The EU - Referendum - 23rd of June 2016 - in or out?

[Alf]

The EU is one big slave ring, hidden behind bureaucracy of course.

And being working class and coming from the city of William Wilberforce, there is just no way I can support it.

[Kizzy]

The EU is one big slave ring, hidden behind bureaucracy of course.

And being working class and coming from the city of William Wilberforce, there is just no way I can support it.

You are already a wage slave.

[Alf]

The risk of destroying our civilisation.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/camerons-support-for-turkeys-eu-membership-should-worry-us-all/

[arista]

The risk of destroying our civilisation.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/camerons-support-for-turkeys-eu-membership-should-worry-us-all/

‘Turkey deserves its place at the top table of European politics – and that is what I will fight for.’


6 years ago Alf.

The PM knows they are not stable , now
under this Hard Leader.


He is in Brussels now
as our PM has paid Turkey Big money
to stop sending Illegals over to Greece
A deal set up by the German Woman Leader.
http://news.sky.com/story/1661327/eu-meets-over-one-in-one-out-migrant-deal


Turkey can not join if it keeps shutting down TV and newspapers

So its well beyond Dave's term

[arista]

You are already a wage slave.



Slave?


This is not Africa or Saudi Arabia
Kizzy

[joeysteele]

‘Turkey deserves its place at the top table of European politics – and that is what I will fight for.’


6 years ago Alf.

The PM knows they are not stable , now
under this Hard Leader.


He is in Brussels now
as our PM has paid Turkey Big money
to stop sending Illegals over to Greece
A deal set up by the German Woman Leader.


Turkey can not join if it keeps shutting down TV and newspapers

So its well beyond Dave's term


I agree, I think Turkey in the EU is a very long way off.

[Northern Monkey]

I agree, I think Turkey in the EU is a very long way off.

Although one of Turkey's requirements for the migrant deal is expected to be speeding up the process of their EU membership.Let's hope they can come to an agreement without that.The last thing we as an EU member need is the door opening to Turkey for multiple reasons.

[arista]

Although one of Turkey's requirements for the migrant deal is expected to be speeding up the process of their EU membership.Let's hope they can come to an agreement without that.The last thing we as an EU member need is the door opening to Turkey for multiple reasons.



But only when Turkey is a Fair Nation
not before that - No Fecking Speed up thats Hype

[Northern Monkey]

But only when Turkey is a Fair Nation
not before that - No Fecking Speed up thats Hype

Let's hope not.Though a deal works two ways.You have to give to get anything.

[arista]

Let's hope not.Though a deal works two ways.You have to give to get anything.


UK / Germany are paying Cash
for this Deal


The rest is in Ultra Long Grass

[Kizzy]

Slave?


This is not Africa or Saudi Arabia
Kizzy

It's a turn of phrase aristabot don't worry about it :joker:

[Alf]

Pat knows the score


qZi1CMuYvBE

[Alf]

An article about the banks should we exit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/21/brexit-would-not-lead-to-exodus-of-bankers-from-uk/

[DemolitionRed]

/watch?v=kKzabfJW_oQ

We can't risk this clown running our country.

[joeysteele]

To the undecided on this thread.
May I please ask, and naturally no one need answer if they don't wish to, there are 6 names here who felt and maybe still do feel undecided.

Has anything from either camp Nationally or over the media,addressed any of the doubts,concerns and questions they may have or had.

The undecided are the important people as to the whole debate of being in or out,and I was just curious as to whether those who started off in this poll as being undecided have felt any strong inclination now either way as time has gone on.

[Alf]

To the undecided, just look at what happened today, and ask yourself, are we really safer in Europe's free movement? or would we be safer by controlling our own borders?

[smudgie]

To the undecided on this thread.
May I please ask, and naturally no one need answer if they don't wish to, there are 6 names here who felt and maybe still do feel undecided.

Has anything from either camp Nationally or over the media,addressed any of the doubts,concerns and questions they may have or had.

The undecided are the important people as to the whole debate of being in or out,and I was just curious as to whether those who started off in this poll as being undecided have felt any strong inclination now either way as time has gone on.

Still not totally decided here Joey' however the Brexit MP campaigners are enough to to make me vote to stay in.
I will listen to what is being said on both sides and hopefully all will become clearer nearer the time to vote.

[Johnnyuk123]

To the undecided, just look at what happened today, and ask yourself, are we really safer in Europe's free movement? or would we be safer by controlling our own borders?

Well said Alf! :clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Kizzy]

And that would prevent what exactly?

[Alf]

And that would prevent what exactly?
I don't know, but we know what doesn't prevent it.

How many atrocities in Europe is that now, in just the 16 year's of this century? is it not that many? or too many?

[Kizzy]

I don't know, but we know what doesn't prevent it.

How many atrocities in Europe is that now, in just the 16 year's of this century? is it not that many? or too many?

And what of the terrorist attacks that have happened outside Europe, are you going to suggest we remove ourselves from the world? What if we out trumped trump and all live under a nice shiny dome?

[Alf]

And what of the terrorist attacks that have happened outside Europe, are you going to suggest we remove ourselves from the world? What if we out trumped trump and all live under a nice shiny dome?
There must be lights burning brighter somewhere
Got to be birds flying higher in a sky more blue
If I can dream of a better land
Where all my brothers walk hand in hand
Tell me why, oh why, oh why can't my dream come true

[Beso]

To the undecided, just look at what happened today, and ask yourself, are we really safer in Europe's free movement? or would we be safer by controlling our own borders?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/12201592/Allison-Pearson-why-stay-in-the-EU-when-its-capital-is-also-the-capital-of-jihadism-in-Europe.html?sf22977314=1


I'm out.

[joeysteele]

Quite frankly for me what happened today makes me stronger as to staying in.

The last message I want sent to IS is that Europe is not together on this against their despicable actions.

I also would prefer if Europe is going to take any decisions in the future as to dealing with IS then I want the UK at the head of things helping to make sure it is got as right as it can be.
No way do I wish for any terrorist group seeing any break ups in European nations being together.
Just my view and feelings and its fair to say we probably would not be any safer from this vile group in or out to be honest.
However unity is strength, so the saying goes.

[joeysteele]

Still not totally decided here Joey' however the Brexit MP campaigners are enough to to make me vote to stay in.
I will listen to what is being said on both sides and hopefully all will become clearer nearer the time to vote.

Thanks very much for your response Smudgie.:wavey:
I was just interested because now on this poll, we have no idea how if any minds of the undecided are made up as they cannot alter that as to the poll.

I do get what you mean as to some in the exit side :joker:,Chris Grayling, Boris Johnson,Theresa Villiers and certainly Ian Duncan Smith would likely have me moving to the in side,if I was undecided for sure.

[Beso]

Do you believe that we should come out of the EU or do you believe that we should stay in?

Please answer and give your reasons.

Out, just to spice things up a bit...lifes boring atm and needs a kick up the arse.

[bots]

I feel being in the EU gives us more of an affinity with those affected by these events, and the same would be true with our EU partners if something were to happen to us.

What I have noticed is that the out team are taking a snapshot of the EU now and saying its crap, we want nothing to do with it. Whereas the truth is, that its constantly evolving. There may well be immigration issues now, it doesn't mean it will be this way in 20 years. We can help shape it. We can't shape anything if we are out, we will only ever be reacting to whatever everyone else is doing.

[hijaxers]

And what of the terrorist attacks that have happened outside Europe, are you going to suggest we remove ourselves from the world? What if we out trumped trump and all live under a nice shiny dome?

You depress me

[joeysteele]

I feel being in the EU gives us more of an affinity with those affected by these events, and the same would be true with our EU partners if something were to happen to us.

What I have noticed is that the out team are taking a snapshot of the EU now and saying its crap, we want nothing to do with it. Whereas the truth is, that its constantly evolving. There may well be immigration issues now, it doesn't mean it will be this way in 20 years. We can help shape it. We can't shape anything if we are out, we will only ever be reacting to whatever everyone else is doing.

I totally agree with all you say above.
Again you do it in a strong and concise way too.

[Kizzy]

You depress me

Thanks :) as an ex goth it makes me so happy to know that.

[hijaxers]

Thanks :) as an ex goth it makes me so happy to know that.

Good stay as dark as you like ! I am an ex goth too but not as dark and depressing- Oh yeah people like me

[DemolitionRed]

To the undecided on this thread.
May I please ask, and naturally no one need answer if they don't wish to, there are 6 names here who felt and maybe still do feel undecided.

Has anything from either camp Nationally or over the media,addressed any of the doubts,concerns and questions they may have or had.

The undecided are the important people as to the whole debate of being in or out,and I was just curious as to whether those who started off in this poll as being undecided have felt any strong inclination now either way as time has gone on.

I’m going to vote to remain in but only because I trust the EU more than I trust our undemocratic government.
There are so many positives to leaving the EU but with this present government, what we will get is unbridled corporate power, unhindered tax evasion, longer working weeks and less workers rights.

Edited to say: and we’d lose Scotland and possibly Whales and Northern Ireland.

[Kizzy]

Good stay as dark as you like ! I am an ex goth too but not as dark and depressing- Oh yeah people like me

Good for you, what has that to do with the EU though?

[kirklancaster]

And what of the terrorist attacks that have happened outside Europe, are you going to suggest we remove ourselves from the world? What if we out trumped trump and all live under a nice shiny dome?

I think that Alf's very valid point is; that yet another of the 'IN' camp's B.S. claims; that 'we are safer from being in the EU' has been exposed as yet another lie.

The EU has PROVED that it is INCAPABALE of keeping the peace both inside and outside its borders and it is NATO - with the USA backing - who HAVE kept the peace in Europe NOT the EU.

It was NATO not the EU who maintained peace and stability in Post WW2 Europe and during the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

From The BALKANS in the 1990's to LIBYA it is NATO who have taken the initiative after the EU did NOTHING.

Real peace in the Balkans is still not established, but the EU is continually reducing its 'peace-keeping mission' there increasing the likelyhood of the uneasy stability in Bosnia collapsing.

Despite it being in “Europe’s interest” to intervene in Libya, it was, again, NATO and the U.S. who took the initiative and acted positively, with the EU's pathetic contribution being only "a skeleton of a military headquarters in Italy at the cost of almost € 8 million". The EU's much boasted of "Military Humanitarian Mission there DID NOT HAPPEN and NATO had already "facilitated the liberation of Libya" while the EU procrastinated.

As ex Home Secretary Lord Howard said last night;

THE EU IS A FLAWED PROJECT FAILING TO KEEP ITS PEOPLE SAFE and the thoroughly FAILED SCHENGEN FIASCO is like 'HANGING A SIGN WELCOMING TERRORISTS TO EUROPE'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3505327/EU-fails-safe-says-Michael-Howard-Tory-peer-delivers-devastating-verdict-saying-Schengen-like-hanging-sign-welcoming-terrorists-Europe.html

VOTE 'OUT' IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[kirklancaster]

Good stay as dark as you like ! I am an ex goth too but not as dark and depressing- Oh yeah people like me

I don't like you HiJax - I LOVE YOU. :hee:

[Jamie89]

To the undecided on this thread.
May I please ask, and naturally no one need answer if they don't wish to, there are 6 names here who felt and maybe still do feel undecided.

Has anything from either camp Nationally or over the media,addressed any of the doubts,concerns and questions they may have or had.

The undecided are the important people as to the whole debate of being in or out,and I was just curious as to whether those who started off in this poll as being undecided have felt any strong inclination now either way as time has gone on.

Good question Joey. I'm still undecided but to be honest it's just because I still need to spend more time really going over all the information which I haven't had the chance to do properly yet. I want to be fully informed before making a decision but I've never really understood the EU before/what all the pros and cons are, it's just been something that we've been a part of and I've thought we'd always be a part of it and I've accepted it without ever really questioning it's merits. I'll say though that I started out leaning towards wanting to remain whereas now I'm leaning more towards voting out.

To the undecided, just look at what happened today, and ask yourself, are we really safer in Europe's free movement? or would we be safer by controlling our own borders?

For me it's about more than border control, there are so many ways in which it will impact us, I can't vote to leave on one issue alone. I also don't like the idea of voting a particular way out of fear of terrorism. So for me, I don't think the events in Brussels will impact my vote.

[Cherie]

You depress me

:joker: Kizzy is not for the faint hearted :fist:

[Cherie]

The difficulty for me us one side will put forward an argument, the other side will dismiss it as scaremongering without backing it up with any relevant facts, this happens on both sides of the argument so I am as uncertain as I was at the start I mightn't vote on it as it stands :omgno:

[Kizzy]

I think that Alf's very valid point is; that yet another of the 'IN' camp's B.S. claims; that 'we are safer from being in the EU' has been exposed as yet another lie.

The EU has PROVED that it is INCAPABALE of keeping the peace both inside and outside its borders and it is NATO - with the USA backing - who HAVE kept the peace in Europe NOT the EU.

It was NATO not the EU who maintained peace and stability in Post WW2 Europe and during the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

From The BALKANS in the 1990's to LIBYA it is NATO who have taken the initiative after the EU did NOTHING.

Real peace in the Balkans is still not established, but the EU is continually reducing its 'peace-keeping mission' there increasing the likelyhood of the uneasy stability in Bosnia collapsing.

Despite it being in “Europe’s interest” to intervene in Libya, it was, again, NATO and the U.S. who took the initiative and acted positively, with the EU's pathetic contribution being only "a skeleton of a military headquarters in Italy at the cost of almost € 8 million". The EU's much boasted of "Military Humanitarian Mission there DID NOT HAPPEN and NATO had already "facilitated the liberation of Libya" while the EU procrastinated.

As ex Home Secretary Lord Howard said last night;

THE EU IS A FLAWED PROJECT FAILING TO KEEP ITS PEOPLE SAFE and the thoroughly FAILED SCHENGEN FIASCO is like 'HANGING A SIGN WELCOMING TERRORISTS TO EUROPE'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3505327/EU-fails-safe-says-Michael-Howard-Tory-peer-delivers-devastating-verdict-saying-Schengen-like-hanging-sign-welcoming-terrorists-Europe.html

VOTE 'OUT' IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

By the same token it's failed 'out' bs that suggests it's the fault of the EU we are a target. It is our own foreign policies which saw this happen in my opinion, could it be due to the fact we are in NATO not the EU?
Notice we are getting very pally pally with Malta, they are in Europe but not NATO...hmmmm.
We are not in Schengen, which before destabilisation worked well for those countries in it.

[Kizzy]

:joker: Kizzy is not for the faint hearted :fist:

I'm not here for the fame (good job judging by my last most loved position) :joker:

[Livia]

Thank God we opted out of the Schengen agreement; if we hadn't I'm convinced that we would have had at least one Paris/Brussels style atrocity here. Border control is the biggest topic, as far as I can see, that makes people want to leave the EU. And I know a large proportion of terrorist recently have been home grown, but not exclusively and more IS people are arriving every day in the guise of refugees. If I was leading IS, I'd make sure that as many of my people as possible were among the refugees. And look at the freedom that Salah Abdeslam had to move backwards and forwards between Belgium and France. In a time of high terrorist risk, to continue to have open borders is r i d i c u l o u s.

[Kizzy]

Why us, what about the countries which are in Schengen which have not been targeted?

[joeysteele]

By the same token it's failed 'out' bs that suggests it's the fault of the EU we are a target. It is our own foreign policies which saw this happen in my opinion, could it be due to the fact we are in NATO not the EU?
Notice we are getting very pally pally with Malta, they are in Europe but not NATO...hmmmm.
We are not in Schengen, which before destabilisation worked well for those countries in it.

All good points Kizzy.

We, the UK, are not safe either in or out of the EU anyway because of our involvement,'without' the rest of the EU too but because of our involvement with the USA plans for the Middle East.


So we are told many plots have bee foiled in the UK and more will be but it is likely inevitable, in or out,that we will have an atrocity such as the likely of Paris and Brussels.

I repeat again, in or out, will not make us particularly safer either way however the message sent to the likes of IS of the UK splitting from its much closer ties with Europe is not one I personally want IS to get or see.
So for me, just my view,I prefer the unity we have and show with Europe with the EU Nations against the truly grotesque likes of IS,to remain intact fully.
Not sending out any divided signals whatsoever in any way.

