The EU - Referendum - 23rd of June 2016 - in or out?

[MTVN]

Davey C has done it guys, lets all give him a big hand

[JoshBB]

I have a question for anyone who may know - will leaving the EU affect a british persons' freedom of movement to other EU states?

[Northern Monkey]

Reading what Cameron has actually come back with.It's pretty much nothing that's going to change anybodies mind.Apart from child benefit which he has actually failed on and only got a compromise he's come back with nothing of importance.His "Emergency brake" is only in place for 7 years and cannot be extended and only applies to new migrants.The other two things are just meh.

[lostalex]

well thank goodness this has been settled.

[bots]

I have a question for anyone who may know - will leaving the EU affect a british persons' freedom of movement to other EU states?

you will still be able to travel, just you will need your passport. The freedom of movement thing within the EU was a relatively recent thing, there were never any issues wrt to travel before it was introduced.

[joeysteele]

Davey C has done it guys, lets all give him a big hand

I actually do give him applause for some things I didn't myself think he would ever be able to get.

Now I really hope he can convince those eligible voters,to back his position and support staying in the EU.
He a year or so ago,seemed not so committed to the EU as he has become now over these last few months so he clearly has had a new dawn break probably on him after looking hard at life outside the EU for the UK.

There are many other things I wish he had a new dawn on too but right now,if he gets the result of this referendum he is recommending to the UK, this will certainly for me, be his finest achievement.

I think he actually did more than expected and furthermore, the possible ongoing thing from this is that a good number of the other Nations in the EU may take a closer look at things too from what he has started with these negotiations for the UK.

Yes definitely, credit where credit is due and he warrants all the credit he may get from this effort.

[bots]

I think the very important clause that we have now is that the EU will be ever closer integrated except the UK. This gives us an automatic ignore on any new laws etc that the EU feels like introducing.

The safeguards to the city of London are also very very important as the EU wanted to get its hands on that dosh. It was a looming disaster waiting to happen for the UK

[Cherie]

I have a question for anyone who may know - will leaving the EU affect a british persons' freedom of movement to other EU states?

For travel there would be no issues, for work you would probably need a work permit, that is something the "out" campaigners will need to clarify

[AnnieK]

I actually do give him applause for some things I didn't myself think he would ever be able to get.

Now I really hope he can convince those eligible voters,to back his position and support staying in the EU.
He a year or so ago,seemed not so committed the the EU as he has become now over these last few months so he clearly has had a new dawn break probably on him after looking hard at life outside the EU for the UK.

There are many other things I wish he had a new dawn on too but right now,if he gets the result of this referendum he is recommending to the UK, this will certainly for me, be his finest achievement.

I think he actually did more than expected and furthermore, the possible ongoing thing from this is that a good number of the other Nations in the EU may take a closer look at things too from what he has started with these negotiations for the UK.

Yes definitely, credit where credit is due and he warrants all the credit he may get from this effort.

Knowing you thoughts and feelings on Mr Cameron Joey, I have enjoyed reading your posts on this as I feel you are unbiased on this and although I am undecided still on the in / out vote, I feel I am getting some good pointers from you. Thank you

[Kizzy]

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/18-19/

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/uk/2016-uk-settlement-process-timeline/

[arista]

The PM is talking Live - now
on all News


Give us the date

[arista]

23 June - Confirmed

[smudgie]

The PM is talking Live - now
on all News


Give us the date


Thanks Arista, turned it on now.
Date confirmed.

[arista]

Kirk add 23 June
date to your title ,
please

[Cherie]

His speech was shorter than I expected, I guess he is knackered

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Could we maybe add a poll to this thread? It would be interesting to see how everyone will be voting on here.

[bots]

Hold on to your hats, this should keep us going till on season :dance:

[arista]

Could we maybe add a poll to this thread? It would be interesting to see how everyone will be voting on here.



Yes i hope Kirk will ask a Mod or Admin to do one


Simple

In

or

Out



of Europe

[arista]

His speech was shorter than I expected, I guess he is knackered



Yes he trying to keep some MP's on his side
for the vote.

Some are not decided - even as MP's

[lostalex]

I think Any sensible British person would realize that the EU is a major power next door and it's much more beneficial to be part of it and privy to everything going on and at least have some kind of influence from within it.

You cannot change your geographic location UK, you will always be part of Europe, so you might as well have a say on what goes on in it. Better than just trying to bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't effect you.

It's always better to have as strong a voice as you can, and being a member of the EU gives you a much stronger voice than not.

[Kazanne]

Good on Mr Cameron,at least he has come back with something.I wonder how this will go?

[arista]

Good on Mr Cameron,at least he has come back with something.I wonder how this will go?


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/20/12/article-3455752-316400EA00000578-15_964x430.jpg


In or Out - Shake it All About

We need a comedy special on this
on TV

[lostalex]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/20/12/article-3455752-316400EA00000578-15_964x430.jpg


In or Out - Shake it All About

We need a comedy special on this
on TV

Cameron's face definitely looks a bit red in that picture.

[Kizzy]

I think Any sensible British person would realize that the EU is a major power next door and it's much more beneficial to be part of it and privy to everything going on and at least have some kind of influence from within it.

You cannot change your geographic location UK, you will always be part of Europe, so you might as well have a say on what goes on in it. Better than just trying to bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't effect you.

It's always better to have as strong a voice as you can, and being a member of the EU gives you a much stronger voice than not.

You would think, and as part of the UN we are, I'm really worried about our blossoming romance with China and pressure from Russia, I would say these are what is driving Cameron in his negotiations.

[joeysteele]

Good on Mr Cameron,at least he has come back with something.I wonder how this will go?

:wavey::joker: Who'd have thought it possible, you and I agreeing to an action by David Cameron.
It is good on him and although I doubted he could get as much in only the last year,I now concede he has,as he even exceeded any expectations I had as to this issue.


It is a very important and serious issue however and so I totally support his efforts as to really going for this deal, he could have just given up and been able to blame totally the EU.
However he got them to listen, to take his negotiations seriously and then to really hammer out a deal that had worth to it.

Now he has maybe the harder task to help convince the UK voters that he has got the best deal and that his vision for the UK in the EU is the right one.
As in his negotiations over this last few weeks on this,his efforts to secure that will also have my full support.

[lostalex]

The idea of Britain doing better without the EU is just silly. it's like the idea of any US state trying to be independent from the US. It's too silly to even imagine happening. just like the Scottish referendum. It's just ridiculous.

The EU is not the reason for any of the UK's main problems.

[arista]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56605000/jpg/_56605268_jex_1228185_de30-1.jpg
Conservative Peter Bone MP
has been on all the News and radio today
saying this Vote is Not a Westminster Bubble.
This is a Vote for all Homes and Villages in the UK.

Leaflets and Door To Door
has now started

Thursday 23rd of June 2016
You all must vote

[arista]

Cameron's face definitely looks a bit red in that picture.


Yes he is Stressed
I hope tonight he has proper sleep.

[Kazanne]

:wavey::joker: Who'd have thought it possible, you and I agreeing to an action by David Cameron.
It is good on him and although I doubted he could get as much in only the last year,I now concede he has,as he even exceeded any expectations I had as to this issue.


It is a very important and serious issue however and so I totally support his efforts as to really going for this deal, he could have just given up and been able to blame totally the EU.
However he got them to listen, to take his negotiations seriously and then to really hammer out a deal that had worth to it.

Now he has maybe the harder task to help convince the UK voters that he has got the best deal and that his vision for the UK in the EU is the right one.
As in his negotiations over this last few weeks on this,his efforts to secure that will also have my full support.

I knew we'de agree somewhere down the line Joey,and fair play to you for not being biased ,it takes a lot to support someone you don't like:wavey: that's why I love you ,lets hope the country vote enmass,I really am undecided at the moment.:shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

Cameron's face definitely looks a bit red in that picture.

Probs just got a wiff of someones bacon sarnie and all those memories came flooding back.Or he got a boner.

[joeysteele]

Yes he is Stressed
I hope tonight he has proper sleep.

He must be stressed and exhausted,the fact his plans were altered and his time extended and talks after talks extended too,which also wear people out.

He has had a few days of constant wrangling and determined concentration as to winning some good deal here, having to address anything up to 27 other groups of people at times too.

It is a wonder that today he could even wake up let alone get down to more business with his Cabinet.

I am actually really pleased to see Ian Duncan Smith has come out to vote to leave,that makes me really glad that I am on the opposite side to him again.

[Kizzy]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56605000/jpg/_56605268_jex_1228185_de30-1.jpg
Conservative Peter Bone MP
has been on all the News and radio today
saying this Vote is Not a Westminster Bubble.
This is a Vote for all Homes and Villages in the UK.

Leaflets and Door To Door
has now started

Thursday 23rd of June 2016
You all must vote

Urgh not old bone what they rolled him out for, no private members bill to hold up proceedings with today?

[arista]

Ch4HDNews Live from Westminster at 6:30PM 28mins

BBC2HD & BBC2 has change the 6PM slot for a Special on EU but only 28mins

SkyNewsHD 7pm 52mins Live Special Adam Bolton.

[Kizzy]

Your party not exactly united on this are they dave?...
https://tompride.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/tory-civil-war-eu.png

[arista]

BBCNews Live now a Special Dateline
as the daytime one was stopped due to Live News

[T*]

Drop me out
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160220/5b0bb4021749d3a681a8485f46d18719.jpg

[T*]

No but really I'm quite pissed off that I'm not allowed to bloody vote
What a farce
I try to stay out of anything political but when it is something that may change the state of my country I would like a say

[lostalex]

No but really I'm quite pissed off that I'm not allowed to bloody vote
What a farce
I try to stay out of anything political but when it is something that may change the state of my country I would like a say

why can't you vote? are you in prison?

[bots]

I will do a bitontheslide day 1 prediction and state that it will be a comfortable OUT vote. The country has been restless toward the EU since the 70's, as a nation we are generally a bit pissed off with life, the EU is a perfect target. Out it will be.

[arista]

I will do a bitontheslide day 1 prediction and state that it will be a comfortable OUT vote. The country has been restless toward the EU since the 70's, as a nation we are generally a bit pissed off with life, the EU is a perfect target. Out it will be.


Really?
What due to all those Village voters that will vote
and Lack of Lazy Students
who will not bother to vote

[Kizzy]

I will do a bitontheslide day 1 prediction and state that it will be a comfortable OUT vote. The country has been restless toward the EU since the 70's, as a nation we are generally a bit pissed off with life, the EU is a perfect target. Out it will be.

I disagree, I think it'll be similar to the Scottish referendum and they'll be a lot of cold feet.

[T*]

why can't you vote? are you in prison?


No the government blocked off the plans to let 16/17 year olds vote

[joeysteele]

I can only base what I say now on what I have tried to dig out myself and I now have no faith in polling at all from the official sources.
However,I think in likelihood that it may well be that the UK overall prefers staying in by at least 55% to likely the other 45% for leaving.

However,I really can see the votes of those wanting to stay in, not getting the full turnout whereas those against staying in will vote no matter what.
I can also see that the 3 other Nations of the UK will near certainly vote to stay in,the regions and most cities of England voting to stay in too from the North to the Midlands.
Then the far South outside of London, actually heavily voting to leave and resulting then in them carrying the vote to leave overall by a small margin, even by just 51% to 49%.

Unless David Cameron and those advocating staying in really whip up the support and enthusiasm for the yes voters to get out and vote,then I can really see greater chaos looming after this referendum is over.

My main message at this time right up to polling day now will be to those who think staying in is or maybe is the best and safest option, to please make sure they go out and vote.
Never think your vote doesn't matter or won't count.
Here on this issue, it is vital and anyone who has doubts at all that the UK would be better off out of the EU,I hope they will go out and vote to stay in.

[arista]

Ch4HD News on now Kate Hoey Labour
who wants out.

And they took no ads

[joeysteele]

Ch4HD News on now Kate Hoey Labour
who wants out.

And they took no ads

Now for some reason Kate Hoey does my head in.

[smudgie]

Now for some reason Kate Hoey does my head in.

You and me both Joey..mind you, she might win you the "IN" vote singlehandedly.
All the time she was speaking I thought of leaning the other way again.
One thing I have discovered today, I really don't know which way I am going to vote yet.
Once Alan Johnson whispers in my ear that will be it, putty in his hands.

[bots]

My thinking is that Cameron wouldn't have bothered with this re-negotiating phase if he thought IN would comfortably win without it. A lot of frustration has built up over the years since the 70's. We took a leap of faith then, and many feel they were conned by subsequent powers being surrendered to Brussels, lack of accountability and stupid amounts of waste with butter mountains etc etc etc.

Given this will be the last time those that voted in the 70's will get a chance to influence things, I think they will take their chance and correct the decision made in the 70's, and that is the group that would normally support the status quo

[MTVN]

I actually do give him applause for some things I didn't myself think he would ever be able to get.

Now I really hope he can convince those eligible voters,to back his position and support staying in the EU.
He a year or so ago,seemed not so committed to the EU as he has become now over these last few months so he clearly has had a new dawn break probably on him after looking hard at life outside the EU for the UK.

There are many other things I wish he had a new dawn on too but right now,if he gets the result of this referendum he is recommending to the UK, this will certainly for me, be his finest achievement.

I think he actually did more than expected and furthermore, the possible ongoing thing from this is that a good number of the other Nations in the EU may take a closer look at things too from what he has started with these negotiations for the UK.

Yes definitely, credit where credit is due and he warrants all the credit he may get from this effort.

Good stuff Joey, think its important that the In campaign do represent a united a stance and support the PMs position even if they disagree with him on everything else, could make a big difference considering how fractured the Out campaign is already with three different groups all knocking lumps out of each other

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/20/448288/default/v0/telegraph-new-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/20/448290/default/v0/sunday-times-new-1-992x558.jpg

[MTVN]

Gove is by far the biggest blow to both the PM and the In campaign, I was also slightly surprised about Patel. IDS is still quite influential within the party but not beyond. The other three are pretty uninspiring politicians and won't make much impact either way.

Think Boris will eventually declare for In tomorrow evening

[bots]

Gove is by far the biggest blow to both the PM and the In campaign, I was also slightly surprised about Patel. IDS is still quite influential within the party but not beyond. The other three are pretty uninspiring politicians and won't make much impact either way.

Think Boris will eventually declare for In tomorrow evening

I think Boris is being held back as some ace card to play at a strategic time in the campaign which is surprising as I think he is a complete buffoon. I think his own advisers will advise him to see which way its going and then declare so as not to damage his future leadership prospects

[arista]

Gove is by far the biggest blow to both the PM and the In campaign, I was also slightly surprised about Patel. IDS is still quite influential within the party but not beyond. The other three are pretty uninspiring politicians and won't make much impact either way.

Think Boris will eventually declare for In tomorrow evening


Yes on Mondays
Daily Telegraph Front Page

[arista]

The PM and Farage are Live on BBC1HD and BBC1 on Marr. 9AM today

The SNP Lady who says if the UK Votes to Leave
she wants Referendum for Scotland , again. Is also on a Live link
how nice

[Cherie]

The PM and Farage are Live on BBC1HD and BBC1 on Marr. 9AM today

The SNP Lady who says if the UK Votes to Leave
she wants Referendum for Scotland , again. Is also on a Live link
how nice


The SNP making it all about independence as usual, and ignoring the Scottish "0ut" voters :rolleyes:

[MTVN]

The SNP making it all about independence as usual, and ignoring the Scottish "0ut" voters :rolleyes:

Sturgeon doesn't think there are any because Scotland is so forward thinking and progressive compared to backward little England

[MTVN]

PM put the case pretty well on Marr imo. Farage, well he's just repeating the same arguments that he's been making for the last ten years, Gove articulated the Leave voice much better in his statement yesterday imo.

