The EU - Referendum - 23rd of June 2016 - in or out?

[arista]

If it’s going to be some super soft single market customs union Corbynite brexit.
I’d rather remain.

There’s no benefit over what we already have.


Yes it looks a right mess now

[arista]

so today's schedule

12pm PM's Question Time

Ten Minute Rule Motion - Kerry mccarthy

Motion - business of the house sir oliver letwin, yvette cooper

Legislation - European Union withdrawal agreement No.5 Bill: 2nd reading

Motion - to approve a statutory instrument relating to the draft electronic communications EU Exit regulations 2019, Margot James

motion - to approve a statutory instrument relating to the draft trade in torture etc. Goods EU Exit regulations 2019 Dr Liam Fox


so quite some things for today then


Yes Trying to Stop No Deal.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/80D1/production/_106277923_thesunfront.jpg

I love that brexit was about not being told by what to do by foreigners, except Murdoch of course!

[arista]

1113411545743204352

[arista]

But........................

1113412604318355458

[Twosugars]

I love that brexit was about not being told by what to do by foreigners, except Murdoch of course!
this

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1113408283036008448/F35zX82B?format=jpg&name=600x314

[Nicky91]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1113408283036008448/F35zX82B?format=jpg&name=600x314

:joker: :joker:

great cartoon, who made it?


we in our dutch news tabloids also got funny cartoons about trending topics, i love those too :)

[Cherie]

May opening PM Questions with the line about Relentlessness.....the irony :joker:

[arista]

:joker: :joker:

great cartoon, who made it?


we in our dutch news tabloids also got funny cartoons about trending topics, i love those too :)


The Cartoonist on the Telegraph
I could only post it as it was on twitter

Telegraph want you to pay to get to so much.
"Premium"

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3J-SwWXkAA7Yxb.jpg

[The Slim Reaper]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3J-SwWXkAA7Yxb.jpg

Turning point are a bunch of tossers, especially across the pond.

[arista]

Turning point are a bunch of tossers, especially across the pond.


Sure
But good Remix Art

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/40B7/production/_106276561_brexit_flowchart_next_steps_02_april_v3 _640-nc.png

The PM must have a New Deal
Her and the Labour Leader
by Next Weds 10th April EU Summit

[reece(:]

1113456310077591553

[arista]

The Motion Vote is Delayed

[arista]

The Motion Vote is

Yes 310
No 310

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3PgNohXoAIJ6c3.jpg

But Bercow added his Vote on top the No's

So it's 311 to NO Votes on Monday 3rd time.

[Nicky91]

:laugh: :laugh: that uk parliament is such a big mess

[arista]

:laugh: :laugh: that uk parliament is such a big mess


Yes a Tie
So Speaker Bercow
added his vote
which stops the Votes on Monday

[arista]

Yes : 312
No : 311

Cooper Debate Motion Wins


[17:53

Vote passes by ONE vote
A vote on whether to proceed with Sir Oliver Letwin and Yvette Cooper's bill passes by one vote.
Ayes: 312
Noes: 311
The bill, if passed, would force the PM to seek a further Brexit delay to avoid a no-deal exit on 12 April.]

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3Por4nXoAEnJBy.jpg

[Cherie]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3Por4nXoAEnJBy.jpg

Are we going to get an orderly Brexit though :laugh:

[arista]

Are we going to get an orderly Brexit though :laugh:


To Early To Say
Fine Lady

[Cherie]

To Early To Say
Fine Lady

I just like saying 'orderly Brexit', as soon as Mr C comes through the door I ask him will it be orderly, I think I'm going insane or maybe I already have gone insane who knows :laugh:

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3P_gXJXoAAAROI.jpg

[Northern Monkey]

Hard Brexit,Soft Brexit,Red White and Blue Brexit,Clean Brexit,Brexit in name only Brexit,Smooth Brexit,Brexit means Brexit,Norway Brexit,Canada Plus Brexit,Cliff edge Brexit,Tory Brexit,Common Market 2.0 Brexit,Orderly Brexit...No Deal Brexit,WTO Brexit,Crash Exit,Dogs Brexit,Negotiated Brexit,The Brexit that Time Forgot,Once Upon A Time in Brexico......Aaargh!sfhfrvbf

[Cherie]

Hard Brexit,Soft Brexit,Red White and Blue Brexit,Clean Brexit,Brexit in name only Brexit,Smooth Brexit,Brexit means Brexit,Norway Brexit,Canada Plus Brexit,Cliff edge Brexit,Orderly Brexit...

Monkeys snapped

[Northern Monkey]

Monkeys snapped

Just weighing up my options

[James]

Latest Brexit vote news brought to you by me in the absence of Arista.


MPs have voted by a majority of one to force the prime minister to ask for an extension to the Brexit process, in a bid to avoid any no-deal scenario.

The bill, put forward by Labour's Yvette Cooper, was passed by the Commons in just one day.

However, it will need to be approved by the Lords before it becomes law. It would also still be for the EU to decide whether to grant any extension.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47809717

[reece(:]

https://i.imgur.com/D6l4YcT.png

[bots]

Sooner rather than later one of the 27 will say no more time, if that happens we will then have 2 days to agree something or bomb out in an un-orderly (sorry Cherie) fashion

[Sticks]

Sooner rather than later one of the 27 will say no more time, if that happens we will then have 2 days to agree something or bomb out in an un-orderly (sorry Cherie) fashion

Don't you mean leap victoriously from the EU unfettered by any scuzzy deals to a new golden age of prosperity and the sunny golden uplands of No Deal.

Here is an unsavoury thought

As the Withdrawal Agreement enshrined the rights of EU nationals, surely this right to settled status looks very shaky then, so does this not mean that the EU Nationals will have to leave as soon as we break free and their jobs given to British citizens?

It is therefore no large stretch to contend that the result of the referendum gave democratic legitimacy to racism.

I can say this because on the day after the result, I was in Newcastle at the Tyneside Cinema, celebrating their opening in High Friars Lane of Viccolo a new coffee shop / cocktail bar, and the EDL came past in a victory march along Pilgrim Street, Blackett Street, ending up at Monument. The Racists had clearly thought they had won. In the days that followed there was a clear rise in hate crime.

I have run the scenario above to other people locally with people I know, positing the lack of rights for EU nationals if the Withdrawal agreement never passes, and with some is :thumbs: up and lets kick them out now, British Job for British workers etc, and in one instant White British workers. There was no shame in their tone because racism is respectable now and has a democratic mandate, courtesy of David Cameron and his referendum...

It has got very dark...

Can I get back to being satirical and sarcastic now and singing about leaving with no deal?

[Cherie]

Sooner rather than later one of the 27 will say no more time, if that happens we will then have 2 days to agree something or bomb out in an un-orderly (sorry Cherie) fashion

:omgno: not a disorderly Brexit

[arista]

Due to the One Extra Vote
The Labour Cooper Longer Extension
is now being debated in The House Of Lords
they dragged in all the Very Old House of Lords in,
they showed a clip on SkyNewsHD.
Rare a motion goes into the next house so soon.

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-talks-with-theresa-may-useful-but-inconclusive-11683506


Free House Of Lords Live Feed
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3f8960d1-c522-4f7c-9b50-e054516b170a

[arista]

Why did Theresa May ditch a no-deal Brexit?
https://news.sky.com/story/why-did-theresa-may-ditch-a-no-deal-brexit-11683841

For Sticks to read , if he has time?
Sorry its not a bbc link.

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/F063/production/_106293516_met3.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/C953/production/_106293515_tel3.jpg

[reece(:]

1113564220929585153

[Twosugars]

Don't you mean leap victoriously from the EU unfettered by any scuzzy deals to a new golden age of prosperity and the sunny golden uplands of No Deal.

Here is an unsavoury thought

As the Withdrawal Agreement enshrined the rights of EU nationals, surely this right to settled status looks very shaky then, so does this not mean that the EU Nationals will have to leave as soon as we break free and their jobs given to British citizens?

It is therefore no large stretch to contend that the result of the referendum gave democratic legitimacy to racism.

I can say this because on the day after the result, I was in Newcastle at the Tyneside Cinema, celebrating their opening in High Friars Lane of Viccolo a new coffee shop / cocktail bar, and the EDL came past in a victory march along Pilgrim Street, Blackett Street, ending up at Monument. The Racists had clearly thought they had won. In the days that followed there was a clear rise in hate crime.

I have run the scenario above to other people locally with people I know, positing the lack of rights for EU nationals if the Withdrawal agreement never passes, and with some is :thumbs: up and lets kick them out now, British Job for British workers etc, and in one instant White British workers. There was no shame in their tone because racism is respectable now and has a democratic mandate, courtesy of David Cameron and his referendum...

It has got very dark...

Can I get back to being satirical and sarcastic now and singing about leaving with no deal?

Agree, Sticks.
Brexit is a golden opportunity for the far right. Sad times we live in.

[Scarlett.]

I just don't get how any sane person could be for a no deal Brexit? People will DIE, yet others are just like "that sounds fine by me, Brexit means Brexit, lets get out asap". It just doesn't make sense, a no deal Brexit would harm this country deeply.

When you think of the referendum, it was a 52%-48% split, which is a very close result, you then take into account that a sizeable portion of Leave voters were sold on an idea of a Norway type deal, or something along those lines, when you take that into account, there isn't really a majority vote by the public for a hard no deal Brexit. Even the latest YouGov figures show that the majority is against no deal

https://i.imgur.com/P7OmknRl.png

[Sticks]

Why did Theresa May ditch a no-deal Brexit?
https://news.sky.com/story/why-did-theresa-may-ditch-a-no-deal-brexit-11683841

For Sticks to read , if he has time?
Sorry its not a bbc link.

Does not matter what Theresa thinks, the EU are going to refuse any extensions to get rid of a troublesome issue. We leave with no deal next Friday.

[arista]

Does not matter what Theresa thinks, the EU are going to refuse any extensions to get rid of a troublesome issue. We leave with no deal next Friday.


But they do not want a No Deal
as well.
So a Long or Short Extension
will be given next Wednesday,

[The Slim Reaper]

1113827097930280960

[Sticks]

But they do not want a No Deal
as well.
So a Long or Short Extension
will be given next Wednesday,

Don't count on it...

[Twosugars]

Reading views from Europe, there's a growing fatigue with the whole thing and a wish to have it done and over with. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in Euro elections as they planned to redistribute the seats and streamline the parliament.
Not to mention that there's no point of the UK MEPs if the UK leaves as far as the EU budget vote, the EU commission elections etc etc

[arista]

Reading views from Europe, there's a growing fatigue with the whole thing and a wish to have it done and over with. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in Euro elections as they planned to redistribute the seats and streamline the parliament.
Not to mention that there's no point of the UK MEPs if the UK leaves as far as the EU budget vote, the EU commission elections etc etc


Yes The PM does not want any MEP's in the
EU Elections.

The House of Lords are still debating
the Cooper Motion.
Some in there say they will be debating all night?
They need their sleep the old codgers

[Cherie]

1113827097930280960

:joker:

[Twosugars]

Yes The PM does not want any MEP's in the
EU Elections.

The House of Lords are still debating
the Cooper Motion.
Some in there say they will be debating all night?
They need their sleep the old codgers

they're asleep most of the time so

[arista]

they're asleep most of the time so

Yes
but not today


The Lords are saying it was Rushed report.

[The Slim Reaper]

1113721705254596608

[Twosugars]

The tories have lost all credibility as a party of business

[Smithy]

1113721705254596608

:joker::joker:

[Wizard.]

So the only reason No Deal was blocked yesterday is because they let convict Labour MP Fiona vote with her criminal little fingers whilst wearing her tag, it couldn’t get anymore hilarious really.

[Northern Monkey]

And it begins.....


Donald Tusk has offered a year long flextension.


We’re not leaving.

[bots]

And it begins.....


Donald Tusk has offered a year long flextension.


We’re not leaving.

the minimum we will have is a customs union, but like i've said 50 times already, this only covers the 2 year transition period ..... people forget this so often

[user104658]

the minimum we will have is a customs union, but like i've said 50 times already, this only covers the 2 year transition period ..... people forget this so oftenI do find that people seem to be under the impression that whatever is eventually decided (or forced) is going to be etched on stone tablets and locked away in a mystical vault somewhere :think:. Whatever deals are struck (or not) at the point of Brexit (or Nexit :hee: ) are not necessarily - or even likely to be - permanent.

[bots]

30th of June is the new date being requested by our illustrious leader

[Northern Monkey]

I want my scuzzy unfettered golden uplands :fist:

[Northern Monkey]

I think we need to leave


Or remain
But whatever we do.Do it soon :idc:

[Cherie]

So if its end of June, will UK be taking part in the election process...? just leave or say we are staying, I can't be doing with this any more

[Cherie]

I do find that people seem to be under the impression that whatever is eventually decided (or forced) is going to be etched on stone tablets and locked away in a mystical vault somewhere :think:. Whatever deals are struck (or not) at the point of Brexit (or Nexit :hee: ) are not necessarily - or even likely to be - permanent.

of course not, a change of government or party leader will change the whole dynamic again, but by the same token, this crashing out with no deal scenario probably wouldn't end up being that bad, business does and will find a way and new deals even if just temporary arrangement would be struck fairly quickly

[Nicky91]

So if its end of June, will UK be taking part in the election process...? just leave or say we are staying, I can't be doing with this any more

i can't at how it has been taking so damn long


a fitting piece of music for this brexit mess

h4-lKMGII_k

[user104658]

of course not, a change of government or party leader will change the whole dynamic again, but by the same token, this crashing out with no deal scenario probably wouldn't end up being that bad, business does and will find a way and new deals even if just temporary arrangement would be struck fairly quickly

It depends what you mean by "not that bad" I guess... I think it would trigger enough of an economic downturn to result in another 10 years of "austerity measures" and frankly I can't imagine what smaller towns would look like after that. They're already physically crumbling, unable to sustain basic public transport, etc.

[user104658]

So if its end of June, will UK be taking part in the election process...? just leave or say we are staying, I can't be doing with this any more

From what I've read, the plan would be to "try our best" to be out by the end of May and therefore not take part - but that preparation would be made to hold elections if necessary.

[arista]

I think we need to leave


Or remain
But whatever we do.Do it soon :idc:


No The Remain MP's
in every party are fecking it all up.

