The EU - Referendum - 23rd of June 2016 - in or out?

[Red Moon]

Its all driving me mad at present but Boris is really annoying.
How the outs can get away with dismissing all the in side says, then being at best inventive with their own figures they present,while never answering a single point as to all that will be required to do, how long it will take to do, and what costs and conditions will be put in place once out.

Boris is the man that said:

“the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

Until he saw a way to get the Tory crown he was on the side of remaining in the EU and said “The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’.” and “I would be well up for trying to make the positive case.” to stay in the EU.

[Kizzy]

Yep, even his dad said it was purely tactical.

[joeysteele]

Boris is the man that said:



Until he saw a way to get the Tory crown he was on the side of remaining in the EU and said “The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’.” and “I would be well up for trying to make the positive case.” to stay in the EU.


Absolutely right,then he has the nerve to call others hypocrites.

[the truth]

Loved what the economics expert ruth lea said the other day about the merits of a brexit..." fortune favours the flexible, the nimble inherit the earth" That's damn right

[arista]

Justice Secretary Michael Gove
"Best Days Ahead' After Brexit"

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/19/459974/default/v1/cegrab-20160419-120532-533-1-736x414.jpg
[Out campaigner Michael Gove has set
out his "optimistic" vision for how the
UK would look if it votes to leave the EU.]

http://news.sky.com/story/1681338/best-days-ahead-after-brexit-gove-says

[joeysteele]

I saw no vision of any note for me from Gove,I like him but feel he is perhaps influenced more on this issue by possibly his domestics, his wife does work for a eurosceptic paper after all too.

Nothing he said today can be fully substantiated and it really is not good just to pooh pooh all the 'in' argument while not saying all the costs and conditions if out.
Nowhere has it been said by the EU or any other body that we can have a cost free,tariff free deal with the EU if we leave.

If he thinks we can, he needs to provide the 'solid' evidence of that,from the organisations and people that can guarantee it.

Actually, this is one of the poorest speeches I have heard from Michael Gove,it seemed very weak on content and that was more than likely because it was pure supposition and had no real relevant factual information at all.
That,for me, is sad to see from him really.

[Kizzy]

Posted this before... due another airing.

'I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

[DemolitionRed]

:think:Osborne suggests that the average UK household will be £4,300 worse off in 2030 as a result of leaving the EU. Did this man not stop to think how close that figure is to the £4K per-household figure estimate of the actual cost of Osbourne’s needless austerity policies.... That was, apparently, a price worth paying.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2015/04/economic-consequences-george-osborne-covering-austerity-mistake

[joeysteele]

:think:Osborne suggests that the average UK household will be £4,300 worse off in 2030 as a result of leaving the EU. Did this man not stop to think how close that figure is to the £4K per-household figure estimate of the actual cost of Osbourne’s needless austerity policies.... That was, apparently, a price worth paying.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2015/04/economic-consequences-george-osborne-covering-austerity-mistake

I rarely agree with Osborne,however as to his figures as to costs of leaving the EU, although probably slightly over exaggerated in my view, I agree with him that there must be substantial costs to the economy and therefore to UK households if the UK votes to leave.
He does have virtually at his fingertips all the info that would predict that so he can easily present it a more than strong likelihood.

As to austerity, there was never a need,in my opinion, for austerity to take place on the scale he did it,and in fact is still is doing it, that was a political choice of the political parties.
The 3 main ones anyway with the Conservatives,Labour and even the Lb Dems, all planning some forms of austerity cuts in 2010.

[DemolitionRed]

I rarely agree with Osborne,however as to his figures as to costs of leaving the EU, although probably slightly over exaggerated in my view, I agree with him that there must be substantial costs to the economy and therefore to UK households if the UK votes to leave.
He does have virtually at his fingertips all the info that would predict that so he can easily present it a more than strong likelihood.

As to austerity, there was never a need,in my opinion, for austerity to take place on the scale he did it,and in fact is still is doing it, that was a political choice of the political parties.
The 3 main ones anyway with the Conservatives,Labour and even the Lb Dems, all planning some forms of austerity cuts in 2010.

Its more the hypocrisy I was pointing out joey.

[joeysteele]

Its more the hypocrisy I was pointing out joey.