Looks like I was wrong about Boris anyway, expected to back Brexit

[Kizzy]

If we stay in can we send this 6 off to that island inhabited by snakes... seems fitting :hehe:

[bots]

The SNP are assuming that all of Scotland want to be in Europe and England don't. That's a big assumption at this stage. It does add a secondary will they won't they element to it all that will keep the interest going until June.

[arista]

On Marr
Farage should have been with Cameron
than Farage would Win,


The PM is doing Scare You tactics

[joeysteele]

Boris Johnson for me is losing respect every day for his dilly dallying on this,anyway I have little respect for him anyway, he said he would not seek being an MP until his terms of being Mayor were all completed.
So much for his word then..

All this for me now is petty of him, he is really likely only assessing the best chance to succeed Cameron,maybe even stick the knife in as to that too if there is an exit vote which Boris was likely part of.
Maybe not as much for him about the EU as his personal ambitions to lead the party and be PM.

Cameron was to be fair really good on Marr and for me and I been undecided,he would have likely swayed me with what he said.

[arista]

5PM Boris gives SkyNewsHD a Statement

Meanwhile the BBCNewsHD said just now
"the BBC believes Boris is to Vote Out of Europe"

[MTVN]

I don't think Boris is even passionate about leaving the EU, he's just calculating the best move for his career and his own profile. He knows now that if we do vote to leave then he will most likely be the next Tory leader and with it the next Prime Minister

[arista]

Boris is live now

sounds like he in the middle

But he Has now said he is part of Vote Leave.

[bots]

I don't think Boris is even passionate about leaving the EU, he's just calculating the best move for his career and his own profile. He knows now that if we do vote to leave then he will most likely be the next Tory leader and with it the next Prime Minister

I think this is it, whatever way he jumps it will be done so that it doesn't damage his future prospects. Also, I can't help but feel that the Telegraph must have paid Boris for his exclusive announcement, what on earth is all that about

[arista]

Boris will not take part in any Platforms with others.


But Has Confirmed he wants to Leave The EU

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/21/448412/default/v2/gettyimages-511563226-1-736x414.jpg

[arista]

Feck Up BBC News camera stayed on Sky NewsHD reporter Fisal
on the right corner for 2mins

[Jords]

Im not all that political but Id say in.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/21/448422/default/v1/telegraph-new-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/21/448424/default/v1/times-new-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/21/448425/default/v0/guardian-new-1-992x558.jpg

[joeysteele]

I think actually of just about all those MPs who have made their points as to why they came down on the side they have, Boris Johnson's came across as the least sincere for me.

He just may have gambled the wrong way on this one and I loved Michael Heseltine's assessment of Boris's stance too.

Now there indeed speaking of Michael Heseltine, is a man worth listening to on this issue.

[Ammi]

I don't think Boris is even passionate about leaving the EU, he's just calculating the best move for his career and his own profile. He knows now that if we do vote to leave then he will most likely be the next Tory leader and with it the next Prime Minister

..I think that one of the worst types of party leader/or Prime Minister is one that is ego driven, which Boris always seems to be...

[Northern Monkey]

Good old Boris.He's an idiot but he's popular.

[joeysteele]

I think the amiable buffoon image is an act and the real person Boris is far from probably being someone to rely on.
Always out for himself and cunning with it.

[DemolitionRed]

Good old Boris.He's an idiot but he's popular.

But there's no denying he's a turn coat.

I'm sitting in a neutral position and its clear from where I'm sitting that Boris wanted to wait and see what the bookies were doing. Regardless of in or out, he's just lost his next chance of leading this government.

[DemolitionRed]

With the majority of Cameron's cabinet turning towards the out vote, does anyone else here think Camerons finished?

If we leave Europe will he be able to continue leading this country as a pro European ?
If we stay in, there's going to be a lot of Conservative MP's pushing for a referendum.

Which ever way we go, I can't see Cameron surviving this.

[Ammi]

I think the amiable buffoon image is an act and the real person Boris is far from probably being someone to rely on.
Always out for himself and cunning with it.

..I don't think for me personally and my thoughts Joey, is that it's an act..I do think that 'the amiable buffoon' is a genuine part of who he is but it's more that I think other things/dimensions get over-looked because of that aspect of his character..and as we know, everyone I multi-dimensional in their personality...he wouldn't have achieved anything at all, had he only been a lovable/type buffoon...and he also seems to like to be controversial and 'go against' for attention...so my fear if he ever were to become PM, is that the whole country and all of his cabinet could be screaming NOOOO/etc...and he would go with YES/lights, camera, action.../because of his ego and controversial attention...

[arista]

A lot of anti-Boris statements suddenly knocking around, It seems like the in crowd are pretty bitter to lose him.


But he will not get on any platforms or TV debates.

Which is Wise as he is a MP and Mayor

[arista]

I'd like to know what The Monarch and future Monarch's are leaning towards.


Split views
must never be leaked

[arista]

The PM and MP's keep using
this wrong term " Into the Darkness"

Thats Pathetic

[arista]

George Galloway
on the Daily Politics
got Very Angry with Jo - the weak presenter.

She wanted to debate the few that left the meeting
on that day he was on Farage's stage

He would not Debate himself at all.
Fair Play to him

[Jack_]

So glad I was randomly tuned in to that, hilarious TV :joker: :joker: :joker:

[bots]

..I don't think for me personally and my thoughts Joey, is that it's an act..I do think that 'the amiable buffoon' is a genuine part of who he is but it's more that I think other things/dimensions get over-looked because of that aspect of his character..and as we know, everyone I multi-dimensional in their personality...he wouldn't have achieved anything at all, had he only been a lovable/type buffoon...and he also seems to like to be controversial and 'go against' for attention...so my fear if he ever were to become PM, is that the whole country and all of his cabinet could be screaming NOOOO/etc...and he would go with YES/lights, camera, action.../because of his ego and controversial attention...

Pretty accurate summary of him from my perspective. I think he is very dangerous because of his happy/jolly/buffoon persona

[bots]

He wouldn't have been dangerous had he sided with the in crowd.

I'm not overly fussed if we are in or out ... its the first time I know my vote will count ... and I'm not really bothered on the result :laugh:

For example, we were rather successful being in charge of our own destiny for centuries, so from that perspective, its not a leap into the dark.

On the other side of it, I don't think a Paris style attack is more likely because we are in rather than out of europe. That is a statement without foundation.

Another statement without foundation is that we are more at risk of terrorist attack out of Europe as stated by Cameron. The same intelligence will still be shared, that doesn't stop on EU exit

So the first few for/against arguments have been complete bollocks so far. It doesn't bode well for the rest of the campaign

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/22/448609/default/v2/cegrab-20160222-153101-317-1-736x414.jpg
Yes The PM made his case

The Labour leader talking right now is like the Bernie Saunders show


Cameron Rules Out Second EU Referendum
Bloody Right we are not like the Irish
http://news.sky.com/story/1646538/cameron-rules-out-second-eu-referendum

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/21/448406/default/v1/boris-2-1-736x414.jpg
Boris Mania 2 days back



He just spoke
Live in the House.
But The PM did not answer his question proper

[arista]

Feck me PM

We do not have to make a case of like Norway or Denmark
they are Nothing like the UK.
We are a nation that Europe wants to trade with (in or out of the fecker)


Also PM stop saying our Security
is at risk.
Utter Bollocks.

MI5 talks direct to France Security
about terrorists (in or out of the EU)

[joeysteele]

Actually for me, David Cameron is wiping the floor with those trying to pick holes in his deal in this debate.
Especially the response he gave to Nadine Dorries,great stuff.

[arista]

Actually for me, David Cameron is wiping the floor with those trying to pick holes in his deal in this debate.
Especially the response he gave to Nadine Dorries,great stuff.


Of Course he knew the Questions
and Nadine should have checked with his office
to get the truth

[arista]

Also , PM , Everyone Voting
knows it is In or Out - One Time Only

We are not Ireland

[hijaxers]

Drop me out
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160220/5b0bb4021749d3a681a8485f46d18719.jpg

I'll arrange the plane - you kick it out the door :joker:

[arista]

Rees-Mogg going to town on Cameron



Yes he knows his stuff

[hijaxers]

I'm not overly fussed if we are in or out ... its the first time I know my vote will count ... and I'm not really bothered on the result :laugh:

For example, we were rather successful being in charge of our own destiny for centuries, so from that perspective, its not a leap into the dark.

On the other side of it, I don't think a Paris style attack is more likely because we are in rather than out of europe. That is a statement without foundation.

Another statement without foundation is that we are more at risk of terrorist attack out of Europe as stated by Cameron. The same intelligence will still be shared, that doesn't stop on EU exit

So the first few for/against arguments have been complete bollocks so far. It doesn't bode well for the rest of the campaign

Well no change there - Cameron always talks bollocks and its usually on a loop

[arista]

Top Press Preview 10:30PM
on SkyNewsHD ,who unlike BBC news 15mins, do a full 25mins
Kevin Maguire (Daily Mirror Assoc . Editor)
and
Andrew Pierce (Daily Mail Assit . Editor)

[Northern Monkey]

Feck me PM

We do not have to make a case of like Norway or Denmark
they are Nothing like the UK.
We are a nation that Europe wants to trade with (in or out of the fecker)


Also PM stop saying our Security
is at risk.
Utter Bollocks.

MI5 talks direct to France Security
about terrorists (in or out of the EU)This

[Northern Monkey]

"Tuck ya shirt in Boris":joker:

For the first time i actually agreed with Corbyn when he refered to Camerons deal as "a theatrical sideshow".Cameron came back with nothing fundamental that would change anybodies position.

[DemolitionRed]

The problem is, there's no real information happening. All we are getting is, who's in and who's out which doesn't help the 'don't know-ers'.


Is the entire EU going to go belly up if we go through with this divorce?
Is Scotland going to have another referendum on leaving the UK? and what about Northern Ireland? what about Whales? Are we just going to end up a small corner shop on a spit of land? There is absolutely no doubt that trading is going to be tougher. Yes, we've done it before but that was back in 1945 when we had a lot more industry.

The question is, are we going to be worse off better off? nobody knows, not even the economists and so Brexit is an experiment that could work or not.

[Northern Monkey]

What do the Whales have to do with it?Are they subject to border controls?:joker:

[MTVN]

Also , PM , Everyone Voting
knows it is In or Out - One Time Only

We are not Ireland

Boris doesn't

[DemolitionRed]

What do the Whales have to do with it?Are they subject to border controls?:joker:

No but neither are Scotland...yet!

[arista]

Boris doesn't


He does know
its one time vote only.


Farage Live on Ch4HD News now

[joeysteele]

Boris doesn't

He,Boris Johnson, really annoys me.
Okay I am no fan of David Cameron whatsoever for many reasons but over this whole issue, Johnson seems to me to have deliberately gone out of his way to cause problems and embarrass the PM.

His back and forth opinion as to how he may decide to go, his long drawn out saga of announcing same over the last week too,his not announcing anything when all the others did, waiting to do it on his own,to maximise his own publicity at the time he did it.

Discounting near all the PM said, as to what he has achieved in this deal and now he is mumbling on about getting a better deal because he thinks maybe saying no may bring an offer of one.

The man is an idiot, an absolute idiot in my view but sadly and unfortunately a very clever one.
However I really hope this backfires on him in two ways,1) the UK votes to stay in, and, 2) he doesn't get the Conservative leadership after David Cameron goes.

[Kizzy]

I agree Joey he's shrewd and calculating, he's been biding his time waiting to get a foothold... my god it just gets worse! :/

[joeysteele]

Top Press Preview 10:30PM
on SkyNewsHD ,who unlike BBC news 15mins, do a full 25mins
Kevin Maguire (Daily Mirror Assoc . Editor)
and
Andrew Pierce (Daily Mail Assit . Editor)

I cannot stand either of those 2, I always go to BBC when these 2 are doing the press review on Sky.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/22/448670/default/v2/ft-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/22/448674/default/v2/guardian-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/2/22/448668/default/v2/telegraph-1-992x558.jpg

[DemolitionRed]

Great for exporters, not so good for importers. Its suspect that this has happened within 24 hours of Johnson's announcement.

[Livia]

We import and export more outside the EU than we do inside the EU. The USA is probably our major market, a country with whom we share a common language (well, kind of...). People say we're stronger as a part of a larger unit and that's true... because we're already a part of a large, successful, functioning unit: The Commonwealth.

[Cherie]

So let me get this straight Boris wants a no vote so we can renegotiate a better deal and what then?

[arista]

So let me get this straight Boris wants a no vote so we can renegotiate a better deal and what then?


That was a silly newspaper version.


Voting Out is just that
More Control
Better World Business
No More Europe Corruption

[Northern Monkey]

We import and export more outside the EU than we do inside the EU. The USA is probably our major market, a country with whom we share a common language (well, kind of...). People say we're stronger as a part of a larger unit and that's true... because we're already a part of a large, successful, functioning unit: The Commonwealth.

I'm with you:dance:

[joeysteele]

We import and export more outside the EU than we do inside the EU. The USA is probably our major market, a country with whom we share a common language (well, kind of...). People say we're stronger as a part of a larger unit and that's true... because we're already a part of a large, successful, functioning unit: The Commonwealth.

That may be a highly successful route to take no doubt but 'may be' is the term,the certainty is not there.

Canada is trying to get a deal with the EU,the USA has made it clear it wants the UK to remain in the EU and the biggest of the Commonwealth Nations, India, also prefers the UK in the EU too.

[DemolitionRed]

The document I've posted makes it is clear that 'Parliamentary Outers' are not giving the full facts on how they are going to achieve trade deals.

Jean-Claude PIRIS, Consultant for EU Law and International Public Law.
http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/doc/questions-d-europe/qe-355-en.pdf

[bots]

For me,so far, the arguments for in/out have not been convincing at all. Some of the MP's are trying to feign passion in their speeches, others really don't give a crap. Corbyn's speech was hilarious. Recited from a piece of paper with the passion of piece of wet lettuce. The prime minister doesn't give a crap, Boris the buffoon spouts all sorts of meaningless drivel, and the rest just outright lie. Personally, it's shaping up to be the biggest non event in my lifetime with opposite sides arguing for the sake of it, with no conviction at all.

[Kizzy]

He wants in but he's saying he wants out because he thinks that'll get him more votes in the next leadership election....sigh.

[MTVN]

Eurosceptics quoting people like Tony Benn and Galloway one minute and Farage the next, if anyone is undecided surely seeing these two as bedfellows is enough to convince them to vote In

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/20/22/316709BF00000578-0-image-a-2_1456008227824.jpg

[MTVN]

For me,so far, the arguments for in/out have not been convincing at all. Some of the MP's are trying to feign passion in their speeches, others really don't give a crap. Corbyn's speech was hilarious. Recited from a piece of paper with the passion of piece of wet lettuce. The prime minister doesn't give a crap, Boris the buffoon spouts all sorts of meaningless drivel, and the rest just outright lie. Personally, it's shaping up to be the biggest non event in my lifetime with opposite sides arguing for the sake of it, with no conviction at all.

I'm surprised you think that actually, I take almost the opposite view. I think this is one issue which does genuinely evoke passion in MPs and really test both their ideology and their personal loyalties. Gove's statement was the most nuanced and optimistic argument I have heard for leaving the EU while I think Cameron gave the speech of his life in the Commons yesterday in favour of it.

A lot of people are dreading three months of the EU dominating the news - I'm looking forward to it, it's going to be great

[MTVN]

Have also added a poll to this thread to see what people think. It will close in two months time after which I'll open another one so we can see how opinion changes and see if any undecideds make their mind up. Complete transparency on TiBB as always, no voter privacy :pipe2:

[Cherie]

Undecided but leaning towards staying in..

[joeysteele]

Remain in solidly for me.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Definitely IN.

[Kizzy]

In.