Meanwhile , EU Tusk says one year
to sort it?
https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tusk-prepared-to-offer-year-long-flextension-on-brexit-11684645

The EU Council president is formally telling officials from member countries to endorse a long extension until 31 March 2020.

[Twosugars]

30th of June is the new date being requested by our illustrious leader

stupid woman! she asked for 30 June last time! what's the point? either ask for a short one if you have a chance of a deal or a long one to renegotiatie :facepalm:

[Twosugars]

No The Remain MP's
in every party are fecking it all up.

Meanwhile , EU Tusk says one year
to sort it?
https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tusk-prepared-to-offer-year-long-flextension-on-brexit-11684645

The EU Council president is formally telling officials from member countries to endorse a long extension until 31 March 2020.

Arista don't manipulate the truth

why only Remain mps are to blame? what about ERG and DUP?

[Nicky91]

stupid woman! she asked for 30 June last time! what's the point? either ask for a short one if you have a chance of a deal or a long one to renegotiatie :facepalm:

it shows what a bad PM May is for UK


btw Bercow was at one of our tv shows for interview the other day

s6XXlwukqLI

to translate it a bit for everyone on here, Ivo Niehe is a veteran tv host here, he travels to many places and interviews celebrities worldwide

''mr speaker'' we call Bercow, we find him funny how he pronounces some words ''Order'' but without the first R

[Twosugars]

''mr speaker'' we call Bercow, we find him funny how he pronounces some words ''Order'' but without the first R

lol, but that's how it sounds, Nicky. In English "r" is often silent.
Though Scots tend to pronounce their r's

[Twosugars]

Number 10 knows that a year-long extension is becoming inevitable. But, instead of accepting that, May has tabled an alternative offer that she must know is extremely likely to be rejected. That will be because she needs cover with Brexiter Tories; if she does end up having to agree to a long extension, she cannot be seen to agree to that without having put up a fight.

^ So playing games as usual. That's why people hate politics and politicians: they never talk and act straightforward.
All this bleeting of "running out of time" yet there's always time to play stupid games

[Nicky91]

lol, but that's how it sounds, Nicky. In English "r" is often silent.
Though Scots tend to pronounce their r's

oh, interesting

[The Slim Reaper]

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-twitter-thread-political-analyst-european-union-united-kingdom-united-states-america-7834846

Leavers could do with having a good read of this. I can't post the article because it's basically a twitter thread

[Nicky91]

1113496116769775618

anyways, something good in the EU our dutch PM Mark Rutte had visited Portugal 2 days ago, meeting with the portuguese president, talks about climate change, relations between Netherlands - Portugal


it was held now mostly also because of what Juncker said about ''strong united europe'' so this is a good initiative from Rutte to try keep our relationships with other european countries strong


he also visited sporting lisbon football team, where a dutch coach marcel keizer works as manager

[reece(:]

Not Mogg revealing we do have all the powers within the EU after ALL! So why leave again?

1114086264024727554

[user104658]

lol, but that's how it sounds, Nicky. In English "r" is often silent.
Though Scots tend to pronounce their r's

I dunno... the way Bercow shouts "order" is pretty funny even compared to other Englishes. "AWW Deeeeeeuuuuh"

[arista]

Not Mogg revealing we do have all the powers within the EU after ALL! So why leave again?

1114086264024727554


Its not a Problem
He is a Back Bencher
Not in the Cabinet.


It kept the Left Wing Host of LBC 10AM
busy for 2 hours........................................

[Twosugars]

Its not a Problem
He is a Back Bencher
Not in the Cabinet.


It kept the Left Wing Host of LBC 10AM
busy for 2 hours........................................

Arista, he's one of the most influential tory politicians atm.
His group has been holding government by their short and curlies for years now.
And here you are saying: just one backbencher, move on, nothing to see here...
that's not the case

[arista]

Arista, he's one of the most influential tory politicians atm.
His group has been holding government by their short and curlies for years now.
And here you are saying: just one backbencher, move on, nothing to see here...
that's not the case


But has No Power.
None of his motions can be made law,


He has a Show on LBC 6PM-7PM Live Fridays only.

[Twosugars]

But has No Power.
None of his motions can be made law,


He has a Show on LBC 6PM-7PM Live Fridays only.

influence=power

[arista]

influence=power


Yes he used to.


But its now its PM and Labour Corbyn.


Nigel Farage MEP LBC Global Radio Mon -Thurs 6PM - 7PM and Sunday 10AM
has better influence-power

[Twosugars]

Yes he used to.


But its now it PM and Labour Corbyn.


Nigel Farage MEP
has better influence-power

she will shaft corbyn after he helps her pass her deal
she'll have to if she wants to keep her party together
with tories is usually party before country, selfish lot they are

[arista]

she will shaft corbyn after he helps her pass her deal
she'll have to if she wants to keep her party together
with tories is usually party before country, selfish lot they are


Sure.
Its all up to her.

Soon she will be Gone
and another Leader will take her place

[bots]

May isn't open to changing the deal, she said that before the talks began

[Brillopad]

she will shaft corbyn after he helps her pass her deal
she'll have to if she wants to keep her party together
with tories is usually party before country, selfish lot they are

And Labour are different how!

[smudgie]

And Labour are different how!

Welcome back Brillo.
Great to see you.:cheer2:

[Brillopad]

Welcome back Brillo.
Great to see you.:cheer2:

Thank you Smudgie - good to be back!

[user104658]

Thank you Smudgie - good to be back!Bye Brillo.

[lime]

May isn't open to changing the deal, she said that before the talks began

But sadly this view is being peddled in the UK..I trully am shocked at times listening to your polliticall programes and the host's either do not understand Sm or CU & worst of all they let them bleat about WTO with no comprehension of how it works.


It's not about May being open to change the deal...She is cute enough to know the EU is not changing...It's not up to her.


Oh and well done to the Spectator for their latest article by Robert Hardman..Sealed it for many in the remaining 27 that if that is the insulting attitude of the UK a No deal is the best deal

[James]

Labour are saying that they have been offered no changes to the political declaration part of the deal, but Downing Street says they have?

One of the big problems now is that Theresa May has said that she is going to resign after the exit day, so what is to stop another Prime Minister changing whatever is agreed later.


Brexit: Government offers 'no change' to deal, says Labour
6 hours ago


The government has not proposed any changes to the PM's Brexit deal during cross-party talks, says shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer.

Meetings have been taking place between Tory and Labour politicians to find a proposal to put to the Commons before an emergency EU summit next week.

But Sir Keir said the government was not "countenancing any change" on the wording of the existing plan.

A Downing Street spokesman said: "We have made serious proposals."

The government was "prepared to pursue changes to the political declaration", a plan for the future relationship with the EU, to "deliver a deal that is acceptable to both sides", the spokesman said.

Extension request

Sir Keir said the government's approach was "disappointing", and it would not consider any changes the "actual wording" of the political declaration. "Compromise requires change," he said.

"We want the talks to continue and we've written in those terms to the government, but we do need change if we're going to compromise."


The UK is currently due to leave the EU on 12 April and, as yet, no withdrawal deal has been approved by MPs.

Theresa May has written to European Council President Donald Tusk to request an extension to 30 June.

But she says if the Commons agrees a deal in time, the UK should be able to leave before European parliamentary elections on 23 May.

Analysis

By Jonathan Blake, BBC political correspondent

Both sides say they are serious about these talks, but there is little to show for that so far.

Perhaps that's no surprise.

After more than two years of negotiations with the EU and months of wrangling in parliament, the idea that the government could sit down with Labour and thrash out a deal that keeps both sides happy in a few days seems optimistic at best.

There appears to be disagreement over what the talks can achieve; changes to the political declaration on the UK's future relationship with the EU, or an additional document to what has already been agreed?

If a deal is done, it may or may not fly. Plenty of Tory MPs are uneasy about working with Labour and the closer ties to the EU it may lead to.

Many Labour MPs want a further referendum regardless of what is agreed - something Jeremy Corbyn has been luke warm on so far.

At this stage a deal looks doubtful. But this is Brexit and stranger things have happened.

Prisons minister Rory Stewart told BBC Radio 4's PM programme that there were "tensions" but there was "quite a lot of life" left in the talks with Labour.

"In truth the positions of the two parties are very, very close and where there's goodwill it should be possible to get this done and get it done relatively quickly," he said.

He insisted that "of course we are prepared to compromise" on the political declaration.

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said: "The sense is that the government has only offered clarifications on what might be possible from the existing documents, rather than adjusting any of their actual proposals in the two documents."

She added that both sides agree the talks are not yet over, but there are no firm commitments for when further discussions might take place.

In case no agreement has been reached by 23 May, the prime minister has said the UK would prepare to field candidates in European parliamentary elections.

BBC Europe editor Katya Adler has been told by a senior EU source that European Council President Donald Tusk will propose a 12-month "flexible" extension to Brexit, with the option of cutting it short if the UK Parliament ratifies a deal.

But French President Emmanuel Macron's office said on Friday that it was "premature" to consider another delay.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47833841

[bots]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it as been May's ploy all along to stick to this path to keep us in the EU rather than leave.

[Cherie]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it as been May's ploy all along to stick to this path to keep us in the EU rather than leave.

Its possible, why go into cross party talks if you have no intention of changing anything

[joeysteele]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it as been May's ploy all along to stick to this path to keep us in the EU rather than leave.

I've kept dismissing that but it has crossed my mind many times, as it seems it has yours too.

That would be some sweet revenge she'd leave as to the ERG.

[Sticks]

France is now set to veto any extension whatsoever

Friday out without a deal
Friday out without a deal
Ee I Adio
Friday out without a deal

:spin:

[arista]

France is now set to veto any extension whatsoever

Friday out without a deal
Friday out without a deal
Ee I Adio
Friday out without a deal

:spin:

But the Macron tried to give another Fixed Date last time
and the EU Leaders stopped them.

[Twosugars]

Atm, France, Belgium and Spain are against the extension

[Sticks]

Atm, France, Belgium and Spain are against the extension

I refer to the ditty I posted some moments ago..

[arista]

Atm, France, Belgium and Spain are against the extension


It can all change on the Special EU Summit
Weds 10th April.

[Cherie]

As a leaver would you like to go out on No Deal Arista, I would have thought that would be your idea of heaven?

[Twosugars]

I refer to the ditty I posted some moments ago..

we should play a game : guess which products will be hit by shortages

[arista]

As a leaver would you like to go out on No Deal Arista, I would have thought that would be your idea of heaven?


Heaven,
has vanished

[Nicky91]

Atm, France, Belgium and Spain are against the extension

and our dutch PM is also doubtful for a longer extension of this


and on our dutch late night news show they did a poll here ''what do you think about brexit''

74% of dutch people who voted in poll are against this mess

and a possible Nexit, people who voted in that poll here 64% was against that

[user104658]

We're leaving without a deal
We're leaving without a deal
Ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Skiiii-Ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Ba-bop-ba-dododododo
We're leaving without a deal.


Did I do this right?

[bots]

We're leaving without a deal
We're leaving without a deal
Ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Skiiii-Ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Ba-bop-ba-dododododo
We're leaving without a deal.
****ers

Did I do this right?

You missed a bit, so i fixed it for you

[The Slim Reaper]

We're leaving without a deal
We're leaving without a deal
Ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Skiiii-Ba-bop-ba-dop-bop...
Ba-bop-ba-dododododo
We're leaving without a deal.


Did I do this right?

Leaving on a jet plane
Now need a visa before we'll be back again?

[reece(:]

Heaven,
has vanished

And hell has come forth

[arista]

And hell has come forth


Yes Parliament falling to bits
They need to Move on out
this year.

And More MP's are remoaners

[Vicky.]

That there is still no ****ing clear plan is absolutely ridiculous.

[arista]

1114421566941614080

[arista]

That there is still no ****ing clear plan is absolutely ridiculous.

There is a Plan
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/4AAA/production/_92241191_mediaitem92241189.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Miller
but That Rich Business Woman
forced Parliament to approve it
(not the numbers to get the vote)
And all Labour want is a General Election.

[Sticks]

From the Wikipedia article it just says she got the requirement for parliament only to approve the triggering of article 50, rather than the ratification of any deals.

[arista]

1114626646869512192

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/Gu1gan23Bqhq-VtBmeB4jA/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/W3U5UKPFT6O9AluszeuV_tel.JPG
Of Course The PM having talks with the Labour Leader
will have a effect.

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/lHWHSgxA8L6cwYSMZ-S4dA/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/XSdUy5fSmrCI0hhYEW5Q_obs.JPG


What we need is a Double Election
So if the First Election creates a Hung Parliament
The Next week a 2nd General Election
which would then get a Leader in 10 Downing Street

That Clever Way was debated on BBC2HD Politics Live
and SkyNewsHD All Out Politics

[Northern Monkey]

If there was a General Election then maybe if we don’t like the outcome we could just campaign for a ‘People’s General Election’ or maybe make a petition asking to revoke the result of the General Election?Or go for a long extension of the current government?
The new democracy :laugh:

[bots]

The only reason for this current mess is that the majority of mp's don't want brexit. If they did it would have been a done deal by now. We can blame May till the cows come home, but she can't really force people who don't want to leave to support her bill. Add to this that labour won't agree to anything that she puts forward, because all they want is a general election. Nothing wrong with that in political terms, but it isn't respecting the result of the referendum

There will have to be a GE at some point, and people will take the opportunity to get MP's that reflect their wishes. I think the days of traditional party allegiances have gone and the potential for catastrophic results are a very real possibility.

[arista]

If there was a General Election then maybe if we don’t like the outcome we could just campaign for a ‘People’s General Election’ or maybe make a petition asking to revoke the result of the General Election?Or go for a long extension of the current government?
The new democracy :laugh:


No that's not going to happen so soon.


One General Election
if it creates another Hung Parliament
The Next Week 2nd Election
would solve it.

[Twosugars]

The only reason for this current mess is that the majority of mp's don't want brexit. If they did it would have been a done deal by now. We can blame May till the cows come home, but she can't really force people who don't want to leave to support her bill. Add to this that labour won't agree to anything that she puts forward, because all they want is a general election. Nothing wrong with that in political terms, but it isn't respecting the result of the referendum

There will have to be a GE at some point, and people will take the opportunity to get MP's that reflect their wishes. I think the days of traditional party allegiances have gone and the potential for catastrophic results are a very real possibility.