I do agree with you.
It is a little bit rich to warn households of losing spending power when he has been taking from and reducing spending power,from the poorest, for 6 years almost now.

[Red Moon]

If he thinks we can, he needs to provide the 'solid' evidence of that,from the organisations and people that can guarantee it.

I think that is the biggest problem with the Europhobes argument that they can't provide any type of guarantees at all so they have no choice but to attack the arguments of the other side of the debate and call them a fantasy, when they have more evidence to back them up.

In fact you could go as far saying it is the Europhobes that are living in a fantasy land where Britain is great again. A trading nation that ruled the sea and had a empire. Those days are gone and the world has changed. We no longer control large expanses of the world. Those nations have moved on and over the years we have slipped down the richest nation.

They say we will save £380 million a day, but the is reality we get part of that back. Then they claim that they will spend the money on everything and solve all the problems with the NHS, social care and everything else that needs money. When the money we save is just a drop in the ocean. There economics and spending plans for the money seem flawed.

Yes there is the question of migration into the UK and how that can be controlled to reasonable levels that nobody probably has an answer too in the Europhiles camp, but one has to remember the more people in the UK the more we produce and that adds to our GDP and the more tax the government gets to spend.

It is untrue that people come to the UK for benefits, in fact they often come because the pay is higher than at home and they speak and read English and not another European language. Most will be paying in more through the tax system than they take out and they work jobs that a lot of people wouldn't do. Many will return home as pay and job prospects improve in there own homeland. Lots just see us as a stepping stone to saving some money and working hard before returning home.

One of the reasons we pay into the EU more than we get out of the EU is so the poor counties can catch up economically though investment into infrastructure. Once they have caught up then coming to the UK will become far less attractive. That is happening Poland at the moment whose economy has growing as they modernise the country.

The thing nobody has mentioned yet is that there is a very very real prospect that the UK will be broken up by a out vote.

We know that most people in Scotland voted for a party that has strong desire to remain in the EU. That party which represents most Scotland are not going let the region leave the EU. They will demand another referendum and this time they will win. It one thing Europobes are scared to discuss or even mention.

[joeysteele]

I think that is the biggest problem with the Europhobes argument that they can't provide any type of guarantees at all so they have no choice but to attack the arguments of the other side of the debate and call them a fantasy, when they have more evidence to back them up.

In fact you could go as far saying it is the Europhobes that are living in a fantasy land where Britain is great again. A trading nation that ruled the sea and had a empire. Those days are gone and the world has changed. We no longer control large expanses of the world. Those nations have moved on and over the years we have slipped down the richest nation.

They say we will save £380 million a day, but the is reality we get part of that back. Then they claim that they will spend the money on everything and solve all the problems with the NHS, social care and everything else that needs money. When the money we save is just a drop in the ocean. There economics and spending plans for the money seem flawed.

Yes there is the question of migration into the UK and how that can be controlled to reasonable levels that nobody probably has an answer too in the Europhiles camp, but one has to remember the more people in the UK the more we produce and that adds to our GDP and the more tax the government gets to spend.

It is untrue that people come to the UK for benefits, in fact they often come because the pay is higher than at home and they speak and read English and not another European language. Most will be paying in more through the tax system than they take out and they work jobs that a lot of people wouldn't do. Many will return home as pay and job prospects improve in there own homeland. Lots just see us as a stepping stone to saving some money and working hard before returning home.

One of the reasons we pay into the EU more than we get out of the EU is so the poor counties can catch up economically though investment into infrastructure. Once they have caught up then coming to the UK will become far less attractive. That is happening Poland at the moment whose economy has growing as they modernise the country.

The thing nobody has mentioned yet is that there is a very very real prospect that the UK will be broken up by a out vote.

We know that most people in Scotland voted for a party that has strong desire to remain in the EU. That party which represents most Scotland are not going let the region leave the EU. They will demand another referendum and this time they will win. It one thing Europobes are scared to discuss or even mention.

Absolutely fantastic post full of all that the 'in' side only needs to keep saying too.
The 'in' side has no need to be scaremongering or giving out any 'dubious' figures.

I just hope enough listen and also read your post,maybe mine go on too long for most :joker:.
I also agree completely with the Scottish scenario,leaving the EU will open up a new major UK split which will further damage the economy of the UK overall too.