[kirklancaster]

I am simply amazed to see the 'Left' leaning 'Labour' supporters on here voting 'IN'.

Anyway, first things first:

Cameron came away from his 'EU dinner' with a big fat 'ZERO', and I do not understand the ballyhoo and cries of triumph from the 'IN CROWD'.

I will not go into analysis of the 'non deal' itself because I have not time, but NOTHING which Cameron claims to have 'won' is legally binding, and has no credence in actual EU law.

There is a huge gulf in meaning between a 'commitment' and a 'clarification' and an 'agreement', and everything which Cameron so dishonestly claims as a 'victory' is nothing more than a series of 'promises' which totally rely on being 'honoured' at some later date by FUTURE leaders (not necessarily the ones MAKING these promises) IF they are ALL in agreement, and which, in any event, can be overruled by The European Court of Justice AND the European Parliament.

Cameron has nothing more than a 'Letter of Intent' for those who understand business parlance, and it is nothing more than the result of a lot of 'Behind Closed Doors' political gerrymandering by he, Merkels, Tusk, and other 'self-interested' corrupt bastards to come up with a solution which will 'con' the UK electorate that we 'have a better deal' from our 'Overlords' in Brussels in order to persuade them to vote to remain in, whilst actually giving us nothing.

And do we trust the EU to honour its 'Letter of Intent' - because they have renaged on their promises to other UK Leaders before - and the very fact that Merkels says of Cameron's 'Victories' that they "May never happen" and that Hollande says of the same, that; "there was “no revision of the treaties planned” is enough to not only answer that question, but also tell anyone just what Cameron actually 'WON' in truth.


And the fact that our PRIME MINISTER had to obsequiously commit to a 'Grovelling Tour' of the the other EU Member 'States' to arse-lick and beg for their support PRIOR to his non-event 'Dinner', is enough to tell anyone all they need to know about BRITISH SOVEREIGNTY under our membership of the EU.

OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT

[kirklancaster]

I'm not a Eurosceptic, there's nothing wrong with Europe. I'm a European Union sceptic, because I believe in democracy, which we don't get with the EU.

Nigel Farage actually does talk quite a bit of sense given the chance, Galloway however, I'm no fan of, but happen to be on the same side on this issue.

Well said.

[bots]

I voted for the status quo because the arguments so far have just been completely over egged from either side with no basis in reality or consideration of facts.

However, i could be convinced to vote no if it meant an end to Nigel Farage and UKIP

[joeysteele]

I am simply amazed to see the 'Left' leaning 'Labour' supporters on here voting 'IN'.

Anyway, first things first:

Cameron came away from his 'EU dinner' with a big fat 'ZERO', and I do not understand the ballyhoo and cries of triumph from the 'IN CROWD'.

I will not go into analysis of the 'non deal' itself because I have not time, but NOTHING which Cameron claims to have 'won' is legally binding, and has no credence in actual EU law.

There is a huge gulf in meaning between a 'commitment' and a 'clarification' and an 'agreement', and everything which Cameron so dishonestly claims as a 'victory' is nothing more than a series of 'promises' which totally rely on being 'honoured' at some later date by FUTURE leaders (not necessarily the ones MAKING these promises) IF they are ALL in agreement, and which, in any event, can be overruled by The European Court of Justice AND the European Parliament.

Cameron has nothing more than a 'Letter of Intent' for those who understand business parlance, and it is nothing more than the result of a lot of 'Behind Closed Doors' political gerrymandering by he, Merkels, Tusk, and other 'self-interested' corrupt bastards to come up with a solution which will 'con' the UK electorate that we 'have a better deal' from our 'Overlords' in Brussels in order to persuade them to vote to remain in, whilst actually giving us nothing.

And do we trust the EU to honour its 'Letter of Intent' - because they have renaged on their promises to other UK Leaders before - and the very fact that Merkels says of Cameron's 'Victories' that they "May never happen" and that Hollande says of the same, that; "there was “no revision of the treaties planned” is enough to not only answer that question, but also tell anyone just what Cameron actually 'WON' in truth.


And the fact that our PRIME MINISTER had to obsequiously commit to a 'Grovelling Tour' of the the other EU Member 'States' to arse-lick and beg for their support PRIOR to his non-event 'Dinner', is enough to tell anyone all they need to know about BRITISH SOVEREIGNTY under our membership of the EU.

OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT

It was out of etiquette and respect that Cameron went to all the other Nations to sound them out on what he was hoping to get.
Duty called he had to do that.

I have no liking for the man as a politician but I think you are unfair to say he grovelled,he did the opposite, even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator.
I'd agree with that on this.

He could have easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that.
he didn't he stood his ground and 'forced, yes forced a deal from them in the end, not by grovelling but by real debate and compromise.

By the way, up until I was 20, I was a more Conservative supporter, probably more of my life has been as one.
even then as now,I have always been a supporter of being in the EU.

It is not about being right or left on here voting one way or another,many Conservative voters will vote to stay in, even some Lib Dems,what is left of them, may vote to come out.
Nothing left or right about the issue,just a serious choice to make and I know and have explained why I have made mine without getting at people on the left, right or centre for any reason.

[Suze]

Out.

[joeysteele]

I find Priti Patel very condescending at the best of times,again I disagree more than I agee with her on this too.

Anyway India has expressed its wish for the UK to remain in the EU.

[joeysteele]

Well Tony Benn was in my view a great politician who I read loads about, who always wanted out of the then Common Market and then the EU afterwards, in fact he never likely wanted to go in at all.

In fact I understand a good many of my own Family back in 1975, voted to leave at that time but will now be voting to stay in.
Tony Benn I'm sure would be making a case for leaving still,his son Hilary however is helping in making the case for Staying in.

It is 40 years on now from the last vote, at that time, we had only been in around 2 years, this,for me now, is a vastly different time and vote now,with some gains to be made from leaving, I agree,for me though, far more to lose now.

In 1975 however,after only being in a short time,reverting back then to what we had before would have been a far easier prospect.
Leaving was rejected then by the voters and I hope for a repeat of this that time too.

Odd how when Tony Benn was advocating getting out of Europe in the early 1980s, he was branded by Conservatives a lunatic and by their press as one of the most dangerous men in Britain.

[T*]

I want out

[Vicky.]

Undecided tbh.

[Northern Monkey]

For me Cameron did'nt get everything he asked for and did'nt ask for enough.It is not a reformed EU by any stretch.Camerons "I want to be part of a reformed EU" has failed.

[smudgie]

Initially I was in, then I was leaning towards out, now I am totally undecided.
Hopefully somewhere along the next 4 months I will make my mind up.
I will be listening to what the farmers say as well as the politicians,

[DemolitionRed]

Initially I was in, then I was leaning towards out, now I am totally undecided.
Hopefully somewhere along the next 4 months I will make my mind up.
I will be listening to what the farmers say as well as the politicians,

Small holding farmers have been fleeced by the EU but what's to say those huge subsidies the Lords, Ladies and large estate owners presently get, wouldn't continue if we leave the EU?

[smudgie]

Small holding farmers have been fleeced by the EU but what's to say those huge subsidies the Lords, Ladies and large estate owners presently get, wouldn't continue if we leave the EU?

NFU were on yesterday, mentioned a little about the pro's and cons.
I will see what the locals have to say about it.
Funny enough hubby's cousin is a gentleman farmer..I doubt he will have anything to say to us though.:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

[Kizzy]

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

Here you go.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157

[bots]

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?

its given us something to moan about for 40 years :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Ah well if we leave the EU we can all moan about having no rights or TTIP or whatever.

[DemolitionRed]

Initially I was in, then I was leaning towards out, now I am totally undecided.
Hopefully somewhere along the next 4 months I will make my mind up.
I will be listening to what the farmers say as well as the politicians,

This is me ^

Rock... :conf:Me...Hardplace

[DemolitionRed]

Why the hell does Farage speak to us like he's speaking to a nursery school class? Its speeches like that, that really piss me off. He just mutters fairytales and doesn't talk about the possibilities and likelihoods like Woodford: https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/#trade-and-the-manufacturing-industry

Here's a final paragraph from that link.

“In addition, falling tariffs, the decline in manufacturing and Europe’s diminishing importance in the global economy mean we doubt that even the absence of a trade deal with the European Union would hurt the United Kingdom’s overall exports materially. The benefits of being in the European Union are smaller than they were a few decades ago, when a Brexit would have been a far bigger deal. However, the effects will vary across sectors. Brexit would give Britain a crucial opportunity by allowing it to broker its own trade deals with non-European Union countries; indeed Britain could even have a unilateral free trade policy. Non-European Union countries may find negotiating with Britain easier and quicker than dealing with the European Union’s bureaucratic machine, as Switzerland has shown.”

[Kizzy]

And movement, does he address freedom of movement? I thought that would be the first issue he clarified...

[joeysteele]

Perhaps some 'In' supporters would like to enlighten me in simple one liners just WHAT benefits we have had from the EU over the past 40 years?


I will be happy too once those who say come out actually list the full guarantees the UK would have for sure in the future,as to if we hit financial difficulty, as to totally 100% cast iron trade deals that will be lucrative.
When they can guarantee that and more across the board and for sure substantiate the UK is safer out of the EU,in light of what those concerned with defence past and present have said today.
When we get explained in full such guarantees then I for one will look at that and listen and take on board what I can as I always have at times on here anyway in the past.

However,what the 'in' people would present as benefits would be dismissed totally by the 'out for certain' people anyway so we would be likely wasting our time just as the out people would likely be on the certain 'in' people too,with no full guarantees.

I however believe as to social justice the EU has improved things in the UK,workers rights too and also I still think many times economically, we could have been in difficulties more out of the EU rather than in it
I believe in Nations coming together not moving apart,especially now at this time too,so I fully support the closer and closer ties to the rest of Europe.
I feel we are greatly more safe and ready to deal with international problems, from being within the EU, rather than out of it.

I accept there is a lot wrong with the EU,I do however now believe that PM Cameron has won a pretty good deal overall, one that 'I think', I don't know for sure, will lead to reform and better conditions within the EU in the future.
I think he has lit a match,that will light up many other changes to come that will be for the better for all in the long term inside the EU.

Even with all its faults, and there are many.
I know for sure where we are now in the EU and where it may go in the future, I know we never have to worry about trying to win trade deals as we already have them. I know we never have to worry about any more treaties from the EU as any new treaty will have to be put to the UK in a referendum before any PM can sign it.

So I see exactly where we are, and where we are going if we stay in, some good, some fair and some bad but at least I know.
What I don't know for sure is what will really happen as to the UK,if it comes out, what trade deals will we get, what costs and conditions will those deals bring with them.
I hear nothing about that at all from the 'out' people,and therefore for me,with nothing really guaranteed or even being able to be spelled out as to life outside the EU for the UK, well I am not prepared to take the Country I was born in, into an unknown, and not only risk its future but also the future of those who are the youngest of the UK and who will be the UKs future eventually.

So that's a bit of why I support being in the EU and if the 'out' camps cannot give full guarantees of what will be the 'real' case for the UK across the board out of the EU, well without that I would only suggest any undecided think carefully before jumping out the boat, when they can only have at best little, and even maybe no idea how deep the water is when they do.

That is not a risk I am prepared to take and I also believe after 40 years in Europe connected by trade and all that has come in those decades.
After Cameron's hard work, yes hard work in my view over the last week, we must be able to now do and achieve much more and even better from within it as a full member, than out of it.

Now can the 'out' people list the full 100% guarantees of how much better the UK 'will' be, not 'may' be outside the EU.
Because that is what the undecided need to be told and guaranteed too.
Never mind challenging the 'in' crowd,let's have some concrete and fully substantiated guarantees from the 'out' crowd.

[joeysteele]

Is it possible that Nigel Farage will go down in the history books as a British Hero?

I understand that's hard for some people to believe right now.


8tT3FBdnufc

No, not for me he won't. I do admire his sincerity and even his principles but think most of them are wrong,for me anyway.

[MTVN]

NFU were on yesterday, mentioned a little about the pro's and cons.
I will see what the locals have to say about it.
Funny enough hubby's cousin is a gentleman farmer..I doubt he will have anything to say to us though.:laugh:

I went to an EU debate a few months back where the Deputy President of the NFU was involved, she was pretty non-committal tbf but seemed to veer more towards Remain because of the risks and uncertainty of what Brexit would look like and what it would mean

[smudgie]

I went to an EU debate a few months back where the Deputy President of the NFU was involved, she was pretty non-committal tbf but seemed to veer more towards Remain because of the risks and uncertainty of what Brexit would look like and what it would mean

It really interests me in what they have to say about it, I know that the farmers have had a couple of bad years and are expecting the same from this year, but that can steer them towards staying in with the compensation scheme on offer.
One thing is for sure, we are in for an interesting 4 months or so, the politics shows will be going into overdrive. No doubt TIBB will be the same.

[DemolitionRed]

Thanks wannashag.
OMG he's had the same speech coach as Cameron hasn't he?!. He uses the same quotes, the same pauses and the same inflections. The only difference between him and Cameron is, he says 'er' just a bit too often!

Interesting what he said about the US trade representative, Michael Froman. Doesn't that frighten you? it does me.

Anyway, just for good measure, its worth repeating:
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Donald Rumsfeld

[DemolitionRed]

I went to an EU debate a few months back where the Deputy President of the NFU was involved, she was pretty non-committal tbf but seemed to veer more towards Remain because of the risks and uncertainty of what Brexit would look like and what it would mean

I remember you saying. Its really worth attending such debates if you can because you get a lot more out of them than anything you can read online.

Is this a load of hype or an important part of future history we are living through?

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8532424]It was out of etiquette and respect that Cameron went to all the other Nations to sound them out on what he was hoping to get.
Duty called he had to do that.

It had NOTHING to do with 'Duty', 'etiquette' or 'respect' and everything to do with BEING SEEN to act out a plan hatched behind closed doors - a plan which would appease the Great British Public by convincing them that when Cameron subsequently had his 'Brussels Dinner Date' he had pulled off a coup and a victory.

"I have no liking for the man as a politician but I think you are unfair to say he grovelled,he did the opposite, even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator.
I'd agree with that on this."

I have - as you all know - been supportive of Cameron and a lot of Tory policies on here, so I have no personal axe to grind in criticising Cameron now. He is wrong. He is being as corrupt and deceitful on this as Heath and Blair were concerning the TRUTH about the EU, and when you say that; "even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator" - well, 'THEY' WOULD describe him as a 'tough negotiator' wouldn't they, because it is part of the ruse to convince the GBP that his 'non-victories' were 'hard fought' and therefore genuine.

"He could have easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that.
he didn't he stood his ground and 'forced, yes forced a deal from them in the end, not by grovelling but by real debate and compromise."

There is absolutely NO WAY that Cameron could have "easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that." because THEN that considerable majority of the Great British Public which consists of Eurosceptics and 'Don't Knows' would have SEEN him come away TOTALLY empty handed after being SNUBBED, and thus the Eurosceptic stance would have been justified and the 'Don't Knows' would have become 'OUT' voters because they would have seen the REAL status quo of just WHO HOLDS THE POWER over this country, which is BRUSSELS and NOT our own PRIME MINISTER.

Such a scenario was NEVER going to be allowed to happen because the EU NEEDS the UK - we DO NOT NEED THE EU and NEVER HAVE - and a handful of nothing convinces where nothing in the hand does not. Cameron won NO concessions from his 'Dinner Date', just 'Letters of Intent' and 'IOU's' - all mere promises to consider and none legally binding, but all carefully calculated to hoodwink the British public and convert the 'Don't Knows' to the EU cause.

"It is not about being right or left on here voting one way or another,many Conservative voters will vote to stay in, even some Lib Dems,what is left of them, may vote to come out.
Nothing left or right about the issue,just a serious choice to make and I know and have explained why I have made mine without getting at people on the left, right or centre for any reason."


