that great, I assume as an English person I'm allowed to say that? Most of what we had when we had stuff we stole.What did we steal? And why do we no longer have it, did somebody give our treasure away?

[Scarlett.]

What did we steal? And why do we no longer have it, did somebody give our treasure away?

Have you ever looked into any of the **** the British Empire got up to?

[Tom4784]

This is why patriotism and nationalism is ultimately a bad thing, it blinds people to the truth of things. The British Empire was built upon a foundation of bad deeds and thievery and you can't drown out history with a rousing rendition of 'Rule, Britannia'.

Better to see things how they were and are then to live in delusion about the Empire's impact on the world.

[Alf]

This is why patriotism and nationalism is ultimately a bad thing, it blinds people to the truth of things. The British Empire was built upon a foundation of bad deeds and thievery and you can't drown out history with a rousing rendition of 'Rule, Britannia'.

Better to see things how they were and are then to live in delusion about the Empire's impact on the world.The EU empire is built on bad deeds and thievery, yet you worship that.

[Alf]

Have you ever looked into any of the **** the British Empire got up to?No, but I'm willing to listen and find out, if you want to tell me?

[Tom4784]

The EU empire is built on bad deeds and thievery, yet you worship that.

Wrong, as usual.

The world is not split into remainers and brexiters.

[Kizzy]

What did we steal? And why do we no longer have it, did somebody give our treasure away?

As colonialists we stole a lot from lots of places

[Twosugars]

Barnier calls the latest backstop proposals by bojo the clown "unacceptable "

The UK government has proposed maintaining an all-Ireland sanitary and phytosanitary zone for agrifood products to ensure that the flow of 30% by value of the trade across the border is unimpeded.

The EU has said this “partial” solution does not avoid additional customs and VAT checks on the island of Ireland nor deal with the issue of manufactured goods that cross the border after Brexit.

The backstop in the withdrawal agreement would in effect keep Northern Ireland in the single market and the whole of the UK in a shared customs territory in order to maintain peace, protect the north-south economy and avoid border infrastructure of even additional related checks.

Of the UK’s suggestion that customs paperwork could be done away from the border and that technology and trusted trade schemes could facilitate the necessary checks, Barnier raised doubts.

“Objectively, there are possibilities,” Barnier said, but added: “I don’t know how to inspect a cow with virtual methods.”
The Guardian

[joeysteele]

If we truly are democratic and the kingdoms of the UK divolved then why wasn't the referendum done by country? That way there would be no taking another country out against its will. The votes could have been stratified by population?



The referendum was extremely badly planned.

However, I think it should NOT be dismissed that 2 Nations of the UK voted remain and 2 Nations voted leave.
The 2 who voted remain both voted by double figure majorities to.

It really was only the fact England has around 5 times the voters of Scotland, Wales and N Ireland put together which decided the referendum outcome.

Now okay it was a UK refetendum.
However dismissing and overriding the divisions of the 4 Countries of the UK.
Will mean probably those divisions will never heal.
As 2 of them will feel their needs and status are irrelevant.

I think, just my view, a new referendum is needed and at least 3 UK Countries must vote the same way for it to be valid and acted on.

[Twosugars]

On Monday, the head of the Bar Council condemned unidentified “Number 10” sources who were quoted in the weekend papers as warning the judiciary about taking sides over Brexit.

Richard Atkins QC, chair of the organisation that represents barristers in England and Wales, also criticised death threats sent to one of the litigants in the prorogation case whose home address was revealed on Twitter.

“It is a low point in the history of our nation when a faceless ‘No 10 source’ refers to ‘remainiac lawyers’ and issues threats to the judiciary about its constitutional role suggesting that judges take sides,” said Atkins.

“The rule of law and the independence of the judiciary are fundamental pillars of our democracy. Judges do not take sides as the Downing Street source suggests, but apply the law ‘without fear or favour’.”
The Guardian

[bots]

declared unlawful by the supreme court

[arista]

The Supreme Court has ruled
Parliament No Longer Prorogued.


All media.


1176431993539764224

[Vanessa]

The Supreme Court has ruled
Parliament No Longer Prorogued.


All media.
Brilliant news. I'm over the moon! :hee:

[arista]

Brilliant news. I'm over the moon! :hee:



But Johnson PM
is in New York City.



He is not going to Resign

[Vanessa]

But Johnson PM
is in New York City.



He is not going to Resign

He needs to go. At this point, I think Corbin might be a better pm.

[arista]

He needs to go. At this point, I think Corbyn might be a better pm.