All we get from the 'out' side is negative after negative as to the EU with selective graphs, statistics and figures,rarely taking into account the returns too from the EU to the UK as you mentioned in your post.

This as I have said many times, is not just a decision for me personally or anyone else personally,this is a decision that will affect us all personally but it will also map out the future of the whole Nation too as well as the future generations too.
With absolutely nothing of any substance from the 'out' side and just about everything they say not supported across the board by major financial organisations, other Nations and even security and NATO as MTVN pointed out in his post earlier.
The out side then for me has not a credible leg to stand on.

Hopefully more and more will realise that and think really hard when making this vote as it cannot be overturned once made and done.

[Red Moon]

This as I have said many times, is not just a decision for me personally or anyone else personally,this is a decision that will affect us all personally but it will also map out the future of the whole Nation too as well as the future generations too.

That is so true I have three children, the eldest 17 and the youngest 8, none of which have the vote. Any decision we make on the 23rd of June will affect them for the rest of their lives.

All I see is the politicians of the far left and far right of the political spectrum campaigning to leave, while those in the centre of British politics are campaigning to stay. I would hate for us to leave and be left either of the two more extreme ends of British politics to be in control of the county. I can just imagine them pushing us into a position that is confrontational and further marginalising us from that of our neighbours. Centre ground politics might be boring but it is this grouping where thankfully most of policies are made and enacted.

The EU might not always be perfect, but no marriage of views from so many different counties will ever be perfect, but it better to find agreement and common ground than to fight against each other. If anything the EU is an example of diplomacy working and what it can achieve in comparison to that of conflict and disagreement that have wrecked so many regions of the world.

I see it as healthy that we are debating the EU and if we vote stay I hope it continues. If we didn't question the EU then we wouldn't have a healthy democracy as it is that debate that defines what we the British people want from the EU and that helps shape its future. We can't do that from the outside, all we can do then just disagree and shut up because nobody would listen.

[the truth]

The EU is simply there to enslave us to corporations and 20,000 politicians, the march of uber cabs across europe, uk and london is a perfect example. totally unregulated totally uninsured totally above all the expensive regulations and rules and security checks and insurance of every other taxi in the world? SCARY. The 70,000 word constitution of laws makes it impossible for small businesses to survive as they cant afford to deal with all that legislation. This makes europe with the horrific TTIP, a free for all for the corporations. I cannot even begin to tell you how frightening it is going to be. Think communist russia but replace stalin with the next enrons with absolute power to monopolise the entire economy , enforcing compulsory fixed prices on everything from energy to milk and throw in big brother to spy on your every move and black ball you from society if you ever dare to fight the power...In short the small personalised business are finished, the individual is dead...we cant fish, we cant opt out, we cant search without mass surveillance, we cant express ourselves, ..Orwell predicted every bit of it, he also predicted non speak would destroy our rights of free speech, this has come about in the form of political correctness , the ONLY people who will be allowed to say whatever the heck they like are those owning these corporations as they will be untouchable to all governments who can be bought out or sued out of existence....his vision of the future was a gigantic boot stamping on a persons face for eterntiy.....spot on as usual george......

[JoshBB]

I read today that Michael Gove said that he wants to leave the EU and instead join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) - now I'm not sure if he is aware, but that organisation does require us to maintain freedom of movement and we have to also pay more to access the market. We also then cannot send British MEPs to vote on law, so we are essentially just removing democracy from the hands of the UK and placing it within other european nations with a move like that.

I am one in the minority probably who would really like us to maintain the freedom of movement, but if we're going to do it, then we may as well do it from within the European Union where we have a say in what laws govern us. EFTA countries have to accept more-or-less the same legislation that Europe collectively passes without having a hand to raise in that. I don't understand why you'd choose to put yourself into a situation like that.

[Red Moon]

I am one in the minority probably who would really like us to maintain the freedom of movement, but if we're going to do it, then we may as well do it from within the European Union where we have a say in what laws govern us.

Can I join your minority, as I can see the positive benefits of being allowed to move freely around Europe and be able to work in member states as well as have people working here from the EU.

It has certainly help Britain solve problems with skills shortages in the past. You just have to think back to newspaper reports talking about the growing number of European plumbers, and a like, coming to the UK because we had a shortage of tradesmen. How many cleaners, nurses and other health workers in the NHS are European? It also helps people born here to take their skills and work outside the UK where they might be a demand where there isn't in the UK. It works both ways.