You really do need to calm down Joey - I was not 'getting at the 'Left' or anyone else when I said that I was surprised to see 'Left leaning' and 'Labour Supporters' voting to remain 'IN'.

I meant EXACTLY what I wrote, that I was surprised by it, and I am surprised by it because the REAL EU is the total antithesis of Socialism, is the ultimate exponent of Neo-Liberalism, and is wholly hegemonic.

Much has been written about the proposals within the EU for the so-called 'Robin Hood Tax' or 'Tobin Tax' which is yet another ploy by our greedy Brussels Overlords to get its grubby corrupt little hands on even more of our money, but very little said about what I call the 'Sheriff of Nottingham Tax', which is the very raison d'etre of the EU, and the reason that the abhorrent Ted Heath LIED to the British Public and took us into the 'Common Market' in the first place - after much gerrymandering and scheming behind closed doors.

The EU is the ultimate ROB THE POOR and GIVE TO THE SUPER RICH organisation. It is a 40 year old CON perpetrated against the UK people - a legitimate 'MONEY LAUNDERING' scam.

Nigel Farage stated CORRECTLY that the UK GROSS payment to our Brussels overlords is £20 BILLION POUNDS per YEAR - or £55 MILLION POUNDS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

After rebates and other 'returns', this figure is reduced to £12 BILLION POUNDS per year - or £33 MILLION POUNDS NET PAYMENT EACH AND EVERY DAY.

This payment is collected from the taxes of ALL working UK citizens - REGARDLESS of their ability to AFFORD it.

40 years of paying £55 million pounds each and every day - or the equivalent amount in past years.

But WHO REALLY BENEFITS from the rebates?

The HARD PRESSED STRUGGLING lower paid working classes?
The SME's - Small to Medium Size Enterprises and Self-Employed?
Small Farmers?

Or THE GIANT MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS and SUPER RICH LANDOWNERS?

The TRUTH is out there.

And just as a footnote to endorse what I say above, the FLOODGATES are OPEN:

UK is being forced to pay back up to £43 BILLION in tax to giant companies...thanks (surprise, surprise) to EU courts
Major corporations have been awarded hundreds of millions of pounds
Dozens of firms are contesting UK tax payments dating back to 1973
Companies including Marks & Spencer and Ford have fought HMRC
British American Tobacco was given £620million after EU court ruling


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3446041/UK-forced-pay-43-BILLION-tax-giant-companies-thanks-surprise-surprise-EU-courts.html#ixzz419Wp6Fsl

[joeysteele]

Well anything you join in the main you pay more in than you get out, a football fan with a season ticket pays in loads every year and often gets little in the way of much back, as to team performances.
Not the best comparison but any club or association anyone joins that has a fee, you will be paying in funds to have that privilege.

I really cannot agree with your breakdown Kirk of my points which I knew would be just dismissed anyway by you, as I even actually inferred in my reply post to you.

I really do consider Cameron did do a good deal,I do also believe he could have got frustrated and just walked away,it may have been had he done so, the EU would have asked him back to do the deal then, however he fought to get it and I do applaud him for that.
With respect you maybe see no good as to Cameron's efforts here because he has come down on the staying in side.

Had he walked away and it was clear EU leaders had not been willing to budge, although disappointed,I would have accepted he still tried his best on this.
You and I for 2 people,are not going to agree because all you want to do is likely leave the EU no matter what the PM had likely achieved too and no matter what anyone else says.
I on the opposite side to you rigidly want to stay in because I 100% believe our future in the UK is better assured in that strong grouping of Nations.

Also with respect, in your reply above I see nothing from you that assures me of the UKs future out of the EU being better,what you list is the old arguments of paying in more than we get out.
However in very bad examples, there are many things I am a member of which I have to pay to be in and get no funding back.

Security, an assured economic future,social issues and workers rights etc.I could go on but this post would run into masses of pages,they are things that matter to me and I am one who believes in the EU they are best served even at membership cost.

Also really, you think he didn't need to go to all the Nations of the UK on this,anybody going to negotiate a better deal needs to sound out the people they need to convince of the need for one,I find it astonishing you say he didn't need to or should not have.
Of course it was etiquette and duty to go and sound all the Nations out,I for sure would have.
had he not done so, any deal could have been scuppered anyway by assuming arrogance the EU Nations were all just going to agree with his plans anyway.

I still don't get why you always seem dismayed at the actions of those on the left as to staying in, while at the same time seemingly not surprised at all by any of the actions of those on the right, either voting in or out.
You always seem to have to make a point in a negative way as to those on the left and what they say and intend to do,balance things with right and left then no problem,however it seems you have no problem at all with the right no matter their intentions or actions or comments.

That is why I again raised it as I have with you many times before,Also by the way,I am perfectly calm too thank you.

You still in your post gave,in my opinion, none of the guarantees needed to take a walk out of the EU for good, I saw nothing in your post that indicated apart from being better off for a short while maybe in some way before any new trading deals were negotiated
that would convince me that anyone in politics even has a secure and prepared plan for what we do if we vote to leave.
I know for sure labour hasn't and doubt anyone else has too,according to UKIP once the paying money to the EU is done and we can then control immigration more, we will be in a state of Utopia.
That is a world away from how I see things in the really big picture.

That to me is like people setting out on a journey and having little or no idea where they are supposed to be even going.
In such a scenario, for me, if that's the case and the out people cannot tell us what exactly the guarantees are for the security and future of the UK out of the EU.
Then not risking setting out on such a journey in the first place is what appeals to me,I will vote to stay where I know what the future looks like and where I am at present thank you.
I would also be doing so whether I was on the right or on the left of politics,which I think is irrelevant anyway personally.

[Northern Monkey]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8532424]It was out of etiquette and respect that Cameron went to all the other Nations to sound them out on what he was hoping to get.
Duty called he had to do that.

It had NOTHING to do with 'Duty', 'etiquette' or 'respect' and everything to do with BEING SEEN to act out a plan hatched behind closed doors - a plan which would appease the Great British Public by convincing them that when Cameron subsequently had his 'Brussels Dinner Date' he had pulled off a coup and a victory.

"I have no liking for the man as a politician but I think you are unfair to say he grovelled,he did the opposite, even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator.
I'd agree with that on this."

I have - as you all know - been supportive of Cameron and a lot of Tory policies on here, so I have no personal axe to grind in criticising Cameron now. He is wrong. He is being as corrupt and deceitful on this as Heath and Blair were concerning the TRUTH about the EU, and when you say that; "even they described him in the end as a tough negotiator" - well, 'THEY' WOULD describe him as a 'tough negotiator' wouldn't they, because it is part of the ruse to convince the GBP that his 'non-victories' were 'hard fought' and therefore genuine.

"He could have easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that.
he didn't he stood his ground and 'forced, yes forced a deal from them in the end, not by grovelling but by real debate and compromise."

There is absolutely NO WAY that Cameron could have "easily got up and said, right, the UK will not go for what you are offering and then leave it at that." because THEN that considerable majority of the Great British Public which consists of Eurosceptics and 'Don't Knows' would have SEEN him come away TOTALLY empty handed after being SNUBBED, and thus the Eurosceptic stance would have been justified and the 'Don't Knows' would have become 'OUT' voters because they would have seen the REAL status quo of just WHO HOLDS THE POWER over this country, which is BRUSSELS and NOT our own PRIME MINISTER.

Such a scenario was NEVER going to be allowed to happen because the EU NEEDS the UK - we DO NOT NEED THE EU and NEVER HAVE - and a handful of nothing convinces where nothing in the hand does not. Cameron won NO concessions from his 'Dinner Date', just 'Letters of Intent' and 'IOU's' - all mere promises to consider and none legally binding, but all carefully calculated to hoodwink the British public and convert the 'Don't Knows' to the EU cause.

"It is not about being right or left on here voting one way or another,many Conservative voters will vote to stay in, even some Lib Dems,what is left of them, may vote to come out.
Nothing left or right about the issue,just a serious choice to make and I know and have explained why I have made mine without getting at people on the left, right or centre for any reason."


You really do need to calm down Joey - I was not 'getting at the 'Left' or anyone else when I said that I was surprised to see 'Left leaning' and 'Labour Supporters' voting to remain 'IN'.

I meant EXACTLY what I wrote, that I was surprised by it, and I am surprised by it because the REAL EU is the total antithesis of Socialism, is the ultimate exponent of Neo-Liberalism, and is wholly hegemonic.

Much has been written about the proposals within the EU for the so-called 'Robin Hood Tax' or 'Tobin Tax' which is yet another ploy by our greedy Brussels Overlords to get its grubby corrupt little hands on even more of our money, but very little said about what I call the 'Sheriff of Nottingham Tax', which is the very raison d'etre of the EU, and the reason that the abhorrent Ted Heath LIED to the British Public and took us into the 'Common Market' in the first place - after much gerrymandering and scheming behind closed doors.

The EU is the ultimate ROB THE POOR and GIVE TO THE SUPER RICH organisation. It is a 40 year old CON perpetrated against the UK people - a legitimate 'MONEY LAUNDERING' scam.

Nigel Farage stated CORRECTLY that the UK GROSS payment to our Brussels overlords is £20 BILLION POUNDS per YEAR - or £55 MILLION POUNDS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

After rebates and other 'returns', this figure is reduced to £12 BILLION POUNDS per year - or £33 MILLION POUNDS NET PAYMENT EACH AND EVERY DAY.

This payment is collected from the taxes of ALL working UK citizens - REGARDLESS of their ability to AFFORD it.

40 years of paying £55 million pounds each and every day - or the equivalent amount in past years.

But WHO REALLY BENEFITS from the rebates?

The HARD PRESSED STRUGGLING lower paid working classes?
The SME's - Small to Medium Size Enterprises and Self-Employed?
Small Farmers?

Or THE GIANT MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS and SUPER RICH LANDOWNERS?

The TRUTH is out there.

And just as a footnote to endorse what I say above, the FLOODGATES are OPEN:

UK is being forced to pay back up to £43 BILLION in tax to giant companies...thanks (surprise, surprise) to EU courts
Major corporations have been awarded hundreds of millions of pounds
Dozens of firms are contesting UK tax payments dating back to 1973
Companies including Marks & Spencer and Ford have fought HMRC
British American Tobacco was given £620million after EU court ruling


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3446041/UK-forced-pay-43-BILLION-tax-giant-companies-thanks-surprise-surprise-EU-courts.html#ixzz419Wp6Fsl:clap1: :clap1:
Excellent summary of things i could'nt remember/could'nt be arsed to type out but have read and heard before and why i am firmly OUT.
Very good post.

[Northern Monkey]

Well anything you join in the main you pay more in than you get out, a football fan with a season ticket pays in loads every year and often gets little in the way of much back, as to team performances.
Not the best comparison but any club or association anyone joins that has a fee, you will be paying in funds to have that privilege.

I really cannot agree with your breakdown Kirk of my points which I knew would be just dismissed anyway by you, as I even actually inferred in my reply post to you.

I really do consider Cameron did do a good deal,I do also believe he could have got frustrated and just walked away,it may have been had he done so, the EU would have asked him back to do the deal then, however he fought to get it and I do applaud him for that.
With respect you maybe see no good as to Cameron's efforts here because he has come down on the staying in side.

Had he walked away and it was clear EU leaders had not been willing to budge, although disappointed,I would have accepted he still tried his best on this.
You and I for 2 people,are not going to agree because all you want to do is likely leave the EU no matter what the PM had likely achieved too and no matter what anyone else says.
I on the opposite side to you rigidly want to stay in because I 100% believe our future in the UK is better assured in that strong grouping of Nations.

Also with respect, in your reply above I see nothing from you that assures me of the UKs future out of the EU being better,what you list is the old arguments of paying in more than we get out.
However in very bad examples, there are many things I am a member of which I have to pay to be in and get no funding back.

Security, an assured economic future,social issues and workers rights etc.I could go on but this post would run into masses of pages,they are things that matter to me and I am one who believes in the EU they are best served even at membership cost.

Also really, you think he didn't need to go to all the Nations of the UK on this,anybody going to negotiate a better deal needs to sound out the people they need to convince of the need for one,I find it astonishing you say he didn't need to or should not have.
Of course it was etiquette and duty to go and sound all the Nations out,I for sure would have.
had he not done so, any deal could have been scuppered anyway by assuming arrogance the EU Nations were all just going to agree with his plans anyway.

I still don't get why you always seem dismayed at the actions of those on the left as to staying in, while at the same time seemingly not surprised at all by any of the actions of those on the right, either voting in or out.
You always seem to have to make a point in a negative way as to those on the left and what they say and intend to do,balance things with right and left then no problem,however it seems you have no problem at all with the right no matter their intentions or actions or comments.

That is why I again raised it as I have with you many times before,Also by the way,I am perfectly calm too thank you.

You still in your post gave,in my opinion, none of the guarantees needed to take a walk out of the EU for good, I saw nothing in your post that indicated apart from being better off for a short while maybe in some way before any new trading deals were negotiated
that would convince me that anyone in politics even has a secure and prepared plan for what we do if we vote to leave.
I know for sure labour hasn't and doubt anyone else has too,according to UKIP once the paying money to the EU is done and we can then control immigration more, we will be in a state of Utopia.
That is a world away from how I see things in the really big picture.

That to me is like people setting out on a journey and having little or no idea where they are supposed to be even going.
In such a scenario, for me, if that's the case and the out people cannot tell us what exactly the guarantees are for the security and future of the UK out of the EU.
Then not risking setting out on such a journey in the first place is what appeals to me,I will vote to stay where I know what the future looks like and where I am at present thank you.
I would also be doing so whether I was on the right or on the left of politics,which I think is irrelevant anyway personally.I would say from the interviews i've seen with other EU politicians who seemed quite relaxed and at ease with everything Cameron asked for(not much at all).Cameron basically sat down and had a good old chinwag with them and they said 'right then what can we do to get the British public to think i'm actually coming home with something meaningful'.
Also as to knowing what the future holds within the EU.We know absolutely nothing.From what i can see just more and more erosion of democracy.
The 'deal' Cameron brought back were just as Kirk said IOU's which mean nothing and no treaty changes.The EU don't actually have to honour any of it if they so choose and what he did ask for was barely the tip of the iceberg of the real issues and he did'nt even get the things he asked for in full.

[DemolitionRed]

[

I said that I was surprised to see 'Left leaning' and 'Labour Supporters' voting to remain 'IN'.

There’s little doubt that the EU is deeply flawed and I don’t believe for a moment that Cameron has or wants to change equal rights for his labor market. The entire structure of the EU was to create a massive bias of capital and Camerons mission in Brussels was more about the rights and privileges for the City of London and not the Britain he governs.

I don’t yet see though, how we are going to be better off by leaving the EU. Whilst we may feel constrained now, I’m fairly sure that an economic utopia isn’t waiting around the corner for a stand alone Britain. We won’t be pulling out of just one union, almost certainly we will be pulling out of two because Scotland has already voiced its reaction to Brexit and if Scotland becomes independent of Britain, then Whales, who have resentfully felt exclusion for many years, may decide to follow. Breaking away from the union could greatly reduce the size of Britain in years to come.

Can a stand alone Britain continue to fight multinational tax evasion like the EU has? Would our cost of imports rise to unaffordable levels? Will British government suddenly sit up and fight for the working mans inequalities? Will inequality rise further? Would we turn our backs on climate change (something close to my heart and something the EU has vehemently fought for)? Would our voting rights remain as they are now? Would we lose more of our civil liberties? Our freedom of speech? Our working rights?. None of this is being debated by people like Farage and Johnson. All we get is the predicted honeymoon which is all based on nothing more than a guess and an excited frenzy of Brexit supporters.