Just for me for one, this is not a time to be thinking of dividing and actually going for trying to stand alone.
Not saying at all we couldn't stand alone but for me, it would send another very wrong signal to these truly awful terrorist,violent irrational groups in existence.

[Livia]

Why us, what about the countries which are in Schengen which have not been targeted?

You don't think open borders contributes to the decline in security? No... of course you don't.

[Kizzy]

You don't think open borders contributes to the decline in security? No... of course you don't.

Don't mock me or put words in my mouth please.

[Kizzy]

All good points Kizzy.

We, the UK, are not safe either in or out of the EU anyway because of our involvement,'without' the rest of the EU too but because of our involvement with the USA plans for the Middle East.


So we are told many plots have bee foiled in the UK and more will be but it is likely inevitable, in or out,that we will have an atrocity such as the likely of Paris and Brussels.

I repeat again, in or out, will not make us particularly safer either way however the message sent to the likes of IS of the UK splitting from its much closer ties with Europe is not one I personally want IS to get or see.
So for me, just my view,I prefer the unity we have and show with Europe with the EU Nations against the truly grotesque likes of IS,to remain intact fully.
Not sending out any divided signals whatsoever in any way.

Just for me for one, this is not a time to be thinking of dividing and actually going for trying to stand alone.
Not saying at all we couldn't stand alone but for me, it would send another very wrong signal to these truly awful terrorist,violent irrational groups in existence.

Thankyou Joey, as seen modern terrorist activity has come about from the radicalisation of individuals, I feel it is this which poses the greatest threat to any western country atm.
Like you I just cannot see how becoming a sovereignty would aid us against IS in any way.
Unless we were to align with another body or state, China perhaps?

[Livia]

We're already aligned with NATO.

[Northern Monkey]

Thank God we opted out of the Schengen agreement; if we hadn't I'm convinced that we would have had at least one Paris/Brussels style atrocity here. Border control is the biggest topic, as far as I can see, that makes people want to leave the EU. And I know a large proportion of terrorist recently have been home grown, but not exclusively and more IS people are arriving every day in the guise of refugees. If I was leading IS, I'd make sure that as many of my people as possible were among the refugees. And look at the freedom that Salah Abdeslam had to move backwards and forwards between Belgium and France. In a time of high terrorist risk, to continue to have open borders is r i d i c u l o u s.:clap1:

[joeysteele]

We're already aligned with NATO.

..... and with respect still under massive threat from the likes of IS as we would still be if we left the EU.
So really little changes.

However were we to ill advisedly ever leave NATO that would send the totally wrong and dangerous message to the likes of terrorist groups like IS and that is partly why I believe leaving the EU would also send them a wrong and dangerous message too.

At this time for me, in NATO and in the EU seems the far better places to be in my opinion.

I certainly cannot guarantee and would not do so anyway,that we would be safer in the EU but can 'you' guarantee we would be safer out of it and how.

[Livia]

..... and with respect still under massive threat from the likes of IS as we would still be if we left the EU.
So really little changes.

However were we to ill advisedly ever leave NATO that would send the totally wrong and dangerous message to the likes of terrorist groups like IS and that is partly why I believe leaving the EU would also send them a wrong and dangerous message too.

At this time for me, in NATO and in the EU seems the far better places to be in my opinion.

I certainly cannot guarantee and would not do so anyway,that we would be safer in the EU but can 'you' guarantee we would be safer out of it and how.

No one can guarantee anything, joey. However, if we spent half the money we pour into Europe on a daily basis, on improving security in this country we'd all sleep safer.

All that stuff aside though, the bottom line for me is this: I do not want an unelected body making laws in my country.

[DemolitionRed]

Better watch your backs boys because voting to leave the EU might not actually mean Brexit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11932990/Why-voting-to-leave-the-EU-might-not-actually-mean-Brexit.html

A heavily disguised Schengen Treaty comes to mind.

[DemolitionRed]

Whenever I go to Europe, I have to go through passport control where they often scrutinize my passport and its the same when I come back into the UK. I've never had any difficulty getting into Europe but then I've never had any difficulty getting into America, Africa, Malaysia, Egypt or any other country where I've needed a visa. The only difference is, they sometimes but not always stamp my passport and dictate how long I can stay.

Whilst we may restrict Europeans being able to live and work here the visa restrictions on certain countries, including America and the Middle East, won't change from what they are now, why would they? None European people will still apply to live and work here just like they do now. The only difference its going to make is to Europeans and that includes us.

How will that protect us?

[joeysteele]

No one can guarantee anything, joey. However, if we spent half the money we pour into Europe on a daily basis, on improving security in this country we'd all sleep safer.

All that stuff aside though, the bottom line for me is this: I do not want an unelected body making laws in my country.

£4.5 billion 'nett' would not actually go that far Livia and also we have no idea as to what level of trading costs,tariffs and conditions would be imposed on the UK as to trading and other deals.
That quite frankly I believe, would see that 4.5 billion pretty much gone without really being able to help as to very much at all as to other issues in the UK.

I'd agree the reforming the law side of things as to the EU needs to be looked at but I will never see that as a reason to quit the EU after so many decades.
With more Nations in the EU I believe more can now be done as to reforming the EU anyway after Cameron has started the ball rolling in a small way.

However the responses at this time from you were with respect challenging the point of IS and security and indicating you felt the UK could be better and safer out the EU with closed borders.
That was what I was addressing at this moment in time.

However again, this is an instance very clearly as to where I and the Nation knows where we are in the EU as to the threats of IS,we know we are under threat from them at this time.

However with respect yet again you as an 'out' individual still cannot,(although you appear to dismiss being in the EU as beneficial in any way as to dealing with the threats of IS),say how better and safer or even 'if' we would be guaranteed any safer as to that issue out of the EU, rather than in.
Other than mentioning closed borders which really believe will not totally stop terrorists and groups like IS, getting here if they really want to and it will not stop the threats of any attacks or even actual attacks taking place eventually.

The figure I guoted above should be approx 9 billion not 4.5 billion.

[Livia]

Whenever I go to Europe, I have to go through passport control where they often scrutinize my passport and its the same when I come back into the UK. I've never had any difficulty getting into Europe but then I've never had any difficulty getting into America, Africa, Malaysia, Egypt or any other country where I've needed a visa. The only difference is, they sometimes but not always stamp my passport and dictate how long I can stay.

Whilst we may restrict Europeans being able to live and work here the visa restrictions on certain countries, including America and the Middle East, won't change from what they are now, why would they? None European people will still apply to live and work here just like they do now. The only difference its going to make is to Europeans and that includes us.

How will that protect us?

You must be one of a kind, having no trouble travelling around the world.. or your travels have not been recent. But then you also think that "we do not live in dangerous times", according to one of your much earlier posts.

I've had trouble getting into the USA. I have been kept at immigration for a long time because I have Arabic stamps in my passport as I often travel to the Middle East for work. And I'm regularly checked going into Israel even though I do a lot of my work from there... again because I have Arabic stamps. The reason for this is that they understand that there is a terrorist problem and that the terrorists are almost exclusively Middle Eastern Muslims. We are not allowed to be any more vigilant than we already are because an unelected body dictates how we handle entry to and exit from this country.

[Livia]

£4.5 billion 'nett' would not actually go that far Livia and also we have no idea as to what level of trading costs,tariffs and conditions would be imposed on the UK as to trading and other deals.
That quite frankly I believe, would see that 4.5 billion pretty much gone without really being able to help as to very much at all as to other issues in the UK.

I'd agree the reforming the law side of things as to the EU needs to be looked at but I will never see that as a reason to quit the EU after so many decades.
With more Nations in the EU I believe more can now be done as to reforming the EU anyway after Cameron has started the ball rolling in a small way.

However the responses at this time from you were with respect challenging the point of IS and security and indicating you felt the UK could be better and safer out the EU with closed borders.
That was what I was addressing at this moment in time.

However again, this is an instance very clearly as to where I and the Nation knows where we are in the EU as to the threats of IS,we know we are under threat from them at this time.

However with respect yet again you as an 'out' individual still cannot,(although you appear to dismiss being in the EU as beneficial in any way as to dealing with the threats of IS),say how better and safer or even 'if' we would be guaranteed any safer as to that issue out of the EU, rather than in.
Other than mentioning closed borders which really believe will not totally stop terrorists and groups like IS, getting here if they really want to and it will not stop the threats of any attacks or even actual attacks taking place eventually.

£4.5 billion IS a lot of money, whichever way you twist it.

And no, I don't see one single reason to remain. Do you think cooperation between the security services would stop if we left? Of course not...

We should be in control of our own borders and of our own laws. If you are happy to have an unelected body dictate how we live here, I am not.

[Denver]

The cons of staying in Europe by far outweigh the pros

[Kizzy]

We're already aligned with NATO.

Who said we weren't? that is my point that the issues we face are zero to do with being in the EU or Shengen it may be our alliance to NATO? which in essence is another unelected body, but one with which most have no issue with.

[Kizzy]

You must be one of a kind, having no trouble travelling around the world.. or your travels have not been recent. But then you also think that "we do not live in dangerous times", according to one of your much earlier posts.

I've had trouble getting into the USA. I have been kept at immigration for a long time because I have Arabic stamps in my passport as I often travel to the Middle East for work. And I'm regularly checked going into Israel even though I do a lot of my work from there... again because I have Arabic stamps. The reason for this is that they understand that there is a terrorist problem and that the terrorists are almost exclusively Middle Eastern Muslims. We are not allowed to be any more vigilant than we already are because an unelected body dictates how we handle entry to and exit from this country.

I think you also attributed that quote to me at some point, I've had a nosy and can't find a post where DR has said anything of the sort. You may have misquoted.

[DemolitionRed]

You must be one of a kind, having no trouble travelling around the world.. or your travels have not been recent. But then you also think that "we do not live in dangerous times", according to one of your much earlier posts.

I've had trouble getting into the USA. I have been kept at immigration for a long time because I have Arabic stamps in my passport as I often travel to the Middle East for work. And I'm regularly checked going into Israel even though I do a lot of my work from there... again because I have Arabic stamps. The reason for this is that they understand that there is a terrorist problem and that the terrorists are almost exclusively Middle Eastern Muslims. We are not allowed to be any more vigilant than we already are because an unelected body dictates how we handle entry to and exit from this country.

I travel a lot and have travelled internationally very recently, including America. My old passport had Middle Eastern stamps in it because like you, I've spent a reasonable amount of time in the ME. I still had no problem getting into America but that was over five years ago. Still, its fairly unusual for English women to have Arabic or MD stamps in their passports.

The only problem I've ever had with border control is with my dog. Even with all his papers in order, we've had times when we suspected that wasn't going to be enough.

I believe we are just as likely to be hit by lightening as we are to be a victim of a bomb. That isn't naivety on my part, its statistics, so just as I wouldn't shelter under a tree in a lightening storm or visit high risk countries and stray off the beaten track, I just get on and enjoy life.

[DemolitionRed]

I think you also attributed that quote to me at some point, I've had a nosy and can't find a post where DR has said anything of the sort. You may have misquoted.

I think I once said that I don't suspect every Muslim woman wearing an abaya to be concealing a dagger.

I live in the Heart of London Kizzy, I walk amongst Muslims every single day, I shop in their shops, queue with them for buses and even ride on the tube with them and omg, I've even been known to ride in their taxis. Its like playing fecking Russian roulette every time I venture out:eek:....NOT

I do though, think we are living in dangerous times but my fears are more about the Neoliberal take over.

[Kizzy]

I think I once said that I don't suspect every Muslim woman wearing an abaya to be concealing a dagger.

I live in the Heart of London Kizzy, I walk amongst Muslims every single day, I shop in their shops, queue with them for buses and even ride on the tube with them and omg, I've even been known to ride in their taxis. Its like playing fecking Russian roulette every time I venture out:eek:....NOT

I do though, think we are living in dangerous times but my fears are more about the Neoliberal take over.

I saw the post in the MI5 thread, it was taken completely out of context from what was said as I see it DR.
Your comparison between 'dangerous times' here and in Syria was totally justified imo.

[Kizzy]

'Defence chiefs warn Britain's role in world will be diminished as it emerges that the Tories will not commit to spending 2 per cent of GDP on defence'

'He will reiterate the Conservative’s commitment to replacing all four of Britain’s nuclear submarines at a cost of £25 billion.'

It seems the best defence is attack... The savings of 4 billion to the EU as well as the 4 billion meant to be taken from the disabled will now have to be found elsewhere...or not at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11526287/Election-2015-Conservatives-will-not-commit-to-Nato-defence-target.html

[joeysteele]

£4.5 billion IS a lot of money, whichever way you twist it.

And no, I don't see one single reason to remain. Do you think cooperation between the security services would stop if we left? Of course not...

We should be in control of our own borders and of our own laws. If you are happy to have an unelected body dictate how we live here, I am not.

I wasn't twisting anything actually, just stating a fact that of all we pay to the EU the nett figure is 'not' in govt circles a huge amount of funds at all.
We throw half billions here there and everywhere in aid and whenever we get ourselves into conflict in other Countries such as Libya.

From that 'nett' figure as the move now s to finance rather than defence and dealing with terrorism, how much more of that 4.5 billion supposedly saved would then be offset by some,not all, companies removing bases ad investment in the UK if we leave.

I have no idea what level of cooperation will being place should we leave, can you guarantees even that,will the EU definitely leave in place all we operate now,if we leave, will all the other 27 Nations of the EU agree to that, will you assure us that 'will' be the case and not leave all to chance and thinking.
I am not prepared too.

My frustration looms from the fact no one from 'out' gives us any assurances, that even may be equal to, and for sure not be better than the assurances we see in place now, despite all the wrongs of past treaties and deals with the EU.

I don't see this as a vote for 'me' only, I am looking at my Country and the future generations of this Country, who I find most want to remain in.

If we leave and this all goes pear shaped after we do,that future generation/s will have far more to moan about against us as to those voting in this, than any problem we may at times have economically and financially as a Nation.


I am actually happy to have the EU parliament to who we send MEPs have a say at times in the UK as to social justice, workers rights and human rights too.
At times as Cameron said today things are not always got right but working through them is the way forward not being petty and running off home with the ball.
I really don't think a few irritating laws and controls actually in a major way dictate how we live in the UK,far more has changed in the UK from migration from outside the EU,not just from migration from within the EU.

Those things are things to be debated and reformed over the future and we may get further if the UK sent to the EU parliament,those who wished to work with it, rather than say UKIP, who despite getting their fat salaries from the EU only ever present the negatives.


Anyway,I asked the question,to you who engaged with others on here and myself as to the terrorists issue,would leaving the EU make us safer for sure, leave us the same or even possibly make us more at risk.
I got no answer again.
So I repeat again, I know there are risks now as to an IS incident in the UK,I am sure that will happen while in the EU just as I am sure it will if out.
I'd rather than,in that scenario not take any chance now and remain working solidly as a fill member of the EU helping make decisions as to the best ways forward.
On that issue, no reason at all to suppose we would do better alone or avoid any major incident.
Just no answers are ever forthcoming as to improvement in leaving the EU,so that is another reason I see no point of going through the uncertain upheaval of doing so.

Sadly you see no single reason to remain,which I find amazing as to yourself,I can see both negative and positives to both scenarios,however the negatives as to leaving outweigh the positives for me.

I am 24 but life has well and truly taught me already, few things are all black or white,that just about all things have grey areas and nothing is all good or all bad and for me that applies to being in the U or out of it.
However I would never change something that was there already for something no one can give me assurances of future success even such as we have in place now.

Please note.The figure I quoted should be approx 9 billion not 4.5 billion.

[Alf]

£4.5 billion 'nett' would not actually go that far Livia and also we have no idea as to what level of trading costs,tariffs and conditions would be imposed on the UK as to trading and other deals.
That quite frankly I believe, would see that 4.5 billion pretty much gone without really being able to help as to very much at all as to other issues in the UK.

I'd agree the reforming the law side of things as to the EU needs to be looked at but I will never see that as a reason to quit the EU after so many decades.
With more Nations in the EU I believe more can now be done as to reforming the EU anyway after Cameron has started the ball rolling in a small way.

However the responses at this time from you were with respect challenging the point of IS and security and indicating you felt the UK could be better and safer out the EU with closed borders.
That was what I was addressing at this moment in time.