The free movement of people part of the debate is just a smoke screen to cover up successive government failures to plan for migration into the county.

The government for years have known that we have had net migration into the county but they have failed to spend the money on the basic infrastructure needed to provide the services the influx requires and to maintain same level of service over the years. Because of this now we don't have the school places, houses, doctors, etc that we need. Then you add the cuts of the last five years because the banks made a mess of it and we are were we are. It is not freedom of movement policy that is at fault, but bad planning.

It is easy to blame the EU and the freedom of movement than for the politicians to hold their hands up and say "we messed up", because that is what happened. That is what UKIP are doing and now the far right of the conservatives have joined them together with a lot of the national newspapers to attack people that pay money in taxes and add to the wealth of the country.

[the truth]

The biggest flaw with the freedom of movement is that so many countries border checks aare pathetic or non existent. The schengen is a disaster. instead of the governments taking away the civil rights of 500 million people by inspecting all their private emails and internet searches, they need to simply control the borders to prevent the movement of terrorists in the first place

[joeysteele]

I read today that Michael Gove said that he wants to leave the EU and instead join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) - now I'm not sure if he is aware, but that organisation does require us to maintain freedom of movement and we have to also pay more to access the market. We also then cannot send British MEPs to vote on law, so we are essentially just removing democracy from the hands of the UK and placing it within other european nations with a move like that.

I am one in the minority probably who would really like us to maintain the freedom of movement, but if we're going to do it, then we may as well do it from within the European Union where we have a say in what laws govern us. EFTA countries have to accept more-or-less the same legislation that Europe collectively passes without having a hand to raise in that. I don't understand why you'd choose to put yourself into a situation like that.


I am very happy to be one of your minority too Josh.

I personally feel the free movement issue is being badly presented by the 'out' side, I actually believe it is a good thing and as Nations in the EU eventually catch up with the more successful Nations in the EU, then less likely will their citizens want to move anyway.
I really believe the UK helping that process of the smaller Nations catching up,by remaining in the EU will be really beneficial to both the UK and the EU, as you say being there to help form and make decisions across the board.

However I am with you and Red Moon in a belief that the free movement is not a bad thing at all, no need for it to be presented in a sinister way at all in my opinion.

[bots]

With respect, it doesn't matter what the controls are or the freedom of movement is within other countries in the EU. We are responsible for our own borders still and those coming from EU countries without an EU passport will not be allowed in. Thus, the level of control with respect to people travelling freely within the rest of the EU does not apply to or affect the UK

[the truth]

With respect, it doesn't matter what the controls are or the freedom of movement is within other countries in the EU. We are responsible for our own borders still and those coming from EU countries without an EU passport will not be allowed in. Thus, the level of control with respect to people travelling freely within the rest of the EU does not apply to or affect the UK
it does effect as it allows the 1000s of people to flood towards our border and european laws mean we must let eu people in....we ourselves have to seriously improve our border controls as do these european countries to prevent the thousands of jihadis from doing any more damage

[joeysteele]

With respect, it doesn't matter what the controls are or the freedom of movement is within other countries in the EU. We are responsible for our own borders still and those coming from EU countries without an EU passport will not be allowed in. Thus, the level of control with respect to people travelling freely within the rest of the EU does not apply to or affect the UK

Absolutely, good points again.

[bots]

it does effect as it allows the 1000s of people to flood towards our border and european laws mean we must let eu people in....we ourselves have to seriously improve our border controls as do these european countries to prevent the thousands of jihadis from doing any more damage

This is where you are wrong. We allow people with EU passports in, not just anyone that happens to be in Europe. On top of that, we still can arrest or refuse entry to criminals or those flagged as being terrorist. There is a lot of alarmist nonsense being spouted that is factually incorrect.

[the truth]

This is where you are wrong. We allow people with EU passports in, not just anyone that happens to be in Europe. On top of that, we still can arrest or refuse entry to criminals or those flagged as being terrorist. There is a lot of alarmist nonsense being spouted that is factually incorrect.

no you are wrong, everything I just stated is correct. This is the alarmist nonsense spouted as incorrect by the stay in EU people. The shengen has been proved to have more holes that swiss cheese and directly lead to mass killings of innocent people just weeks ago. this will continue. The schengen is a disgrace and impacts upon us even though we are thankfully not signed up to this mindless leftist liberal disaster

[billy123]

America warns that if UK quits Europe it will probably invade

This is scary grrr. :fist:

THE US will probably invade Britain if it leaves the EU, according to senior White House sources.