I wouldn’t dispute that the EU is anti many of the things I stand for. Its anti democracy, anti working class and anti re-nationalization but it has brought us into the 20th century a rich and prosperous country; there’s absolutely no doubt the EU has afforded us a respectable place on the world map…So until the out MP’s can allow us to make informed decisions, all we can do is speculate what Brexit might look like.

I'm not sure I want to sit in a lone country run by neo-liberal thinkers like Cameron, Johnson or Farage and I'm sure you don't want to sit in a lone country run by left of the left Corbyn, but you may find yourself in that very place.



Nigel Farage stated CORRECTLY that the UK GROSS payment to our Brussels overlords is £20 BILLION POUNDS per YEAR - or £55 MILLION POUNDS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

After rebates and other 'returns', this figure is reduced to £12 BILLION POUNDS per year - or £33 MILLION POUNDS NET PAYMENT EACH AND EVERY DAY.


40 years of paying £55 million pounds each and every day - or the equivalent amount in past years.

But WHO REALLY BENEFITS from the rebates?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk This site gives the last released treasury report and where the rebates go.

Farage keeps giving out gross figures which is misleading. Why doesn't he just give out net figures and fully inform us of the deductions?

[Northern Monkey]

Is it possible that Nigel Farage will go down in the history books as a British Hero?

I understand that's hard for some people to believe right now.


8tT3FBdnufc

One of the greatest speeches of our time.

[Northern Monkey]

I think it only fair that I post some remain proposition.

Although I don't agree with him and think that he contradicts himself and assumes he has facts. I can't take away from Clegg the fact that he's a very good debater.


cDcR_6x7GgIHe is a pretty good speaker but without the charisma.

[arista]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6954783/SDP-founder-Lord-Owen-backs-Brexit-calling-EU-flawed-and-dysfunctional.html

Lord Owen wants Out of the EU


http://www.lorddavidowen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DavidOwenDec07.jpg

[DemolitionRed]

One of the greatest speeches of our time.

WHAT? What was great about it?

[kirklancaster]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk "This site gives the last released treasury report and where the rebates go.

Farage keeps giving out gross figures which is misleading. Why doesn't he just give out net figures and fully inform us of the deductions?"


I'll answer your good post a little at a time Red: The below is from 'Full Facts':

"During the LBC leader's debate UKIP leader Nigel Farage claimed the UK's membership fee of the EU is "£55 million a day" - the equivalent of about £20 billion in total per year.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg disputes the claims, saying "If you actually count the rebate, if you count what British farmers, for instance, receive from the Common Agricultural Policy, it is less than half that figure".

It's reasonable to describe £55 million as our "membership fee", but it ignores the fact that we get money back as well. In other words, £55 million a day represents the UK's 'gross contributions' to EU institutions. Our net contributions are the equivalent of £33 million per day on these terms.

Gross not net

UKIP have used the figure in the past as part of their reports analysing how much the EU costs Britain. From these, it's clear that the £55 million a day - the equivalent of about £20 billion a year - is only one part of what they see as the overall cost of the EU, factoring in the likes of regulation costs, lost jobs and the Common Agricultural Policy.

£20 billion is roughly what the UK government and households paid to EU institutions in 2012: these include payments to the central EU budget as well as customs duties and agricultural levies.

But the UK gets some of that money back, some through the rebate which reduces the UK's contributions to the EU Budget, and some through the Agricultural Guarantee Fund to farmers. That was worth as much as £8 billion in 2012.

So on balance, the UK's contributions to the EU amount to some £12 billion a year or about £33 million a day.

Thus, this independant article corroborates Farage's figures. Farage is a VERY TRUTHFUL, HONEST POLITICIAN.

https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

[bots]

i don't honestly think it comes down to arguments over money or immigration. It comes down to whether you want to be a part of Europe and be inclusive or not. The cost of that is largely irrelevant to me. If everything was just judged by its monetary value, the world would be a very poor place

[kirklancaster]

i don't honestly think it comes down to arguments over money or immigration. It comes down to whether you want to be a part of Europe and be inclusive or not. The cost of that is largely irrelevant to me. If everything was just judged by its monetary value, the world would be a very poor place

I think on a subject as complex as this it is best to respond in manageable sections.

'Being part of Europe' and not being in the EU are not mutually exclusive.

[Livia]

It's a good time for a referendum if you're in the "out" camp. Immigration is high and rising and that's going to be a big part of why people vote. It scares people... and we're being told continually told it's going to get worse. I think it's one of the reasons why a complete arsehole like Trump is being even considered in the US.

[joeysteele]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6954783/SDP-founder-Lord-Owen-backs-Brexit-calling-EU-flawed-and-dysfunctional.html

Lord Owen wants Out of the EU


http://www.lorddavidowen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DavidOwenDec07.jpg

This man in the history of politics has turned so many times, its a wonder he knows which way he is looking.

He was one of the originals who left the Labour party, slated Tony Benn and Foot for wanting to leave the EUand formed a whole new party,which was totally Europe friendly.
Now he wants to leave he says.

Many figures in political history from Churchill to even now,get my attention and I try to learn as much from their experiences as I can, however this waste of political space and Shirley Williams too can get lost for me.

It doesn't surprise me he now wants to leave if he feels the EU has become some sort of challenge, his attitude was always when something wasn't going his way all the time, he picked up his ball and ran off to play with someone else.

I read he was nicknamed Dr Death in the 80s, never has a name been so appropriately given to a politician,in my view.
I wouldn't give him or Shirley (I could win a seat but couldn't hold it) Williams, airtime myself.

[Livia]

Without Google

Can you name the head of the European Commission?
Can you name your own MEP?
Can you tell me how the rules are made or unmade?


Jean-Claude Juncker

Vicky Ford, David Campbell Bannerman and Henry Van Orden.

I could take a stab at an explanation but I'd need allllllllllllllllll afternoon and I would be making a lot of it up.

[joeysteele]

Without Google

Can you name the head of the European Commission?
Can you name your own MEP?
Can you tell me how the rules are made or unmade?

the Jean Claude Junker guy is head of the European Commission.
Yes I know my MEPs I have talked with 2 of them from different parties.

Your 3rd question is not so easy, often even I think they make them up as they go along but I can say that too about UK govts as to how they go about things they do too.

[kirklancaster]

A FEW TRUTHS:

Compare Britain's Economic performance with that of the EU. We are performing more in line with Germany and the US than the woeful and increasingly economically ailing Eurozone:

http://static6.uk.businessinsider.com/image/560d2c049dd7cc15008be713-620-460/baml%20note%20eu.jpg

DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

The UK has just 5.5% unemployment at the moment. Now compare this fact with the Employment Figures of the other Eurozone Countries:

http://static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/560d2eb2bd86ef19008be4f7-720-383/unemployment7.jpg

DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

Despite Germany - that Grand Architect of what has become the EU - bolstering the dismal manufacturing growth figures of the EU, it is impossible to manipulate them enough to make them appear anything but unhealthy and on a downward spiral since we entered in 1973.

As the chart below clearly shows:

http://static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/560d3e8f9dd7cc24008be5d3-884-576/change%20or%20go%201.jpg

DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

WE ALL BUT ABANDONDED OUR COMMONWEALTH COUSINS WHEN WE FELL FOR EDWARD HEATHS LIES AND JOINED THIS CORRUPT, WASTEFUL, AND INEFFICIENT BUREAUCRATIC NIGHTMARE, BUT LOOK AT HOW THAT SAME COMMONWEALTH IS OUTPERFORMING THE DISMAL EU. AND THAT IS WITHOUT 40 YEARS OF NET 'PAYMENTS' FROM US OF £33 MILLION PER DAY - EACH AND EVERY DAY.

OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT

[bots]

This man in the history of politics has turned so many times, its a wonder he knows which way he is looking.

He was one of the originals who left the Labour party, slated Tony Benn and Foot for wanting to leave the EUand formed a whole new party,which was totally Europe friendly.
Now he wants to leave he says.

Many figures in political history from Churchill to even now,get my attention and I try to learn as much from their experiences as I can, however this waste of political space and Shirley Williams too can get lost for me.

It doesn't surprise me he now wants to leave if he feels the EU has become some sort of challenge, his attitude was always when something wasn't going his way all the time, he picked up his ball and ran off to play with someone else.

I read he was nicknamed Dr Death in the 80s, never has a name been so appropriately given to a politician,in my view.
I wouldn't give him or Shirley (I could win a seat but couldn't hold it) Williams, airtime myself.

Spitting Image, what a wonderful program, sadly missed :laugh:

[Livia]

Great post Kirk... didn't want to quote it as it's so big... but a great post.

[bots]

I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them.

It provides stability. What price can we associate with that? How many unneeded wars will it stop?

Money really isn't the be all of everything, there are more fundamental principles at stake

[kirklancaster]

Great post Kirk... didn't want to quote it as it's so big... but a great post.

Thank you Liv. You KNOW just how much a Brexit means to me.

[joeysteele]

..what the graph shows is what we have done while still a full member of being in the EU not while out of it.
Just a thought.

[bots]

By exiting Europe to stop immigration, aren't we putting up a metaphorical wall. Something that the pope very recently branded unchristian? :hehe:

[bots]

Nobody's proposed that.

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=bitontheslide;8534992]"I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them."

The text which I have emboldened BOTS may be the IDEOLOGY of the EU, but the REALITY is far removed from that ideal.

Look no further than Greece.

The EU have NOT 'safeguarded' Greece in her times of trouble, only EXACERBATED her problems.

Lending money is NOT distributing collective wealth in order to 'safeguard' a member country - it is only INCREASING that poorer country's fiscal problems when it struggles to REPAY the loan.

What did the EU do then?

LEND GREECE MORE MONEY SO THAT IT COULD USE VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE NEW LOAN TO REPAY THE INSTALLMENT ON THE ORIGINAL LOAN.

The only beneficiaries of such financial loan-sharking are those who lend the money in the first place.

True 'safeguarding' by the EU of poorer countries who are in trouble, would have seen massive reallocation of some of its massive collective funds as GRANTS to help underpin such a country as Greece to see it through its troubles, but this is just a Europhile 'Pipe Dream' because the EU is NOT one UNITED EUROPE as it pretends to be, and there is NO one 'FISCAL BROTHERHOOD' with which to attend to such problematic countries needs - just greed and more greed.

As for; "Invading" countries; With a very conservative estimate of a TOTAL of over 102,000 migrants in 2015 to just TWO COUNTRIES and ignoring others - 54,660 in Italy and 46,150 in poor embattled Greece - a number in excess of those who landed in 2014 - I would say that most of Europe -- The UK included -- is ALREADY BEING INVADED.

[kirklancaster]

..what the graph shows is what we have done while still a full member of being in the EU not while out of it.
Just a thought.

As I will PROVE in later posts Joey - What that graph shows is WHAT THE UK HAS ACHIEVED DESPITE BEING IN THE CORRUPT, INEFFICIENT, WASTEFUL, UK MONEY DRAINING EU.

[kirklancaster]

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

Immigration is but ONE of Farage's 'arguments' - and that is CONTROLLING immigration NOT stopping it altogether.

[joeysteele]

As I will PROVE in later posts Joey - What that graph shows is WHAT THE UK HAS ACHIEVED DESPITE BEING IN THE CORRUPT, INEFFICIENT, WASTEFUL, UK MONEY DRAINING EU.

What any graph will not however prove is what 'might have been' or 'what might not have been' had we been out of the EU, which are the things we need to hear from the out campaign but with full substantiation of such claims too.

Whereas any graph showing what we have done these last years are substantiated with the fact they have been done and achieved while being a full member of the EU.
No 'mights' or 'might nots'.

If anything to me, your graph demonstrates how well we can do as a Nation within the EU.
You cannot really show any graphs that will show we can better,as good or even worse if we leave with any real guarantees as to same.
All that can be done is hope and supposition.

Whereas as in your graphs,the facts say we have done that while being a full member of the EU,so we know that with no suppositions.
The money draining argument is just an argument, you cannot prove more money could be wasted or even less by any UK govt out of the EU than is wasted now.

Without that proof, all we have is supposition that things will be alright, and if what you say was right, (and I disagree that it is in my opinion), that the UK has done that well despite being in the EU,then being in the EU has not hindered at all in the way you and the out people and UKIP in particular are trying to say it has.

We are actually then doing well as a member of the EU, to now expect us to take a leap off a cliff not knowing where we may land or what state we'd be in after by leaving the EU,is for me folly,when we can see exactly where we are and where we are going now as a full member of the EU.

[bots]

Immigration is but ONE of Farage's 'arguments' - and that is CONTROLLING immigration NOT stopping it altogether.

Trumps wall will have a door in it .... yet he is unchristian :fist:

[kirklancaster]

What any graph will not however prove is what 'might have been' or 'what might not have been' had we been out of the EU, which are the things we need to hear from the out campaign but with full substantiation of such claims too.

Whereas any graph showing what we have done these last years are substantiated with the fact they have been done and achieved while being a full member of the EU.
No 'mights' or 'might nots'.

If anything to me, your graph demonstrates how well we can do as a Nation within the EU.
You cannot really show any graphs that will show we can better,as good or even worse if we leave with any real guarantees as to same.
All that can be done is hope and supposition.

Whereas as in your graphs,the facts say we have done that while being a full member of the EU,so we know that with no suppositions.
The money draining argument is just an argument, you cannot prove more money could be wasted or even less by any UK govt out of the EU than is wasted now.

Without that proof, all we have is supposition that things will be alright, and if what you say was right, (and I disagree that it is in my opinion), that the UK has done that well despite being in the EU,then being in the EU has not hindered at all in the way you and the out people and UKIP in particular are trying to say it has.

We are actually then doing well as a member of the EU, to now expect us to take a leap off a cliff not knowing where we may land or what state we'd be in after by leaving the EU,is for me folly,when we can see exactly where we are and where we are going now as a full member of the EU.

If our economic recovery and stability is due to the fact that we are in the EU - then why is the EU itself so critically ailing economically?

I agree that NO ONE can 'prove' absolutely what might or might not have transpired had we NOT been a member of the EU, and when I wrote 'prove', I should have used the word 'show' or similar, but you of all people should recognise the value and validity of both 'A Preponderance Of The Evidence', and 'The Balance of Probabilities' - both of which I hope that my intended posts will contain.

I WILL answer your concerns about "leaping off a cliff not knowing where we may land or what state we'd be in after by leaving the EU" but as you can appreciate this very convoluted and complex subject demands comprehensive and factual posts, and these take time.

[Northern Monkey]

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.
Wrong.It is to control our own immigration policy and get the people we need rather than leaving the door wide open.Nobody wants to stop immigration.

[kirklancaster]

Trumps wall will have a door in it .... yet he is unchristian :fist:

:laugh: Poor Leathertrumpet. :hee:

[DemolitionRed]

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

We won't see migrants change from outside Europe, why would we? but we will possibly see an exodus or perhaps a lack of people coming to live and work here from other European countries. Britain doesn't produce enough construction workers and so if we can't get more permanent construction workers from within Europe, we will have to get them in from further afield.

[Northern Monkey]

We won't see migrants change from outside Europe, why would we? but we will possibly see an exodus or perhaps a lack of people coming to live and work here from other European countries. Britain doesn't produce enough construction workers and so if we can't get more permanent construction workers from within Europe, we will have to get them in from further afield.
No we'd just let in as many as we need.Poles are queueing up to come here aswell as people from many EU countries.

[joeysteele]

I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them.

It provides stability. What price can we associate with that? How many unneeded wars will it stop?

Money really isn't the be all of everything, there are more fundamental principles at stake

Very strong points.

[waterhog]

Very strong points.

I am with Jamie foreman aka derek - outtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt sort out this country and get our ship in order.:cheer2:

[DemolitionRed]

25 February 2016
"The Remain campaign is threatening that the EU will cut funding to UK charities if we vote to leave the EU – but what sort of organisation punishes charities for political reasons?" asked Leave.EU co-chairman Richard Tice.