However again, this is an instance very clearly as to where I and the Nation knows where we are in the EU as to the threats of IS,we know we are under threat from them at this time.

However with respect yet again you as an 'out' individual still cannot,(although you appear to dismiss being in the EU as beneficial in any way as to dealing with the threats of IS),say how better and safer or even 'if' we would be guaranteed any safer as to that issue out of the EU, rather than in.
Other than mentioning closed borders which really believe will not totally stop terrorists and groups like IS, getting here if they really want to and it will not stop the threats of any attacks or even actual attacks taking place eventually.
It was £8.5b net last week, you've taken £4b off

[Johnnyuk123]

Basically those in favour of staying in the EU are saying that in order for me to vote to leave the EU i need absolute guarantees. Well i have some news for you on that one........drum roll............
there are no guarantees either way you vote, that's life for yah!
The ones wanting to stay simply because of the unknown remind me of the situation of a beautiful young woman who's husband abuses and beats her daily, year in year out she takes those beatings, he calls her ugly, fat etc and she stays silent and never answers him back. He knows that this beautiful young woman is well and truly under his control. Then one day a new man comes along who doesn't hit her, he just see's a beautiful young woman and falls head over heals in love with her. He then plucks up the courage to ask her to leave her thug of a husband to start a new bruise free life with him and she says.....erm thanks but i'll stick with that thug of a husband of mine and continue to take daily beatings rather than risk taking a chance of real happiness with you.

[Alf]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8573932]Quite frankly for me what happened today makes me stronger as to staying in.QUOTE]
But you already wanted to stay in.

So I'm glad for you that you took something positive from the atrocities.

[joeysteele]

It was £8.5b net last week, you've taken £4b off


You are totally correct I did,the figure is indeed more like 8.5 to 9 billion.
I stand fully corrected on that.


I still stand by my view that even that amount would soon be eroded quickly if out and not really go anywhere where we would see a benefit from it.

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8573932]Quite frankly for me what happened today makes me stronger as to staying in.QUOTE]
But you already wanted to stay in.

So I'm glad for you that you took something positive from the atrocities.

I took nothing positive from the atrocities because there are no positives to take from it.

However, what the atrocities would make me feel more like doing is standing closer with Europe as most feelings do guide most to that way of thinking when disaster hits anywhere in the World.

No need at all for such pathetic sarcasm.
Also I said it made me stronger to staying in.
There is still a bit of me that would look at being out if I ever got concrete answers to the questions I ask from anyone from the out side.

However if all they can do is insult others like you have tried here,then good luck to you on that one as to people listening to you( whether you want them to or not).

[DemolitionRed]

Without trade agreements you can't have trade in or out of the country and at the moment, all our trade agreements are EU trade agreements which affects trade in Europe and every other country in the world but these agreements are European agreements, not singular countries or UK agreements.

It could take 10 years to put trade agreements in place and in that time there is no legal framework for trade to take place, which means British exporters would go out of business en masse.

The widget manufacturer in the UK who supplies a car manufacturer in Germany would suddenly discover that the car manufacturer in Germany is no longer ordering their parts because the generation of paperwork and port duties and custom agreements and declarations would make those wigits an unafordable hassle to the buyer. The buyer can simply sorce a new supplier within the EU.

That doesn't mean I'm not wary of the EU. If I thought for a moment that we could surstain ourselves on local production and restore our national economy, then I'd be going for the out vote. I can't stand this government but I also think the EU are trying to create a neo-liberal state and I also believe the EU is a puppet to Washington.

Its been predicted by a few political philosophers, that in the short run up to the vote on Europe, America will pump millions of US dollars into the “in” campaign. Its not happened yet but its starting to feel like it might and if it does, I will definately be changing my mind and voting to get out.

[joeysteele]

Basically those in favour of staying in the EU are saying that in order for me to vote to leave the EU i need absolute guarantees. Well i have some news for you on that one........drum roll............
there are no guarantees either way you vote, that's life for yah!
The ones wanting to stay simply because of the unknown remind me of the situation of a beautiful young woman who's husband abuses and beats her daily, year in year out she takes those beatings, he calls her ugly, fat etc and she stays silent and never answers him back. He knows that this beautiful young woman is well and truly under his control. Then one day a new man comes along who doesn't hit her, he just see's a beautiful young woman and falls head over heals in love with her. He then plucks up the courage to ask her to leave her thug of a husband to start a new bruise free life with him and she says.....erm thanks but i'll stick with that thug of a husband of mine and continue to take daily beatings rather than risk taking a chance of real happiness with you.

Not so, the only guarantees we know are from being in the EU, we know there are likely bad times to come, we know there will be recessions.
We know from our last 3 decades at least of being in the EU that we have been able to come through those recessions and difficult challenging times as full member.

Those are guarantees we have and that we would be also be helped if necessary too as well as working together with the EU to work through those difficult times.

We also have the guarantees in place that we can be successful, and are successful as full members as we have been over the last decades.

So those are guarantees there in place.We will be successful and overcome economic problems as we have for all that time despite many challenges and different govts.
Those are facts you always seem to avoid.

Now, with full respect where exactly are just your even solid assurances we could even do as well never mind do better than we have and are now.
In addition also your assurances we certainly would not do worse even.

That is a big difference from the in side to the out,it is easy just to dismiss all the in side say but if you do, to be credible, you have to come up with a better picture you can at least assure will be the case, with all new costings and conditions once out included.
As well as explaining just how on our own after so many decades we would be able to ride through economic challenges and would for sure, those investing in the UK to gain the best access to the EU through us, would they stay with us, if we had big problems and ended up struggling, knowing the EU would not assist us after we are out.

I think the domestic comparison is a poor one, that's just me however but here's another poor scenario from me this time.
Would you take a child out of a School you maybe didn't care much for but in which they were successful and then put them in a school you knew nothing about and could learn little about.
I certainly wouldn't.

[Johnnyuk123]

Not so, the only guarantees we know are from being in the EU, we know there are likely bad times to come, we know there will be recessions.
We know from our last 3 decades at least of being in the EU that we have been able to come through those recessions and difficult challenging times as full member.

Those are guarantees we have and that we would be also be helped if necessary too as well as working together with the EU to work through those difficult times.

We also have the guarantees in place that we can be successful, and are successful as full members as we have been over the last decades.

So those are guarantees there in place.We will be successful and overcome economic problems as we have for all that time despite many challenges and different govts.
Those are facts you always seem to avoid.

Now, with full respect where exactly are just your even solid assurances we could even do as well never mind do better than we have and are now.
In addition also your assurances we certainly would not do worse even.

That is a big difference from the in side to the out,it is easy just to dismiss all the in side say but if you do, to be credible, you have to come up with a better picture you can at least assure will be the case, with all new costings and conditions once out included.
As well as explaining just how on our own after so many decades we would be able to ride through economic challenges and would for sure, those investing in the UK to gain the best access to the EU through us, would they stay with us, if we had big problems and ended up struggling, knowing the EU would not assist us after we are out.

I think the domestic comparison is a poor one, that's just me however but here's another poor scenario from me this time.
Would you take a child out of a School you maybe didn't care much for but in which they were successful and then put them in a school you knew nothing about and could learn little about.
I certainly wouldn't.

I completely disagree with you.
The sooner we are out of it the better.

[joeysteele]

I completely disagree with you.
The sooner we are out of it the better.

That is of no surprise whatsoever.
I merely chose to respond to show the in guarantees of what has been, is, and will continue to be we stay.

As usual I got no answers to assurances of the terms tariffs, conditions to be imposed once out, any success or lack of it or how without the EU we would now work through as quickly as possible any difficulties that may come our way in the future.

Disagreeing with someone is all well and good and your right to do so but without the actual dealing with factual answers,that is really all you do.
Disagree and offer nothing as to a successful and worthwhile alternative from where the UK is now and has been for the last few decades.

So not only impossible to do so but in fact regrettably pointless to even try to debate on such terms.
Still remaining overall a success too.

[Johnnyuk123]

That is of no surprise whatsoever.
I merely chose to respond to show the in guarantees of what has been, is, and will continue to be we stay.

As usual I got no answers to assurances of the terms tariffs, conditions to be imposed once out, any success or lack of it or how without the EU we would now work through as quickly as possible any difficulties that may come our way in the future.

Disagreeing with someone is all well and good and your right to do so but without the actual dealing with factual answers,that is really all you do.
Disagree and offer nothing as to a successful and worthwhile alternative from where the UK is now and has been for the last few decades.

So not only impossible to do so but in fact regrettably pointless to even try to debate on such terms.
Still remaining overall a success too.

Forum rules state not to get personal. Please stick to the forum rules.
If you want to vote to stay in then by all means do so. That is your choice. But why post over and over again the same thing asking for guarantees when you already know the answer and your gonna vote to stay in regardless? Also come the 24th June the day after the vote and we stay IN who is to say that the EU will not come out with more demands for more money from the UK? Can YOU guarantee that the EU won't? No you can't. So banging on about wanting guarantees is all well and good but the reality is that there are NO guarantees whichever way it goes.

[Kizzy]

Forum rules state not to get personal. Please stick to the forum rules.
If you want to vote to stay in then by all means do so. That is your choice. But why post over and over again the same thing asking for guarantees when you already know the answer and your gonna vote to stay in regardless? Also come the 24th June the day after the vote and we stay IN who is to say that the EU will not come out with more demands for more money from the UK? Can YOU guarantee that the EU won't? No you can't. So banging on about wanting guarantees is all well and good but the reality is that there are NO guarantees whichever way it goes.

By the same token why quote someone simply to express you disagree with no counter?

[arista]

Its all up in the Air.

We Need 2 hour Debates
On all these channels
BBC ,ITV , Sky, Ch5, Ch4

[DemolitionRed]

Its all up in the Air.

We Need 2 hour Debates
On all these channels
BBC ,ITV , Sky, Ch5, Ch4

I agree Arista. We need more public question time debates.

[Kizzy]

Thank God we opted out of the Schengen agreement; if we hadn't I'm convinced that we would have had at least one Paris/Brussels style atrocity here. Border control is the biggest topic, as far as I can see, that makes people want to leave the EU. And I know a large proportion of terrorist recently have been home grown, but not exclusively and more IS people are arriving every day in the guise of refugees. If I was leading IS, I'd make sure that as many of my people as possible were among the refugees. And look at the freedom that Salah Abdeslam had to move backwards and forwards between Belgium and France. In a time of high terrorist risk, to continue to have open borders is r i d i c u l o u s.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2016/mar/23/we-welcomed-refugees-in-1945-we-cant-abandon-them-today-video

[MTVN]

It's a fair point whether Schengen has made extremists work easier but then we're not a part of Schengen so its all academic in our relationship to the EU. So atm we avoid the murkiness of open borders while having the huge benefits of shared intelligence and cross border collaboration on security which is largely a product of the EU. I know which vote in June will make me feel safer.

[joeysteele]

Forum rules state not to get personal. Please stick to the forum rules.
If you want to vote to stay in then by all means do so. That is your choice. But why post over and over again the same thing asking for guarantees when you already know the answer and your gonna vote to stay in regardless? Also come the 24th June the day after the vote and we stay IN who is to say that the EU will not come out with more demands for more money from the UK? Can YOU guarantee that the EU won't? No you can't. So banging on about wanting guarantees is all well and good but the reality is that there are NO guarantees whichever way it goes.

Excuse me,I am fully aware of forum rules and to my knowledge I have never broken any or been told I have by any moderator,perhaps one or more of them would enlighten me as to how I have here with you since you,in my view, unjustly accuse me of same..
I am responding to you as you have to me so it is personal and no way have I even made the slightest insult towards yourself whatsoever.

In answer to your question,no I could not guarantee the EU may ask for more funds although the PM you admire so greatly has stated we will be likely in real terms paying less in the future.
Whether he is right on that I cannot guarantee.

However,even if we did some time in the future pay more to the EU, which I think and hope we will not. I do know we will still be as successful and maybe even more than we are now as full members and that any difficulties economically that may arise will be worked through together with the EU.

I also know for sure that there will be no tariffs on our trade and no other conditions as to that trade or any other conditions because we are still full members.
I can guarantee that because that is how it has been for us as members these last decades and so it will continue, no reason at all for it not to.

I can also guarantee no further treaty deals with the EU that the UK does not want since our Parliament has put into law that any new treaty from the EU cannot be signed unless the UK voters agree to it in a referendum.
We on the in side can also, on the PMs word,guarantee the UK will not be expected to nor will join the Euro.

That is quite a fair amount of guarantees the in side can point to and happily be able to give,now with respect again, where are yours?

As to repeating myself over and over, well on this thread there is a lot of that on both sides. it is a debate after all and that happens as in politics,serious issues and even general elections the same message hammered home time and time again.

You were on about no guarantees from anywhere and also not the in side, so again for your benefit, I listed the ones I have pointed out time and time again over this thread and as I do to many people I talk to off tibb too.
I also don't understand why the out side get so edgy over being asked for assurances for our future out of the EU, surely they should at least have some concrete ideas.
I do keep asking those questions however as I have had no answers yet and one day someone may just offer some that are credible if I keep asking.

That I doubt however is actually breaking forum rules but then that is for a moderator to advise me on I would respectfully say.

[the truth]

The European nations are all going bankrupt apart from Germany Austria, even france is struggling with 11% unemployment. the rest is a disaster,the EU is a disaster for all businesses , part from corporations. that's why majority of small businesses utterly crucified by insane layers of rules, red tape, burocracy and laws...want to leave and the corporations want us to stay. We are not safer in the EU , its amirage, are greece safer, Iceland, Belgium? france? Italy who had their democratically elected government replaced by the german chancellor? we are in greater danger than ever, decisions can never be made, you have to run it past 500+ million and 30 nations, everytime you want to change a light bulb....TTIB and NAFTA are merging to take over Europe and we are letting them, simple as that. THE EU enslaves us forever.

[Livia]

It's a fair point whether Schengen has made extremists work easier but then we're not a part of Schengen so its all academic in our relationship to the EU. So atm we avoid the murkiness of open borders while having the huge benefits of shared intelligence and cross border collaboration on security which is largely a product of the EU. I know which vote in June will make me feel safer.

It's well-known that the UK does not share all our intelligence with the EU and that our Security Services refer to the EU security system as a colander, ie: it leaks.

[Kizzy]

I'd say that's an out moded view, how would our security services function as effectively without the European arrest warrant?

[Livia]

I'd say that's an out moded view, how would our security services function as effectively without the European arrest warrant?

I'm talking about the security services not just the police.

[bots]

It's well-known that the UK does not share all our intelligence with the EU and that our Security Services refer to the EU security system as a colander, ie: it leaks.

Absolutely, they would never jeapordise their own operations. Any shared security details wrt terrorists will be related to globally known terrorists only

[kirklancaster]

"QUITTING EU WOULD MAKE BRITAIN SAFER SAYS FORMER MI6 CHIEF "

Sir Richard Dearlove suggests Brexit would make it easier to deport terrorists and control our borders. The former head of MI6 demolished the security case for staying in the EU. Sir Richard Dearlove said Brexit would make it easier to deport terrorists and added that British intelligence services 'give much more' than they get in return.

Washington was a more important counter-terror ally than the EU, he said.

WHO KNOWS BEST - THE 'REMAIN IN' GUESS MERCHANTS? OR THE FORMER HEAD OF MI6?


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3506991/UK-safer-Europe-says-former-MI6-chief-Sir-Richard-Dearlove-suggests-Brexit-make-easier-deport-terrorists.html#ixzz43qdOwF1i

IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE AND THIS COUNTRY'S FUTURE - VOTE OUT.

[Johnnyuk123]

"QUITTING EU WOULD MAKE BRITAIN SAFER SAYS FORMER MI6 CHIEF "

Sir Richard Dearlove suggests Brexit would make it easier to deport terrorists and control our borders. The former head of MI6 demolished the security case for staying in the EU. Sir Richard Dearlove said Brexit would make it easier to deport terrorists and added that British intelligence services 'give much more' than they get in return.

Washington was a more important counter-terror ally than the EU, he said.