He will not Resign
on the word of the Poxy SNP

[AnnieK]

Just another thing to add to the list of National embarrassment

[smudgie]

Just have a ruddy election.
Make sure all sides have a crystal clear manifesto as to Brexit, and get on with it.
Then we can have the horror of finding someone suitable to rule the country out of the rabble on offer.:fist:

[joeysteele]

Any other PM would be forced out after this from the highest court in the land.

He has NO credibility left.
Not a scrap.

[Vanessa]

He will not Resign
on the word of the Poxy SNP

He has to. No one trust him now. He's a loser cannon

[Vanessa]

Any other PM would be forced out after this from the highest court in the land.

He has NO credibility left.
Not a scrap.

Exactly. What the point in him staying now? He can't be trusted.

[Vanessa]

I really think Corbin could make a good pm. Certainly better that that clown we have now.

[bots]

if he thinks this is bad now, just wait till he tries to force a no deal brexit through on the 31st

[Scarlett.]

So he made the Queen take part in an unlawful suspension of parliament. Naughty Boris.

[Niamh.]

So he made the Queen take part in an unlawful suspension of parliament. Naughty Boris.

Did he lie to the Queen? Is that not treason or something :hehe:

[bots]

Did he lie to the Queen? Is that not treason or something :hehe:

he made the queen a co-conspirator ... she is now a criminal :laugh:

its a good point though, there is usually some punishment for an unlawful act, this isn't over yet, it will go back to the lower courts for action

[arista]

He has to. No one trust him now. He's a loser cannon



He Does not have to Resign
Poxy SNP do not Rule England



The PM can shut Down Parliament , again.

[arista]

Did he lie to the Queen? Is that not treason or something :hehe:


NO

[joeysteele]

He Does not have to Resign
Poxy SNP do not Rule England



The PM can shut Down Parliament , again.



For 5 to 6 days before a Queens speech.
A Queens speech he may not even get passed.

If he tried a longer one, this judgements would render that already unlawful and he'd see it back in court again.

I don't think you grasp the seriousness of his manipulation and deceit in this, even involving the Monarch

All 11 judges agreed the judgement.

Defend him all you will, HE has tried to get away with closing down democracy in the UK.

So much for leave supporters saying this was taking democracy back.

This is a disgrace from a serving PM.

[The Slim Reaper]

he made the queen a co-conspirator ... she is now a criminal :laugh:

its a good point though, there is usually some punishment for an unlawful act, this isn't over yet, it will go back to the lower courts for action

I only found out a few months ago that the queen has never had a driving lesson, has never taken her test, and doesn't even have a licence, yet still drives on the roads.

[arista]

Any other PM would be forced out after this from the highest court in the land.

He has NO credibility left.
Not a scrap.


Yes Joey
But due to us leaving on the 31st October
this means he is Our PM

[The Slim Reaper]

he made the queen a co-conspirator ... she is now a criminal :laugh:

its a good point though, there is usually some punishment for an unlawful act, this isn't over yet, it will go back to the lower courts for action

I only found out a few months ago that the queen has never had a driving lesson, has never taken her test, and doesn't even have a licence, yet still drives on the roads. She should have an ASBO.

[arista]

I really think Corbyn could make a good pm. Certainly better that that clown we have now.



Corbyn is in Brighton at his Conference




If you like him Vote on the Next General Election

[The Slim Reaper]

L397TWLwrUU

[The Slim Reaper]

AL8chWFuM-s

[Twosugars]

Great stuff. And the verdict was unanimous

Good to know we still have some law upheld in this country

Down with the lying clown. He implicated the queen in his machinations
Inexcusable

[The Slim Reaper]

1176431923100618754

[arista]

Great stuff. And the verdict was unanimous

Good to know we still have some law upheld in this country

Down with the lying clown. He implicated the queen in his machinations
Inexcusable



JohnsonPM
in NYC can go for a General Election.

[arista]

1176431923100618754


Yes You will have to Vote Labour
in the next General Election.

[The Slim Reaper]

JohnsonPM
in NYC can go for a General Election.


He needs to resign in disgrace, Arista.

[arista]

He needs to resign in disgrace, Arista.


He does not need to
General Election
you can Vote JohnsonPM Out

[The Slim Reaper]

He does not need to
General Election
you can Vote JohnsonPM Out

1176431687380717568

You cant be as tough on the law as you say you are then just ignore what he's done.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOQtmLW4AE8wiE?format=jpg&name=360x360

[Twosugars]

JohnsonPM
in NYC can go for a General Election.