"One which is only interested in buying support, not helping people, and that's nothing for the Remain campaign to crow about.

"Besides, as net contributors to the EU budget, this funding all comes from UK taxpayers, really. They're trying to bribe us with our own money."

Between 2014-2020 the EU was/is giving back £80 billion on a 'raise to match' basis to charities across the UK. In 2014 medical research was awarded €947 million; that's more than any other country in Europe.

The question should be, will a 'go it alone government' continue to subsidize charities with £billions?

Why would a union that we are no longer in, continue to give money to our charities?

[DemolitionRed]

No we'd just let in as many as we need.Poles are queueing up to come here aswell as people from many EU countries.

At the moment they are but then we don't have any border restrictions to EU migrants at the moment. On average, migrant workers will stay here between four and nine years and not just for the summer fruit picking season. Why would they bother if they have to jump through hoops to live and work here? Why not just go to France, Spain or Germany where there are no borders?

[kirklancaster]

Very strong points.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????
HOW are they 'very strong points'?

What about the points in my response?

[QUOTE=bitontheslide;8534992]"I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them."

The text which I have emboldened BOTS may be the IDEOLOGY of the EU, but the REALITY is far removed from that ideal.

Look no further than Greece.

The EU have NOT 'safeguarded' Greece in her times of trouble, only EXACERBATED her problems.

Lending money is NOT distributing collective wealth in order to 'safeguard' a member country - it is only INCREASING that poorer country's fiscal problems when it struggles to REPAY the loan.

What did the EU do then?

LEND GREECE MORE MONEY SO THAT IT COULD USE VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE NEW LOAN TO REPAY THE INSTALLMENT ON THE ORIGINAL LOAN.

The only beneficiaries of such financial loan-sharking are those who lend the money in the first place.

True 'safeguarding' by the EU of poorer countries who are in trouble, would have seen massive reallocation of some of its massive collective funds as GRANTS to help underpin such a country as Greece to see it through its troubles, but this is just a Europhile 'Pipe Dream' because the EU is NOT one UNITED EUROPE as it pretends to be, and there is NO one 'FISCAL BROTHERHOOD' with which to attend to such problematic countries needs - just greed and more greed.

As for; "Invading" countries; With a very conservative estimate of a TOTAL of over 102,000 migrants in 2015 to just TWO COUNTRIES and ignoring others - 54,660 in Italy and 46,150 in poor embattled Greece - a number in excess of those who landed in 2014 - I would say that most of Europe -- The UK included -- is ALREADY BEING INVADED.
.................................................. ..........

Are we now playing the usual game of ignoring FACTUAL posts which do not 'sit' with our own opinions? Some 'debate'.

BOTS has NO strong points at all in the post you praise - It is all just more uncorroborated spiel.

[kirklancaster]

At the moment they are but then we don't have any border restrictions to EU migrants at the moment. On average, migrant workers will stay here between four and nine years and not just for the summer fruit picking season. Why would they bother if they have to jump through hoops to live and work here? Why not just go to France, Spain or Germany where there are no borders?

Then why not just let them DO that? :shrug:

We survived and built up a thriving Nation BEFORE the EU and BEFORE mass influxes of Easter Europeans.

Do not believe the scaremongering from Corporations and others who have vested interests in remaining in the EU.

[bots]

Then why not just let them DO that? :shrug:

We survived and built up a thriving Nation BEFORE the EU and BEFORE mass influxes of Easter Europeans.

Do not believe the scaremongering from Corporations and others who have vested interests in remaining in the EU.

We always have needed immigrants to add to the economy in times of growth though, and they will no longer come as they will have been pronounced unwelcome, why should they

[kirklancaster]

We always have needed immigrants to add to the economy in times of growth though, and they will no longer come as they will have been pronounced unwelcome, why should they

Are these the same immigrants who tear down wire fences and attack the police and lorry drivers in France to get to the UK when they are not welcome because they are illegal?

As Paul says, there will be plenty of immigrant workers allowed into the UK if we exit the EU - only they will be skilled, security vetted ones who are here LEGALLY.

[bots]

Are these the same immigrants who tear down wire fences and attack the police and lorry drivers in France to get to the UK when they are not welcome because they are illegal?

As Paul says, there will be plenty of immigrant workers allowed into the UK if we exit the EU - only they will be skilled, security vetted ones who are here LEGALLY.

This is a complete red herring though. you are referring to ILLEGAL immigrants. They will not say .... fair cop, the UK is no longer in the EU so we will stop trying to go there :laugh: We will still have the same levels of illegal immigration in or out of the EU

[MTVN]

I remember you saying. Its really worth attending such debates if you can because you get a lot more out of them than anything you can read online.

Is this a load of hype or an important part of future history we are living through?

It's definitely quite historic imo. Cameron's negotiation in itself was quite historic I think because it was the first time that any country has sought to reverse the trend of 'ever closer union' that the EU has been heading towards for years. People dismiss Cameron's deal but a lot of other countries see it as a massive challenge to the fundamental aims and principles of the EU.

[bots]

It's definitely quite historic imo. Cameron's negotiation in itself was quite historic I think because it was the first time that any country has sought to reverse the trend of 'ever closer union' that the EU has been heading towards for years. People dismiss Cameron's deal but a lot of other countries see it as a massive challenge to the fundamental aims and principles of the EU.

Its a huge change, the UK can now say ... nope, we are not going to implement that law or take any notice of it if it comes from Europe. We can now, legally, suit ourselves

[DemolitionRed]

Then why not just let them DO that? :shrug:

We survived and built up a thriving Nation BEFORE the EU and BEFORE mass influxes of Easter Europeans.

Do not believe the scaremongering from Corporations and others who have vested interests in remaining in the EU.

I don't listen to scaremongering Kirk. If I did, I'd believe those who told me all the migrants are coming here to claim benefits and tax credits.

I have an uncle who runs a flower farm just outside Kings Lynn. He totally relies on migrant workers and has said that without them he's just going to have to try and sell off his land and take early retirement. He'd be happy to employ British labourers but he just can't find enough of them. He says, the one thing about migrant workers is they reliably turn up, work hard and are happy to work for a minimum wage, which it has to remain if he's going to make any margin at all. Try telling him he's going to be okay because all those English people will be clamouring for the jobs and he'd suggest putting your telephone number in his employment add and have you sit back and wait for the lack of phone calls from British people.

Oh and he often tells them that they can claim tax credit because most of them are totally unaware. What a traitor eh :joker:

[joeysteele]

It's definitely quite historic imo. Cameron's negotiation in itself was quite historic I think because it was the first time that any country has sought to reverse the trend of 'ever closer union' that the EU has been heading towards for years. People dismiss Cameron's deal but a lot of other countries see it as a massive challenge to the fundamental aims and principles of the EU.


Absolutely.
I really believe, being fair to him, that David Cameron has not only got the best deal possible at this time but he has begun a process that will in fact change the EU for the better in the future.

There are many things I think history will end up hammering David Cameron for but on this, I really believe history could record that he was in fact one the best leaders ever to have taken the EU on and won real change over time.

[DemolitionRed]

The EU have NOT 'safeguarded' Greece in her times of trouble, only EXACERBATED her problems. [/B]



Oops I missed this bit earlier. Good point Kirk.

The EU treated Greece appallingly and its questionable whether that country can ever recover its economy. Its clear that Germany and the rest of us learnt nothing from the treaty of Versailles and that's come at a great cost to the Greek people.

Yes, that should certainly be a lesson to us all

[DemolitionRed]

I've tried to edit that twice but I'm stuck!!

[Kizzy]

Former Conservative leader picks his side.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12173888/Michael-Howard-David-Camerons-reform-bid-has-failed-its-time-to-go.html

Looking at that I'd say the new junior drs contracts contravene EU working hours directives, is this preemptive?

“Can we carry on with an organisation that has a multi-billion pound budget but not enough focus on controlling spending and shutting down programmes that haven’t worked?" - David Cameron in his January 2013 Bloomberg speech

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/it-management/hm-treasury-admits-potential-663m-of-universal-credit-it-cost-write-off-3590699/

[kirklancaster]

STRIPPING AWAY THE EUROPHILE B.S. AND LIES #1

"THREE MILLION JOBS WILL BE LOST IF WE EXIT THE EU"

EU supporters have repeatedly claimed that if we were to exit the EU, at least 3 million jobs would be lost in the UK, but this is yet more DISHONESTY.

The false claim hails from a 1999 report from the National Institute of
Economic and Social Research which determined that 'Three million British people are INVOLVED with exporting products to the EU'.

These jobs depend upon continuation of trade with the EU - NOT on continuation of our EU membership.

This lie has been constantly repeated in their scaremongering propaganda by Europhiles DESPITE the National Institute of Economic and Social Research Director, Martin Weale, repudiating their claim and describing it as ‘pure Goebbels’.

So those 'three million jobs' depend on TRADE not on EU MEMBERSHIP. But would that trade still continue if we left the EU?

YOU CAN BET YOUR LIFE ON IT. And here's why:

1) The UK would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.

2) We buy a lot more from the EU than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over £50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly £100 billion. Does anyone REALLY think that the economically ailing EU would stop trading with the UK if we left, and deprive itself of almost £1 billion pounds per week positive trading income?

3) The Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU, so even if we exit, the EU will have NO CHOICE than to continue trading with us.

4) The World Trade Organization (WTO) has rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are OBLIGED to abide. These alone would GUARANTEE the continuation of the trade upon which most of those 3 million jobs rely.

DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?



DO NOT FALL FOR THE LIES AND PROPAGANDA OF THE HUGE CORPORATIONS AND ULTRA WEALTHY LANDOWNING ELITE WHO ARE THE ONLY REAL BENEFICIARIES OF REMAING IN THE EU


OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[Kizzy]

Is that copy and pasted from somewhere? You can adjust the colours and font size, it just looks like your shouting things.

[bots]

Former Conservative leader picks his side.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12173888/Michael-Howard-David-Camerons-reform-bid-has-failed-its-time-to-go.html

Never liked Mr Howard :laugh:

[arista]

Young lady in Question time audience gave passionate argument to panel.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/647661/Politicians-stunned-as-anti-EU-young-girl-makes-passionate-Brexit-case-on-Question-Time

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/Girl-stuns-QT-647661.jpg


Yes good on her

[bots]

I just couldn't get passionate about a EU in/out debate, its just not worth the effort

[arista]

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/secondary/QT-475408.jpg
"She added that Britain needs to impose a points based system"

[Northern Monkey]

At the moment they are but then we don't have any border restrictions to EU migrants at the moment. On average, migrant workers will stay here between four and nine years and not just for the summer fruit picking season. Why would they bother if they have to jump through hoops to live and work here? Why not just go to France, Spain or Germany where there are no borders?£9.00 an hour living wage.That is a fortune to a Pole.They all wanna come here.Filling out a few applications won't stop that.

[kirklancaster]

Is that copy and pasted from somewhere? You can adjust the colours and font size, it just looks like your shouting things.

No - This is not copy and pasted but it is based on genuine facts from two or three sources.

The colours and font size are as I made them because I AM shouting.

I have never felt as passionate about any issue in my life as I do our membership of this corrupt, wasteful, inefficient shambles which is the so-called European Union, and I feel the NEED to shout to try to bring attention to the absolute folly of this country remaining in, and to perhaps persuade the 'undecided' members on here to do the sensible thing and vote 'OUT'. Though looking at the poll, I feel members are set in their ways and no amount of facts will persuade them to change their minds.

I will continue to post the truth and facts though regardless.

[kirklancaster]

Southampton dole queue set for an increase.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10020273.Ford_s___80m_EU_loan_to_boost_Turkey_fact ory___and_close_ours/

Huge amounts of money in manilla envelopes must be changing hands under the proverbial counter to those Government and EU Ministers responsible for this appalling development, and if ever ANYONE questioned just why the Tories took us into the Common Market, and why Tory Poster Boy Blair and others have kept us in, and why Cameron and the ruling elite are now still trying to keep us in, when it has been a 42 year unmitigated disaster for this country, then they should follow your link, read the article and weep.

The whole crooked caboodle of them are fecking the working class of this country and laughing in our faces.

[Kizzy]

You don't need to shout at me, we all have passionate views there's no need to maximise your posts we have a good few months to weigh up the pros and cons.

[joeysteele]

No - This is not copy and pasted but it is based on genuine facts from two or three sources.

The colours and font size are as I made them because I AM shouting.

I have never felt as passionate about any issue in my life as I do our membership of this corrupt, wasteful, inefficient shambles which is the so-called European Union, and I feel the NEED to shout to try to bring attention to the absolute folly of this country remaining in, and to perhaps persuade the 'undecided' members on here to do the sensible thing and vote 'OUT'. Though looking at the poll, I feel members are set in their ways and no amount of facts will persuade them to change their minds.

I will continue to post the truth and facts though regardless.



I totally admire and respect that view and in way share the passion except mine is for the other way and the need to stay in.

You can of course keep presenting only the bad things as to the EU and ignore any good there is too, and that is the right of all who wish to come out.

However that brings me to the point I keep making,even those who wish to stay in and whose minds are made up,admit there are wrongs and problems and bad things as to the EU.
We know for sure there are many good things too however.
Without even maybe having a great deal of info, I and feel sure they likely are aware of that and have accepted same.

What the out camp has to do is substantiate how improved and better the UK will be as to security,economically, socially and indeed as to all issues of measuring a Nations success.
Always just getting the negatives from the out camp,gives no lead or confidence as to what the UK will be like out of the EU.

We who want to stay in, know there are negatives,we know we want to see them changed too from within the EU not out of the EU.
What has to be proven as far as is possible is what the status and success and future of the UK will be really like and assured.
In the absence of any of those assurances and guarantees,people have no clue if they would be moving into an even greater list of negatives for the UK in the future if they vote to leave the EU.

In my work, if I was offered another position, I would have see the guarantees of success, future and conditions,if they were lacking then have no idea of the real guaranteed positives ad negatives,so despite any negatives in my present position, I would not risk my future by leaving the position I am now in to walk into one, I have no guarantees for as to the future.

I think the UK may be able to do well out of the EU but I don't know with any real confidence,I do know the UK has done well in the EU as even your graphs keep demonstrating time after time,so for me,with the guarantees there already is as to our future in the EU and the big lack of really any once we leave, that is why my passion is for the 'in' side.

[kirklancaster]

You don't need to shout at me, we all have passionate views there's no need to maximise your posts we have a good few months to weigh up the pros and cons.

No one is specifically shouting at YOU - and I will present my posts as I see fit thank you very much.

[kirklancaster]

I totally admire and respect that view and in way share the passion except mine is for the other way and the need to stay in.

You can of course keep presenting only the bad things as to the EU and ignore any good there is too, and that is the right of all who wish to come out.

However that brings me to the point I keep making,even those who wish to stay in and whose minds are made up,admit there are wrongs and problems and bad things as to the EU.
We know for sure there are many good things too however.
Without even maybe having a great deal of info, I and feel sure they likely are aware of that and have accepted same.

What the out camp has to do is substantiate how improved and better the UK will be as to security,economically, socially and indeed as to all issues of measuring a Nations success.
Always just getting the negatives from the out camp,gives no lead or confidence as to what the UK will be like out of the EU.

We who want to stay in, know there are negatives,we know we want to see them changed too from within the EU not out of the EU.
What has to be proven as far as is possible is what the status and success and future of the UK will be really like and assured.
In the absence of any of those assurances and guarantees,people have no clue if they would be moving into an even greater list of negatives for the UK in the future if they vote to leave the EU.

In my work, if I was offered another position, I would have see the guarantees of success, future and conditions,if they were lacking then have no idea of the real guaranteed positives ad negatives,so despite any negatives in my present position, I would not risk my future by leaving the position I am now in to walk into one, I have no guarantees for as to the future.