WHO KNOWS BEST - THE 'REMAIN IN' GUESS MERCHANTS? OR THE FORMER HEAD OF MI6?
]
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3506991/UK-safer-Europe-says-former-MI6-chief-Sir-Richard-Dearlove-suggests-Brexit-make-easier-deport-terrorists.html#ixzz43qdOwF1i

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3506991/UK-safer-Europe-says-former-MI6-chief-Sir-Richard-Dearlove-suggests-Brexit-make-easier-deport-terrorists.html

IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE AND THIS COUNTRY'S FUTURE - VOTE OUT.

I value my future and will vote out to protect myself and my loved ones.:thumbs:

[Kizzy]

Getting rid of the Human Rights Act would be a prerequisite then naturally?

[Kizzy]

I'm talking about the security services not just the police.

How would either function effectively?

[joeysteele]

If that is how this former MI6 chief feels and sees it, he has every right to say his piece and make his contribution to the debate.

However times have moved on since he was in such a position,certainly as to the likes of IS,and my guess would be of those in the know 'now' few would likely support his position.

I personally don't disagree with him totally and wouldn't dismiss all he says as he clearly has had great experience.
These are people I would give some attention to.

[MTVN]

It's well-known that the UK does not share all our intelligence with the EU and that our Security Services refer to the EU security system as a colander, ie: it leaks.

Maybe so and I'm sure that would always be the case, but I also don't think it can be denied that the EU has facilitated closer cross-border collaboration on security through the intelligence that we do share and through organisations like Europol

[Kizzy]

as seen today not sharing information is risky too, it must be quite frustrating to find out after a terrorist attack that there was intelligence on individuals that was not shared?

[Northern Monkey]

It's well-known that the UK does not share all our intelligence with the EU and that our Security Services refer to the EU security system as a colander, ie: it leaks.

Also intelligence sharing is based in bi-lateral agreements with individual countries and nothing to do with the EU(according to The Daily Politics).These would continue in or out of the EU.

[DemolitionRed]

Well blow me down with a feather, the Americans project of fear has started
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35808955

[Kizzy]

Well it could, if we're not sharing intelligence efficiently whilst in the EU then NATO is within it's rights to question whether that could worsen if we leave.

[arista]

"QUITTING EU WOULD MAKE BRITAIN SAFER SAYS FORMER MI6 CHIEF "

Sir Richard Dearlove suggests Brexit would make it easier to deport terrorists and control our borders. The former head of MI6 demolished the security case for staying in the EU. Sir Richard Dearlove said Brexit would make it easier to deport terrorists and added that British intelligence services 'give much more' than they get in return.

Washington was a more important counter-terror ally than the EU, he said.

WHO KNOWS BEST - THE 'REMAIN IN' GUESS MERCHANTS? OR THE FORMER HEAD OF MI6?


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3506991/UK-safer-Europe-says-former-MI6-chief-Sir-Richard-Dearlove-suggests-Brexit-make-easier-deport-terrorists.html#ixzz43qdOwF1i

IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE AND THIS COUNTRY'S FUTURE - VOTE OUT.


Yes Kirk the MI6 man
is top guy.
He spoke the truth.

[arista]

Well blow me down with a feather, the Americans project of fear has started
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35808955


Its None of their Fecking Business

[DemolitionRed]

Its None of their Fecking Business

Looks like they are making it their business Arista.

[joeysteele]

Its None of their Fecking Business

I think since we have companies from the USA investing in jobs and bases here in the UK in order to gain access to the EU then the USA has a right in that instance to at least say what its view is of what they see as the better decision for them as to this referendum.

I said before, the Indian leader has said the UK should stay in the EU as I understand China has too.
So I see no issue with the USA,our supposed closest ally making its view known.

That said any major possible interference in the process is not acceptable.

[bots]

I think its important to be aware of the facts so that voters can make an informed decision, and that includes facts related to future foreign country investment. However, we need to make sure that their comments are related to our best interests, not theirs, and that's a more difficult area to get a clear view of

[DemolitionRed]

I think its important to be aware of the facts so that voters can make an informed decision, and that includes facts related to future foreign country investment. However, we need to make sure that their comments are related to our best interests, not theirs, and that's a more difficult area to get a clear view of

I wholeheartedly agree but I don't think the U.S. have our best interest at heart...not for a moment. In fact, if anything, this will sway my vote in the other direction.

[Kizzy]

There are so many contributory factors and we're getting little or no real information other than scare mongering from both sides... and time is marching on, how is anyone meant to make a considered decision? It's impossible.

[joeysteele]

I don't think anything anyone or what other leaders of Nations say would now sway me from the path I have chosen,I have outlined clearly how I see the EU and the UK being successful in it.

What I cannot see is how that success could be nurtured,sustained or bettered out of the EU and there are absolutely no convincing answers from any part of the out organisations as to that either,in my view.

So for me it's what I see is best for the UK and the future generations of the UK after we vote and although I accept those on the out and in sides, leaders of Nations or organisations in the UK can and should make their input,none of them will likely alter my thinking now because of absolutely no costings etc as I have said endless times before on this thread so won't again.

I know where we are in the EU now but still have not a clue as to where we could be or will be going if out.
That is really all that matters to me not what any Nation,organisation or Leader says.

I do however feel really sad and bad too for the heavily undecided,who really are getting an almighty and very bad misrepresentation of the EU from the out organisations and virtually nothing really as to help their decision making from the in organisations either.
That is the really disgraceful element to this whole campaign so far

Which is why I am just looking at how things actually are now for the UK rather than trying to work out just what may or may not happen if we vote to leave.
The former I know a good bit as to and the latter I know really nothing at all concrete, which would benefit the future of the UK.
Especially as our future has benefited over the last decades in the EU.

If I was one of the undecided,I really think I would be struggling massively to get any real info to help my decision to be honest.

[bots]

The campaign to pull Britain out of the European Union has swung into the lead, according to the latest polls.

With exactly three months to go until the referendum, an ICM survey showed support for Brexit rose by two points to 43 per cent, while the Remain campaign fell to 41 per cent. A "poll of polls" last week revealed the In campaign's lead had narrowed, with 49 per cent of voters backing Brexit and 51 per cent wanting to stay in the EU.


The survey, carried out between 18 and 20 March, puts support for an exit at its highest level since ICM started its referendum tracker in May 2015, says Reuters.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-tory-row-puts-out-campaign-in-the-lead

---------

Its going to be close!

[Cherie]

The campaign to pull Britain out of the European Union has swung into the lead, according to the latest polls.

With exactly three months to go until the referendum, an ICM survey showed support for Brexit rose by two points to 43 per cent, while the Remain campaign fell to 41 per cent. A "poll of polls" last week revealed the In campaign's lead had narrowed, with 49 per cent of voters backing Brexit and 51 per cent wanting to stay in the EU.


The survey, carried out between 18 and 20 March, puts support for an exit at its highest level since ICM started its referendum tracker in May 2015, says Reuters.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-tory-row-puts-out-campaign-in-the-lead

---------

Its going to be close!

I honestly think Britain will vote out

[joeysteele]

The campaign to pull Britain out of the European Union has swung into the lead, according to the latest polls.

With exactly three months to go until the referendum, an ICM survey showed support for Brexit rose by two points to 43 per cent, while the Remain campaign fell to 41 per cent. A "poll of polls" last week revealed the In campaign's lead had narrowed, with 49 per cent of voters backing Brexit and 51 per cent wanting to stay in the EU.


The survey, carried out between 18 and 20 March, puts support for an exit at its highest level since ICM started its referendum tracker in May 2015, says Reuters.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-tory-row-puts-out-campaign-in-the-lead

---------

Its going to be close!

I can see a narrow out vote being the result.

I feel sure those who want out will near all vote whereas those who want to stay in, are not likely to have more than two thirds turnout to do so.

I also firmly believe still most regions and major cities of England will vote to stay in,Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales will vote to stay in maybe the latter 2 more narrowly than Scotland.
However I do believe the far South of England will carry this whole vote and bring about an out result.

For me,likely,the way the result is in the end when it gets broken down and comes about, will be as disastrous and chaos ensuing from it, just as an out result itself will be too for the UK and its future..

For sure,more and more in the circumstances above I expect an out result now.

[bots]

With 16% not accounted for (undecided?) it could go either way even if one side appears to get a 10% lead. I can't see either side building a lead bigger than 10% so its going to be a fun day come counting time.

[kirklancaster]

I honestly think Britain will vote out

I hope so, and that is EXACTLY how the UK SHOULD vote if TRUTH and FACTS and EVIDENCE are heeded, because there is not ONE valid reason to remain in.

[AnnieK]

This whole thing makes my head hurt.....I honestly don't know what I'm going to do.

[Johnnyuk123]

I hope so, and that is EXACTLY how the UK SHOULD vote if TRUTH and FACTS and EVIDENCE are heeded, because there is not ONE valid reason to remain in.

And we save £50 million a day!

[joeysteele]

This whole thing makes my head hurt.....I honestly don't know what I'm going to do.

For anyone undecided and who is bothered about it, it must make their heads hurt,especially if they really would like to be able to make an informed choice as you appear to want to do.

It is really annoying even to me, who has their mind made up already,at the lack of strong positive info that all can understand and take on board, not being presented by the in organisation who are in the know, far more than anyone else.
For me personally,it is enough for me to look at the UK in the EU now and see we have been successful but there is lots I have little, and no idea as to, that tells me the complexities of the EU workings.

However as I have said and asked for repeatedly,all the negative only stuff against the EU being presented by the out organisations with no costings whatsoever that are substantiated, is equally massively annoying.
They keep saying we will save this much a day, a week, a year.
Well we will pay around £9 billion less to the EU but we then also need to be told what costs,tariffs and all other conditions, not only with the EU as to trade we will have to negotiate and have but with all other Nations too outside the EU.

That £9 billion, like many other billions our govts have at their disposal would in my view disappear very quickly and probably not to the benefits of the UK that much really.
Meanwhile we will we still have to trade with the EU, accept whatever costs and tariffs they put on us once out and also still be under several of their conditions, such as free movement of EU citizens.

That is why in the absence of any picture of costs etc once out from the out organisations, I will vote to stay put,at least knowing all the costs and conditions we have now in place and not taking risks with no plans whatsoever as to any costings or conditions even.

I always felt that no way could a fair balanced debate on the EU be presented, in this rushed fashion of now only until June I fear that is probably impossible.
The media is biased,then to add insult to injury both camps, in and out, are not telling the truth at all, giving really no important info, and one side is presenting the EU as near perfect,which it is not,while the other is only ever presenting the bad side of the EU as if no good side exists.

There are many benefits in my view to being out too as there are bad,without accurate and substantiated costings however the claims of having more money in real terms being out of the EU, become meaningless since we have no idea how much of it will in the end, end up being spare hard cash.

My guess is, virtually none in the end scenario,just my view.

I really wish you the best of luck AnnieK, in your search for some info to help you and your decision.
I would hate to be in your position as a really undecided but obviously caring voter as to this very important issue.

[Cherie]

This whole thing makes my head hurt.....I honestly don't know what I'm going to do.

Me too I really feel like not voting... que sera sera :hee:

[Cherie]

There are so many contributory factors and we're getting little or no real information other than scare mongering from both sides... and time is marching on, how is anyone meant to make a considered decision? It's impossible.


That's it in a nutshell Kizzy, for those who are passionate for in/out it's not a issue but given it looks like the fence sitters could swing this, both sides need to put a bit of effort in

[joeysteele]

Me too I really feel like not voting... que sera sera :hee:

I am more and more convinced that the undecided will just in the end not bother as to the bulk of them.
As I am,like you, almost sure it will be a vote to leave too.

I am in touch with 20 people I know who are undecided and already 8 of them have said, no way are they getting the right picture from either side and so they are now just going to ignore the whole process and not vote.

I said years ago, this referendum could cause us to sleepwalk out of the EU, I personally think it will be a decision regretted once it is too late and we see what then comes about.
Too late then.

[Alf]

You can not have independent Countries inside one Union, it doesn't work.

We currently have unelected people who have no interest but power, making our laws for us.

We're basically giving ourselves a Prison sentence.

[Johnnyuk123]

You can not have independent Countries inside one Union, it doesn't work.

We currently have unelected people who have no interest but power making our laws for us.

I agree. The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs them. The sooner we get out the better.

[joeysteele]

With 16% not accounted for (undecided?) it could go either way even if one side appears to get a 10% lead. I can't see either side building a lead bigger than 10% so its going to be a fun day come counting time.

It will be a fascinating results programme as to all the breakdowns of how Countries,areas and cities actually voted.
That is one thing to say for this referendum.

[arista]

The Fella is live on LBC
https://twitter.com/StigAbell?

Talking good sense about Cutting Foreign Aid

One Caller said
we the public should be asked.

[bots]

It will be a fascinating results programme as to all the breakdowns of how Countries,areas and cities actually voted.
That is one thing to say for this referendum.

The SNP didn't judge the mood of the nation correctly with respect to independence, so they are even less likely to get it right on whether they will vote in or out of the EU :laugh: I don't see the Scottish result being much different from the rest of the UK

[Kizzy]

Doh!! :joker:

The Ukip-backed campaign to pull Britain out of the EU has recruited EU migrants to staff its call centre despite telling voters such low-skilled workers “deprive British citizens of jobs”.

Leave.EU employs four phone bank staff from EU countries including Slovakia. Their job is to rally voters across the UK to back Brexit. The appointments come despite Leave.EU claiming that “as the world’s fifth biggest economy, the UK is well placed to supply its own labour”.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/27/ukip-backed-leave-eu-brexit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks

[Cherie]

Doh!! :joker:

The Ukip-backed campaign to pull Britain out of the EU has recruited EU migrants to staff its call centre despite telling voters such low-skilled workers “deprive British citizens of jobs”.

Leave.EU employs four phone bank staff from EU countries including Slovakia. Their job is to rally voters across the UK to back Brexit. The appointments come despite Leave.EU claiming that “as the world’s fifth biggest economy, the UK is well placed to supply its own labour”.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/27/ukip-backed-leave-eu-brexit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks


:facepalm:

[Kizzy]

VI5mlWx0sx0

[arista]

From the LBC Live debate
a Fella in East London, lost his job, and now his landlord
wants him out , could be to convert his falt into 2 or 3 flats.
His Council can not give him a home
because he is not a refugee.

That Stinks
its no wonder so many want out of the EU.

[Kizzy]

From the LBC Live debate
a Fella in East London, lost his job, and now his landlord
wants him out , could be to convert his falt into 2 or 3 flats.
His Council can not give him a home
because he is not a refugee.

That Stinks
its no wonder so many want out of the EU.

How would being out of the EU alter that situation?

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/3/29/455859/default/v2/mail-1-992x558.jpg

[arista]

How would being out of the EU alter that situation?


The fella said then he could get a home

[bots]

From the LBC Live debate
a Fella in East London, lost his job, and now his landlord
wants him out , could be to convert his falt into 2 or 3 flats.
His Council can not give him a home
because he is not a refugee.

That Stinks
its no wonder so many want out of the EU.

The EU don't dictate to us how many or if we should take refugees, so it has nothing to do with being in europe or not

[arista]

The EU don't dictate to us how many or if we should take refugees, so it has nothing to do with being in europe or not


Bollocks theses are Illegals
that broke into our nation
Then take a home

That British Fella can not Have


Out of The EU
they get sent back

[Johnnyuk123]

I blame labour and their open door immigration policy for all of this mess that they left us to clean up.:nono:

[Alf]

VI5mlWx0sx0Cameron say's we're safer, so maybe he could explain what the massive rise in cctv is for, or the massive rise in School shootings and stabbing's, or the massive rise in fatal gang culture, or rise in terrorist attacks.

And about prices, you hear stories from older people who used to have a night out on a £1 and still have money left for fish and chips on the way home, you now need £100-£200 for a night out. And to go and watch your local football team for 90 minutes a week, it costs a days and to some people 2 days wages. The cost of Christmas is ridiculous and through the roof.

So don't give us no bull Dave, just tell us the real reason you want in, I don't think him telling the truth would do him any favours.

[DemolitionRed]

Cameron say's we're safer, so maybe he could explain what the massive rise in cctv is for, or the massive rise in School shootings and stabbing's, or the massive rise in fatal gang culture, or rise in terrorist attacks.

And about prices, you hear stories from older people who used to have a night out on a £1 and still have money left for fish and chips on the way home, you now need £100-£200 for a night out. And to go and watch your local football team, it costs a days and to some people 2 days wages. The cost of Christmas is ridiculous and through the roof.