Nobody will let him have elections before brexit deadline bc
he can't be trusted

[Twosugars]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOQtmLW4AE8wiE?format=jpg&name=360x360

She was made look stupid by the lying clown

[Saph]

theyre all so annoying


just get someone with common sense

[arista]

Nobody will let him have elections before brexit deadline bc
he can't be trusted



1176449846946992129

Yes Katy
Bring the General Election On

[arista]

theyre all so annoying


just get someone with common sense


Corbyn or Johnson.
Only.
Next UK General Election soon.

[The Slim Reaper]

He should appeal to the European courts :smug:

[Niamh.]

He should appeal to the European courts :smug:

:hehe:

[Twosugars]

1176449846946992129

Yes Katy
Bring the General Election On

Caretaker government otherwise no elections

[arista]

Parliament will open again
Tomorrow Weds 25th.
NO PMQ's


The Speaker Bercow just confirmed.

[arista]

Caretaker government otherwise no elections



No

[Alf]

So now it's been found unlawful, can Boris just recall Parliament and prorogue it again?

Does this prorogation being found unlawful stop him from proroguing again?

[Vanessa]

So now it's been found unlawful, can Boris just recall Parliament and prorogue it again?

Does this prorogation being found unlawful stop him from proroguing again?

I hope so.

[arista]

So now it's been found unlawful, can Boris just recall Parliament and prorogue it again?

Does this prorogation being found unlawful stop him from proroguing again?



He Is NYC
having breakfast.

He may shut the buggers down again.

Parliament opens again at 11:30AM tomorrow

[Twosugars]

So now it's been found unlawful, can Boris just recall Parliament and prorogue it again?

Does this prorogation being found unlawful stop him from proroguing again?

nobody needs bojo to recall parliament

the supreme court said the speaker will do that

[Alf]

I say let's have a General election and let's sort all this mess out.

[Twosugars]

No

you have no say

you're not an MP

you work in the City, remember?

[Twosugars]

I say let's have a General election and let's sort all this mess out.

Opposition will not give him elections before the brexit deadline

They don't trust him not to take us out without a deal on the sly

he is a liar
and now he made queen look a fool

[The Slim Reaper]

1176452753415184391

[Alf]

Opposition will not give him elections before the brexit deadline

They don't trust him not to take us out without a deal on the sly

he is a liar
and now he made queen look a foolThat's fine. We're obviously not leaving now on the 31st of October. Boris is now probably going to have to go to the EU and ask for an extention.

So we'll do the election in November, but whenever it is, this entire Parliament needs kicking out, it's not fit for purpose.

[Braden]

1176435543581876224

Michelle Fowler has popped. off.

[The Slim Reaper]

That's fine. We're obviously not leaving now on the 31st of October. Boris is now probably going to have to go to the EU and ask for an extention.

So we'll do the election in November, but whenever it is, this entire Parliament needs kicking out, it's not fit for purpose.

Need another referendum before the next GE. Too many shenanigans and hocus pocus going on to trust this government with anything. The next government needs a deal/no deal/remain mandate before taking office. Not even brexiteers are talking about the same things anymore so this has to be addressed first.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOhcGQW4AAbVRQ?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFOhcGQW4AAbVRQ?format=jpg&name=small



how nice

[Alf]

Need another referendum before the next GE. Too many shenanigans and hocus pocus going on to trust this government with anything. The next government needs a deal/no deal/remain mandate before taking office. Not even brexiteers are talking about the same things anymore so this has to be addressed first.Another referendum is impossible, because now the leave side can just not accept the vote if it lost, it'll just call it 1-1. Progress can not be made until we just leave the EU, as the people instructed them to do.

[arista]

you have no say

you're not an MP

you work in the City, remember?



Correct I am not a MP
but Conservative Cabinet members are not going on air
instructions from their head office.

[Twosugars]

Another referendum is impossible, because now the leave side can just not accept the vote if it lost, it'll just call it 1-1. Progress can not be made until we just leave the EU, as the people instructed them to do.

Leave won narrowly promising a deal

[The Slim Reaper]

Another referendum is impossible, because now the leave side can just not accept the vote if it lost, it'll just call it 1-1. Progress can not be made until we just leave the EU, as the people instructed them to do.

Farage said you'd win the referendum by a bigger margin if there was a 2nd one, so this should be a formality. We can't end up back in a position where any PM is trying to force us out on a no deal. It's not what you voted for, it's not what Arista voted for, or any other person that was promised a deal in the campaign.