I think the UK may be able to do well out of the EU but I don't know with any real confidence,I do know the UK has done well in the EU as even your graphs keep demonstrating time after time,so for me,with the guarantees there already is as to our future in the EU and the big lack of really any once we leave, that is why my passion is for the 'in' side.

I always respect you and your passion and integrity Joey - honestly I do - and I do also like you, because no matter what the subject is, and irrespective of the fact that we are sometimes (not ALWAYS) on opposite sides of a debate, YOU DO ALWAYS DEBATE and respond -- something which I try to do myself.

I WILL post just why the UK can not only survive outside of the EU, but how it will actually prosper. My work at the moment though, keeps getting in the way and taking up much of my time. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

No one is specifically shouting at YOU - and I will present my posts as I see fit thank you very much.

I am in the in camp you were addressing., fine do what you like not saying you can't it just seems counterproductive. Nobody likes being shouted at it's not debating either posting your views in giant red letters.

[DemolitionRed]

I think the UK may be able to do well out of the EU but I don't know with any real confidence,I do know the UK has done well in the EU as even your graphs keep demonstrating time after time,so for me,with the guarantees there already is as to our future in the EU and the big lack of really any once we leave, that is why my passion is for the 'in' side.

Realistically I believe the majority will think this way. I'd be amazed if we came out of the EU because its like jumping into the abyss wearing a blindfold.

[kirklancaster]

Realistically I believe the majority will think this way. I'd be amazed if we came out of the EU because its like jumping into the abyss wearing a blindfold.

Would you mind explaining just what you mean by this? It is the easiest thing in the world to make claims such as this, but could you just list your reasons for making such a claim?

[kirklancaster]

I am in the in camp you were addressing., fine do what you like not saying you can't it just seems counterproductive. Nobody likes being shouted at it's not debating either posting your views in giant red letters.

I find it unsurprising that no one else on here objected to the large text size and colour of my post which you object to, and I really do not need your patronising advice on what constitutes a debate.

I think that any scrutiny of any thread - this included - will prove just WHO out of the two of us attempts the hardest to actually debate, and which one merely criticises or posts links or pastes copy.

[Northern Monkey]

Tbh even though i am a firm outer i think DR is right about what the end result will be.Not because i agree with jumping into the abyss part but because i believe people will fall for Camerons "leap in the dark" scare tactics.

[Kizzy]

I find it unsurprising that no one else on here objected to the large text size and colour of my post which you object to, and I really do not need your patronising advice on what constitutes a debate.

I think that any scrutiny of any thread - this included - will prove just WHO out of the two of us attempts the hardest to actually debate, and which one merely criticises or posts links or pastes copy.

I have never cared what others do or don't do. You brought up debating styles with Joey so I feel that it's justified to query yours.
This thread or indeed forum is not a competition for members to compare posts, you may feel your opinions should be seen above all others on the page, I don't.
Hence the criticism of your formatting not your view.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/26/21/3198183A00000578-3465928-image-a-16_1456520923404.jpg

[Revealed: The Brexit-backing
16-year-old grammar school girl
whose passionate demand for border controls
left the politicians on BBC Question Time
speechless... but she's too young to vote ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3465928/Young-woman-demanding-Brexit-win-control-border-silences-politicians-fierce-defence-points-based-immigration-system.html#ixzz41MnmKqXk


Bless her

[bots]

Tbh even though i am a firm outer i think DR is right about what the end result will be.Not because i agree with jumping into the abyss part but because i believe people will fall for Camerons "leap in the dark" scare tactics.

I don't see it as a leap into the dark, and I am marginally in the stay in camp. We come across new economic challenges every year that are a leap in the dark whether we are in or out of europe. Life isn't predictable. Having lived through a period when we weren't in Europe already, I just think its scare mongering.

I've yet to hear a truly valid argument for or against since the campaign began a week ago :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

I have never cared what others do or don't do. You brought up debating styles with Joey so I feel that it's justified to query yours.
This thread or indeed forum is not a competition for members to compare posts, you may feel your opinions should be seen above all others on the page, I don't.
Hence the criticism of your formatting not your view.

Why don't you just stop baiting me? I have suffered enough on here through your following my posts and making comments which have nothing to do with the subject matter in an attempt to bait me into responding so you can then get me into trouble.

I don't give a flying feck for what you feel 'justified' about, or your opinion about my legitimate use of font sizes or colours and you do not have to resort to implying that I am making this any type of competition to compare posts just because you have no valid answer to my rebuttal of your unwanted and unnecessary and irelevant comments.

You are the one who resorts to cheap shot imagery in your posts - such as posting images of the Virgin Mary as piss-taking baiting to members who are earnestly debating religious topics, and as for 'criticisms of' my 'formatting' - that is not your place, stick to discussing the subject at hand.

If you have anything remotely valid to post that is.

Our membership of the EU is - to me - the most serious issue facing the UK in our lifetime, and I make no apologies for doing everything I can to try to draw attention to the facts, get people who may otherwise be disinterested, interested, and for trying to make people think.

If you want to concern yourself with trivialities instead of debating then do so, but do not pick on me when I have done nothing to you.

LEAVE ME FECKING ALONE and concentrate PURELY on my contributions to the debates.

[kirklancaster]

The left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda - by Owen Jones

Progressives should be appalled by European Union’s ruination of Greece. It’s time to reclaim the Eurosceptic cause

‘An anti-EU campaign could help the left reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.’

At first, only a few dipped their toes in the water; then others, hesitantly, followed their lead, all the time looking at each other for reassurance. As austerity-ravaged Greece was placed under what Yanis Varoufakis terms a “postmodern occupation”, its sovereignty overturned and compelled to implement more of the policies that have achieved nothing but economic ruin, Britain’s left is turning against the European Union, and fast.

“Everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage,” writes George Monbiot, explaining his about-turn. “All my life I’ve been pro-Europe,” says Caitlin Moran, “but seeing how Germany is treating Greece, I am finding it increasingly distasteful.” Nick Cohen believes the EU is being portrayed “with some truth, as a cruel, fanatical and stupid institution”. “How can the left support what is being done?” asks Suzanne Moore. “The European ‘Union’. Not in my name.” There are senior Labour figures in Westminster and Holyrood privately moving to an “out” position too.

Should the left leave the EU? | Owen Jones talks...
The list goes on, and it is growing. The more leftwing opponents of the EU come out, the more momentum will gather pace and gain critical mass. For those of us on the left who have always been critical of the EU, it has felt like a lonely crusade. But left support for withdrawal – “Lexit”, if you like – is not new. If anything, this new wave of left Euroscepticism represents a reawakening. Much of the left campaigned against entering the European Economic Community when Margaret Thatcher and the like campaigned for membership.

It was German and French banks who benefited from the bailouts, not the Greek economy.

It would threaten the ability of leftwing governments to implement policies, people like my parents thought, and would forbid the sort of industrial activism needed to protect domestic industries. But then Thatcherism happened, and an increasingly battered and demoralised left began to believe that the only hope of progressive legislation was via Brussels. The misery of the left was, in the 1980s, matched by the triumphalism of the free marketeers, who had transformed Britain beyond many of their wildest ambitions, and began to balk at the restraints put on their dreams by the European project.

The left’s pessimism about the possibility of implementing social reform at home without the help of the EU fused with a progressive vision of internationalism and unity, one that had emerged from the rubble of fascism and genocidal war. It is perhaps this feelgood halo that has been extinguished by a country the EU has driven into an economic collapse unseen since America’s great depression. It was German and French banks who recklessly lent to Greece that have benefited from bailouts, not the Greek economy. The destruction of Greece’s national sovereignty was achieved by economic strangulation, and treatment dealt out to Alexis Tsipras likened to “extensive mental waterboarding”. Slovakia’s deputy prime minister, Peter Kažimír, may have deleted his tweet calling this modern-day Versailles “the results of their ‘Greek Spring’”, but he is right: this was all about crushing a rebellion.

Ugly indeed. As the former European commission adviser Philippe Legrain puts it, “Germany is proving to be a calamitous hegemon,” overruling even France’s objections.

The euro suits Germany, of course, as a weak euro is good for its exports and prevents poorer EU countries getting a competitive edge. But look at how the EU has operated. It has driven elected governments – however unsavoury, like Silvio Berlusconi’s – from office. Ireland and Portugal were also blackmailed. The 2011 treaty effectively banned Keynesian economics in the eurozone.

Hostility to the EU is seen as the preserve of the hard right, and not the sort of thing progressives should entertain, but even outside the eurozone, our democracy is threatened. The Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership (TTIP), typically negotiated by the EU in secret with corporate interests, threatens a race to the-bottom in environmental and other standards. Even more ominously, it would give large corporations the ability to sue elected governments to try to stop them introducing policies that supposedly hit their profit margins, whatever their democratic mandate. It would clear the way to not only expand the privatisation of our NHS, but make it irreversible too. Royal Mail may have been privatised by the Tories, but it was the EU that began the process by enforcing the liberalisation of the natural monopoly of postal services. Want to nationalise the railways? That means you have to not only overcome European commission rail directive 91/440/EEC, but potentially the proposed Fourth Railway Package too.

Other treaties and directives enforce free market policies based on privatisation and marketisation of our public services and utilities. David Cameron is now proposing a renegotiation that will strip away many of the remaining “good bits” of the EU, particularly opting out of employment protection rules. Yet he depends on the left to campaign for and support his new package, which will be to stay in an increasingly pro-corporate EU shorn of pro-worker trappings. Can we honestly endorse that?

Greece is the latest battleground in the financial elite’s war on democracy

Let’s just be honest about our fears. We fear that we will inadvertently line up with the xenophobes and the immigrant-bashing nationalists, and a “no” result will be seen as their vindication, unleashing a carnival of Ukippery. Hostility to the EU is seen as the preserve of the hard right, and not the sort of thing progressives should entertain. And that is why – if indeed much of the left decides on Lexit – it must run its own separate campaign and try and win ownership of the issue.

Such a campaign would focus on building a new Britain, one of workers’ rights, a genuine living wage, public ownership, industrial activism and tax justice. Such a populist campaign could help the left reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago. My fear otherwise is a repetition of the Scottish referendum: but this time, instead of the progressive SNP as the beneficiaries, with Ukip mopping up in working-class communities as big businesses issue chilling threats about the risks of voting the wrong way. Without a prominent Left Out campaign, Ukip could displace Labour right across northern England. That would be the real vindication of Ukippery.

British progressives and the European Union: should we stay or should we go?

No progressive can support EU membership after the Greek debacle

Lexit may be seen as a betrayal of solidarity with the left in the EU: Syriza and Podemos in Spain are trying to change the institution, after all, not leave it. Syriza’s experience illustrates just how forlorn that cause is. But in any case, the threat of Brexit would help them. Germany has little incentive to change tack: it benefits enormously from the current arrangements. If its behaviour is seen to be causing the break-up of the EU, it will strengthen the hand of those opposing the status quo. The case for Lexit grows ever stronger, and – at the very least – more of us need to start dipping our toes in the water.

EVEN OWEN JONES AND THE TRUE LEFT WING IN THE UK SAY; OUT. OUT.OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[bots]

IN IN IN IN IN
:joker:

think its going to get pretty tiresome if we start all these font parties

[Northern Monkey]

Good old Owen Jones.I always said he wa a good lad.:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

STRIPPING AWAY THE EUROPHILE B.S. AND LIES #2

"ALMOST HALF OF ALL OUR EXPORTS GO TO EU BLOC COUNTRIES"

More dishonesty which even our Europhile Government and its various departments are complicit in. They would be though, wouldn't they, because they consist of the ultra wealthy landowning, property holding and corporate shareholding elite who are the REAL beneficiaries of our membership of the money-draining, inefficient and corrupt EU.

FALSE EXPORT FIGURES TO THE EU VIA THE 'ROTTERDAM EFFECT'.

When our export figures are compliled they are subject to a little known piece of EU friendly dishonesty called the 'ROTTERDAM EFFECT' which vastly inflates the real figures to make it appear that MORE products are being bought by EU Countries than they really are.

This little know blatant dishonesty has been implemented from day 1. and works like this:

No matter where in the world we export our products to, if the ships carrying that cargo docks in ROTTERDAM or ANTWERP - even for a few hours - then that export is falsely attributed as being "exported to the EU", even products which we export to non-EU countries.

This dishonest gerrymandering is referred to as ‘The Rotterdam Effect’ because of the importance of Rotterdam (and Antwerp) as a transit port.”

When pressed, the corrupt Europhile UK Government and other Europhiles will admit this occurs but will mitigate the effect or downplay the impact of this practice on the TRUE UK figures concerning exports to the EU.

Even the Office of National Statistics will admit to the 'Rotterdam Effect' being a reality, but will not own up to just how much this corrupt procedure 'distorts' our export figures to the EU in their favour, saying that "We have not got the figures".

Even the most blatant of Europhile 'Elitists' who have a vested financially lucrative interest (lining their OWN pockets) from our membership of the EU, admit that the 'OFFICIAL' quoted UK to EU exports figures of between "47 to 52% in recent years" are BELOW 40% when the Rotterdam Effect is discounted, but the REAL figure is more realistically BELOW 30%.

That means that THE HUGE MAJORITY OF UK PRODUCTS WHICH WE EXPORT ARE BEING BOUGHT BY NON-EU COUNTRIES.

STOP BEING CONNED BY THE SUPER RICH CORPORATIONS, LANDOWNERS AND WEALTHY ELITE

VOTE OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[Kizzy]

Frances O’Grady, general secretary of the biggest UK trade union body the TUC, has warned that workers’ rights are being forgotten in the debate over whether the UK should stay in the EU.

“It is citizens who get votes, not businesses. There is a danger that this debate is becoming so dominated by the business voice that we’re forgetting about what matters to ordinary voters,

Who cares about business?... Business will take care of business always has always will.
Think about yourselves. Think of the 'big society' communities.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-tucs-frances-o-grady-warns-that-workers-rights-are-being-forgotten-in-brexit-debate-a6897801.html

[Kizzy]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/26/21/3198183A00000578-3465928-image-a-16_1456520923404.jpg

[Revealed: The Brexit-backing
16-year-old grammar school girl
whose passionate demand for border controls
left the politicians on BBC Question Time
speechless... but she's too young to vote ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3465928/Young-woman-demanding-Brexit-win-control-border-silences-politicians-fierce-defence-points-based-immigration-system.html#ixzz41MnmKqXk


Bless her

And bless these who didn't make QT

A poll of schoolchildren has found overwhelming support for Britain to remain in the EU.

More than 1,000 children took part in the online poll, published by First News, the UK’s children’s newspaper, with 74% voting to stay in the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfTC2o05OEw

[Kizzy]

Wait until the get out in the real World, that figure will massively change.

This is exactly why children don't vote.

OK for the little coached adolescent to spout off on QT though? They must all get a say... or none. One sided debates are not democratic are they?

[smudgie]

I really dont care if a 16 year old wants In or Out.
I am just so pleased that at 16 they are interested in something so important to their future.
I love that the younger generation are more interested in politics than they were back in my youth.

[bots]

Doesn't it just show how crap the debate is when it takes a school kid to inject any enthusiasm into it :shrug:

[smudgie]

Doesn't it just show how crap the debate is when it takes a school kid to inject any enthusiasm into it :shrug:

I don't know if it's lack of enthusiasm for the most, more like a slow burner for me.
So much dross to wade through on both sides, I suppose it will come down to who you believe going by their personality with the politician or better still how believable the 'real' people come across.:shrug:
Early days yet BOTS.

[Kizzy]

'I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x

[DemolitionRed]

Would you mind explaining just what you mean by this? It is the easiest thing in the world to make claims such as this, but could you just list your reasons for making such a claim?