So don't give us no bull Dave, just tell us the real reason you want in, I don't think him telling the truth would do him any favours.

Camerons government have made massive cuts to police departments, fire departments and UK border agencies whilst extending the powers of G4S.

Who is claiming Britain has a massive rise in terrorism and school shootings?

[Alf]

Camerons government have made massive cuts to police departments, fire departments and UK border agencies whilst extending the powers of G4S.

Who is claiming Britain has a massive rise in terrorism and school shootings?
The facts are claiming it.

[DemolitionRed]

The facts are claiming it.

But they aren't. When was the last bomb let off in the UK by terrorists and when was the last gun killing spree in a British school?

If you compare bombings in the UK between 1972 and 89 and bombings from 89 to date, we have only had one major incident which was the 7/7 bombing.

[Kizzy]

Bollocks theses are Illegals
that broke into our nation
Then take a home

That British Fella can not Have


Out of The EU
they get sent back

How do you know? If we destabilise anywhere in the future we may again be called on to shoulder our share of any peoples displaced.
In or out of the EU.

[MTVN]

The facts are really that we are safer than we've ever been in this country. I thought it was the Remain camp who were 'Project Fear' but here we are being told that the EU is to blame for mass crime waves, gang culture, school shootings and more expensive nights out and football matches!

[Kizzy]

Know who wants brexit? those who want to usher in the new world order quicker... I know this because I watch Thomas the tank.

[kirklancaster]

But they aren't. When was the last bomb let off in the UK by terrorists and when was the last gun killing spree in a British school?

If you compare bombings in the UK between 1972 and 89 and bombings from 89 to date, we have only had one major incident which was the 7/7 bombing.

I agree - What a wonderful testament to the skill and profficiency of our Intelligence Services in keeping one step ahead of these murdering scum and keeping us safe.

Or are you somehow suggesting that ISIS and the like have a 'soft spot' for we Brits and are deliberately not targeting us?

[kirklancaster]

Know who wants brexit? those who want to usher in the new world order quicker... I know this because I watch Thomas the tank.

You are only confirming what the rest of us have long suspected; that the source for most of your opinions is Thomas The Tank Engine.

Thank You for being so honest.

[kirklancaster]

How do you know? If we destabilise anywhere in the future we may again be called on to shoulder our share of any peoples displaced.
In or out of the EU.

:shrug: Arista CLEARLY stated "Illegals" - which are still illegal in or out of the EU, so your post is redundant.

[Kizzy]

You are only confirming what the rest of us have long suspected; that the source for most of your opinions is Thomas The Tank Engine.

Thank You for being so honest.

Is this you being funny? Let me explain...

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/thomas-the-tank-engine-is-becoming-more-diverse-and-daily-mail-readers-are-absolutely-fuming--byxTDAtC4gZ

Why are these new 'friends' not European?

[joeysteele]

The facts are really that we are safer than we've ever been in this country. I thought it was the Remain camp who were 'Project Fear' but here we are being told that the EU is to blame for mass crime waves, gang culture, school shootings and more expensive nights out and football matches!

Exactly.

Again not borne out with facts and while spouting out this sensationalism, there are still no answers again from them at all as to the real questions that need answering too from the out camp.

[bots]

Bollocks theses are Illegals
that broke into our nation
Then take a home

That British Fella can not Have


Out of The EU
they get sent back

What I said is not bollocks. Illegal immigrants will still be exactly the same problem in or out of europe too. Do you think they will say ... the UK is no longer in the EU so we won't go there now? Really?

There is plenty of genuine information available, what you are saying is bollocks :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Is this you being funny? Let me explain...

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/thomas-the-tank-engine-is-becoming-more-diverse-and-daily-mail-readers-are-absolutely-fuming--byxTDAtC4gZ

Why are these new 'friends' not European?

Seriously Kizzy - and at the risk of incurring another warning or infraction for saying so - I really do not have a clue what point you are making and what you mean by; "Why are these new 'friends' not European?".

Perhaps you will explain so I can respond accordingly?

[kirklancaster]

Any serious look back through this thread will prove that the ONLY facts and CORROBORATED opinions hail from those of us who want OUT.

The 'IN' brigade have offered NOTHING but unqualified, wildly misinformed OPINION which is NOT borne out by the FACTS.

[Kizzy]

Seriously Kizzy - and at the risk of incurring another warning or infraction for saying so - I really do not have a clue what point you are making and what you mean by; "Why are these new 'friends' not European?".

Perhaps you will explain so I can respond accordingly?

It's quite clear, the new 'friends' Thomas has are not European. As in I say we may soon be aligning more closely with BRIC countries, this choice foreshadows that prospect

[kirklancaster]

It's quite clear, the new 'friends' Thomas has are not European. As in I say we may soon be aligning more closely with BRIC countries, this choice foreshadows that prospect

Oh, I understand where you are coming from now. Thank you.

[Niamh.]

Any serious look back through this thread will prove that the ONLY facts and CORROBORATED opinions hail from those of us who want OUT.

The 'IN' brigade have offered NOTHING but unqualified, wildly misinformed OPINION which is NOT borne out by the FACTS.

Kirk, can you please stop attacking/belittling other posters for not holding the same opinion as you. How difficult is it to just argue the topic of the thread without bringing other posters into it?

ETA : This applies everyone, not just Kirk

[Alf]

The facts are really that we are safer than we've ever been in this country. I thought it was the Remain camp who were 'Project Fear' but here we are being told that the EU is to blame for mass crime waves, gang culture, school shootings and more expensive nights out and football matches!How are we safer than we've ever been?

If we we're safer than we've ever been, then why is the terror threat to this Country currently severe?

Why is it at severe?

I'd say, the free movement of the EU, and inability to control our own borders is why.

[arista]

feck me the CBI Bitch
Project Fear.

she Stutters talking bollocks
Not impartial - she is Criminal

ref: BBC NEWSHD mins ago

[Tom4784]

Leaving just isn't the right thing to do especially with this government, it's reactionary and it's going to benefit the Tories more than anyone else.

I've not seen a single argument that's convinced me that it's a good idea to leave. I'll be voting to stay come the referendum.

[arista]

Leaving just isn't the right thing to do especially with this government, it's reactionary and it's going to benefit the Tories more than anyone else.

I've not seen a single argument that's convinced me that it's a good idea to leave. I'll be voting to stay come the referendum.



We still waiting for them.
BBC not good.


Ch4HD needs a 2 hour Live Debate

[arista]

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/8133/production/_89057033_observer3.jpg

Leave in the Lead
this paper says

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/3/456628/default/v1/gettyimages-516310164-1-736x414.jpg

Nice Mugs

[kirklancaster]

THE WONDERFULLY WARM UNITY OF THE EU BROTHERHOOD # 1:

FRENCH FARMERS HIJACK BRITISH LORRIES


A mob of 200 furious French farmers hijack a convoy of seven British lorries and throw their cargo of £200,000 worth of fish in the road as dispute over foreign food imports takes a vicious turn.

Shocking attack took place on a rural road in Brittany in north west France
200 men set up a roadblock using farm vehicles, hay bales and tyres
British lorry rivers fought back as farmers tried to seize their documents
But they couldn't protect their 140 tonne load of fish, which was scattered on the road and covered in diesel to ensure it couldn't be eaten
A mob of 200 furious French farmers have hijacked a convoy of seven British lorries and covered the £200,000 worth of fish they were transporting from the Scottish Highland in diesel.
The shocking midnight attack took place on a rural road in Brittany in the north west of the country, with farmers using agricultural vehicles, bales of hay and tyres to build a road block.

The organised French criminals then swarmed over the trucks and used forklifts to tip the fish boxes onto the road before destroying about 140 tonnes of food with diesel - leaving the innocent lorry drivers terrified that their vehicles would be set alight.

The farmers are believed to have carried out the attack in protest at their livelihoods being hit by low food prices in France, which they blame on cheap foreign imports.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173410/Mob-200-furious-French-farmers-hijack-convoy-seven-British-lorries-throw-cargo-200-000-worth-fish-road-dispute-foreign-food-imports-takes-vicious-turn.html

EUROPEAN UNION?

WHO ARE YOU REMAIN SUPPORTERS TRYING TO KID?
__________________

[kirklancaster]

THE WONDERFULLY WARM UNITY OF THE EU BROTHERHOOD # 2:

FURIOUS FRENCH WINE MAKERS HIJACK SPANISH TANKERS, POURING 90,000 BOTTLES OF WINE DOWN THE DRAIN.

Wine makers in southwestern France have hijacked five tankers full of Spanish wine on the border, pouring the equivalent of 90,000 bottles of red and white down the drain in protest at “unfair competition”.

Cheers erupted as around around 150 furious vintners from the Aude and Pyénées-Orientales departments unscrewed the cap on two tankers at Le Boulou, close to the Mediterranean town of Perpignan and less than ten miles from Spain, and emptied their contents onto the motorway on Monday.

Three other Spanish vehicles were allowed to leave with their tanks half empty after having the words "vin non conforme" (non-compliant wine) daubed on their sides. Local police looked on at the “social action”, while French vintners took samples to check for fraudulent wine.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/05/furious-french-wine-makers-hijack-spanish-tankers-pouring-90000/

EUROPEAN UNION?

WHO ARE YOU REMAIN SUPPORTERS TRYING TO KID?

[kirklancaster]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyX0LkvMC4brBSPbpq3KumkELCCTHfk dSVqIDRNlB11e4RTUN-YA

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE

23rd OCTOBER 2014 - THE FINANCIALLY STRUGGLING INEPT, CORRUPT EU, AMBUSHES THE UK GOVERNMENT WITH SURPRISE DEMAND FOR AN EXTRA £1.7 BILLION POUNDS ON TOP OF OUR MASSIVE MULTI-BILLION POUNDS ANNUAL CONTRIBUTION, BECAUSE; THE UK's ECONOMY HAS PERFORMED BETTER THAN THE OTHER AILING ECONOMIES IN EUROPE SINCE 1995, AND THEY ARROGANTLY GIVE US ONLY UNTIL 1st DECEMBER TO PAY IT.

24th OCTOBER 2014 - DAVID CAMERON SAID; "BRITAIN WILL REFUSE TO PAY A COMPLETELY UNNACCEPTABLE AMOUNT BILL OF £1.7 BILLION TO THE EUROPEAN UNION"

The Prime Minister hit out at the bill and spoke of his anger at the “appalling” way Britain has been treated by the European Commission.

He said that “it certainly doesn’t help” the chances of Britain remaining in the EU after an in-out referendum due to be held in 2017.

Thumping the table with his fist, a visibly furious Mr Cameron said: “I'm not paying that bill on December 1. It is not going to happen.”

Speaking in Brussels, Mr Cameron said: "This is completely unacceptable.
It is an unacceptable way for this organisation to work - to suddenly present a bill like this for such a vast sum of money with so little time to pay it. And it is an unacceptable way to treat one of the biggest contributors to the European Union.

"It is an appalling way to behave. I am not paying that bill on December 1. If people think I am they have got another thing coming."


6th NOVEMBER 2014 - CHANCELLOR GEORGE 'PINNOCHIO' OSBORNE CLAIMED "A FAMOUS VICTORY" IN FORCING THE EU TO ACCEPT JUST HALF OF THEIR £1.7 BILLION POUND RANSOM DEMAND

The Chancellor struck the landmark deal at a meeting of EU finance ministers in Brussels.

16th SEPTEMBER 2015- THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION CONFIRMS THAT THE UK 'QUIETLY' PAID IN FULL THE £1.7 BILLION POUNDS SURCHARGE

YOU CANNOT TRUST OUR LYING GOVERNMENT TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH ABOUT THE EU - BECAUSE IF THEY DID, YOU WOULD VOTE TO LEAVE THAT CORRUPT, FESTERING MESS - AND THEY WANT TO REMAIN IN BECAUSE THEY PROFIT BY OUR MEMBERSHIP AT YOUR EXPENSE.

[joeysteele]

We all know what has gone in as to the past in the EU, old stories are not the,in my view, good basis to build up any anti EU info on.
We know we pay too much, I say we paytoo much too,although it is only approx £9billion nett not a really massive sum as to our economy's standards.

Too much in my view definitely but it is all well and good harping on about past issues but what people need to be told is the real, even approximate, nett costs of all trade deals costs, tariffs and all other conditions with the EU and indeed other Nations once out.

Going back to 2014 and presenting just anti EU rhetoric over and over again with no real answers to the questions as to out on costings, can only leave the undecided with the suspicion that a) the out organisations 'cannot' detail the approximate nett costs and conditions of all deals once out,which is really bad when the issue is so important, or 2) that they 'will not' perhaps because those costs and conditions could be worse than what is in place now,and they should be a worrying thought for anyone voting in this referendum.

Either scenario is and should be bad for the out organisations if they fail to really detail an spell out those things rather than dig up old anti EU rhetoric wile avoiding all the time those costs and conditions once out issues.

It is now that is important and the future,not what has gone on as to the past decades as to the EU that out govts of both parties have subscribed to over those decades.
However, all they have subscribed to as to the EU has still left us to be a successful Nation.

In the full absence of real and detailed nett costings to the alternative to being in, then again I state,things could be likely only be worse and the only real answer we have at present it seems for me personally at any rate,from 'all' out organisations and the media is that things are very unlikely to be certain,secure or better once out since they have no figures of any real detail or substantiation to present at all.


I will possibly be got at for repeating a bit of myself again but since all I am seeing as to being out is old stories and the only negative statistics as to anti EU rhetoric with nothing being accepted as being beneficial from the EU,then sometimes it becomes necessary to balance things and drag things back to the now and the future of the UK not the past.

[Northern Monkey]

I fear the country will waste this one opportunity to finally get out due to the ridiculous project fear campaign and will live to regret it as the EU's grip gets tighter and tighter.I guess that the majority of the country don't have the balls to make a stand.We will all just carry on tagging along behind like the good little sheep we are.
Let's all get our welcome matts cleaned and put out ready for the future....Turks and Terrorism

[Kizzy]

I fear the country will waste this one opportunity to finally get out due to the ridiculous project fear campaign and will live to regret it as the EU's grip gets tighter and tighter.I guess that the majority of the country don't have the balls to make a stand.We will all just carry on tagging along behind like the good little sheep we are.
Let's all get our welcome matts cleaned and put out ready for the future....Turks and Terrorism

And there's no fear perpetuated by camp brexit...Turks and Terrorism?

I would put the welcome mats down but they're all currently being licked clean for the Chinese.

[kirklancaster]

EU ACCUSED OF GROSS FINANCIAL 'MISMANAGEMENT' AS AUDITORS DISCOVER A £259 BILLION POUNDS 'BLACK HOLE' IN THE EUROPEAN BUDGET


AND THE UK IS BEING FORCED UNDER EU LAWS TO PAY AN EXTRA £34 BILLION POUNDS TO THE EU TO HELP REPLACE THE MISSING MONEY - EVEN THOUGH IT HAS GOT FECK ALL TO DO WITH US

WHAT MAKES IT MORE ANNOYING - AND IS SO UNBELIEVABLE - IS THAT THIS IS THE 18TH YEAR IN A ROW THAT THE EUROPEAN COURT OF AUDITORS HAVE REFUSED TO SIGN OFF THE EU's ACCOUNTS BECAUSE OF 'GROSS IRREGULARITIES'.

18 YEARS OF IRREGULAR ACCOUNTING AND THE EU IS STILL WASTING BILLIONS


The Court of Auditors said billions of euros were handed out without proper checks, and errors are on the rise including;

A farmer paid for 150 sheep which did not exist and 200,000 Euros to a 'Fruit Laboratory' which turned out to be just a house.

Errors now account for 3.9 per cent of the 130billion euro budget


THE CORRUPT, INEFFICIENT EU HAS WASTED YOUR MONEY AND WILL CONTINUE TO WASTE IT

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/6/457345/default/v1/metro-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/6/457354/default/v1/tele-1-992x558.jpg

[joeysteele]

A good smaller example of how our elected govts of any party waste taxpayers money, which is why I believe any fee to the EU that we save,after all the costs and tariffs that would be imposed in any deal with the EU,(even if there was very much left of it in fact at all), would be virtually squandered too by elected govts in other ways.