[Alf]

Leave won narrowly promising a dealThe people were asked if they'd like to remain or leave the EU, nothing about any deal. The people decided to leave the EU. That was over 3 years ago. They're the facts, everything else is a side show.

By trying to make my vote meaningless, you're also trying to make your own vote meaningless, and everybody else's vote.

[The Slim Reaper]

The people were asked if they'd like to remain or leave the EU, nothing about any deal. The people decided to leave the EU. That was over 3 years ago. They're the facts, everything else is a side show.

By trying to make my vote meaningless, you're also trying to make your own vote meaningless, and everybody else's vote.

Leaving without a deal was ridiculed as project fear. All the campaigners told us of this magnificent deal waiting for us. No deal should not be allowed to happen unless the public now say that's what they want.

[Twosugars]

The people were asked if they'd like to remain or leave the EU, nothing about any deal. The people decided to leave the EU. That was over 3 years ago. They're the facts, everything else is a side show.

By trying to make my vote meaningless, you're also trying to make your own vote meaningless, and everybody else's vote.

The leave campaign promised a deal

I appreciate this promise has turned out to be a lie, like everything else they said.

That means people voted leave based on a false prospectus

All the more reason to rerun the referendum

[Twosugars]

“It is for parliament, and in particular the Speaker and the Lord Speaker, to decide what to do next. Unless there is some parliamentary rule of which we are unaware, they can take immediate steps to enable each house to meet as soon as possible. It is not clear to us that any step is needed from the prime minister, but if it is, the court is pleased that his counsel have told the court that he will take all necessary steps to comply with the terms of any declaration made by this court.”

Said lady Hale.
No role for the lying clown in bringing back parliament.

[Alf]

Leaving without a deal was ridiculed as project fear. All the campaigners told us of this magnificent deal waiting for us. No deal should not be allowed to happen unless the public now say that's what they want.I don't care what all the politicians, experts, TV presenters, campaigners told us, it means nothing. The people spoke and that's all that matters, they gave the answer to the question asked of them. We should be out by now.

[user104658]

I don't care what all the politicians, experts, TV presenters, campaigners told us, it means nothing. The people spoke and that's all that matters, they gave the answer to the question asked of them. We should be out by now.

TBH I don't necessarily disagree that we should be out by now - we should have had a deal negotiated over a year ago, and have been out with trade routes already established in March. It would have been economically damaging, it would have eroded our place on the world stage, but it wouldn't have been a disaster.

But it was grossly mishandled and still NOTHING is in place. The answer to this is not just to "crash out anyway lol". So we're not talking about whether or not we should be out already... we're talking about a sensible path forwards that doesn't end in potential disaster for the entire country.

[Twosugars]

“This second success for our client Gina Miller in the supreme court is a testament to her resolve to take whatever steps are required to ensure executive overreach does not become a feature of our democracy. This case shows that our courts can be relied on to hold the executive to account when necessary and is evidence of the robustness of our system of separations of powers.”

Said by a Gina Miller lawyer.

That woman has done so much for the rule of law. A true patriot.

[Alf]

The leave campaign promised a deal

I appreciate this promise has turned out to be a lie, like everything else they said.

That means people voted leave based on a false prospectus

All the more reason to rerun the referendumYou only believe that if you underestimate the people. Politicians have always told lies, the people know that, but they will make their own mind up at the end of the day. Go look at the aftermath of any election, and you'll see campaign groups from all sides having to pay fines for dishonest campaigning.

[The Slim Reaper]

“This second success for our client Gina Miller in the supreme court is a testament to her resolve to take whatever steps are required to ensure executive overreach does not become a feature of our democracy. This case shows that our courts can be relied on to hold the executive to account when necessary and is evidence of the robustness of our system of separations of powers.”

Said by a Gina Miller lawyer.

That woman has done so much for the rule of law. A true patriot.

She's getting death threats on twitter from some English gallahads.

[Vanessa]

Surely now the Parliament has to come back? Its only fair.

[Twosugars]

You only believe that if you underestimate the people. Politicians have always told lies, the people know that, but they will make their own mind up at the end of the day. Go look at the aftermath of any election, and you'll see campaign groups from all sides having to pay fines for dishonest campaigning.

Dont make me laugh

Most googled question after the referendum was "what is the EU "

You may believe in some mystical wisdom of masses but I dont.
We'd not have Hitler and other criminals coming to power democratically if masses were always right

[smudgie]

Surely now the Parliament has to come back? Its only fair.

It’s back in the morning Vanessa.

[Twosugars]

Surely now the Parliament has to come back? Its only fair.