Wrong.
What about ERG and DUP? They want brexit.
And don't blame Labour. If she wanted their support she should have consulted with them before she went to negotiate. But she didn't give a **** did she. She has only herself to blame.

[bots]

Wrong.
What about ERG and DUP? They want brexit.
And don't blame Labour. If she wanted their support she should have consulted with them before she went to negotiate. But she didn't give a **** did she. She has only herself to blame.

the erg and the dup are a tiny percentage of mp's, and i do blame labour, they are just as much to blame as any other mp's

[Twosugars]

the erg and the dup are a tiny percentage of mp's, and i do blame labour, they are just as much to blame as any other mp's
but if they voted for her deal she'd get it passed, that's my point.
but they don't want to, so blame them

[Twosugars]

If she was a proper, statesman-like, PM, she should have created a government of national unity when she was elected to lead
brexit is an important enough issue to warrant that
she should have produced a cross-party agreement on red lines, then negotiate and get the deal passed
but she didnt, she preferred to lick the arses of the tory ultras and we see where it got her
they shafted her

[joeysteele]

The Labour Party is the main opposition.
Unless their policies are adopted.
The clue is in the title, they are Her Majesty's Opposition.
To the government.

The person to blame is this useless and unbending Prime Minister.

She inherited as leader an overall majority and still had the extremist DUPs votes to fall back on then too.

She called an election, where she personally preformed abyssmally.
Lost her overall majority and then refused to include all of Parliament in the negotiated deals and agreements

Its no ones fault but hers.

No Party in the election got an endorsed mandate for the brexit issue.
No Party won an overall majority.

The Conservative manifesto was preferred but not endorsed with a mandate.

Theresa May brought that about, by her shocking judgement and timing.
Bad judgement and stubborn uncompromising attitude which she still holds on to now.
Dangerous to the Country.

This is the absolute worst Prime Minister the UK has ever had in my view.
Hopeless and useless.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3YWWp9XoAIQMUA.jpg:large

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1114809943201284096/yk6y8ChC?format=jpg&name=orig

Sign Of The Times

[Sticks]

When we leap victoriously on Friday clear of the EU, unfettered by Scuzzy deals there will be more jobs for British workers.

The withdrawal agreement that will never get passed had the rights for EU citizens. After Friday when we have that glorious No Deal Brexit on WTO terms, No EU citizen will have any right to work in this country and therefore will have to be summarily dismissed from their jobs. Great news then for Brits out of work as they will snap up all the jobs the EU nationals have been doing.

Then with no rights for EU citizens, as the withdrawal agreement died, they could all be deported en mass as surely they will have no right to remain here? I know about this settled status thing, but surely how can they if they have no rights. Even if they can stay, they will have no right to work in the UK.

Oh and we are leaving on Friday with no deal, word from the EU is that a number of countries are going to veto any extension from Friday.

[Cherie]

When we leap victoriously on Friday clear of the EU, unfettered by Scuzzy deals there will be more jobs for British workers.

The withdrawal agreement that will never get passed had the rights for EU citizens. After Friday when we have that glorious No Deal Brexit on WTO terms, No EU citizen will have any right to work in this country and therefore will have to be summarily dismissed from their jobs. Great news then for Brits out of work as they will snap up all the jobs the EU nationals have been doing.

Then with no rights for EU citizens, as the withdrawal agreement died, they could all be deported en mass as surely they will have no right to remain here? I know about this settled status thing, but surely how can they if they have no rights. Even if they can stay, they will have no right to work in the UK.

Oh and we are leaving on Friday with no deal, word from the EU is that a number of countries are going to veto any extension from Friday.

:joker: tell that to this farmer who didnt get his daffs picked in time due to lack of workers


https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornish-daffodils-left-rot-lack-2716754


If Europe vetos it, then they are selling one of their own down the river, ie Ireland

[Sticks]

:joker: tell that to this farmer who didnt get his daffs picked in time due to lack of workers


https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornish-daffodils-left-rot-lack-2716754

Should have hired British workers....

Plenty about.

Another person who does not understand the word Democracy and also spreading the wicked lies of Project Fear that Satan himself would baulk at spreading :nono:


If Europe vetos it, then they are selling one of their own down the river, ie Ireland

Ireland have been read the riot act and told to get ready, probably with razor wire and armed guards, according to the latest intelligence, such as it is... :shocked:

[Cherie]

Should have hired British workers....

Plenty about.

Another person who does not understand the word Democracy and also spreading the wicked lies of Project Fear that Satan himself would baulk at spreading :nono:




Ireland have been read the riot act and told to get ready, probably with razor wire and armed guards, according to the latest intelligence, such as it is... :shocked:

they tried the British don't want to do jobs like that I'm afraid to say

[arista]

Sticks No Deal - Removed
New Tweet

1114891046025084931


Was just shown on SkyNewsHD

[Sticks]

Does not matter what parliament says or what the PM says

The current legal position is that we are leaving the EU on Friday without a deal, end of..

No extension has been granted by the EU, and such an extension is looking likely to be blocked by certain countries who for the moment will remain nameless. (cough Macron)

[arista]

Does not matter what parliament says or what the PM says

The current legal position is that we are leaving the EU on Friday without a deal, end of..

No extension has been granted by the EU, and such an extension is looking likely to be blocked by certain countries who for the moment will remain nameless. (cough Macron)

But on Weds EU Special Summit
and it will get changed
on Thursday.
They are making plans already

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1113904644537896960/QfOrNLVE?format=jpg&name=600x314

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1114954250545782790/WZcLPX22?format=jpg&name=600x314

[reece(:]

Does not matter what parliament says or what the PM says

The current legal position is that we are leaving the EU on Friday without a deal, end of..

No extension has been granted by the EU, and such an extension is looking likely to be blocked by certain countries who for the moment will remain nameless. (cough Macron)
She can still revoke to stop that so :pipe:

[bots]

1114891046025084931


the cozy living room chat works better than her pedestal performances, but its still pretty awful.

[Cherie]

the cozy living room chat works better than her pedestal performances, but its still pretty awful.

the 'chuckle' :omgno:

[bots]

i think the choices will come down to extending and extending until we have a change of government or we revoke or leave without a deal. There just isnt going to be an agreement on a deal.

[The Slim Reaper]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/



It’s nearly three years since I, along with 17. 4 million other Britons, voted for Brexit. Today I have to admit that the Brexit project has gone sour.

Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.

We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.

So I argue, as a Brexiteer, that we need to take a long deep breath. We need to swallow our pride, and think again. Maybe it means rethinking the Brexit decision altogether.

Certainly it means a delay when we can think about it all in a period of calm. Europe is offering us this opportunity. President Tusk is ready to offer a year’s extension. I say: grab it with both hands.

No normal decision
Ask any psychologist when is the worst time to reach a decision.

They agree that it is when you suffer from exhaustion and emotional collapse. Speaking candidly, that is the state of mind in which most of our MPs and cabinet ministers now find themselves.

And now consider this very sombre thought. We are not talking about a normal decision.

There’s zero chance of a sensible Brexit amidst the pandemonium and hysteria at Westminster just now

We are talking about arguably the biggest decision with the most momentous long-term consequences made by any British government since the second world war.

It’s a decision which will not just viscerally impact the lives of our children. But also our children’s children.

And their children too.

Indeed, this decision affects each and every one of us. A clumsily executed Brexit will hit us in terms of lower incomes, lost jobs and industries, worse public services and restricted opportunities.

If we are to leave the European Union we want a sensible Brexit. There’s zero chance of that amidst the pandemonium and hysteria at Westminster just now. MPs are at the end of their tether. The cabinet is harrowed and exhausted. I admire the prime minister, think she’s a hero, and have been one of her strong supporters.

But she’s in the last weeks of her premiership.

As the end has come closer she’s turned into a shapeshifter, like the android assassin in the final stages of the second ‘Terminator’ film, moving desperately from one Brexit model to another.

She’s shown immense fortitude and determination which has won her the respect and admiration of decent people.

But there comes a moment in life when determination alone turns to madness. When the wisest and best move is to give up and think again.

I note that matters have been made much worse by Theresa May’s resignation pledge. As night follows day, the cabinet has embarked on a leadership contest, whose result will be decided by 100,000 Conservative Party members. Tory members are good people, and sometimes (writing as a long serving political correspondent who has covered every Conservative conference since 1992) I feel I know every one of them personally.

However, this means that would-be leadership candidates are not thinking of the interests of the nation at large. They are pandering to a tiny electorate, one furthermore which has been infiltrated by UKIP and does not represent the mass of Tory voters, let alone the British people as a whole.

It is practically certain that the next Tory leader will rip up Mrs May’s deal, however sensible and well-intentioned, and then embark on another two-year-long attritional battle with Europe. Does anybody truly want this? And just think what damage will be done to Britain as a nation.

Take Tusk’s offer
That is why I cannot think of a worse time to make the decision about how to leave Europe. Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, is right. We should grab his kindly offer of a year’s sabbatical.

The economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows

I’ve heard the argument that people want to get it over with and ‘just leave’. That’s reckless, stupid and could inflict incalculable damage. Matters can get an awful lot worse – more unstable and angrier and far more economically damaging – after we leave the EU. And I write this as someone who voted for Brexit.

Economic disaster
If we are honest, we Brexiteers have to admit that the economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows.

The leading Brexiteers argued during the 2016 campaign that the British economy had been held back by membership of the EU and would survive and flourish on its own. That argument is now unsustainable.

Investment-led growth has collapsed, and we need to stare that undeniable fact squarely in the face. Just look at the events of the early months of this year. They fill me – as they should fill every lover of this country – with anxiety and despair.

Nissan is abandoning its plans to build one of its flagship vehicles at its UK site in Sunderland. In January, the electronics giant Sony announced it was moving its headquarters from London to Amsterdam. Panasonic did the same in August last year.

The Japanese financial firms Nomura, Sumitomo Mitsui and Daiwa have all made clear their intention to move to other European cities. Honda is shutting its plant in Swindon. The news from Airbus (a particularly striking example of a successful pan-European manufacturing operation) is depressing.

The trickle of companies announcing plans to leave Britain has turned into a flood. It is becoming unbearably painful to read the financial news. For political reasons many are careful to blame factors other than Brexit. Do we believe them? Or is too much of a coincidence?

The most wounding insult for Brexiteers came with the announcement that Dyson is to shift its headquarters to Singapore. James Dyson is without a doubt an industrial genius. His insistence that Britain could flourish outside the European Union was held up again and again by Brexiteers. James Dyson was our trump card.

He insists that Brexit is nothing to do with his decision. Nevertheless, he joins a long list of rich men who made the case for Brexit but have no intention of living with the consequences of the 2016 referendum result.

Another case in point concerns Jim Ratcliffe, the billionaire industrialist and Brexit apologist, who recently announced that he would be shifting his HQ out of Britain to save tax.

Investment banks in the City are compelling their employees to sign contracts committing them to move to European centres if required. Perhaps we commend them for putting the interests of their clients first, but what does this say about the difficulties financial services in Britain may face? Our economy would be lost without them. The City of London has been one of the motors of British post-war prosperity.

There have been decisions to continue to invest in Britain, and they are welcome. But they are easily outweighed by moves in the opposite direction. The reason for this mass exodus from Britain is easy to understand.

Easy access to Europe was the most important reason why so many important foreign companies chose to invest in this country over the past three or four decades. Investment has come in the shape of both manufacturing and services. The Brexit debate about the customs union vs the single market has revealed how blurred and narrow the distinction between the two has become. They are both massive sources of inward investment and job creation.

Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s

I vividly recall the wave of national elation when Margaret Thatcher brought Japanese car manufacturers to the declining north-east of England in the 1980s. This was a turning point in British industrial history. The car industry – in seemingly terminal collapse since the second world war – switched course, beginning a long, sustained revival. It is now undeniable that Britain’s departure from the EU will be another punctuation mark in the history of British manufacturing, only this time a sombre one.

It has become clear to me, though I’ve been a strong Tory Brexiteer, that Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s.

Indirectly we will all be disadvantaged. The biggest and immediate losers, however, will be working-class people from England’s north-east, who are widely said to support Brexit. Some of them currently enjoy relatively well-paid and secure jobs thanks to foreign investment. A lot of those jobs will slowly vanish.

When hedge-fund managers and the Communist Party see eye-to-eye on any question, it’s time to be concerned

I can’t help noticing that those most vocal in advocating Brexit are two opposing camps. On the one hand traders in financial assets – in particular hedge-fund managers – relish the speculative opportunities created by Brexit volatility. The city state of Singapore is held up as one economic model. The United States is another. I cannot see that there is any popular desire for us to follow the business and employment cultures of such countries.

On the other side we have the far Left, which wants out of the European Union for the exact opposite reason. The Left sees the EU as a capitalist conspiracy because of the protections it offers for private property and the restraints against centralised economic power, in particular state aid. A very substantial faction around Jeremy Corbyn, including former members of the Communist Party, is looking forward to British departure from the EU because they rightly see that the EU prevents the imposition of socialism.

When hedge-fund managers and the Communist Party see eye-to-eye on any question, it’s time to be concerned.

If Brexiteers are clear-eyed about the economic consequences of Brexit, a further question arises. Do they really think that the economic disruption that lies ahead – along with the serious threat to our own union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – is worth it?

Remote elites
I should explain at this point why I voted for Britain to come out of the European Union. Like millions of others I voted for what I thought were honourable principled reasons.

It’s an exaggeration to say the European Union is anti-democratic, but it is not democratic. This leads to a problem. The politicians operating at a national level are accountable for decisions made in Brussels or Berlin for which they have no responsibility. We have seen a great deal of this over the last ten years. In Italy, Greece and other countries politicians have been obliged to enforce brutal programmes of economic austerity whether they like it or not.

It was never as bad as this in Britain, but some of the same contradictions applied. Politicians and ministers were unable to respond to popular concerns about immigration because membership of the European Union meant they were unable to back words with action. When she was home secretary, Theresa May kept promising to combat the relatively high levels of immigration. The reality was she was powerless to do anything about it.

Well done Britain for challenging remote oligarchs based in Brussels

This has had a noxious effect on our politics in a number of ways. Sometimes politicians make promises that they know they are powerless to deliver. At other times they use Brussels as a whipping-boy for unpopular decisions they would have made in any case. This has created a real problem for democracy across Europe. Not just in Britain.