I've been very vocal with my opinion and the research I've personally done and so I don't think its just some random fly away comment.

If all the things you highlight were certainties, then I would possibly sign the 'out' vote but they aren't certainties, they are hopes, possibilities and even likelihoods and therefore an alternative could just as likely happen.

But coming out of the EU isn't just about rights of foreigners or rights of trade. I'm hugely concerned about our rights of liberty/human rights. I really don't want to live in a land that has no anchor on "the all seeing EYE". I don't trust a neoliberal government that has this urge to tamper with the magna carta on its route to rule Britannia.

This is merely a debate. I'm a voice amongst voices and its unlikely anyone at all will take much notice of me. I'm not here to campaign and if I speak to someone who wishes to sway my view, then they have to answer all of my questions, of which I have many.

[Alf]

If all the things you highlight were certainties, then I would possibly sign the 'out' vote but they aren't certainties, they are hopes, possibilities and even likelihoods and therefore an alternative could just as likely happen.

We know for certain that the EU is a failing, undemocratic disaster. Is that not a reason for change?

Hope is better than no hope.

[Kizzy]

We know for certain that the EU is a failing, undemocratic disaster. Is that not a reason for change?

Hang on there appears to be a distinct 'ooh look over there, something funny is going on'!
Have you noticed we are reducing our MPs from 650 to 600, is this gerrymandering not undemocratic?
The news today is the accidental disclosure of information caused the foreign secretary to attack an MP as a 'sh*t'.
This proves we know what they want us to know and no more.

What is important to you personally, is it your pay packet?
Then my advice would be in.

'Workers’ rights are under threat if Britain leaves the European Union, Labour’s shadow Business Secretary has said.

Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.

Ms Eagle warned that many Conservatives who wanted to leave the bloc wanted to scrap the rights and said Labour voters would be key to the Remain vote.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-workers-rights-paid-holiday-brexit-labour-angela-eagle-a6901146.html

In in in in in in in in in in in in

[Alf]

OK for the little coached adolescent to spout off on QT though? They must all get a say... or none. One sided debates are not democratic are they?The difference being that this girl actually made a point which the politicians on the panel had no answer too. The more than 1,000 schoolchildren you are talking about just took part in an online poll to say in or out without any explanation.

[kirklancaster]

I've been very vocal with my opinion and the research I've personally done and so I don't think its just some random fly away comment.

If all the things you highlight were certainties, then I would possibly sign the 'out' vote but they aren't certainties, they are hopes, possibilities and even likelihoods and therefore an alternative could just as likely happen.

But coming out of the EU isn't just about rights of foreigners or rights of trade. I'm hugely concerned about our rights of liberty/human rights. I really don't want to live in a land that has no anchor on "the all seeing EYE". I don't trust a neoliberal government that has this urge to tamper with the magna carta on its route to rule Britannia.

This is merely a debate. I'm a voice amongst voices and its unlikely anyone at all will take much notice of me. I'm not here to campaign and if I speak to someone who wishes to sway my view, then they have to answer all of my questions, of which I have many.

Do I detect agression in this response Red? My questions were perfectly legitimate and were posed by me because I am genuinely puzzled by what you mean - not as any kind of attack on you personally.

I have not even mentioned immigration or the rights of 'Foreigners' - yet - so I do not understand your comment here either.

There are 11 members on here thus far who have voted 'Remain' but up to now I have seen very little by way of contribution to this debate from the 'In' crowd - yourself and the ever dependable Joey apart - and very little reasons WHY they believe we should remain in.

I have been carrying out a full property modernisation for the past 7 weeks and have frequented 2 hitherto unfamiliar cafes and 1 hitherto unfamiliar Fish and Chip shop for lunch breaks, and as a result, I have become involved in quite lenghty but amicable discussions with owners and customers alike concerning the imminent EU Referendum.

For the most part, these were well educated people- some quite eloquent - but almost to a man THEY did not understand the EU, it's history, and its good and bad impact on the UK, and nor had they ever heard of The Rotterdam Effect or a host of other complexities such as the farcical con of 'Fishing Quotas' and the European Union’s corrupt Common Fisheries Policy (CFP).

I did not PREACH. I informed and discussed.

As the next few weeks passed more and more of those strangers approached me to tell me that they had been busy researching the EU and were now 'OUT' voters.

Thus - in the real world - ordinary people DO NEED to be informed and guided - though what they deduce from all the complex and contradictory B.S. out there is up to them.

The few benefits to the UK which can be attributed to the EU - such as the Working Time Directive - are heavily, heavily, outweighed by the infinite damage and bad things the EU is responsible for.

"Who Cares About Business"?

Well if we remain on the good ship 'EU' which is sinking fast, we will go down with it, and Working Time Directives are not a bit of good when there are NO businesses left employing people.

In any event, the WTD and other existing laws will not be easy for any UK Government to repeal EVEN if we do leave the EU.

[Kizzy]

9 out of 10 leading economists disagree, we have had no mention of WTDs, were there some assurances then that would be beneficial and yet, nothing.

[DemolitionRed]

Do I detect agression in this response Red? My questions were perfectly legitimate and were posed by me because I am genuinely puzzled by what you mean - not as any kind of attack on you personally.


Not at all, in fact I wrote that after my early morning yoga class. I'm as cool as a cucumber :hee: We know the written words a dangerous tool. I equally read aggression when you said, "Would you mind explaining just what you mean by this? It is the easiest thing in the world to make claims such as this, but could you just list your reasons for making such a claim?



I have not even mentioned immigration or the rights of 'Foreigners' - yet - so I do not understand your comment here either.


I know but I was talking generally. I quoted your post because you wanted to know why I'd say something like that and my answer came back as a general answer, not an accusational one towards you.

There are 11 members on here thus far who have voted 'Remain' but up to now I have seen very little by way of contribution to this debate from the 'In' crowd - yourself and the ever dependable Joey apart - and very little reasons WHY they believe we should remain in.

Not everyone has the inclination to politically express themselves. These sort of debates can become very heated and some people prefer to remain out of the spotlight.

I work with a bright bunch of people and they all voice whether we should be IN, OUT or not decided yet but over half of them haven't taken enough interest to learn about what could happen if we leave or what will happen if we stay. They are just not interested enough and that's fine, I'm not interested in some of the things they're passionate about.


I have been carrying out a full property modernisation for the past 7 weeks and have frequented 2 hitherto unfamiliar cafes and 1 hitherto unfamiliar Fish and Chip shop for lunch breaks, and as a result, I have become involved in quite lenghty but amicable discussions with owners and customers alike concerning the imminent EU Referendum.

For the most part, these were well educated people- some quite eloquent - but almost to a man THEY did not understand the EU, it's history, and its good and bad impact on the UK, and nor had they ever heard of The Rotterdam Effect or a host of other complexities such as the farcical con of 'Fishing Quotas' and the European Union’s corrupt Common Fisheries Policy (CFP).

I did not PREACH. I informed and discussed.

As the next few weeks passed more and more of those strangers approached me to tell me that they had been busy researching the EU and were now 'OUT' voters.

Thus - in the real world - ordinary people DO NEED to be informed and guided - though what they deduce from all the complex and contradictory B.S. out there is up to them.

Well there ya go! If you can spark an interest then I metaphorically doff my hat to you. We do though, have to accept when people don't want to listen or have an opposing view (even if their view is based on collective ignorance). As frustrated as we may feel at wasting our breath, its our own expectations that let us down, not theirs.

The few benefits to the UK which can be attributed to the EU - such as the Working Time Directive - are heavily, heavily, outweighed by the infinite damage and bad things the EU is responsible for.

"Who Cares About Business"?

Well if we remain on the good ship 'EU' which is sinking fast, we will go down with it, and Working Time Directives are not a bit of good when there are NO businesses left employing people.

In any event, the WTD and other existing laws will not be easy for any UK Government to repeal EVEN if we do leave the EU.

I'll try and respond to your last quote later but we are off out for a cycle now.

[Kizzy]

The difference being that this girl actually made a point which the politicians on the panel had no answer too. The more than 1,000 schoolchildren you are talking about just took part in an online poll to say in or out without any explanation.

What was her point,was it immigration or the minimum wage? I felt it was hazy.

[Alf]

What was her point,was it immigration or the minimum wage? I felt it was hazy.
I assume her point is the same as what Nigel Farage has been saying for years, an Australian style points system, bringing in the best people the World has to offer, not just anybody who's available in Europe.

That's what I made of it anyway.

[Kizzy]

I assume her point is the same as what Nigel Farage as been saying for years, an Australian style points system, bringing in the best people the World has to offer, not just anybody who's available in Europe.

That's what I made of it anyway.

What has that to do with an in out referendum? There is no assurance that issue will be addressed out of the EU, in fact it could signify immigration being expanded freely worldwide couldn't it?
If we were to take a seat in the WTO, there may be some provision to make free movement a condition of free trade.
The implications are not known are they so why is it so attractive a prospect?

[Kizzy]

How desperate and sinister is this?...

'The European Union is an explicit political project designed by a former communist, Iain Duncan Smith has said.

The Work and Pensions Secretary, a eurosceptic, said it was important for the British public to realise that the EU was not about trade – but political integration.

He highlighted the contribution of Altiero Spinelli, a political theorist and former European Commissioner, to the founding to the EU.'

'The late Mr Spinelli is one of 11 officially recognised founding fathers of the European Union; other include former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, who called for the creation of a United States of Europe.'
'Mr Spinelli died in 1986, seven years before the actual creation of the European Union.'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-smith-eu-communist-a6901211.html

[kirklancaster]

What has that to do with an in out referendum? There is no assurance that issue will be addressed out of the EU, in fact it could signify immigration being expanded freely worldwide couldn't it?
If we were to take a seat in the WTO, there may be some provision to make free movement a condition of free trade.
The implications are not known are they so why is it so attractive a prospect?


"If we were to take a seat in the WTO" ??????

We have been a WTO member since 1 January 1995.

And ANY suggestion that the UK leaving the EU COULD lead to an INCREASE in immigration to these shores is pure baloney.

Once WE regain control of our OWN borders AND laws, we can also properly control just who comes here.

GENUINE refugees will NEVER be turned away, but SOME of the endless swarm of 'so called' 'Economic Migrants', bogus 'Asylum Seekers' and covert 'Jihadists' WILL find us much less of an accomodating 'soft touch' at the expense of our own citizens.

What is more, the tens of billions of pounds saved will not only FUND more rigorous border policing, but will help raise our standards of care for BOTH Bona Fide Refugees AND those of our own citizens who are in need.

[arista]

IDS was Very Positive on Marr BBC1

[Kizzy]

"If we were to take a seat in the WTO" ??????

We have been a WTO member since 1 January 1995.

And ANY suggestion that the UK leaving the EU COULD lead to an INCREASE in immigration to these shores is pure baloney.

Once WE regain control of our OWN borders AND laws, we can also properly control just who comes here.

GENUINE refugees will NEVER be turned away, but SOME of the endless swarm of 'so called' 'Economic Migrants', bogus 'Asylum Seekers' and covert 'Jihadists' WILL find us much less of an accomodating 'soft touch' at the expense of our own citizens.

What is more, the tens of billions of pounds saved will not only FUND more rigorous border policing, but will help raise our standards of care for BOTH Bona Fide Refugees AND those of our own citizens who are in need.

As the UK not as the EU Kirk, why so many question marks are you really that confused?
Excuse me if a don't take on board your descriptor 'baloney' as an appropriate counter to my query.
You can't preempt what will happen once we are out of the EU with regard you can envisage a dads army titles scenario however I can't see that as being realistic.

[arista]

This Vote is not a Westminster Bubble
its every town and village and fish port
to Vote they way they wish.

The problem is the folks that are not
sure to vote In or Out, they
need to Shake it All About

[bots]

GENUINE refugees will NEVER be turned away, but SOME of the endless swarm of 'so called' 'Economic Migrants', bogus 'Asylum Seekers' and covert 'Jihadists' WILL find us much less of an accomodating 'soft touch' at the expense of our own citizens.


Sorry Kirk, but that has NOTHING to do with being in or out of Europe. We do not take economic migrants and jihadists that originated from outside europe now, only those who are registered EU residents, and that doesn't include and has never included anyone without an EU originating passport

[Alf]

Sorry Kirk, but that has NOTHING to do with being in or out of Europe.

Here's a brick wall for you to talk to Kirk

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVCKzd37FbmAsjGqYbf3dYX2mLslbgO zcH_vTjQSSVlYU3UldK

[DemolitionRed]

The EU is not and never has been about democracy and that's why I'm at pains to protect it. The reassurances I have are, the EU has brought about a union where there was once conflict and by doing that, its been able to keep conflict at bay. If the EU gives us nothing else, it makes us a robust 'state' and I think we all take that very much for for granted.

I love having the right to live and work anywhere within Europe and there's millions of us who enjoy that privilege but I hate the way Europe seems to be gravitating into a type of economical Yankee race to the bottom.


The few benefits to the UK which can be attributed to the EU - such as the Working Time Directive - are heavily, heavily, outweighed by the infinite damage and bad things the EU is responsible for.

"Who Cares About Business"?

Well if we remain on the good ship 'EU' which is sinking fast, we will go down with it, and Working Time Directives are not a bit of good when there are NO businesses left employing people.

In any event, the WTD and other existing laws will not be easy for any UK Government to repeal EVEN if we do leave the EU.


Do you really believe the government (our present one) would follow the legal doctrine of the EU when it comes to things like the WTD? We've had years of Cameron stomping his feet when the EU have heavy handedly told him he can't do this or that and its always been over some new legislation him and his quack doctors are plotting and something that will inevitably make the blue collar worker poorer still. The EU have thus protected the working people of Britain from a government that is neither fair nor just to a good percentage of its people.

There's been numerous occasions during Camerons time in office when he's made blatant noises about leaving the Union. That man's been playing with fire for years and so its little wonder half his cabinet are now voting against his wishes. He's directly responsible for stirring up this hornets nest in the first place. The sadist in me enjoys the pain he's presently suffering because its well deserved.

[Northern Monkey]

Sorry Kirk, but that has NOTHING to do with being in or out of Europe. We do not take economic migrants and jihadists that originated from outside europe now, only those who are registered EU residents, and that doesn't include and has never included anyone without an EU originating passport

Yes but we would have the capacity to take in more genuine refugees if we leave the EU as we wont be flooded with EU migrants which could evently expand to hundreds of thousands of Turks if they joined.

[kirklancaster]

As the UK not as the EU Kirk, why so many question marks are you really that confused?
Excuse me if a don't take on board your descriptor 'baloney' as an appropriate counter to my query.
You can't preempt what will happen once we are out of the EU with regard you can envisage a dads army titles scenario however I can't see that as being realistic.

:laugh: I feel it is you who are confused Kizzy. You stated "If we were to take a seat in the WTO" So what else can you mean by the word; 'We' other than, 'we in the United Kingdom'? To which my response was perfectly correct in pointing out that 'we' have been a member of the WTO since the 1st of Januaury 1995.

You are being deliberately infantile with your comments in the rest of your post.

[kirklancaster]

Here's a brick wall for you to talk to Kirk

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVCKzd37FbmAsjGqYbf3dYX2mLslbgO zcH_vTjQSSVlYU3UldK

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

Yes but we would have the capacity to take in more genuine refugees if we leave the EU as we wont be flooded with EU migrants which could evently expand to hundreds of thousands of Turks if they joined.

The thing about EU migrants is, we are a part of them. Millions of Brits are economic migrants that may have no choice but to return to Britain if we are no longer part of the EU and so yes, we make it more and more restrictive for the Spanish to live and work here and Spain makes it more and more restrictive for us to live and work there. The numbers returning will make up for the numbers leaving but that still won't leave that room you talk about for "genuine refugees/asylum seekers.