This cost in my opinion is ludicrous for this pamphlet, what the people who have to decide in or out need, is a publication that spells out what he have, what we give and what we get from the EU.
Also the future plans of the UK to work for reform of the EU and how it should be shaped fro the future.

Alongside that same publication and what should have even been part of it should have been the pros of leaving too, with the full costings and conditions likewise included and also a clear message of what we can control,such as can we really refuse, (to get a good trading deal with the EU), to allow the free movement of EU citizens to the UK.
(I would say with as much certainty as I can, no we could not get such a deal if we leave).

We needed to see the plus and minus and pros and cons of both sides, alongside each other, done by an independent source,not borne out from the presentations of only pro EU from the in side and the anti EU rhetoric,with no factual costings, from the out organisations.
That is what taxpayers money should have been spent on,this 'pamphlet',whatever it contains will not in my view help many undecided,who already are getting from the out organisations that it is lies, however while it will not in any way all be lies,they do have a right to be angry about it and its issue.

This debate, never needed to go down the road it is by the govt and media,it should have been simple case of spelling out the problems with the EU, showing how successful the UK has been while in the EU.
Then alongside all that, the right vision of being out from the opposing side with the full details of what that would actually cost and what conditions we would be able to in fact, not hopefully, get rid of, that we currently have as to the EU.

If all any undecided voter is going to get from grown up adults who are connected to the EU and to the UK govt, is that the in camp are scaremongering/lying and the out camp are scaremongering/lying too on a regular tit for tat basis, then debate is impossible and I cannot see how anyone really undecided is being helped at all.
No mater what way they are leaning as to the issue.

It is really shocking, to say the least the way both organisations are playing this so far,a massive disservice to the undecided and in fact already decided voters as to this referendum.

I along with others said ages ago, there could never be a reasoned debate on the EU which is why the referendum was a dangerous move to make.
Whatever the result of the referendum will turn out to be, 'in' or 'out', it will not be because of any likely real informed electorate voting in it after this pathetic campaigning from both sides,, which is,in my opinion,a betrayal of those people needing real answers with substantiated vision and facts as to both sides too.

[Cherie]

That is actually disgusting that tax payers money is used to fund the in campaign, I had the out leaflet through the door the other day, who paid for that?

[joeysteele]

That is actually disgusting that tax payers money is used to fund the in campaign, I had the out leaflet through the door the other day, who paid for that?

Both organisations are going to get taxpayers funds to pay for the campaign,the decision has not yet been made who gets the official out campaign lead.

Govts only have taxpayers money,really no one elses can be used as to either side as limits are imposed on what can and should be spent.

It is always taxpayers that have to foot the bill on these things, it is another reason why I was against the referendum.
It is actually why I would have agreed with Margaret Thatcher that referenda is a failure of govt, we elect govts to make decisions.

However since referenda is becoming a near norm, there are many other things I would like to see asked of the UK voters.
A govt held referendum however will have to be covered by the main presenters of sides in it with most and near all costs more than likely coming from taxpayers.

[Cherie]

Both organisations are going to get taxpayers funds to pay for the campaign,the decision has not yet been made who gets the official out campaign lead.

Govts only have taxpayers money,really no one elses can be used as to either side as limits are imposed on what can and should be spent.

It is always taxpayers that have to foot the bill on these things, it is another reason why I was against the referendum.
It is actually why I would have agreed with Margaret Thatcher that referenda is a failure of govt, we elect govts to make decisions.

However since referenda is becoming a near norm, there are many other things I would like to see asked of the UK voters.
A govt held referendum however will have to be covered by the main presenters of sides in it with most and near all costs more than likely coming from taxpayers.


The headline is misleading in the Telegraoh as it implies the tax payer is funding the In leaflet only :fist:

[Kizzy]

The headline is misleading in the Telegraoh as it implies the tax payer is funding the In leaflet only :fist:

Why are you so surprised? That's our wonderful unbiased media.

[joeysteele]

The headline is misleading in the Telegraoh as it implies the tax payer is funding the In leaflet only :fist:

This 'in' pamphlet is the only official thing out in the main at present, and at present we don't even know who the powers that be will be selecting from all the 'out' organisations to be the one to get their backing for the campaign.
I think this is an obscene amount on money to have been used on this pamphlet and wrong too.

[Cherie]

This 'in' pamphlet is the only official thing out in the main at present, and at present we don't even know who the powers that be will be selecting from all the 'out' organisations to be the one to get their backing for the campaign.
I think this is an obscene amount on money to have been used on this pamphlet and wrong too.


Oh okay i got an "out" one the other day so assumed that was official

[Cherie]

Why are you so surprised? That's our wonderful unbiased media.

Because I have had an "out" leaflet which I assumed was their official one but it seems not

[kirklancaster]

The headline is misleading in the Telegraoh as it implies the tax payer is funding the In leaflet only :fist:

NO Cherie - it is NOT the headline which is misleading you.

The REAL truth Cherie, is that this is just one more DISGUSTING and BRAZEN example of Dave Cameron's utter dishonesty and duplicity when it comes to the EU.

Cameron has used tax-payers money to fund this leaflet of lies AGAINST OFFICIAL policy and EXTRA to any EQUAL funds agreed for both the ''IN' and 'OUT' campaigns.

The official policy is that, both the 'Leave' and 'Remain' campaigns will receive the same amount of public funding to issue their own leaflets to voters during the campaign proper, and will get a page each in a further leaflet which the Electoral Commission watchdog will send to every household, and that there will be a MAXIMUM £7 million pounds limit which each 'camp' will be allowed to spend on their campaigns in the last 10 weeks of the referendum campaign.

The £10 million pounds which the tax-payers of this country are paying for this illicit pro-EU leaflet ALREADY BREECHES that £7 million pound limit, but the Cameron does not give a hoot.

The great irony is that the GREAT MAJORITY of tax-payers in this country DO NOT WANT to be in the EU, but their hard earned taxes are being illicitly used by a corrupt government to pay for a glossy brochure PROMOTING THE 'REMAIN' IN THE EU CAUSE.

Talk about 'Rubbing Our Faces In It'.

[Cherie]

NO Cherie - it is NOT the headline which is misleading you.

The REAL truth Cherie, is that this is just one more DISGUSTING and BRAZEN example of Dave Cameron's utter dishonesty and duplicity when it comes to the EU.

Cameron has used tax-payers money to fund this leaflet of lies AGAINST OFFICIAL policy and EXTRA to any EQUAL funds agreed for both the ''IN' and 'OUT' campaigns.

The official policy is that, both the 'Leave' and 'Remain' campaigns will receive the same amount of public funding to issue their own leaflets to voters during the campaign proper, and will get a page each in a further leaflet which the Electoral Commission watchdog will send to every household, and that there will be a MAXIMUM £7 million pounds limit which each 'camp' will be allowed to spend on their campaigns in the last 10 weeks of the referendum campaign.

The £10 million pounds which the tax-payers of this country are paying for this illicit pro-EU leaflet ALREADY BREECHES that £7 million pound limit, but the Cameron does not give a hoot.

The great irony is that the GREAT MAJORITY of tax-payers in this country DO NOT WANT to be in the EU, but their hard earned taxes are being illicitly used by a corrupt government to pay for a glossy brochure PROMOTING THE 'REMAIN' IN THE EU CAUSE.

Talk about 'Rubbing Our Faces In It'.


Okay well that makes more sense thanks Kirk

[kirklancaster]

No prob Cherie.

[kirklancaster]

RAIL UNION URGES ITS MEMBERS TO VOTE TO LEAVE THE EU

The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union says Brexit would stop "attacks" on trade unions and protect jobs and wages.

It also claims new EU policies would entrench rail privatisation and make it impossible to renationalise services in the future.

General secretary Mick Cash said the EU 'attacks' democracy and made austerity measures worse in the UK.

He said: "RMT is proud to stand up for the tradition of progressive and socialist opposition to the European Union, an organisation wedded to privatisation, austerity and attacking democracy.

"It would be frankly ludicrous for a union like ours to support staying in a bosses' club that seeks to ban the public ownership of our railways, attacks the shipping and offshore sectors and embraces the privatisation of the NHS and other essential services that our members depend on."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/658932/Rail-union-RMT-urges-member-vote-leave-european-union

[Kizzy]

NO Cherie - it is NOT the headline which is misleading you.

The REAL truth Cherie, is that this is just one more DISGUSTING and BRAZEN example of Dave Cameron's utter dishonesty and duplicity when it comes to the EU.

Cameron has used tax-payers money to fund this leaflet of lies AGAINST OFFICIAL policy and EXTRA to any EQUAL funds agreed for both the ''IN' and 'OUT' campaigns.

The official policy is that, both the 'Leave' and 'Remain' campaigns will receive the same amount of public funding to issue their own leaflets to voters during the campaign proper, and will get a page each in a further leaflet which the Electoral Commission watchdog will send to every household, and that there will be a MAXIMUM £7 million pounds limit which each 'camp' will be allowed to spend on their campaigns in the last 10 weeks of the referendum campaign.

The £10 million pounds which the tax-payers of this country are paying for this illicit pro-EU leaflet ALREADY BREECHES that £7 million pound limit, but the Cameron does not give a hoot.

The great irony is that the GREAT MAJORITY of tax-payers in this country DO NOT WANT to be in the EU, but their hard earned taxes are being illicitly used by a corrupt government to pay for a glossy brochure PROMOTING THE 'REMAIN' IN THE EU CAUSE.

Talk about 'Rubbing Our Faces In It'.

Is there a link to this article please?

[kirklancaster]

VICTORY! - DUTCH 'PEOPLE POWER' CRUSHES EXPANSIONIST BRUSSELS..... AND BREXIT WILL BE NEXT

THE DUTCH people have delivered a devastating blow to the whole European Union project and handed a huge boost to Brexit campaigners by sinking a Brussels plot to expand further into Eastern Europe.

Dutch voters are heading to the polls in a landmark referendum on the EU

In a stunning rebuke to the European elite, voters in the Netherlands have overwhelmingly rejected a plan by EU bureaucrats to bring Ukraine into the bloc’s sphere of influence.

The final count showed a whopping 61.1% of the Dutch people voted to block the deal, compared to just 38.1% who want it to go ahead.

Their verdict is a crushing blow for the entire federalist project, with the referendum effectively acting as a barometer for anti-EU feeling in the country.

One prominent Dutch politician tonight said that the result is a victory for democracy, and predicted it will be followed by Britain voting to leave the Brussels regime this summer.

The final turnout stood at 32.2% meaning the referendum is valid in Dutch law.

At least 30% of the population needed to take part in the vote for it to be classed as valid, which had left campaigners facing a tense wait for confirmation.

The stunning result was tonight welcomed by Brexit campaigners who said it was a stunning condemnation of the EU's expansionist dreams.

Leave.EU spokesman Brian Monteith said: "The Dutch result is a stunning condemnation of the European Union's willingness to extend its borders, put international relationships at risk and offer visa free travel to another 44 million people from a war-torn country.

"This humiliating rejection of the Ukraine agreement demonstrates that people don't have to support the EU and its expansionist agenda to feel European. Nobody could accuse the Dutch of not being good Europeans but they have no willingness to open their borders to more migrants and pick up the tab for Ukraine's problems just like most UK voters.

"This result gives the British people the signal that it is moderate and normal to reject the EU and stand up for what's in our country's best interests. The sun is now setting on the European Union."

[kirklancaster]

Is there a link to this article please?

I usually abridge from several KIzzy - but I think this is the link for that particular post.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/658797/EU-referendrum-Fury-PM-10-million-proBrussels-leaflets

You are aware that Cameron's critics are accusing him of using this as a 'smokescreen' to divert public attention away from 'Panamagate'?

[Kizzy]

We have been asking for information for months so it's about time we got some though isn't it?

[arista]

We have been asking for information for months so it's about time we got some though isn't it?

not propaganda , though


It needed a note for the out of E. U.
to be fair.

[Cherie]

Apparently the justification is we needed to know what the government felt on the issue :laugh: given they don't all agree will the other half spend anther 9 million on telling us how they feel :idc:

[arista]

Okay well that makes more sense thanks Kirk


Yes Kirk knows this is Propaganda

Its Wrong

[bots]

not propaganda , though


It needed a note for the out of E. U.
to be fair.

but its in support of the EU, why would they. You don't get a note on labour leaflets in an election saying how good the conservatives are :laugh:

The out campaign will be able to do their own stuff when they actually manage to speak with one voice rather than the mess that it is now

[arista]

but its in support of the EU, why would they. You don't get a note on labour leaflets in an election saying how good the conservatives are :laugh:

The out campaign will be able to do their own stuff when they actually manage to speak with one voice rather than the mess that it is now


Sure.

But put 2 leaflets in there
(many wanted that on TV and Radio shows today)

[joeysteele]

This is an odd one but I guess it will be expected to be put under 'govt information' since the present govt is recommending staying in.

I have strongly disagreed and do disagree with those advocating 'out' on this thread but I certainly share their rightful annoyance,indeed fury and disbelief at the funding used for this pamphlet.
I would like to know, and think we all should be told, if this will be classed fully as part of the 'in' funding or is this going to be manipulated into being a 'special information case'.

No matter what side I am on on any issue,I believe in as equal and as fair battle and funding between opposing sides as there can be.

[kirklancaster]

This is an odd one but I guess it will be expected to be put under 'govt information' since the present govt is recommending staying in.

I have strongly disagreed and do disagree with those advocating 'out' on this thread but I certainly share their rightful annoyance,indeed fury and disbelief at the funding used for this pamphlet.
I would like to know, and think we all should be told, if this will be classed fully as part of the 'in' funding or is this going to be manipulated into being a 'special information case'.

No matter what side I am on on any issue,I believe in as equal and as fair battle and funding between opposing sides as there can be.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Respect.

[Cherie]

This is an odd one but I guess it will be expected to be put under 'govt information' since the present govt is recommending staying in.

I have strongly disagreed and do disagree with those advocating 'out' on this thread but I certainly share their rightful annoyance,indeed fury and disbelief at the funding used for this pamphlet.
I would like to know, and think we all should be told, if this will be classed fully as part of the 'in' funding or is this going to be manipulated into being a 'special information case'.

No matter what side I am on on any issue,I believe in as equal and as fair battle and funding between opposing sides as there can be.


I would agree if the government were in agreement but given they aren't it is a total farce to practically double the funding for the in campaign. Apparently this happened as well during the Scottish yes/no vote and it was agreed afterwards that this was unfair practice, that agreement didn't last long

[joeysteele]

I would agree if the government were in agreement but given they aren't it is a total farce to practically double the funding for the in campaign. Apparently this happened as well during the Scottish yes/no vote and it was agreed afterwards that this was unfair practice, that agreement didn't last long

The majority of the govt are in favour of staying in however and in any vote in Parliament the overwhelming result would be to remain in as to all parties.
So I guess they can claim that ground as to the govt supporting and recommending staying in.

This pamphlet however has needs to be explained far better than it has so far and how it affects or doesn't affect future spending on the EU issue especially as to the 'in' organisation.

I doubt it will,despite the cost of it all, be even that much assistance to undecided voters anyway.

[bots]

with regard to the funding limits, there are rules and regulations that come into play a certain time period before a vote (the same applies to general elections) In this case, the spending limits come into play for the 10 weeks preceding the voting day, which comes into effect next week, not now, so either side can, at the present time, spend without that restriction.

[Cherie]

with regard to the funding limits, there are rules and regulations that come into play a certain time period before a vote (the same applies to general elections) In this case, the spending limits come into play for the 10 weeks preceding the voting day, which comes into effect next week, not now, so either side can, at the present time, spend without that restriction.

Let give the out vote access to public funds as well then, even things up a little

[bots]

Let give the out vote access to public funds as well then, even things up a little

There are plenty high profile out campers with a few quid. 8 million would not be a problem.

The issue is that the out camp are not a consolidated group, they all have their own agendas/reasons for being out and can't get along with each other. Its an absolutely crazy referendum really :laugh:

I've also come to the conclusion that whether we are in or out will have little relevance to me and my family. Swings and roundabouts I think. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

There are plenty high profile out campers with a few quid. 8 million would not be a problem.

The issue is that the out camp are not a consolidated group, they all have their own agendas/reasons for being out and can't get along with each other. Its an absolutely crazy referendum really :laugh:

I've also come to the conclusion that whether we are in or out will have little relevance to me and my family. Swings and roundabouts I think. :shrug:

Why's that, are you moving to a pineapple under the sea?