It has also fanned a resentful belief that decisions are actually made by remote and unaccountable elites. This brings politics itself into disrepute and helps explain the rise of anti-establishment, racist and even neo-fascist political parties right across the European Union.

European leaders have not faced up to the tension between a dogmatic political centre, and unruly and indignant dissent from the periphery. They must. The invisible ropes that bind nations to those who rule them have grown ever more taut. Our politicians should wake up and accept they are in danger of snapping.

Part of me, therefore, still feels proud of Brexit. Well done Britain for challenging remote oligarchs based in Brussels.

For me, however, and I am sure for many people, the last 30 months of very bitter and angry debate has cut me in two. I have come to see that this is not just a simple problem of whether or not we are patriots.

Both Remainers and Brexiteers love Britain with equal strength and sincerity. Remainers are not citizens of nowhere, as the Brexiteer insult goes. Nor are Brexiteers ignorant, closet racists, as, disgracefully, some Remainers like to sneer.

Many who voted Leave have a deep – perhaps the deepest – understanding of the communities where they live; and in some of these, everyday life has been spoiled for many by policies imposed on them by a pro-European Westminster elite: policies they never voted for.

The truth is these apparently warring parties, Remain and Leave, represent different elements of the same country and opposite sides of the same coin. Sometimes the war is within our own breasts. I feel it within mine.

The uses of history
The great public debate of the last two years has split families and broken friendships but it has also been a magnificent engagement about what are the ties that bind us as a nation.

The European Union is not a dictatorship

Most of my personal friends are Brexiteers. I think they are – with a few exceptions – decent, patriotic people. They are driven by one great solemn idea, namely that democracy can only exist and flourish within a nation state. For me this argument remains valid – and powerful.

I respect those who say yes, all this is worth it to pursue a dream of independence. It is a noble dream. I share it. It is founded on Britain’s historic role as a proud nation that has repeatedly fought for freedom and liberty. I, too, am conscious of our magnificent history. In the 18th century we stood against the Bourbon dream of European hegemony. We liberated Europe from the Napoleonic domination of continental Europe at the start of the 19th century. And faced up to Nazi Germany in 1940.

But this is not 1939 or the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. History gets made and remade all the time. The European Union is not a dictatorship, as contemptuous of national identity as Napoleonic France. Nor can it be compared to Nazi Germany – a foolish analogy which has become an ugly cliché and displays an unforgivable failure to understand the true horror of recent European history. Nor is it any longer a socialist project as envisaged by Jacques Delors, let alone an evil empire, as some have characterised it.

Of course our looming privations and national isolation would be thoroughly worthwhile if we were confronting such a continental menace. Let others call us ridiculous: we would have a duty to stand alone. But is such language appropriate in a century when all our EU partners are democracies, and none poses the remotest threat of taking up arms against us? Donald Tusk, who will lead the EU heads of government when they meet next week to decide Britain’s future inside the union, is not Hindenberg. Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, is a genial, shrewd elderly man who (like me) enjoys the occasional drink.

I readily accept that the European Union is a dysfunctional body beset by all manner of problems. But the lesson of the last two years is that we are much better off working inside the EU (where we are greatly respected; it was British civil servants, remember, who wrote the rules of the single market) for reform and not as a hostile neighbour.

WTO weakness
This is even more the case because of the new forces which have been driving history in the two years since our Brexit referendum. We are seeing the frightening collapse of the liberal post-war ‘global’ economic order and the emergence in plain sight of a fist-brandishing system of protectionist blocs.

In this new and dangerous environment, it is folly to rely on the World Trade Organization (WTO). Yet the WTO is fundamental to the Brexiteer economic model. Under attack from Donald Trump’s America and Xi Jinping’s China it is losing the ability to ensure a free market of goods and services. In the Trump and Xi world, relying on the WTO to ensure free trade is like relying on the United Nations to protect human rights: all they can offer are well-meaning but impotent resolutions. When Xi met EU leaders on his visit to Europe last week, I suddenly felt alarmed that Britain wasn’t there.

The UK will be weaker and more isolated

I don’t think any country that is small relative to these blocs can rely on the WTO alone. We would be adrift and at the mercy of larger powers as we try to go it alone. It’s not a coincidence that Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade will have almost no replacement trade deals ready for Brexit. (This is in despite of Fox’s claims in 2017, shortly after the triggering of article 50, that the UK would “replicate the 40 free trade agreements before we leave the EU”. )

The EU has just signed a huge, ground-breaking free-trade deal with Japan. If we leave, we must begin complex negotiations to get something as good. Does anyone seriously think we could get something better?

Japanese trade negotiators working on the bilateral Free Trade Agreement with UK are successfully holding out for better terms – for them* – than they could achieve in similar talks with EU. This is evidence, not opinion, that our bilateral trade negotiating power is weaker than our position were we to remain. That the ‘freedom to negotiate free trade deals’, which the Brexiteer Tory MPs in the European Research Group regard as a red line, will lead to greater economic prosperity is a delusion. The UK will be weaker and more isolated.

All that will happen in future is that the UK, post Brexit, will be forced to ask to piggyback on EU trade deals with, say, Japan to secure equal terms. Our only argument will be that the aggregation of our market to the EU’s will add strength. Which is no more than the restoration of the position had we remained in the EU.

That is why no business organisation wants Brexit and why there is no queue of lobbyists in Whitehall screaming to be ‘liberated’ from the EU shackles. In a highly unusual and telling manifestation of unity the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress have written a joint letter to the prime minister expressing a deep-rooted concern about the direction in which the country is headed and urging a change of approach. What exactly is it that Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson know about British business which the TUC and the CBI don’t?

A disunited kingdom
Moreover, there is a second reason for why I have changed my mind. The threat to the United Kingdom. This hits me like a massive punch in the stomach. When I cast my vote in 2016 I believed that the European Union was, if anything, a threat to our own union. Beneath the federal objectives of Brussels bureaucrats lay a routinely denied hostility to individual nation states (though the nation states, including Britain but not only Britain, have always fought back).

I now see a different picture. The “ever closer union” brigade in Brussels do still need to be resisted. That has not changed – though under current arrangements we’re not part of that.

Like almost everybody else I underestimated the importance of the Good Friday Agreement

But I did not foresee that Brexit would threaten the continued existence of our kingdom as a union. I reckoned without the separatists within our nation who would push us apart, and seize on Brexit (as the Scottish nationalists are doing) as a reason to break up.

I did not foresee how the popularity of our union in Northern Ireland might weaken, if ease of interchange with the Republic were threatened. Like almost everybody else I underestimated the importance of the Good Friday Agreement. And we’ve all misunderstood the Irish question, even though it has loomed so large in our history for the last 500 years.

I did not foresee how one of the biggest arguments against Scottish independence – that Europe would not encourage the break-up of its member states by accepting an independent Scotland as a new member – would be lost after Brexit. I failed to understand how the EU is part of the glue which now holds us together in the United Kingdom.

Illegal tactics
My third unhappiness concerns the integrity of some leading Brexiteers. We are learning more and more about the deceit and illegal tactics which accompanied the Leave campaign. Late last month, on a busy news day, Vote Leave dropped its appeal against a £61,000 fine for electoral offences committed during the referendum.

Allegations of illegal overspending are deeply worrying. Britain’s data protection watchdog, the Information Commissioner’s Office, fined Leave. EU and Eldon Insurance, an insurance company run by Leave’s Arron Banks, a total of £120,000 for breaking electoral marketing laws. The National Crime Agency is still investigating suspicions of criminal offences committed by the unofficial Brexit campaign during the referendum. Banks’ alleged links to Russian money are even more worrying. There have not yet been serious enough attempts to answer these questions.

Phrases such as 'vassal state', 'empire' and 'supplicant' do not even remotely characterise our relation with Europe

A false prospectus
The fourth problem is the Brexiteers themselves. Language has become ever shriller. Phrases such as 'vassal state', 'empire' and 'supplicant' have entered the language even though they do not even remotely characterise our relation with Europe. The affection of some of them for Donald Trump is ominous.

It is not too late to think again. Our European neighbours have made it clear that we can reverse Article 50. Of course this would be a moment of national embarrassment.

More seriously, it would quite reasonably be portrayed as a betrayal of the 17. 4 million people who voted to leave Europe in the referendum. This is a huge, powerful point, and having thought about it deeply I would answer as follows.

The Brexiteers made a succession of claims about leaving the EU that have turned out to be untrue. They said it would be quick and easy. They said that a raft of trade deals would be available by the time we left the EU. To quote Liam Fox, “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history. ”

They made exaggerated and false claims about British finances after Brexit. They used illegal methods, and their funding was obscure. If the Brexit referendum had been a general election the Brexiteers would have been chucked out of office.

Of course changing our approach after a year’s mature reflection would need a second referendum. But I don’t believe it would be undemocratic. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since January 2016. So many of the facts have changed that it makes every kind of sense to re-examine the most important decision in decades.

Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour. Call that negative, if you like, but precaution is negative – yet it is part of our kit for survival.

I come back, then, to a proposition that sounds lame – as quiet good sense so often does. Just this, and this alone. Suspending Brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative. How many important decisions in our own lives, too, have had to be taken on such a chilly and unexciting consideration? It’s time for a long pause.

[arista]

Tomorrow The PM is going to the leaders of Germany and France
the day before she is due for the Brussels
Special EU meeting.

She did the same last time
goes to the 2 big leaders before she meets them
in the 27 nation meeting.

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-to-meet-emmanuel-macron-and-angela-merkel-before-emergency-brexit-summit-11687662

1115179011100037120

[Cherie]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/



It’s nearly three years since I, along with 17. 4 million other Britons, voted for Brexit. Today I have to admit that the Brexit project has gone sour.

Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.

We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.

So I argue, as a Brexiteer, that we need to take a long deep breath. We need to swallow our pride, and think again. Maybe it means rethinking the Brexit decision altogether.

Certainly it means a delay when we can think about it all in a period of calm. Europe is offering us this opportunity. President Tusk is ready to offer a year’s extension. I say: grab it with both hands.

No normal decision
Ask any psychologist when is the worst time to reach a decision.

They agree that it is when you suffer from exhaustion and emotional collapse. Speaking candidly, that is the state of mind in which most of our MPs and cabinet ministers now find themselves.

And now consider this very sombre thought. We are not talking about a normal decision.

There’s zero chance of a sensible Brexit amidst the pandemonium and hysteria at Westminster just now

We are talking about arguably the biggest decision with the most momentous long-term consequences made by any British government since the second world war.

It’s a decision which will not just viscerally impact the lives of our children. But also our children’s children.

And their children too.

Indeed, this decision affects each and every one of us. A clumsily executed Brexit will hit us in terms of lower incomes, lost jobs and industries, worse public services and restricted opportunities.

If we are to leave the European Union we want a sensible Brexit. There’s zero chance of that amidst the pandemonium and hysteria at Westminster just now. MPs are at the end of their tether. The cabinet is harrowed and exhausted. I admire the prime minister, think she’s a hero, and have been one of her strong supporters.

But she’s in the last weeks of her premiership.

As the end has come closer she’s turned into a shapeshifter, like the android assassin in the final stages of the second ‘Terminator’ film, moving desperately from one Brexit model to another.

She’s shown immense fortitude and determination which has won her the respect and admiration of decent people.

But there comes a moment in life when determination alone turns to madness. When the wisest and best move is to give up and think again.

I note that matters have been made much worse by Theresa May’s resignation pledge. As night follows day, the cabinet has embarked on a leadership contest, whose result will be decided by 100,000 Conservative Party members. Tory members are good people, and sometimes (writing as a long serving political correspondent who has covered every Conservative conference since 1992) I feel I know every one of them personally.

However, this means that would-be leadership candidates are not thinking of the interests of the nation at large. They are pandering to a tiny electorate, one furthermore which has been infiltrated by UKIP and does not represent the mass of Tory voters, let alone the British people as a whole.

It is practically certain that the next Tory leader will rip up Mrs May’s deal, however sensible and well-intentioned, and then embark on another two-year-long attritional battle with Europe. Does anybody truly want this? And just think what damage will be done to Britain as a nation.

Take Tusk’s offer
That is why I cannot think of a worse time to make the decision about how to leave Europe. Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, is right. We should grab his kindly offer of a year’s sabbatical.

The economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows

I’ve heard the argument that people want to get it over with and ‘just leave’. That’s reckless, stupid and could inflict incalculable damage. Matters can get an awful lot worse – more unstable and angrier and far more economically damaging – after we leave the EU. And I write this as someone who voted for Brexit.

Economic disaster
If we are honest, we Brexiteers have to admit that the economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows.

The leading Brexiteers argued during the 2016 campaign that the British economy had been held back by membership of the EU and would survive and flourish on its own. That argument is now unsustainable.

Investment-led growth has collapsed, and we need to stare that undeniable fact squarely in the face. Just look at the events of the early months of this year. They fill me – as they should fill every lover of this country – with anxiety and despair.

Nissan is abandoning its plans to build one of its flagship vehicles at its UK site in Sunderland. In January, the electronics giant Sony announced it was moving its headquarters from London to Amsterdam. Panasonic did the same in August last year.

The Japanese financial firms Nomura, Sumitomo Mitsui and Daiwa have all made clear their intention to move to other European cities. Honda is shutting its plant in Swindon. The news from Airbus (a particularly striking example of a successful pan-European manufacturing operation) is depressing.

The trickle of companies announcing plans to leave Britain has turned into a flood. It is becoming unbearably painful to read the financial news. For political reasons many are careful to blame factors other than Brexit. Do we believe them? Or is too much of a coincidence?

The most wounding insult for Brexiteers came with the announcement that Dyson is to shift its headquarters to Singapore. James Dyson is without a doubt an industrial genius. His insistence that Britain could flourish outside the European Union was held up again and again by Brexiteers. James Dyson was our trump card.

He insists that Brexit is nothing to do with his decision. Nevertheless, he joins a long list of rich men who made the case for Brexit but have no intention of living with the consequences of the 2016 referendum result.

Another case in point concerns Jim Ratcliffe, the billionaire industrialist and Brexit apologist, who recently announced that he would be shifting his HQ out of Britain to save tax.

Investment banks in the City are compelling their employees to sign contracts committing them to move to European centres if required. Perhaps we commend them for putting the interests of their clients first, but what does this say about the difficulties financial services in Britain may face? Our economy would be lost without them. The City of London has been one of the motors of British post-war prosperity.