Current and former US Treasury secretaries have confirmed that Brexit would be followed by drone warfare, airstrikes and a ground invasion to install a US-friendly regime.

Treasury secretary Tim Geithner said: “It’s nothing personal. It’s just what we do.

“You’ve got oil, the tribal leaders in Scotland and Wales are locked out of the democratic process, and your despotic ruler viciously abuses his own subjects while living in the lap of luxury.

“We’d go for a UN resolution first, then destroy the symbols of the tyrant’s regime like Buckingham Palace and Westminster, then move in on the ground.

“After that you get a few months of looting, then a puppet government, and usually within the year public order has broken down completely and it’s street warfare and three decades of intermittent bombing.”

Norman Steele of Portsmouth said: “I reckon I’ll become a militia fighter. They always seem to be having fun in jeeps.”

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/america-warns-that-if-uk-quits-europe-it-will-probably-invade-20160420108166

I will probably join my fathers army if this happens.

[arista]

Feck Off USA

[DemolitionRed]

America warns that if UK quits Europe it will probably invade

This is scary grrr. :fist:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/america-warns-that-if-uk-quits-europe-it-will-probably-invade-20160420108166

I will probably join my fathers army if this happens.

:joker:

[the truth]

disgraceful comments from obama

[arista]

disgraceful comments from obama

He has failed.

[Tom4784]

They're smart comments, why should the US have to babysit us if we do leave?

We're not magically going to be fine if we leave the EU, we'll be reliant on other countries to support us while we try to throw together trade deals with all the EU countries since we'd have shot ourselves in the foot by leaving a market we rely on.

That's not to mention that, without the EU in place, the Tories will be free to force all the cuts to ESA and benefits people depend on to live without fearing an EU inquiry. There are no pros to leaving the EU, only cons.

[joeysteele]

They're smart comments, why should the US have to babysit us if we do leave?

We're not magically going to be fine if we leave the EU, we'll be reliant on other countries to support us while we try to throw together trade deals with all the EU countries since we'd have shot ourselves in the foot by leaving a market we rely on.

That's not to mention that, without the EU in place, the Tories will be free to force all the cuts to ESA and benefits people depend on to live without fearing an EU inquiry. There are no pros to leaving the EU, only cons.




Excellent point.

[bots]

They're smart comments, why should the US have to babysit us if we do leave?

We're not magically going to be fine if we leave the EU, we'll be reliant on other countries to support us while we try to throw together trade deals with all the EU countries since we'd have shot ourselves in the foot by leaving a market we rely on.

That's not to mention that, without the EU in place, the Tories will be free to force all the cuts to ESA and benefits people depend on to live without fearing an EU inquiry. There are no pros to leaving the EU, only cons.

That applies equally to any government that is in power. I'm very undecided now on which way i will vote. Without a "safeguard" perhaps voters will think longer on who they vote for. It is after all them that choose a government to lead the country, we shouldn't be relying on europe, and certainly not be dictated to by unelected beaurocrats or faceless corporations

[joeysteele]

That applies equally to any government that is in power. I'm very undecided now on which way i will vote. Without a "safeguard" perhaps voters will think longer on who they vote for. It is after all them that choose a government to lead the country, we shouldn't be relying on europe, and certainly not be dictated to by unelected beaurocrats or faceless corporations

See,I like that, to have some fair more neutral balance with guidelines that will possibly help not only curb Conservative govts more extreme actions in power but also any other party,Labour or otherwise or coalition govts in power too.
I don't mind that at all.

We do also send MEPs to the EU as well,perhaps if we set out more to create bigger turnouts in European elections we may then send better MEPs to fight our corner and win greater influence in the EU.

[bots]

The BBC are doing an interesting series on the EU based on common items.

This one is on the sausage http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35648212

Which interestingly, would be more expensive if we left the EU :fist:

[the truth]

why send huw Edwards to interview Obama, nice guy but totally toothless and of course failed to ask him about TTIP which is what this is really all about. oh but they talked about baby george again ffs patronising irrelevant small talk

[Scarlett.]