Tomorrow, all set.

[The Slim Reaper]

You only believe that if you underestimate the people. Politicians have always told lies, the people know that, but they will make their own mind up at the end of the day. Go look at the aftermath of any election, and you'll see campaign groups from all sides having to pay fines for dishonest campaigning.

Let's say that only 4% expected a deal, then that's the majority of the referendum gone. Not delivering on a childcare election promise is slightly different from enacting an event on the British public that forced the government to stock up on body bags.

[Alf]

She's getting death threats on twitter from some English gallahads.Don't worry about it, Katie Hopkins gets them everyday. Concerned?

[Twosugars]

She's getting death threats on twitter from some English gallahads.

Of course. Violence and murder are debating weapon of choice for far right. They have a track record to prove that.

Hope she's got good protection

[Vanessa]

Corbin is right. The prime minister has to resign.

[Vanessa]

It’s back in the morning Vanessa.

Brilliant news. I'm so happy!

[joeysteele]

Not only the Country, how can Parliament and the Monarch again trust this PM and his advisors.

His advisors advise but the PM decides.

He has acted unlawfully and virtually instructed the Queen to sign a wrong, unlawful and virtual blank piece of paper.

He ought not have any office never mind the highest elected of the land.

It's a breach of trust and he's brought the office of PM into disrepute.

[Vanessa]

:clap1: hope he goes Not only the Country, how can Parliament and the Monarch again trust this PM and his advisors.

His advisors advise but the PM decides.

He has acted unlawfully and virtually instructed the Queen to sign a wrong, unlawful and virtual blank piece of paper.

He ought not have any office never mind the highest elected of the land.

It's a breach of trust and he's brought the office of PM into disrepute.

[Alf]

Dont make me laugh

Most googled question after the referendum was "what is the EU "

You may believe in some mystical wisdom of masses but I dont.
We'd not have Hitler and other criminals coming to power democratically if masses were always rightNo! I believe and stand with the people of the United Kingdom. You obviously disagree and don't stand with the people of the United Kingdom. Not only that, you stand against them.

[Scarlett.]

No! I believe and stand with the people of the United Kingdom. You obviously disagree and don't stand with the people of the United Kingdom. Not only that, you stand against them.

Lol

That rhetoric is so tired

[Alf]

Lol

That rhetoric is so tiredWell, you know what they say, "the old ones are the best"

[Alf]

According to Talk radio, a Downing street source as said that Boris will not be resigning.

[Twosugars]

According to Talk radio, a Downing street source as said that Boris will not be resigning.

Nobody expected him to.

He has no honour or decency. So resigning would be out of character

[Twosugars]

No! I believe and stand with the people of the United Kingdom. You obviously disagree and don't stand with the people of the United Kingdom. Not only that, you stand against them.

Lol which people? I stand with 48% +

[The Slim Reaper]

According to Talk radio, a Downing street source as said that Boris will not be resigning.

Not surprising; his backers have bet £8billion against the pound in the event we crash out with a no deal. He has to do everything in his power to make that bet work.

[arista]

Surely now the Parliament has to come back? Its only fair.



Back 11:30AM
tomorrow,


Meanwhile Johnson PM
Live in NYC is carrying on with Brexit

[arista]

Corbin is right. The prime minister has to resign.


Make the Effort to Spell his Name Correct
Corbyn.

[The Slim Reaper]

Considers Vanessa's spelling a problem, but is OK with BJ's unlawfulness.

Priorities.

[arista]

Considers Vanessa's spelling a problem, but is OK with BJ's unlawfulness.

Priorities.



Its a Supreme Court
changing his set up.

Meanwhile Johnson PM
in NYC is going ahead with Brexit.


Nothing has Changed

[Vanessa]

Sorry :laugh:

[Twosugars]

Its a Supreme Court
changing his set up.

Meanwhile Johnson PM
in NYC is going ahead with Brexit.


Nothing has Changed

You have no comment on unlawful actions and assault on parliamentary democracy?

Thought you were big on the law of the land?

[arista]

Sorry :laugh:


OK

Corbyn is in Parliament Tomorrow
But The PM is in NYC.

[arista]

You have no comment on unlawful actions and assault on parliamentary democracy?

Thought you were big on the law of the land?




Its a Ruling
that cancelled his Set UP
Thats all they did.

Nothing has changed in the PM's Plan.

[Twosugars]

Its a Ruling
that cancelled his Set UP
Thats all they did.

Nothing has changed in the PM's Plan.

Where is the condemnation of his hubris?