There have been decisions to continue to invest in Britain, and they are welcome. But they are easily outweighed by moves in the opposite direction. The reason for this mass exodus from Britain is easy to understand.

Easy access to Europe was the most important reason why so many important foreign companies chose to invest in this country over the past three or four decades. Investment has come in the shape of both manufacturing and services. The Brexit debate about the customs union vs the single market has revealed how blurred and narrow the distinction between the two has become. They are both massive sources of inward investment and job creation.

Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s

I vividly recall the wave of national elation when Margaret Thatcher brought Japanese car manufacturers to the declining north-east of England in the 1980s. This was a turning point in British industrial history. The car industry – in seemingly terminal collapse since the second world war – switched course, beginning a long, sustained revival. It is now undeniable that Britain’s departure from the EU will be another punctuation mark in the history of British manufacturing, only this time a sombre one.

It has become clear to me, though I’ve been a strong Tory Brexiteer, that Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s.

Indirectly we will all be disadvantaged. The biggest and immediate losers, however, will be working-class people from England’s north-east, who are widely said to support Brexit. Some of them currently enjoy relatively well-paid and secure jobs thanks to foreign investment. A lot of those jobs will slowly vanish.

When hedge-fund managers and the Communist Party see eye-to-eye on any question, it’s time to be concerned

I can’t help noticing that those most vocal in advocating Brexit are two opposing camps. On the one hand traders in financial assets – in particular hedge-fund managers – relish the speculative opportunities created by Brexit volatility. The city state of Singapore is held up as one economic model. The United States is another. I cannot see that there is any popular desire for us to follow the business and employment cultures of such countries.

On the other side we have the far Left, which wants out of the European Union for the exact opposite reason. The Left sees the EU as a capitalist conspiracy because of the protections it offers for private property and the restraints against centralised economic power, in particular state aid. A very substantial faction around Jeremy Corbyn, including former members of the Communist Party, is looking forward to British departure from the EU because they rightly see that the EU prevents the imposition of socialism.

When hedge-fund managers and the Communist Party see eye-to-eye on any question, it’s time to be concerned.

If Brexiteers are clear-eyed about the economic consequences of Brexit, a further question arises. Do they really think that the economic disruption that lies ahead – along with the serious threat to our own union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – is worth it?

Remote elites
I should explain at this point why I voted for Britain to come out of the European Union. Like millions of others I voted for what I thought were honourable principled reasons.

It’s an exaggeration to say the European Union is anti-democratic, but it is not democratic. This leads to a problem. The politicians operating at a national level are accountable for decisions made in Brussels or Berlin for which they have no responsibility. We have seen a great deal of this over the last ten years. In Italy, Greece and other countries politicians have been obliged to enforce brutal programmes of economic austerity whether they like it or not.

It was never as bad as this in Britain, but some of the same contradictions applied. Politicians and ministers were unable to respond to popular concerns about immigration because membership of the European Union meant they were unable to back words with action. When she was home secretary, Theresa May kept promising to combat the relatively high levels of immigration. The reality was she was powerless to do anything about it.

Well done Britain for challenging remote oligarchs based in Brussels

This has had a noxious effect on our politics in a number of ways. Sometimes politicians make promises that they know they are powerless to deliver. At other times they use Brussels as a whipping-boy for unpopular decisions they would have made in any case. This has created a real problem for democracy across Europe. Not just in Britain.

It has also fanned a resentful belief that decisions are actually made by remote and unaccountable elites. This brings politics itself into disrepute and helps explain the rise of anti-establishment, racist and even neo-fascist political parties right across the European Union.

European leaders have not faced up to the tension between a dogmatic political centre, and unruly and indignant dissent from the periphery. They must. The invisible ropes that bind nations to those who rule them have grown ever more taut. Our politicians should wake up and accept they are in danger of snapping.

Part of me, therefore, still feels proud of Brexit. Well done Britain for challenging remote oligarchs based in Brussels.

For me, however, and I am sure for many people, the last 30 months of very bitter and angry debate has cut me in two. I have come to see that this is not just a simple problem of whether or not we are patriots.

Both Remainers and Brexiteers love Britain with equal strength and sincerity. Remainers are not citizens of nowhere, as the Brexiteer insult goes. Nor are Brexiteers ignorant, closet racists, as, disgracefully, some Remainers like to sneer.

Many who voted Leave have a deep – perhaps the deepest – understanding of the communities where they live; and in some of these, everyday life has been spoiled for many by policies imposed on them by a pro-European Westminster elite: policies they never voted for.

The truth is these apparently warring parties, Remain and Leave, represent different elements of the same country and opposite sides of the same coin. Sometimes the war is within our own breasts. I feel it within mine.

The uses of history
The great public debate of the last two years has split families and broken friendships but it has also been a magnificent engagement about what are the ties that bind us as a nation.

The European Union is not a dictatorship

Most of my personal friends are Brexiteers. I think they are – with a few exceptions – decent, patriotic people. They are driven by one great solemn idea, namely that democracy can only exist and flourish within a nation state. For me this argument remains valid – and powerful.

I respect those who say yes, all this is worth it to pursue a dream of independence. It is a noble dream. I share it. It is founded on Britain’s historic role as a proud nation that has repeatedly fought for freedom and liberty. I, too, am conscious of our magnificent history. In the 18th century we stood against the Bourbon dream of European hegemony. We liberated Europe from the Napoleonic domination of continental Europe at the start of the 19th century. And faced up to Nazi Germany in 1940.

But this is not 1939 or the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. History gets made and remade all the time. The European Union is not a dictatorship, as contemptuous of national identity as Napoleonic France. Nor can it be compared to Nazi Germany – a foolish analogy which has become an ugly cliché and displays an unforgivable failure to understand the true horror of recent European history. Nor is it any longer a socialist project as envisaged by Jacques Delors, let alone an evil empire, as some have characterised it.

Of course our looming privations and national isolation would be thoroughly worthwhile if we were confronting such a continental menace. Let others call us ridiculous: we would have a duty to stand alone. But is such language appropriate in a century when all our EU partners are democracies, and none poses the remotest threat of taking up arms against us? Donald Tusk, who will lead the EU heads of government when they meet next week to decide Britain’s future inside the union, is not Hindenberg. Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, is a genial, shrewd elderly man who (like me) enjoys the occasional drink.

I readily accept that the European Union is a dysfunctional body beset by all manner of problems. But the lesson of the last two years is that we are much better off working inside the EU (where we are greatly respected; it was British civil servants, remember, who wrote the rules of the single market) for reform and not as a hostile neighbour.

WTO weakness
This is even more the case because of the new forces which have been driving history in the two years since our Brexit referendum. We are seeing the frightening collapse of the liberal post-war ‘global’ economic order and the emergence in plain sight of a fist-brandishing system of protectionist blocs.

In this new and dangerous environment, it is folly to rely on the World Trade Organization (WTO). Yet the WTO is fundamental to the Brexiteer economic model. Under attack from Donald Trump’s America and Xi Jinping’s China it is losing the ability to ensure a free market of goods and services. In the Trump and Xi world, relying on the WTO to ensure free trade is like relying on the United Nations to protect human rights: all they can offer are well-meaning but impotent resolutions. When Xi met EU leaders on his visit to Europe last week, I suddenly felt alarmed that Britain wasn’t there.

The UK will be weaker and more isolated

I don’t think any country that is small relative to these blocs can rely on the WTO alone. We would be adrift and at the mercy of larger powers as we try to go it alone. It’s not a coincidence that Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade will have almost no replacement trade deals ready for Brexit. (This is in despite of Fox’s claims in 2017, shortly after the triggering of article 50, that the UK would “replicate the 40 free trade agreements before we leave the EU”. )

The EU has just signed a huge, ground-breaking free-trade deal with Japan. If we leave, we must begin complex negotiations to get something as good. Does anyone seriously think we could get something better?

Japanese trade negotiators working on the bilateral Free Trade Agreement with UK are successfully holding out for better terms – for them* – than they could achieve in similar talks with EU. This is evidence, not opinion, that our bilateral trade negotiating power is weaker than our position were we to remain. That the ‘freedom to negotiate free trade deals’, which the Brexiteer Tory MPs in the European Research Group regard as a red line, will lead to greater economic prosperity is a delusion. The UK will be weaker and more isolated.

All that will happen in future is that the UK, post Brexit, will be forced to ask to piggyback on EU trade deals with, say, Japan to secure equal terms. Our only argument will be that the aggregation of our market to the EU’s will add strength. Which is no more than the restoration of the position had we remained in the EU.

That is why no business organisation wants Brexit and why there is no queue of lobbyists in Whitehall screaming to be ‘liberated’ from the EU shackles. In a highly unusual and telling manifestation of unity the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress have written a joint letter to the prime minister expressing a deep-rooted concern about the direction in which the country is headed and urging a change of approach. What exactly is it that Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson know about British business which the TUC and the CBI don’t?

A disunited kingdom
Moreover, there is a second reason for why I have changed my mind. The threat to the United Kingdom. This hits me like a massive punch in the stomach. When I cast my vote in 2016 I believed that the European Union was, if anything, a threat to our own union. Beneath the federal objectives of Brussels bureaucrats lay a routinely denied hostility to individual nation states (though the nation states, including Britain but not only Britain, have always fought back).

I now see a different picture. The “ever closer union” brigade in Brussels do still need to be resisted. That has not changed – though under current arrangements we’re not part of that.

Like almost everybody else I underestimated the importance of the Good Friday Agreement

But I did not foresee that Brexit would threaten the continued existence of our kingdom as a union. I reckoned without the separatists within our nation who would push us apart, and seize on Brexit (as the Scottish nationalists are doing) as a reason to break up.

I did not foresee how the popularity of our union in Northern Ireland might weaken, if ease of interchange with the Republic were threatened. Like almost everybody else I underestimated the importance of the Good Friday Agreement. And we’ve all misunderstood the Irish question, even though it has loomed so large in our history for the last 500 years.

I did not foresee how one of the biggest arguments against Scottish independence – that Europe would not encourage the break-up of its member states by accepting an independent Scotland as a new member – would be lost after Brexit. I failed to understand how the EU is part of the glue which now holds us together in the United Kingdom.

Illegal tactics
My third unhappiness concerns the integrity of some leading Brexiteers. We are learning more and more about the deceit and illegal tactics which accompanied the Leave campaign. Late last month, on a busy news day, Vote Leave dropped its appeal against a £61,000 fine for electoral offences committed during the referendum.

Allegations of illegal overspending are deeply worrying. Britain’s data protection watchdog, the Information Commissioner’s Office, fined Leave. EU and Eldon Insurance, an insurance company run by Leave’s Arron Banks, a total of £120,000 for breaking electoral marketing laws. The National Crime Agency is still investigating suspicions of criminal offences committed by the unofficial Brexit campaign during the referendum. Banks’ alleged links to Russian money are even more worrying. There have not yet been serious enough attempts to answer these questions.

Phrases such as 'vassal state', 'empire' and 'supplicant' do not even remotely characterise our relation with Europe

A false prospectus
The fourth problem is the Brexiteers themselves. Language has become ever shriller. Phrases such as 'vassal state', 'empire' and 'supplicant' have entered the language even though they do not even remotely characterise our relation with Europe. The affection of some of them for Donald Trump is ominous.

It is not too late to think again. Our European neighbours have made it clear that we can reverse Article 50. Of course this would be a moment of national embarrassment.

More seriously, it would quite reasonably be portrayed as a betrayal of the 17. 4 million people who voted to leave Europe in the referendum. This is a huge, powerful point, and having thought about it deeply I would answer as follows.

The Brexiteers made a succession of claims about leaving the EU that have turned out to be untrue. They said it would be quick and easy. They said that a raft of trade deals would be available by the time we left the EU. To quote Liam Fox, “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history. ”

They made exaggerated and false claims about British finances after Brexit. They used illegal methods, and their funding was obscure. If the Brexit referendum had been a general election the Brexiteers would have been chucked out of office.

Of course changing our approach after a year’s mature reflection would need a second referendum. But I don’t believe it would be undemocratic. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since January 2016. So many of the facts have changed that it makes every kind of sense to re-examine the most important decision in decades.

Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour. Call that negative, if you like, but precaution is negative – yet it is part of our kit for survival.

I come back, then, to a proposition that sounds lame – as quiet good sense so often does. Just this, and this alone. Suspending Brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative. How many important decisions in our own lives, too, have had to be taken on such a chilly and unexciting consideration? It’s time for a long pause.

:clap1:

[Nicky91]

1114952303784677376

[arista]

:clap1:


Yes
but the PM is going ahead with Another Extension.

[Sticks]

Yes
but the PM is going ahead with Another Extension.

Which Macron is vetoing

Out with no deal by Friday...

[arista]

Which Macron is vetoing

Out with no deal by Friday...



Hold your horse
On Weds he will change his
mind with the 27 nations of the EU

[Twosugars]

.EU would refuse trade talks with UK after no-deal unless backstop addressed, says Barnier


Speaking in Dublin, Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, also said that, if the UK were to leave without a deal, the EU would refuse to open trade talks until it got assurances on the Irish border, on citizens’ rights and money.

I have said before the backstop is currently the only solution we have found to maintain the status quo on the island of Ireland.

If the UK were to leave the EU without a deal, let me be very, very clear. We would not discuss anything with the UK until there is an agreement for Ireland and Northern Ireland, as well as for citizens’ rights and the financial settlement.

These are the three issues covered by the withdrawal agreement. So, in other words, Barnier is saying that even if the UK were to leave without signing the withdrawal agreement, it would have to accepted the pledges in that agreement, including on the backstop, if it ever wanted a trade deal with the EU.

Barnier and his fellow EU leaders have made this point before, but perhaps not as bluntly as Barnier did just now.

Some Brexiters think that it would be acceptable for the UK to trade permanently with the EU on WTO terms. But, in the event of a no-deal scenario, most Brexiters would want to UK and the EU to strike a free trade deal, which is why the Barnier threat is significant.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1115234291183771648/7DBmTfGc?format=jpg&name=orig


Sure Mark
But you had your Chance to Vote
her out
It Failed,
this time on your Wednesday vote
YOU ain't got the numbers.