[Cherie]

There are plenty high profile out campers with a few quid. 8 million would not be a problem.

The issue is that the out camp are not a consolidated group, they all have their own agendas/reasons for being out and can't get along with each other. Its an absolutely crazy referendum really :laugh:

I've also come to the conclusion that whether we are in or out will have little relevance to me and my family. Swings and roundabouts I think. :shrug:

I feel the same about in or out at the moment, that said why should the out vote put their hand in their pocket when there is public money up for grabs

[bots]

For me, the argument that we will be more in control and better off out of europe, are nice words that are more difficult to implement in reality than they are in theory. We will still need to trade with the same people, to the same standards that we have been, or we simply won't be able to trade.

Also, from a "whats important in life to my family perspective", the EU basically is some idealists vision. It may be a nice vision, but on a day to day basis, I couldn't care less about the vision. The EU is a monolithic structure that takes huge inertia to move 1 single cm. The UK is known for its ability to adapt to circumstances rapidly, that's what its good at, and the EU is restricting that capability

On balance, I'm not fussed what the referendum result is. I think the majority of people are in the same boat. That's why the arguments for and against have been so mediocre, because deep down, most people don't really care and if there is no real passion to be part of a larger EU, then we quite simply shouldn't be in it.

[joeysteele]

For me, the argument that we will be more in control and better off out of europe, are nice words that are more difficult to implement in reality than they are in theory. We will still need to trade with the same people, to the same standards that we have been, or we simply won't be able to trade.

Also, from a "whats important in life to my family perspective", the EU basically is some idealists vision. It may be a nice vision, but on a day to day basis, I couldn't care less about the vision. The EU is a monolithic structure that takes huge inertia to move 1 single cm. The UK is known for its ability to adapt to circumstances rapidly, that's what its good at, and the EU is restricting that capability

On balance, I'm not fussed what the referendum result is. I think the majority of people are in the same boat. That's why the arguments for and against have been so mediocre, because deep down, most people don't really care and if there is no real passion to be part of a larger EU, then we quite simply shouldn't be in it.

I have to concede that is what I am finding more and more when talking to people undecided, they don't really care and have already lost what little interest they may have had because of much of the way the campaign is going.

[arista]

"I have to concede that is what I am finding more and more when talking to people undecided,"


Yes Joey
Live 2 hour TV debates are needed
with In and Out on a panel
with Public seated

[joeysteele]

"I have to concede that is what I am finding more and more when talking to people undecided,"


Yes Joey
Live 2 hour TV debates are needed
with In and Out on a panel
with Public seated

Definitely.I agree.

If this keeps up the way it is, there will likely be a poor turnout and I find those wanting to leave being the ones who will rush out to vote too.

This is turning into a real mess,it should have been constructive arguments as to both sides and nothing other than proven factual information presented.

All the hostility is simply turning more off, that is not a bad thing that people listening are turned off by the 2 sides hostility to each other, however if that doesn't stop then this referendum will be a poor show as to those actually bothering to vote in it I fear.

[Kizzy]

Debates are ok but remember the 'plants' from the GE?

[DemolitionRed]

That little £9 'remain' booklet will soon be in every families hands https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk From a quick study of the booklet it seems to be mainly based on assumptions and estimates and any fact has quite tenuous links.

[arista]

Yes DR £10Million
for Propaganda Tosh

[Kizzy]

That little £9 'remain' booklet will soon be in every families hands https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk From a quick study of the booklet it seems to be mainly based on assumptions and estimates and any fact has quite tenuous links.

Were you expecting something factual and coherant...from dave? :laugh:
That said it would be hard to have anything concrete on life outside the EU as the impact can't be that accurately predicted.
I did read that the brexit uncertainty had sent the £ to a 7yr low, or as it was during the worldwide recession.

[joeysteele]

There does not in any way need to be any propaganda or false info issued at all.

This is why I am as annoyed wt the 'in' campaign as I am at the 'out' one.

The EU has many flaws and problems attached to being in it,many things the UK govts should have been and should seek to change and help fully reform,with more and more Nations joining that should be easier to do not harder.
Then list the benefits of the EU as they are balancing it with the full nett cots to the UK of being in it too.

That's it, no need or scaremongering or any manipulating of costs and conditions while being in, just plain facts.

As to the 'out' organisations, I have said it many times here and won;t go into it again, all they needed to do was also stick to facts and outline even approximately what costs, tariffs and conditions we would likely have to have to get a trading deal that was good with the EU and also indeed with the Nations we will need to outside the EU too.

Why the attempts to just confuse, scare and put off more those who will need to vote on this issue astounds me from both sides.
Things are not perfect in the EU for the UK but there are benefits to being in.
There are benefits to being out too but also many uncertain expectations and therefore imperfections there too.

We need to be told both by both,not this tit for tat who can put the most fear into voters best.
There will be no real winners of this referendum morally if this campaign carries on as it has and the UK will for sure be the loser if it does carry on like this too.

I very sadly for me even heard a group of people this morning saying, they knew nothing about the EU but they were voting out because they think that will get rid of Cameron as PM.
Unbelievable.
What a way to make a decision on such a vital issue as this

[bots]

There does not in any way need to be any propaganda or false info issued at all.

This is why I am as annoyed wt the 'in' campaign as I am at the 'out' one.

The EU has many flaws and problems attached to being in it,many things the UK govts should have been and should seek to change and help fully reform,with more and more Nations joining that should be easier to do not harder.
Then list the benefits of the EU as they are balancing it with the full nett cots to the UK of being in it too.

That's it, no need or scaremongering or any manipulating of costs and conditions while being in, just plain facts.

As to the 'out' organisations, I have said it many times here and won;t go into it again, all they needed to do was also stick to facts and outline even approximately what costs, tariffs and conditions we would likely have to have to get a trading deal that was good with the EU and also indeed with the Nations we will need to outside the EU too.

Why the attempts to just confuse, scare and put off more those who will need to vote on this issue astounds me from both sides.
Things are not perfect in the EU for the UK but there are benefits to being in.
There are benefits to being out too but also many uncertain expectations and therefore imperfections there too.

We need to be told both by both,not this tit for tat who can put the most fear into voters best.
There will be no real winners of this referendum morally if this campaign carries on as it has and the UK will for sure be the loser if it does carry on like this too.

I very sadly for me even heard a group of people this morning saying, they knew nothing about the EU but they were voting out because they think that will get rid of Cameron as PM.
Unbelievable.
What a way to make a decision on such a vital issue as this

The problem is that those championing the cause from either side with the loudest voices are politicians, who won't waste an opportunity to make a political point. When you can't stand a persons politics it makes it incredibly difficult to jump on board and make a decision if you literally can't stand the person you are listening to.

Its probably too late now, but I think everyone would be much more interested in what "real people" with real knowledge and experience have to say. I don't trust ANY politician to be giving me an unbiased opinion

[joeysteele]

The problem is that those championing the cause from either side with the loudest voices are politicians, who won't waste an opportunity to make a political point. When you can't stand a persons politics it makes it incredibly difficult to jump on board and make a decision if you literally can't stand the person you are listening to.

Its probably too late now, but I think everyone would be much more interested in what "real people" with real knowledge and experience have to say. I don't trust ANY politician to be giving me an unbiased opinion

All you say is right.

A sad state of affairs as to such an important referendum and decision in my view.

Like you too, I think it probably is too late to turn things around and make this campaign more meaningful now.

[Cherie]

The problem is that those championing the cause from either side with the loudest voices are politicians, who won't waste an opportunity to make a political point. When you can't stand a persons politics it makes it incredibly difficult to jump on board and make a decision if you literally can't stand the person you are listening to.

Its probably too late now, but I think everyone would be much more interested in what "real people" with real knowledge and experience have to say. I don't trust ANY politician to be giving me an unbiased opinion


True, the most over used word in this campaign has to be "scare mongering"

[Kizzy]

Yep for or against both camps are accused of whipping up a 'project of fear'.

[DemolitionRed]

Most people will vote according to how they believe it will affect them on a personal level and so anyone who feels immigration problems impede in their lives in some negative way, will likely be voting "out". The funniest part about this vote enticement is that currently the UK has an opt out of the Schengen agreement, because we were part of those negotiations. However, the Lisbon Treaty clearly specifies that anyone wishing to join the EEA or the EU, has to accept the Schengen agreement in full as a new member. So if we vote to leave, we lose all the opt-outs we currently have and effectively have to apply to join the EEA to access the free trade area. Whilst I don't see that as a problem, I fully understand that by accepting the Schengen Agreement, it will essentially make the free movement of people from within the EEA even easier than it is at the moment.

My only reason for voting out is, I no longer want Britain to be part of the great state that is harnessed to the twin pillars of capitalism and military supremacy ... America.

[joeysteele]

Most people will vote according to how they believe it will affect them on a personal level and so anyone who feels immigration problems impede in their lives in some negative way, will likely be voting "out". The funniest part about this vote enticement is that currently the UK has an opt out of the Schengen agreement, because we were part of those negotiations. However, the Lisbon Treaty clearly specifies that anyone wishing to join the EEA or the EU, has to accept the Schengen agreement in full as a new member. So if we vote to leave, we lose all the opt-outs we currently have and effectively have to apply to join the EEA to access the free trade area. Whilst I don't see that as a problem, I fully understand that by accepting the Schengen Agreement, it will essentially make the free movement of people from within the EEA even easier than it is at the moment.

My only reason for voting out is, I no longer want Britain to be part of the great state that is harnessed to the twin pillars of capitalism and military supremacy ... America.



Well I think coming out of the EU,just my thinking admittedly, is that we will probably have to be even closer than we are now to the USA if out.

[DemolitionRed]

[/B]


Well I think coming out of the EU,just my thinking admittedly, is that we will probably have to be even closer than we are now to the USA if out.

America know that if Britain comes out of the EU its going to make transatlantic treaty complicated but then the Americans are trying to shaft us and the EU is doing a great imitation of an ostrich.
I've no doubt that this treaty will absolutely outlaw left-wing politics and destroy the little bit of democracy we are so desperately trying to cling on to.

[the truth]

I prey every day to whoever is listening, that we find the guts the spirit and heart , not to mention the brains to withdraw from this complete and utter monolithic big brother superstate George orwell nightmare....The entire fiasco is a stitch up by the corporate world to take over Europe and the world. It really is that simple and that horrifying.

[kirklancaster]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/GrouchoCaricature.jpg/144px-GrouchoCaricature.jpg
"I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER" - DAVE 'GROUCHO' CAMERON

ANYONE HERE UP FOR SEEING THIS CORRUPT, SELF-SERVING UK GOVERNMENT 'HOISTED UPON THEIR OWN PETARD'?

The government has laid itself wide open to being challenged in the EUROPEAN COURT of HUMAN RIGHTS (ooooh, how I love irony) because their 'Pamphlet of Lies' breaches The VENICE COMMISSION's 'Code of Good Practice'.

"The Venice Commission's , of which the UK is a full member, was established by the Council of Europe to ensure European countries protect the “Principles of Europe’s electoral heritage”.

"Their Code of Good Practice in Electoral Matters has previously been used by the European Court of Human Rights to settle legal disputes – including challenging the ban on prisoner voting."

Paragraph 111 of that Code, states:

“in the field of public funding of parties or campaigns the principle of equality of opportunity applies”

'PUBLIC FUNDING' and 'EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY' being the key words.

In addition, the self-serving pigs in parliament have even more seriously breached that same 'Code of Good Practice' rulings on Referendums;

"The 24 page document provides specific guidelines for European states looking to hold referendums, including very firm rules on public funding. Section 3, subsection 3.1 CLEARLY states:

“the public authorities (national, regional and local) must not influence the outcome of the vote by excessive, one-sided campaigning. The use of public funds by the authorities for campaigning purposes must be prohibited.”

A corrupt government who SO DESPERATELY want to continue feathering the nests of the ELITE CLUB which THEY and their EUROPEAN buddies belong to at YOUR expense, have not only produced a PAMPHLET OF LIES to aid them in that UNFAIR objective, but have also done so at TAX-PAYERS expense - AND BREACHED THE REGULATIONS OF THAT VERY CLUB.

[Kizzy]

I received my remain booklet.

[kirklancaster]

I received my remain booklet.

Well Kizzy? Have you digested its contents yet? What do you think? Spill.

[joeysteele]

Whatever is in it, after this publicity and this unnecessary wasting in my view of £9million on it.
I fear it will recruit more to the 'outs' than 'in' .

The govt has many means at its disposal to make its case and will also be doing so when the campaign is officially under way.
It is not like 1975 with that govt, and that referendum, who did not have all the social media outlets there are now in place.

This is annoying me,they may as well have held this referendum the same day as the local elections and Holyrood elections and Welsh assembly elections.
We have heard little and mostly nothing about them but all about this referendum, at least holding it the same day would have possibly got the best possible turnout outside of a general election.

Frankly I see a poor turnout looming still and a sleepwalking out of the EU now.
The out organisations have bee all over the place so far but the govt actions from its position, has in my view, turned more off as to this issue.
I really do think we are now more than likely heading for a out result.

[bots]

i got my booklet today. Its not propaganda, its not scaremongering, just factual information which i think is pretty accurate. I don't have a problem with it.

[the truth]

1000s of nhs workers wish to leave but remain anonymous for fear of government reprisals

however some have put their name to a letter today


http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/healthcare_workers_say_we_should_vote_leave_to_sav e_the_nhs?utm_content=bufferfded8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Letter text

Dear Sir,

The NHS is a great British institution that families rely on in times of need. But as it slips into financial crisis the NHS itself needs some urgent attention.

The NHS is being asked to make huge cuts at a time of rising demand. Patients are having to wait longer for treatment, hospital deficits are increasing and doctors are on strike after being told they must take a pay cut. The Government must accept responsibility for this – they have starved the NHS of necessary funding for too long.

If we Vote Leave on 23 June we will be able to spend more on our priorities like the NHS. If we put the billions that currently go to EU bureaucrats into the NHS instead it would hugely improve patient care. For example, the £350 million a week we hand to Brussels is similar to the entire yearly Cancer Drugs Fund budget.

As healthcare professionals who have worked for the NHS for years we believe that the best choice in the EU referendum is to Vote Leave on June 23rd and save the NHS.

[joeysteele]

Mine came today,the booklet really doesn't say any more than those who have listened to the campaign likely don't know already.
Was it worth £9 million of taxpayers funding, no way.

It will be of little assistance to the undecided but I cannot agree with whoever said it was about estimates, there never needed anyway to be reasons for estimates as to being in the EU from the 'in' organisation and the govt.
We know where it and we came from, how it is in the main NOW and the costs of and conditions of being in it, that it is likely to only slowly change in the future for the better hopefully,that will largely depend on who and what govt pushes for further change in the future in the EU.

It sets out the superficial stall in the main, a lot under the table that we don't see or get in this booklet,however now it is time for the out organisations to bring out the substantiated good, fair and bad news as to being out.
The one fact remains,if they remain in a position of cannot do so or will not do so, then really it is a vote into the dark as to voting out,for the future of the UK and its people of all generations.

At least this booklet tells us where we have been and where we are now at the very least, as to the UK being full members of the EU.
While I cannot see it swaying the undecided one way or the other, it has good enough arguments for me to stay in still.

I really doubt sadly,that the undecided,or anyone else for that matter in or out leaning, will ever really get the right information now which they are longing for to make a real informed decision on voting.

[Niamh.]

Can't see you leaving most undecideds will vote for no change ie. stay in if they can't make their minds up, like the Scottish independence referendum

[Cherie]

Many undecideds might not vote at all

[joeysteele]

Many undecideds might not vote at all

I think the vast majority of them will not Cherie.
You are in my view spot on in that.

[DemolitionRed]

I think the vast majority of them will not Cherie.
You are in my view spot on in that.

I also think a lot of people will change their mind at the last moment.

[Niamh.]

Many undecideds might not vote at all

I think the vast majority of them will not Cherie.
You are in my view spot on in that.

Alot of people always vote though no matter what. Me for example I always think people died for my right to even have a vote so i would never not vote unless it was absolutely unavoidable

[arista]

Many undecideds might not vote at all


we just need Proper Fall Debates Live on TV
on all channels

[Cherie]

we just need Proper Fall Debates Live on TV
on all channels

We do, but are we going to get them

[joeysteele]

Alot of people always vote though no matter what. Me for example I always think people died for my right to even have a vote so i would never not vote unless it was absolutely unavoidable




I totally agree with that Niamh, I will always use my vote too.

[arista]

We do, but are we going to get them


Yes I think they are going to do them.
As now they have Official Names confirmed etc


Although one vote out group is causing trouble

[arista]

Vote Leave Designated Official Anti-EU Campaign
http://news.sky.com/story/1678041/vote-leave-designated-official-anti-eu-campaign

[joeysteele]

Vote Leave Designated Official Anti-EU Campaign
http://news.sky.com/story/1678041/vote-leave-designated-official-anti-eu-campaign

I am pleased that one got it, not a surprise really however since it is the one supported by B Johnson.

[Alf]

Say no to the Fourth Reich

Vote out

[arista]

In Pollls
More Trust Boris
than the PM.
Fact

[joeysteele]

In Pollls
More Trust Boris
than the PM.
Fact

In polls, which I consider near irrelevant now, more trust Corbyn than either the PM or Boris Johnson as to the EU.
Also fact.Apparently the latest one has Corbyn 28%,B. Johnson 26% and the PM 21%.
Hardly an endorsement for any of them really.

[Vicky.]

In Pollls
More Trust Boris
than the PM.
Fact

Really? I find this hard to believe. More LIKING Boris I get...but he comes across a bit of a loveable clown tbh. I don't much like Cameron but I trust him a hell of a lot more than I would trust Boris :umm2:

[joeysteele]

Really? I find this hard to believe. More LIKING Boris I get...but he comes across a bit of a loveable clown tbh. I don't much like Cameron but I trust him a hell of a lot more than I would trust Boris :umm2:

I would too trust Cameron more than Boris Johnson, the man who said he would not have 2 roles and see out his full term as Mayor of London before seeking possible election to Parliament again, then did the opposite.

Then also on the EU issue, held back from saying his position, right even until after the cabinet Ministers, Duncan-Smith,Grayling,Gove and Villiers had made their position public.
He held back to maximise publicity for himself in the media announcing it on a rather quiet day so he was 'the news'.

Totally false and I would not trust him an inch and certainly not with power.

[Alf]

"There must be a superior power which dominates all the other powers, with enough authority to force them to live in harmony with one another - and France is best placed for that purpose."

"We must have a European legal system, a European appeal court, a common currency, the same weights and measures and the same laws".

"I must make all the peoples of Europe one people...."


Napoleon Bonaparte





Hitler said more or less the same, now we're making their wish come true.

[Kizzy]

Yes harmony be damned, we are the empire, if we want something we'll just don our pith hats and jolly well take it!

[Alf]

Yes harmony be damned, we are the empire, if we want something we'll just don our pith hats and jolly well take it!
I know your trying to be sarcastic, but you're more or less bang on right.

[arista]

A debate
on BBCNewsHD Newswatch
people are Angry at the BBC.
For not giving a good fair view on
on the E.U. debate

James Stevenson BBC News Editor
said one event will be at the Wembley Arena?

I hope thats the 2 hour debate for the Fecking BBC

[joeysteele]

I don't think any channel is doing a good balanced presentation so far.

Last night on Sky we had Boris claiming £350million a week would go to the NHS if out.
When challenged that figure was wrong and we did not pay £350million weekly to the EU, he said its the gross figure,thats fact.

You don't use gross figures until the deductions are off and you have the nett figure. so he would be promising all except the rebate to the NHS if out.
So what about the regional and other funds we get back from the EU which would stop if out.

If all the savings are going to the NHS what about the Farmers and those other funds,he has said it would go to the NHS,so all the others would lose out.

However he wasn't challenged as to that aid and funds back from the EU by the report' he was allowed to get away with saying simply, that's the gross figure, that's fact.
Let's hope then he is never in control of the UKs finances if he would risk operating on gross figures before all deductions and amendments ar taken into account..

Also, his getting at Obama as to the UK and the EU s getting really pathetic now, desperation almost.
Were Obama and the USA advocating the UK leaving the EU, he would be probably quoting that left, right and centre.

Really though, both sides have to be challenged as to claims they are making but that 'out' poster saying that if out, £350million a week would go to the NHS is a blatant lie and a bad misleading of the voters as to it too in my opinion.
The 'factual' real figure available to go anywhere is more like half that, around £175million.
Subject still of course to all costs,possible tariffs and other conditions that may eat up some of those funds left too.

So for me, we need people in the know interviewing and challenging both sides and not letting anyone off the hook as was so badly done with Boris Johnson's defence of that poster yesterday.
I doesn't bother me that he did that,I am pleased he id because it just shows to me, and I hope to others too, the bumbling mess he is and that he cannot be trusted on almost anything and that he will even find ways of defending a blatant lie.

He thinks saying things loud enough and arrogantly dismissing everyone else,is good statesmanship, not in my book and hopefully he shows the incompetent he is more and more in the remainder of this campaign.

[smudgie]

I don't think any channel is doing a good balanced presentation so far.

Last night on Sky we had Boris claiming £350million a week would go to the NHS if out.
When challenged that figure was wrong and we did not pay £350million weekly to the EU, he said its the gross figure,thats fact.

You don't use gross figures until the deductions are off and you have the nett figure. so he would be promising all except the rebate to the NHS if out.
So what about the regional and other funds we get back from the EU which would stop if out.

If all the savings are going to the NHS what about the Farmers and those other funds,he has said it would go to the NHS,so all the others would lose out.

However he wasn't challenged as to that aid and funds back from the EU by the report' he was allowed to get away with saying simply, that's the gross figure, that's fact.
Let's hope then he is never in control of the UKs finances if he would risk operating on gross figures before all deductions and amendments ar taken into account..

Also, his getting at Obama as to the UK and the EU s getting really pathetic now, desperation almost.
Were Obama and the USA advocating the UK leaving the EU, he would be probably quoting that left, right and centre.

Really though, both sides have to be challenged as to claims they are making but that 'out' poster saying that if out, £350million a week would go to the NHS is a blatant lie and a bad misleading of the voters as to it too in my opinion.
The 'factual' real figure available to go anywhere is more like half that, around £175million.
Subject still of course to all costs,possible tariffs and other conditions that may eat up some of those funds left too.

So for me, we need people in the know interviewing and challenging both sides and not letting anyone off the hook as was so badly done with Boris Johnson's defence of that poster yesterday.
I doesn't bother me that he did that,I am pleased he id because it just shows to me, and I hope to others too, the bumbling mess he is and that he cannot be trusted on almost anything and that he will even find ways of defending a blatant lie.

He thinks saying things loud enough and arrogantly dismissing everyone else,is good statesmanship, not in my book and hopefully he shows the incompetent he is more and more in the remainder of this campaign.

Yes, the silly beggar made a right show of himself.
Laura knows all the facts and figures and can run rings around him.
The daft thing is that he either knows the truth and thinks he can get away with his lies or worse still, he is totally clueless.
I must say it does make you think twice about voting for the out cause with him at the helm.

[arista]

"I don't think any channel is doing a good balanced presentation so far."

Yes Joey
I hope the Longer Debates, still to come,
are better

[Kizzy]

I know your trying to be sarcastic, but you're more or less bang on right.

Yes well I'm afraid we don't have the clout we had for any colonial attitudes in this country, therefore any subjugation and subsequent barbarism is out of the question sadly.

[bots]

I have changed my position on this since i started. While I think having the friendship of EU states is important, its not the be all and end all. They won't stop talking to us when we are no longer in the club :laugh:

The 2 key points for me are the contribution we pay if we remain, and the lack of say we will have in the EU if we choose to exit.

Trading terms will remain as is now, we won't change something that works. So, that aspect we can largely ignore.

Given there are only 3 states that provide a net positive contribution. Germany, France and us, we cannot fail to be better off and in control of where our money is spent. What Boris says about where the money is spent is 100% bollocks. It will be decided by the government of the time, not Boris :laugh:

Given how hard we have to fight for things we believe are right, proper and fair in the EU, having a say on its future is worth nothing. As a net contributor, one would expect the contributors to have the biggest say in its future, not having to argue to protect the rights of your country which is the case presently. This will not change .... ever.

So, from a marginal stay in voter, i am now a marginal lets leave voter .... but there is still time left :laugh:

[joeysteele]

Yes, the silly beggar made a right show of himself.
Laura knows all the facts and figures and can run rings around him.
The daft thing is that he either knows the truth and thinks he can get away with his lies or worse still, he is totally clueless.
I must say it does make you think twice about voting for the out cause with him at the helm.

He did make a right show of himself.
Actually this campaign may be good to show the more pathetic side of him more to the public.
Obviously he has his followers but most I have talked to have said much the same as you above.

[Kizzy]

It's no different to what his interviews normally consist of, him booming 'poppycock!' or some other nonsense word in order to endear him as some bumbling eccentric toff.... worn just too thin now bojo sorry.

[joeysteele]

It's no different to what his interviews normally consist of, him booming 'poppycock!' or some other nonsense word in order to endear him as some bumbling eccentric toff.... worn just too thin now bojo sorry.

I hate watching his interviews,he rarely gets really challenged and just wanders off bumbling other nonsense not really relevant to what he was actually asked.

His mayoral duties must be suffering now too, being also an MP and wandering around the Country now too campaigning for 'out'.

This is all about him 'using' this EU referendum to then be in place to see off Cameron and at least try to get a 2 or 3 years of being PM before the next election.
When hopefully his bumbling act will be more seen through and have worn really thin with the public overall.
Especially if a massive mess is made of things due to the endless uncertainties building of being out, 'if' that is the actual result.

[joeysteele]

I am really getting irritated with this campaign.
I volunteered to help campaigning for in but am fed up meeting so many people disillusioned, more uncertain than they were before,not bothered now in the slightest as all they are seeing is playground pathetic tit for tat.

Now today more figures thrown out at everyone,whether right, partly right or wrong,when will it be realised figures go over peoples heads, they have had so much selective sets of figures from both sides hammered at them, they are sick to the back teeth of figures and statistics.

Then the usual response from the other side of attacking these new figures while giving no substantiated info themselves as to being out of the EU.

Unbelievably, one of the things I am hearing more and more now as I try to talk to people about the EU is they don't know why we are having this referendum as no one will ever get concrete and true info from either side.
What an absolute mess of such an important issue.

I say again, all the in side needs to do is defend our time as a full member of the EU, as things are now and the success and security that as brought to the UK.
All the out side need to do is paint the true vision,if they have one,as to what out really looks like with what the gains and also losses will be that they can also fully substantiate.just as the in side can and should as to all the last decades of the UK being in the EU.

Is it so hard really just to be told the truth in a campaign, good and bad from both sides.
For goodness sake.
One the most massive important issues and decisions as to ours, the UK's and all future generations future is being turned into a pantomime farce by both major sides.

[user104658]

Don't know why we are having this referendum as no one will ever get concrete and true info from either side.

Is it so hard really just to be told the truth in a campaign, good and bad from both sides.
For goodness sake.
One the most massive important issues and decisions as to ours, the UK's and all future generations future is being turned into a pantomime farce by both major sides.


Depressingly this is nothing new at all; I fear you're just describing democracy, the way democracy always has been, and the way it most likely always will be, across the entire globe.

Really it's a sham. The illusion of informed choice. All that really happens is that the person who tells the prettiest lies wins the vote and then what actually happens, doesn't resemble the promises at all.

Worse still it seems that British politicians are slowly realising that they barely need to cover it up... they can say whatever they want during a campaign, then simply forget about it afterwards and there are NO consequences. Numerous campaign pledges entirely ignored by the Tories and yet public opinion barely wavers. The entire Scottish referrendum in the end hinged upon the "last minute deal" setting out new powers for Scotland if there was a "No" vote. They never materialised, with zero consequences for those who promised them. IMO it should have rendered the results of the referrendum null and void and immediately triggered another vote; but no. Lie, cheat, do what you need to do to win the democratic vote, and then do whatever the **** you want. It's a joke.

[joeysteele]

Depressingly this is nothing new at all; I fear you're just describing democracy, the way democracy always has been, and the way it most likely always will be, across the entire globe.

Really it's a sham. The illusion of informed choice. All that really happens is that the person who tells the prettiest lies wins the vote and then what actually happens, doesn't resemble the promises at all.

Worse still it seems that British politicians are slowly realising that they barely need to cover it up... they can say whatever they want during a campaign, then simply forget about it afterwards and there are NO consequences. Numerous campaign pledges entirely ignored by the Tories and yet public opinion barely wavers. The entire Scottish referrendum in the end hinged upon the "last minute deal" setting out new powers for Scotland if there was a "No" vote. They never materialised, with zero consequences for those who promised them. IMO it should have rendered the results of the referrendum null and void and immediately triggered another vote; but no. Lie, cheat, do what you need to do to win the democratic vote, and then do whatever the **** you want. It's a joke.

Depressing is the word TS.

I will be voting in because,not listening to any of the politicians or official organisations.
I have heard not a scrap from the 'outs' as to anything solid, for me the only facts are that I know for certain for myself is what it has been like, and is like, with the UK being a full member of the EU with all the good, fair and bad points of same.

The only thing I feel is certain about 'out' is almost across the board uncertainty, in the absence of anything of real substantiation from any advocating out.

So I am not going to risk my future,the UK's and the generations to follow on uncertainties,hence my reason to stay put where we are with at least some certainties of success or better times ahead,unlike the picture of being 'out'.

So furious and disillusioned am I with both sides for the way they are treating the public like total fools on this massive and important issue.
I am stopping helping to campaign.
I rarely give up on anything but this campaign from all sides is shocking and I am really dismayed by it all and the silly statistics and scaremongering going around as to it too from both sides.

It is awful, just really awful and the vote for 16 and 17 year olds on this issue was rejected but I feel pretty sure we would be hearing far more sense from them on this and the future of the UK than what we are getting now.

[joeysteele]

I see Boris is showing how bad he is at Maths again today and not getting challenged on it by the BBC either.

The other day he was hailing a poster with the wrong figures on it as to £350million a week being saved if we left the EU.
ignoring the rebate and what we get back leaving more like £175million,if any of that is actually left after we may have to cover new costs and tariffs.

However,that amounts at £350million a week to around £18billion a year.
Now today on the interview he is saying we'd save £20billion a year leaving the EU, so he adds to suit himself another billion and a half at leas to the figures.
Unbelievably he was not challenged again.

It seems he, with no thought whatsoever, just plucks any numbers out of thin air.
Then again, why not I guess, if he is never going to be challenged and confronted on his wild misleading claims to the British public.

[Red Moon]

I see Boris is showing how bad he is at Maths again today and not getting challenged on it by the BBC either.

The other day he was hailing a poster with the wrong figures on it as to £350million a week being saved if we left the EU.
ignoring the rebate and what we get back leaving more like £175million,if any of that is actually left after we may have to cover new costs and tariffs.

However,that amounts at £350million a week to around £18billion a year.
Now today on the interview he is saying we'd save £20billion a year leaving the EU, so he adds to suit himself another billion and a half at leas to the figures.
Unbelievably he was not challenged again.

It seems he, with no thought whatsoever, just plucks any numbers out of thin air.
Then again, why not I guess, if he is never going to be challenged and confronted on his wild misleading claims to the British public.

Boris's lies really get to me. The Europhobes complain about the negative campaign by Europhiles and then base their campaign on lies and wild spending claims which don't add up.

[Kizzy]

I love your sig :)

[joeysteele]

Boris's lies really get to me. The Europhobes complain about the negative campaign by Europhiles and then base their campaign on lies and wild spending claims which don't add up.

Its all driving me mad at present but Boris is really annoying.
How the outs can get away with dismissing all the in side says, then being at best inventive with their own figures they present,while never answering a single point as to all that will be required to do, how long it will take to do, and what costs and conditions will be put in place once out.

[MTVN]

Leave campaign's only response to the tidal wave of warnings from a vast array of senior figures and different analyses is: 'scaremongering'. The Treasury, the IMF, the Prime Minister, the Bank of England, the majority of businesses, President Obama, numerous other world leaders and politicians etc. all making very informed points on the risks of leaving the EU. There's only so much that can be dismissed as scaremongering.