[arista]

"EU would refuse trade talks with UK after no-deal unless backstop addressed, says Barnier"

Of Course
But the PM is not going to do a "no deal"

[bots]

I think the UK will be told quite bluntly that any extension would be conditional on us providing a new set of mep's. That being the case, they will be given a further years extension. That opens the door for a GE or another referendum, either of which are quite likely now. If we do go down the extension route rather than a no deal or revoke route, then I think May will be gone. Friday could be her last day

[Twosugars]

.Daily Mail columnist Peter Oborne says he's changed his mind and now thinks Brexit could be 'a disaster'

Since the 2016 referendum there been some evidence that public opinion on Brexit is shifting, but it has not been dramatic and none of the key protagonists has admitted they made a mistake. Some Tories who voted remain have said they would now vote leave, but that tends to be an argument about honouring the result of the first referendum in a second one, rather than an admission of error (and in some cases it’s stance not wholly unrelated to leadership ambitions).

That is why’s Peter Oborne’s article today saying it is time for Brexiters to think again is so interesting. Oborne is a very prominent Tory commentator. He was political editor of the Spectator when Boris Johnson was editor, was chief political commentator at the Daily Telegraph and now writes a column for the Daily Mail. He was an enthusiastic leave voter. But now, in an article for openDemocracy, he says it is time to think again.

Here’s an extract.

It’s nearly three years since I, along with 17. 4 million other Britons, voted for Brexit. Today I have to admit that the Brexit project has gone sour.

Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.

We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.

So I argue, as a Brexiteer, that we need to take a long deep breath. We need to swallow our pride, and think again. Maybe it means rethinking the Brexit decision altogether ...

If we are honest, we Brexiteers have to admit that the economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows ...

It has become clear to me, though I’ve been a strong Tory Brexiteer, that Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s.

[arista]

I think the UK will be told quite bluntly that any extension would be conditional on us providing a new set of mep's. That being the case, they will be given a further years extension. That opens the door for a GE or another referendum, either of which are quite likely now. If we do go down the extension route rather than a no deal or revoke route, then I think May will be gone. Friday could be her last day

Yes very Possible.

But how do you get her Evicted from 10 Downing Street?

[user104658]

.

If you read the whole thing, he also slips in there an admittance that he's thought it was a disaster for some time but was still pretending that it was all good out of stubbornness and pride, and that he believes that many other politicians and journalists are doing the same.

[user104658]

Yes very Possible.

But how do you get her Evicted from 10 Downing Street?

https://media2.giphy.com/media/6IY5xZB2ZqsBq/giphy.gif

[Twosugars]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/6IY5xZB2ZqsBq/giphy.gif
:joker:
here is your answer Arista

[Twosugars]

If you read the whole thing, he also slips in there an admittance that he's thought it was a disaster for some time but was still pretending that it was all good out of stubbornness and pride, and that he believes that many other politicians and journalists are doing the same.

Totally true I bet

[arista]

Conservative - Labour
Confirmed back in talks this evening.

[Twosugars]

bet Corbyn will betray remainers

[arista]

1115294345157140481



Long Extension

[Cherie]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/6IY5xZB2ZqsBq/giphy.gif

:joker:

[Cherie]

1115294345157140481



Long Extension

:hehe:

[arista]

:joker:
here is your answer Arista

Sure TS
Very Funny


But How do we get her Out of Power?

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/ad_img/1115229261063913472/C7OgLoze?format=jpg&name=orig

[Twosugars]

That Peter Oborne's article is worth quoting in full


I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again

If we are to leave the European Union we want a sensible Brexit. There’s no chance of that just now.

Peter Oborne
7 April 2019



It’s nearly three years since I, along with 17. 4 million other Britons, voted for Brexit. Today I have to admit that the Brexit project has gone sour.

Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs.

We Brexiteers would be wise to acknowledge all this. It’s past time we did. We need to acknowledge, too, that that we will never be forgiven if and when Brexit goes wrong. Future generations will look back at what we did and damn us.

So I argue, as a Brexiteer, that we need to take a long deep breath. We need to swallow our pride, and think again. Maybe it means rethinking the Brexit decision altogether.

Certainly it means a delay when we can think about it all in a period of calm. Europe is offering us this opportunity. President Tusk is ready to offer a year’s extension. I say: grab it with both hands.

No normal decision
Ask any psychologist when is the worst time to reach a decision.

They agree that it is when you suffer from exhaustion and emotional collapse. Speaking candidly, that is the state of mind in which most of our MPs and cabinet ministers now find themselves.

And now consider this very sombre thought. We are not talking about a normal decision.

There’s zero chance of a sensible Brexit amidst the pandemonium and hysteria at Westminster just now

We are talking about arguably the biggest decision with the most momentous long-term consequences made by any British government since the second world war.

It’s a decision which will not just viscerally impact the lives of our children. But also our children’s children.

And their children too.

Indeed, this decision affects each and every one of us. A clumsily executed Brexit will hit us in terms of lower incomes, lost jobs and industries, worse public services and restricted opportunities.

If we are to leave the European Union we want a sensible Brexit. There’s zero chance of that amidst the pandemonium and hysteria at Westminster just now. MPs are at the end of their tether. The cabinet is harrowed and exhausted. I admire the prime minister, think she’s a hero, and have been one of her strong supporters.

But she’s in the last weeks of her premiership.

As the end has come closer she’s turned into a shapeshifter, like the android assassin in the final stages of the second ‘Terminator’ film, moving desperately from one Brexit model to another.

She’s shown immense fortitude and determination which has won her the respect and admiration of decent people.

But there comes a moment in life when determination alone turns to madness. When the wisest and best move is to give up and think again.

I note that matters have been made much worse by Theresa May’s resignation pledge. As night follows day, the cabinet has embarked on a leadership contest, whose result will be decided by 100,000 Conservative Party members. Tory members are good people, and sometimes (writing as a long serving political correspondent who has covered every Conservative conference since 1992) I feel I know every one of them personally.

However, this means that would-be leadership candidates are not thinking of the interests of the nation at large. They are pandering to a tiny electorate, one furthermore which has been infiltrated by UKIP and does not represent the mass of Tory voters, let alone the British people as a whole.

It is practically certain that the next Tory leader will rip up Mrs May’s deal, however sensible and well-intentioned, and then embark on another two-year-long attritional battle with Europe. Does anybody truly want this? And just think what damage will be done to Britain as a nation.

Take Tusk’s offer
That is why I cannot think of a worse time to make the decision about how to leave Europe. Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, is right. We should grab his kindly offer of a year’s sabbatical.

The economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows

I’ve heard the argument that people want to get it over with and ‘just leave’. That’s reckless, stupid and could inflict incalculable damage. Matters can get an awful lot worse – more unstable and angrier and far more economically damaging – after we leave the EU. And I write this as someone who voted for Brexit.

Economic disaster
If we are honest, we Brexiteers have to admit that the economic arguments for Brexit have been destroyed by a series of shattering blows.

The leading Brexiteers argued during the 2016 campaign that the British economy had been held back by membership of the EU and would survive and flourish on its own. That argument is now unsustainable.

Investment-led growth has collapsed, and we need to stare that undeniable fact squarely in the face. Just look at the events of the early months of this year. They fill me – as they should fill every lover of this country – with anxiety and despair.

Nissan is abandoning its plans to build one of its flagship vehicles at its UK site in Sunderland. In January, the electronics giant Sony announced it was moving its headquarters from London to Amsterdam. Panasonic did the same in August last year.

The Japanese financial firms Nomura, Sumitomo Mitsui and Daiwa have all made clear their intention to move to other European cities. Honda is shutting its plant in Swindon. The news from Airbus (a particularly striking example of a successful pan-European manufacturing operation) is depressing.

The trickle of companies announcing plans to leave Britain has turned into a flood. It is becoming unbearably painful to read the financial news. For political reasons many are careful to blame factors other than Brexit. Do we believe them? Or is too much of a coincidence?

The most wounding insult for Brexiteers came with the announcement that Dyson is to shift its headquarters to Singapore. James Dyson is without a doubt an industrial genius. His insistence that Britain could flourish outside the European Union was held up again and again by Brexiteers. James Dyson was our trump card.

He insists that Brexit is nothing to do with his decision. Nevertheless, he joins a long list of rich men who made the case for Brexit but have no intention of living with the consequences of the 2016 referendum result.

Another case in point concerns Jim Ratcliffe, the billionaire industrialist and Brexit apologist, who recently announced that he would be shifting his HQ out of Britain to save tax.

Investment banks in the City are compelling their employees to sign contracts committing them to move to European centres if required. Perhaps we commend them for putting the interests of their clients first, but what does this say about the difficulties financial services in Britain may face? Our economy would be lost without them. The City of London has been one of the motors of British post-war prosperity.

There have been decisions to continue to invest in Britain, and they are welcome. But they are easily outweighed by moves in the opposite direction. The reason for this mass exodus from Britain is easy to understand.

Easy access to Europe was the most important reason why so many important foreign companies chose to invest in this country over the past three or four decades. Investment has come in the shape of both manufacturing and services. The Brexit debate about the customs union vs the single market has revealed how blurred and narrow the distinction between the two has become. They are both massive sources of inward investment and job creation.

Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s

I vividly recall the wave of national elation when Margaret Thatcher brought Japanese car manufacturers to the declining north-east of England in the 1980s. This was a turning point in British industrial history. The car industry – in seemingly terminal collapse since the second world war – switched course, beginning a long, sustained revival. It is now undeniable that Britain’s departure from the EU will be another punctuation mark in the history of British manufacturing, only this time a sombre one.

It has become clear to me, though I’ve been a strong Tory Brexiteer, that Britain’s departure from the EU will be as great a disaster for our country as the over-mighty unions were in the 1960s and 1970s.

Indirectly we will all be disadvantaged. The biggest and immediate losers, however, will be working-class people from England’s north-east, who are widely said to support Brexit. Some of them currently enjoy relatively well-paid and secure jobs thanks to foreign investment. A lot of those jobs will slowly vanish.

When hedge-fund managers and the Communist Party see eye-to-eye on any question, it’s time to be concerned

I can’t help noticing that those most vocal in advocating Brexit are two opposing camps. On the one hand traders in financial assets – in particular hedge-fund managers – relish the speculative opportunities created by Brexit volatility. The city state of Singapore is held up as one economic model. The United States is another. I cannot see that there is any popular desire for us to follow the business and employment cultures of such countries.

On the other side we have the far Left, which wants out of the European Union for the exact opposite reason. The Left sees the EU as a capitalist conspiracy because of the protections it offers for private property and the restraints against centralised economic power, in particular state aid. A very substantial faction around Jeremy Corbyn, including former members of the Communist Party, is looking forward to British departure from the EU because they rightly see that the EU prevents the imposition of socialism.

When hedge-fund managers and the Communist Party see eye-to-eye on any question, it’s time to be concerned.

If Brexiteers are clear-eyed about the economic consequences of Brexit, a further question arises. Do they really think that the economic disruption that lies ahead – along with the serious threat to our own union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – is worth it?

Remote elites
I should explain at this point why I voted for Britain to come out of the European Union. Like millions of others I voted for what I thought were honourable principled reasons.

It’s an exaggeration to say the European Union is anti-democratic, but it is not democratic. This leads to a problem. The politicians operating at a national level are accountable for decisions made in Brussels or Berlin for which they have no responsibility. We have seen a great deal of this over the last ten years. In Italy, Greece and other countries politicians have been obliged to enforce brutal programmes of economic austerity whether they like it or not.

It was never as bad as this in Britain, but some of the same contradictions applied. Politicians and ministers were unable to respond to popular concerns about immigration because membership of the European Union meant they were unable to back words with action. When she was home secretary, Theresa May kept promising to combat the relatively high levels of immigration. The reality was she was powerless to do anything about it.

Well done Britain for challenging remote oligarchs based in Brussels

This has had a noxious effect on our politics in a number of ways. Sometimes politicians make promises that they know they are powerless to deliver. At other times they use Brussels as a whipping-boy for unpopular decisions they would have made in any case. This has created a real problem for democracy across Europe. Not just in Britain.

It has also fanned a resentful belief that decisions are actually made by remote and unaccountable elites. This brings politics itself into disrepute and helps explain the rise of anti-establishment, racist and even neo-fascist political parties right across the European Union.

European leaders have not faced up to the tension between a dogmatic political centre, and unruly and indignant dissent from the periphery. They must. The invisible ropes that bind nations to those who rule them have grown ever more taut. Our politicians should wake up and accept they are in danger of snapping.

Part of me, therefore, still feels proud of Brexit. Well done Britain for challenging remote oligarchs based in Brussels.

For me, however, and I am sure for many people, the last 30 months of very bitter and angry debate has cut me in two. I have come to see that this is not just a simple problem of whether or not we are patriots.

Both Remainers and Brexiteers love Britain with equal strength and sincerity. Remainers are not citizens of nowhere, as the Brexiteer insult goes. Nor are Brexiteers ignorant, closet racists, as, disgracefully, some Remainers like to sneer.

Many who voted Leave have a deep – perhaps the deepest – understanding of the communities where they live; and in some of these, everyday life has been spoiled for many by policies imposed on them by a pro-European Westminster elite: policies they never voted for.

The truth is these apparently warring parties, Remain and Leave, represent different elements of the same country and opposite sides of the same coin. Sometimes the war is within our own breasts. I feel it within mine.

The uses of history
The great public debate of the last two years has split families and broken friendships but it has also been a magnificent engagement about what are the ties that bind us as a nation.

The European Union is not a dictatorship

Most of my personal friends are Brexiteers. I think they are – with a few exceptions – decent, patriotic people. They are driven by one great solemn idea, namely that democracy can only exist and flourish within a nation state. For me this argument remains valid – and powerful.

I respect those who say yes, all this is worth it to pursue a dream of independence. It is a noble dream. I share it. It is founded on Britain’s historic role as a proud nation that has repeatedly fought for freedom and liberty. I, too, am conscious of our magnificent history. In the 18th century we stood against the Bourbon dream of European hegemony. We liberated Europe from the Napoleonic domination of continental Europe at the start of the 19th century. And faced up to Nazi Germany in 1940.

But this is not 1939 or the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. History gets made and remade all the time. The European Union is not a dictatorship, as contemptuous of national identity as Napoleonic France. Nor can it be compared to Nazi Germany – a foolish analogy which has become an ugly cliché and displays an unforgivable failure to understand the true horror of recent European history. Nor is it any longer a socialist project as envisaged by Jacques Delors, let alone an evil empire, as some have characterised it.

Of course our looming privations and national isolation would be thoroughly worthwhile if we were confronting such a continental menace. Let others call us ridiculous: we would have a duty to stand alone. But is such language appropriate in a century when all our EU partners are democracies, and none poses the remotest threat of taking up arms against us? Donald Tusk, who will lead the EU heads of government when they meet next week to decide Britain’s future inside the union, is not Hindenberg. Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, is a genial, shrewd elderly man who (like me) enjoys the occasional drink.

I readily accept that the European Union is a dysfunctional body beset by all manner of problems. But the lesson of the last two years is that we are much better off working inside the EU (where we are greatly respected; it was British civil servants, remember, who wrote the rules of the single market) for reform and not as a hostile neighbour.

WTO weakness
This is even more the case because of the new forces which have been driving history in the two years since our Brexit referendum. We are seeing the frightening collapse of the liberal post-war ‘global’ economic order and the emergence in plain sight of a fist-brandishing system of protectionist blocs.

In this new and dangerous environment, it is folly to rely on the World Trade Organization (WTO). Yet the WTO is fundamental to the Brexiteer economic model. Under attack from Donald Trump’s America and Xi Jinping’s China it is losing the ability to ensure a free market of goods and services. In the Trump and Xi world, relying on the WTO to ensure free trade is like relying on the United Nations to protect human rights: all they can offer are well-meaning but impotent resolutions. When Xi met EU leaders on his visit to Europe last week, I suddenly felt alarmed that Britain wasn’t there.

The UK will be weaker and more isolated

I don’t think any country that is small relative to these blocs can rely on the WTO alone. We would be adrift and at the mercy of larger powers as we try to go it alone. It’s not a coincidence that Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade will have almost no replacement trade deals ready for Brexit. (This is in despite of Fox’s claims in 2017, shortly after the triggering of article 50, that the UK would “replicate the 40 free trade agreements before we leave the EU”. )

The EU has just signed a huge, ground-breaking free-trade deal with Japan. If we leave, we must begin complex negotiations to get something as good. Does anyone seriously think we could get something better?

Japanese trade negotiators working on the bilateral Free Trade Agreement with UK are successfully holding out for better terms – for them* – than they could achieve in similar talks with EU. This is evidence, not opinion, that our bilateral trade negotiating power is weaker than our position were we to remain. That the ‘freedom to negotiate free trade deals’, which the Brexiteer Tory MPs in the European Research Group regard as a red line, will lead to greater economic prosperity is a delusion. The UK will be weaker and more isolated.

All that will happen in future is that the UK, post Brexit, will be forced to ask to piggyback on EU trade deals with, say, Japan to secure equal terms. Our only argument will be that the aggregation of our market to the EU’s will add strength. Which is no more than the restoration of the position had we remained in the EU.

That is why no business organisation wants Brexit and why there is no queue of lobbyists in Whitehall screaming to be ‘liberated’ from the EU shackles. In a highly unusual and telling manifestation of unity the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress have written a joint letter to the prime minister expressing a deep-rooted concern about the direction in which the country is headed and urging a change of approach. What exactly is it that Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson know about British business which the TUC and the CBI don’t?

A disunited kingdom
Moreover, there is a second reason for why I have changed my mind. The threat to the United Kingdom. This hits me like a massive punch in the stomach. When I cast my vote in 2016 I believed that the European Union was, if anything, a threat to our own union. Beneath the federal objectives of Brussels bureaucrats lay a routinely denied hostility to individual nation states (though the nation states, including Britain but not only Britain, have always fought back).

I now see a different picture. The “ever closer union” brigade in Brussels do still need to be resisted. That has not changed – though under current arrangements we’re not part of that.

Like almost everybody else I underestimated the importance of the Good Friday Agreement

But I did not foresee that Brexit would threaten the continued existence of our kingdom as a union. I reckoned without the separatists within our nation who would push us apart, and seize on Brexit (as the Scottish nationalists are doing) as a reason to break up.

I did not foresee how the popularity of our union in Northern Ireland might weaken, if ease of interchange with the Republic were threatened. Like almost everybody else I underestimated the importance of the Good Friday Agreement. And we’ve all misunderstood the Irish question, even though it has loomed so large in our history for the last 500 years.

I did not foresee how one of the biggest arguments against Scottish independence – that Europe would not encourage the break-up of its member states by accepting an independent Scotland as a new member – would be lost after Brexit. I failed to understand how the EU is part of the glue which now holds us together in the United Kingdom.

Illegal tactics
My third unhappiness concerns the integrity of some leading Brexiteers. We are learning more and more about the deceit and illegal tactics which accompanied the Leave campaign. Late last month, on a busy news day, Vote Leave dropped its appeal against a £61,000 fine for electoral offences committed during the referendum.

Allegations of illegal overspending are deeply worrying. Britain’s data protection watchdog, the Information Commissioner’s Office, fined Leave. EU and Eldon Insurance, an insurance company run by Leave’s Arron Banks, a total of £120,000 for breaking electoral marketing laws. The National Crime Agency is still investigating suspicions of criminal offences committed by the unofficial Brexit campaign during the referendum. Banks’ alleged links to Russian money are even more worrying. There have not yet been serious enough attempts to answer these questions.

Phrases such as 'vassal state', 'empire' and 'supplicant' do not even remotely characterise our relation with Europe

A false prospectus
The fourth problem is the Brexiteers themselves. Language has become ever shriller. Phrases such as 'vassal state', 'empire' and 'supplicant' have entered the language even though they do not even remotely characterise our relation with Europe. The affection of some of them for Donald Trump is ominous.

It is not too late to think again. Our European neighbours have made it clear that we can reverse Article 50. Of course this would be a moment of national embarrassment.

More seriously, it would quite reasonably be portrayed as a betrayal of the 17. 4 million people who voted to leave Europe in the referendum. This is a huge, powerful point, and having thought about it deeply I would answer as follows.

The Brexiteers made a succession of claims about leaving the EU that have turned out to be untrue. They said it would be quick and easy. They said that a raft of trade deals would be available by the time we left the EU. To quote Liam Fox, “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history. ”

They made exaggerated and false claims about British finances after Brexit. They used illegal methods, and their funding was obscure. If the Brexit referendum had been a general election the Brexiteers would have been chucked out of office.

Of course changing our approach after a year’s mature reflection would need a second referendum. But I don’t believe it would be undemocratic. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since January 2016. So many of the facts have changed that it makes every kind of sense to re-examine the most important decision in decades.

Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour. Call that negative, if you like, but precaution is negative – yet it is part of our kit for survival.

I come back, then, to a proposition that sounds lame – as quiet good sense so often does. Just this, and this alone. Suspending Brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative. How many important decisions in our own lives, too, have had to be taken on such a chilly and unexciting consideration? It’s time for a long pause.

[arista]

For You TwoSugars
Someone in my office
likes this

Not my views, though

1115196743942066177

[Sticks]

Twosugars

Why are you spreading the wicked lies of Project Fear on Industrial Strength Super Steroids, that Satan :devil: himself would baulk at spreading.

A hard No deal Brexit will be a golden age of prosperity for all as we go up those sunny uplands.

That nice Ree-Smog and Mr Farage have promised us so...

[Twosugars]

For You TwoSugars
Someone in my office
likes this

Not my views, though

1115196743942066177
Thanks, Arista!
Twosugars

Why are you spreading the wicked lies of Project Fear on Industrial Strength Super Steroids, that Satan :devil: himself would baulk at spreading.

A hard No deal Brexit will be a golden age of prosperity for all as we go up those sunny uplands.

That nice Ree-Smog and Mr Farage have promised us so...

:hee:

[Withano]

Twosugars

Why are you spreading the wicked lies of Project Fear on Industrial Strength Super Steroids, that Satan :devil: himself would baulk at spreading.

A hard No deal Brexit will be a golden age of prosperity for all as we go up those sunny uplands.

That nice Ree-Smog and Mr Farage have promised us so...

I don’t even believe that you believe this

[reece(:]

Britain already £66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit

Brexit has cost the British economy £66 billion since the referendum, a report has found. Credit ratings agency Standard and Poor suggested that since the June 2016 vote, 3% has been shaved off GDP. That equates to ‘foregone economic activity’ of £6.6billion in each of the 10 quarters since the referendum, or £66 billion, the agency said.

Brexit has also cost the British economy £550 million a week since the referendum, as business investment dries up amid political paralysis in Westminster. ‘The most visible effect has been the depreciation of the British pound, which triggered an increase in inflation. The ultimate result was to erode household spending power. ‘Household spending would have been considerably stronger – in line with GDP – had the referendum not occurred,’ S&P said in its publication, Countdown To Brexit: What Might Have Been For The UK Economy. It added that external trade did not see any significant boost from the pound’s collapse, contrary to claims from leading Brexit proponents that exports would be boosted.


S&P senior economist Boris Glass said: ‘Uncertainty over the shape and form Brexit will take has increasingly paralysed any forward-looking decision making. ‘This is reflected in particular in a contraction of business investment in 2018.’ The analysis also shows that British-based businesses have ‘ventured well beyond the point of no return’, which will hammer the economy even harder. Many have ‘reorganised their business structure to comply with regulation and to safeguard unimpeded EU market access’.

‘This will also dampen growth while the economy adjusts to the new business environment after Brexit, whether there is a deal or not,’ the report said. The findings are the latest in a series of Brexit impact assessments. Investment banking giant Goldman Sachs estimated that £600 million a week as been lost because of Brexit, and the Bank of England suggested a figure of around £40 billion per year, or £800 million per week. All three figures are significantly higher than the £350 million a week the Leave campaign’s bus claimed would be saved by Britain. The S&P report comes as MPs remain in deadlock over Britain’s divorce terms, with Theresa May appealing to Jeremy Corbyn to help her break the impasse.


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/britain-already-66000000000-poorer-brexit-9113538/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.twitter?ito=cbshare

[reece(:]

1115377236864057345

[Nicky91]

:clap2: great choice parliament, voting against the evil chaos, there is still hope for this parliament yet

[Cherie]

Poor Sticks, he will have to return those rolls of razor wire to B n Q :sad:

[Sticks]

Nah

Parliament can vote that the Moon is made of purple cheese, which is just as valid as last night's vote.

[bots]

A complete waste of time creating that bill. For one, May is asking for an extension anyway and secondly the EU can simply say no, or put conditions on an extension that are not acceptable.

A no deal scenario is still as valid an outcome as it ever was.

[Nicky91]

A complete waste of time creating that bill. For one, May is asking for an extension anyway and secondly the EU can simply say no, or put conditions on an extension that are not acceptable.

A no deal scenario is still as valid an outcome as it ever was.

then parliament could be willing to accept a deal from May after all, since they seem (thankfully) so against the whole ''no deal'' option

[Nicky91]

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/04/brexit-deadline-dutch-are-prepared-to-give-britain-more-time/

good news for May, from us dutch, we are prepared to give britain more time


comes as a bit of a surprise since our PM Rutte was first opposed to an extension till june 30

[arista]

Nah

Parliament can vote that the Moon is made of purple cheese, which is just as valid as last night's vote.



You will get a Shock Tomorrow
when the 27 nations of the EU
give the UK a Year Extension

No Business wants that.

[arista]

[17:29

MPs vote in favour of PM asking for delay to Brexit to 30 June

Ayes: 420

Noes: 110]

[17:32
MPs have voted in favour of asking the PM to request a Brexit delay
May is in Paris now, having visited Berlin earlier, to speak to key leaders in the EU about a potential Brexit delay until 30 June.
MPs back in London have now given their support for this - voting by a large majority to back her asking for that delay.
It would mean not leaving this Friday without a deal.
It will also mean the UK will have to start getting ready to hold the European Elections.]

[Sticks]

But France according to the soundings coming out of Paris is set to veto any extension past this Friday

We're leaving without a deal
We're leaving without a deal
Ee I Adio
We're leaving without a deal

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/5BiuG1ExHIf_nVt6bbirrA/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/FLqtJvyyQWaUokSY3731_i.JPG

[user104658]

It is the sensible option even for a Brexiteer, SURELY. Why say June 30th when we all know nothing will have changed by then and it'll just be more chaos? A long extension gives time to go back to the drawing board and figure out a deal that actually works long before the deadline.

[arista]

It is the sensible option even for a Brexiteer, SURELY. Why say June 30th when we all know nothing will have changed by then and it'll just be more chaos? A long extension gives time to go back to the drawing board and figure out a deal that actually works long before the deadline.


Yes but up to one year is going to bankrupt
some, who need a stable market place.
The only way to solve this is a
Double General Election a 2 week affair
Unless the first Election gets a Solid Result.


https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/OR5KX7yhyL3Un8CjTXhHow/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/PD4qTbWlSnaykfY5SsA7_guardian.JPG

[Ammi]

..(...I would have thought..)...that a long extension would be a negative thing ...just because it continues the uncertainty and uncertainty prevents...it prevents decisions, investments, growth, movement etc...as a general rule in life with all things...it’s better to know what you’re dealing with/the impact/repercussions etc of Brexit...so that movement can happen and steps can be taken to deal with what needs to be...?...but uncertainty/indecision/postponement...well the country just can’t get to grips with that...another waiting game, another nothingness and just standing still again...which it feels as though we’ve been doing since the referendum result....

[Ammi]

Yes but up to one year is going to bankrupt
some, who need a stable market place.
The only way to solve this is a
Double General Election a 2 week affair
Unless the first Election gets a Solid Result.


https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/OR5KX7yhyL3Un8CjTXhHow/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/PD4qTbWlSnaykfY5SsA7_guardian.JPG

...or in business terms, what Arista just said...stability which is needed won’t be gained from a long extension...instability will keep its comfortable place and that can’t be a good thing, surely...?...

[bots]

Instability is hugely damaging, and going for extension, referendums, general elections etc is just going to make things much worse. It's disgusting that mp's are behaving like this. It's all political games with no thought for the country

[arista]

Instability is hugely damaging, and going for extension, referendums, general elections etc is just going to make things much worse. It's disgusting that mp's are behaving like this. It's all political games with no thought for the country


No
Elections change the cards we play
Wash away the pathetic indie party(Change UK)

[Northern Monkey]

Instability is hugely damaging, and going for extension, referendums, general elections etc is just going to make things much worse. It's disgusting that mp's are behaving like this. It's all political games with no thought for the country

Can’t argue with that.
Our Parliament(both sides) is an embarrassment.
They’ve failed in their task.

[The Slim Reaper]

1115896780321894401

[Twosugars]

..(...I would have thought..)...that a long extension would be a negative thing ...just because it continues the uncertainty and uncertainty prevents...it prevents decisions, investments, growth, movement etc...as a general rule in life with all things...it’s better to know what you’re dealing with/the impact/repercussions etc of Brexit...so that movement can happen and steps can be taken to deal with what needs to be...?...but uncertainty/indecision/postponement...well the country just can’t get to grips with that...another waiting game, another nothingness and just standing still again...which it feels as though we’ve been doing since the referendum result....

it is better than a rushed decision

[Twosugars]

It's nobody's fault but the government. They should have sought a consensus across the party lines when May got elected. And should have got their ducks in a row before triggering art.50.

[arista]

It's nobody's fault but the government. They should have sought a consensus across the party lines when May got elected. And should have got their ducks in a row before triggering art.50.



Its the Current PM
at fault.
When they Elect a new leader
it can change.

[The Slim Reaper]

1115756171913199625

[Twosugars]

Tusk getting it on with Macron - I'd watch that :flutter:

[The Slim Reaper]

https://i.imgur.com/nItgXnn.jpg

[arista]

1115880492979687424


[Nigel Farage to launch Brexit Party at Coventry factory
The prominent Brexiteer is launching the party at BG Penny & Co in Longford on Friday]

[arista]

The PM has now
arrived in Brussels.
She regrets that her Parliament can not find a agreement.
Refused to answer the question:
what will she do with a longer extension?


1115989892419477504


And
this from twitter:
With an election imminent, we need two parties to choose between. They should be for In or Out'

[The Slim Reaper]

1110946588015427590

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1113542829320671232/iqq9Ar2z?format=jpg&name=600x314

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3zvbS3W4AER7xj.jpg

[MTVN]

Is May going to pull a shocker and either reject the extension or resign if the EU insist it must be longer than June :think:

[bots]

Is May going to pull a shocker and either reject the extension or resign if the EU insist it must be longer than June :think:

she might, with a long extension her position is untenable, i think she could be gone by friday unless there is quick resolution.

I can see the EU getting a bit pissed at an extension summit every couple of weeks. I would now rather there was no extension, and force mp's to back a horse by friday

[smudgie]

After all this messing about, if we don’t leave on Friday then she should resign.
Call a general election and get on with life.:fist:

[reece(:]

Is May going to pull a shocker and either reject the extension or resign if the EU insist it must be longer than June :think:

She's going to do whatever she can to cling onto the power, as she always has

[reece(:]

Screaming

1115595557412585472

[AnnieK]

Delay now said to be to 31st October

[Vanessa]

:shocked:Delay now said to be to 31st October

[Wizard.]

Delay now said to be to 31st October

not a spooky dooky cliff edge

[joeysteele]

She's going to do whatever she can to cling onto the power, as she always has

She will reece.

She sure loves the title PM even though she is the most useless PM ever.

My surprise is that Conservative MPs haven't persistently pressured the Cabinet to get her to go.
For goodness sake, they forced out a strong clear winner of a leader and PM in Margaret Thatcher.

Yet they can't dispense with the services of this wholly incompetent one.

[Twosugars]

The delusions about Europe in this country are a disease.

[reece(:]

Looks like Sticks will be amending his "song" again

https://i.imgur.com/GU32azH.gif

[LukeB]

So when are we leaving? :joker:

[joeysteele]

So when are we leaving? :joker:

October 31st.
Although a review in June.
That seems to be what's been agreed.

[arista]

[PM Theresa May agrees new Brexit delay to
31 October Thursday
with EU PM given extra six months
to break Westminster deadlock
'Flexible' Article 50 extension could
allow UK to leave EU earlier]

https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-to-face-mps-after-asking-eu-leaders-for-short-brexit-delay-11689369


1116142185211146240

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/aKTgZgt9wKoBPha9vCHDDA/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/39pTtaT4TNyXa2XO45c8_Metro%20P1%20Apr%2011.jpg

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/0XIYynaJwwCy5LTnhKoxhg/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/o7hXDGfBRIy7sS8sn4co_i%20front%20page%2011%20April .jpg

[Cherie]

31st October, they are trolling with the date surely :laugh:

[arista]

31st October, they are trolling with the date surely :laugh:


But a EU Summit before that date.

[arista]

But France according to the soundings coming out of Paris is set to veto any extension past this Friday

We're leaving without a deal
We're leaving without a deal
Ee I Adio
We're leaving without a deal



You have it Wrong Sicks
Tomorrows date is confirmed as Cancelled.
By June there could be a No Deal
But the Current Date of Leaving
now set as Thursday 31st of October 2019

[Northern Monkey]

Kicking the can down the road like this is not helping anyone.
Our crappy Parliament needs to make a decision.

[Ammi]

....Halloween 576895547629../..The Brexorcist....

[Cherie]

....Halloween 576895547629../..The Brexorcist....

:joker:

[Cherie]

Kicking the can down the road like this is not helping anyone.
Our crappy Parliament needs to make a decision.

Its going to make a GE interesting, the only parties that are truly for remain and leave at the moment are the Brexit Party and the Lib Dems, so Farage could be installed as PM propped up by the Lib Dems by the end of the year :skull:

[joeysteele]

I really don't know how she dare face cameras and Parliament.

What a shocking display from her all round.

[AnnieK]

....Halloween 576895547629../..The Brexorcist....

:laugh:

[user104658]

Its going to make a GE interesting, the only parties that are truly for remain and leave at the moment are the Brexit Party and the Lib Dems, so Farage could be installed as PM propped up by the Lib Dems by the end of the year :skull:I don't see how The Brexit Party could possibly churn out MPs into enough constituencies for that, though. Even if half of the country would vote for a Brexit party, the way our system works means that you can only vote for them if you have someone to vote for.

Of course my hope is SNP taking back those rogue tory seats in Scotland and Westminster having to beg Wee Nic for support :hehe:.

[Cherie]

I don't see how The Brexit Party could possibly churn out MPs into enough constituencies for that, though. Even if half of the country would vote for a Brexit party, the way our system works means that you can only vote for them if you have someone to vote for.

Of course my hope is SNP taking back those rogue tory seats in Scotland and Westminster having to beg Wee Nic for support :hehe:.

I can't see them having any issues recruiting for candidates, in leave constituencies they will be almost a shoe in

Its very tricky for Labour as they cant be all things to all people, I expect the Cons to keep going with delivering Brexit

[Smithy]

Looks like Sticks will be amending his "song" again

https://i.imgur.com/GU32azH.gif

Oh god not again

https://media.tenor.com/images/f6e22185d5ecc0b7ab03ae139b77acf3/tenor.gif

[bots]

People can criticise May, she has been dire, but the simple fact of the matter is that her agreement is the only one there is, the EU are not going to renegotiate it, they have stated that categorically numerous times now. With that fact there, then the UK parliament can vote for that deal, go for a no deal, or revoke article 50. This is not difficult, those are the options. Everything else is just mp's playing politics. That is why May is frustrated, and in that, I don't blame her at all.

[Northern Monkey]

What a mess a GE would be.

[Northern Monkey]

I can't see them having any issues recruiting for candidates, in leave constituencies they will be almost a shoe in

Its very tricky for Labour as they cant be all things to all people, I expect the Cons to keep going with delivering Brexit

Labour would actually have to pick a path.They’ll alienate a large section of their voters whatever they do.It could actually be really bad for them.

[arista]

What a mess a GE would be.


It would all change
new Brexit MP's , New Party

We need a general election
to get rid of those wasted indie party

We need it all changed

[Cherie]

People can criticise May, she has been dire, but the simple fact of the matter is that her agreement is the only one there is, the EU are not going to renegotiate it, they have stated that categorically numerous times now. With that fact there, then the UK parliament can vote for that deal, go for a no deal, or revoke article 50. This is not difficult, those are the options. Everything else is just mp's playing politics. That is why May is frustrated, and in that, I don't blame her at all.


I agree, okay maybe her red lines didn't help but the MPs did have many choices and many many votes. Also people saying she should have gone earlier for cross party talks and when she did that wasn't right either :laugh:

kick it back to the public

[Livia]

May's agreement is the only one there is because she has steadfastly refused to allow people to comment on the bits they don't like and maybe change them. Mrs May has an "it's my way or the highway" approach that's split her party down the middle. What an awful time in politics. If there was an election tomorrow I would probably write "NONE OF THE ABOVE" on my ballot paper.

[arista]

....Halloween 576895547629../..The Brexorcist....



https://cdn-03.independent.ie/incoming/article38005297.ece/52c71/AUTOCROP/w620/brexorcist.JPG


https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/banter/trending/the-brexorcist-twitter-reacts-predictably-to-halloween-brexit-38005302.html


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D33ws40XkAAS-zR.jpg

[Ammi]

https://cdn-03.independent.ie/incoming/article38005297.ece/52c71/AUTOCROP/w620/brexorcist.JPG

...Haha, excellent..:laugh:..the Brexorcism of Theresa May...(..extended version..)...

[arista]

The PM Live now in Parliament

[arista]

Even though the date is now 31st of October
there is only 74 Parliament sitting days
As PM Holidays go on as usual.
Two Fecking Weeks Holiday from tonight.


and

1116342838353121281

[arista]

[ Election Maps UK Retweeted
Britain Elects
‏ @britainelects
1h1 hour ago

English & Welsh Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 41% (-1)
CON: 37% (-8)
LDEM: 10% (+2)
UKIP: 7% (+5)
GRN: 2% (-)
CHUK: 1% (+1)]



UKIP on the up with some young folks



And this
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D337wTaXsAQmHuz.jpg

[arista]

1116358104935956484


MP Bill Cash has a Secret Plan

[user104658]

Labour would actually have to pick a path.They’ll alienate a large section of their voters whatever they do.It could actually be really bad for them.If Labour picked a stance and ditched Corbyn for a more sensible / relatable (and darw I say it... A bit younger) center ground leader, IMO they would mop the floor in a GE.

[Livia]

If Labour picked a stance and ditched Corbyn for a more sensible / relatable (and darw I say it... A bit younger) center ground leader, IMO they would mop the floor in a GE.

They absolutely would. And as much as I'm not a Labour supporter, I hope they get rid of Corbyn soon. We need a strong government and a strong opposition and right now we've got neither.

[bots]

If Labour picked a stance and ditched Corbyn for a more sensible / relatable (and darw I say it... A bit younger) center ground leader, IMO they would mop the floor in a GE.

i think labour will do a lot better without Corbyn, but the tories will have a new leader, and i would bet on it being someone relatively unknown.

At the moment though, they have the voting history of every MP, and whoever leads the party's going in to an election, that voting history will be examined in detail

[Sticks]

They absolutely would. And as much as I'm not a Labour supporter, I hope they get rid of Corbyn soon. We need a strong government and a strong opposition and right now we've got neither.

Don't let the Praetorian Guard of Momentum catch you saying that, or you might have a brick through your window... :shocked:

[Livia]

Don't let the Praetorian Guard of Momentum catch you saying that, or you might have a brick through your window... :shocked:

I'm not scared, bring it on you awful old Soviet nostalgists.

[joeysteele]

They absolutely would. And as much as I'm not a Labour supporter, I hope they get rid of Corbyn soon. We need a strong government and a strong opposition and right now we've got neither.

Hi Livia.

I actually agree mostly.
I would like a new leader for Labour too.

I feel both major Party leaders are dividing rather than uniting their Parties.

If there's a Conservative leadership election any time soon.
You are usually quite on the ball on such issues.
Who would your money be on.

[reece(:]

Liz Kendall deserves labour leader!

[joeysteele]

Liz Kendall deserves labour leader!

I wouldn't mind that, Liz has been to the forefront of the brexit issue.
Getting some good points over against the PM.

My preferences would be, Dan Jarvis, still even Hilary Benn.


On the Conservative side.
If I was a supporter of them, the MP I most admire as I've said before, is Rory Stewart.
Of the cabinet, probably Matt Hancock.

This brexit issue may be irritating and frustrating but politics is never dull in my view.

[arista]

[Early signs of political support are encouraging.
Former Tory MP and lifelong Conservative member Michael Brown has become a registered supporter
of the Brexit Party. I was also amazed to hear the former
Tory minister Ann Widdecombe declare that, having campaigned for the Conservatives at every election since 1970,
she would vote for us in the European elections if we have the right candidates. ]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/11/brexit-party-will-give-people-chance-change-politics-good/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_AsTlcqSlPKSV

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D37sGRYUIAEro6V.jpg

A New Party today "The Brexit Party"
meanwhile the 11 MP's of the Indie Group
are still waiting for their new name "Change UK"
to start up...................

[Sticks]

David Cameron should be dragged back to clean up his mess

[arista]

David Cameron should be dragged back to clean up his mess


No he Resigned as MP.
That's him out of Politics



He should never have Dragged, the then,
USA President into our nation
to talk down to us.

[arista]

"No Deal" has stopped for now
until October when Civil Servants start again




Ref: All Out Politics SkyNewsHD 9:03AM

[The Slim Reaper]

No he Resigned as MP.
That's him out of Politics



He should never have Dragged, the then,
USA President into our nation
to talk down to us.

What does Obama have to do with anything? We're being told that no one believed the lies that actually made up the whole leave campaign.

[arista]

What does Obama have to do with anything? We're being told that no one believed the lies that actually made up the whole leave campaign.


He would say back of the Line
[B]but was given a UK Script of what to say
"back of the queue"[/B


https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-personally-requested-obamas-back-of-the-queue-brexit-warning-11423669

[Sticks]

No, the leave campaign branded all the warnings of the Remain camp as lies of Project Fear, but now these warnings, which were dismissed are coming to pass.

[The Slim Reaper]

He would say back of the Line
[B]but was given a UK Script of what to say
"back of the queue"[/B


https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-personally-requested-obamas-back-of-the-queue-brexit-warning-11423669

Right...so?

[Ammi]

...I haven’t seen any indication that Brexiting will be putting us at the front of any queues so Obama was most wise I reckon, Arista...

[The Slim Reaper]

...I haven’t seen any indication that Brexiting will be putting us at the front of any queues so Obama was most wise I reckon, Arista...

*Front of the line (you're welcome, Arista).