It's funny really, people think we can just leave the EU without any big repercussions, if we leave we'd still be heavily dependent on the EU, except, we'd now be outsiders, making trade a lot more expensive. Also, it's pretty silly to think the EU wouldn't have any influence at all over us. Illegal immigration wouldn't just magically stop either, people would still sneak across the border, probably just as easily as they do now.

[the truth]

It's funny really, people think we can just leave the EU without any big repercussions, if we leave we'd still be heavily dependent on the EU, except, we'd now be outsiders, making trade a lot more expensive. Also, it's pretty silly to think the EU wouldn't have any influence at all over us. Illegal immigration wouldn't just magically stop either, people would still sneak across the border, probably just as easily as they do now.

ahh the old straw man argument, youre arguing against opinions which don't exist

no one says there wull be no big repercussions, there will be, there will also be big rewards

the eu would have some influence but not as much, wed have british laws and wed abide by them, british tariffs, british benefits, british bills , british firms allowed to fight for better energy deals, form our own indepdent industrial laws and masterplan....in time we could afford to dig coal if needed or slate or make steel too. To form our own trade deals, to recruit whatever medical staff we like anywhere in the world...to tighten border controls.to form as many cross nation agreement as we like

the eu will be much much weaker without us and others will follow us and the swiss and Norwegians and many more

the EU will fail regardless.....if we leave down we will simply suffer less damage than other nations

cross eu agreements can always be made, we can all be friends

the eu was meant to remove stupid red tape to make trade easier...its done the opposite, deliberately....so as to make it a closed shop for massive corporations


it cannot be reformed from within, that's impossible its way too far gone wrong

it must start again

laws on climate change, pollution, certain human rights, civil rights, etc etc many will remain, the dozens of worldwide organizations we will still be part of, oecd, g8 , g20 , nato, climate change, etc etc and like Norway we will still trade as they do with European countries

money talks and bull**** walks....everyone will want to do business with us, probably moreso than ever

[joeysteele]

It's funny really, people think we can just leave the EU without any big repercussions, if we leave we'd still be heavily dependent on the EU, except, we'd now be outsiders, making trade a lot more expensive. Also, it's pretty silly to think the EU wouldn't have any influence at all over us. Illegal immigration wouldn't just magically stop either, people would still sneak across the border, probably just as easily as they do now.

Exactly, the EU has Nations lining up to join it. The EU is going nowhere as to losing influence.
With other major Nations like Canada and the USA all wanting closer trading deals with it,its strength will only increase in trading terms.

No other Country has a deal with the EU that is good and full one where they can refuse to have the free movement of EU citizens to them too.

You are correct as to your illegal immigration point too.

Furthermore,it is said that it could take 2 years to fully sever our membership with the EU,well just imagine all the uncertainty and nervousness that would create as to business and investment in and to the UK.
To think that would not damage our economy over all that time is real pie in the sky stuff in my view.
Then it will depend just really what is actually in place for the UK and not what was hoped for or thought as possible but not certain, as to whether we make up the lost ground and even get to where we are today, let alone get any better.

Then that is before now very likely more constitutional issues, such as the SNP demanding a new independence referendum,if Scotland votes to stay in, which it will, and the UK votes overall to leave.
That will cause even more problems for our status and economy,all on top of our leaving the EU scenario.

For me, no way is such upheaval desirable or necessary, we helped form the EU as it is around 30 years ago, we are out of monetary union with the EU and we cannot sign any further treaties without a referendum for the consent of the UK voters.

We also are a success as a Nation and although big change is needed in the EU,just as we helped form the EU as it is now and signed up to all it has brought into play under both major parties in govt; then we need to be there helping bring about change too and not be outside with a trading deal where the EU can at its will change the conditions of same,with the UK unable to do a thing about it to keep any trade deal we may get with the EU.

[the truth]

Exactly, the EU has Nations lining up to join it. The EU is going nowhere as to losing influence.
With other major Nations like Canada and the USA all wanting closer trading deals with it,its strength will only increase in trading terms.

No other Country has a deal with the EU that is good and full one where they can refuse to have the free movement of EU citizens to them too.

You are correct as to your illegal immigration point too.

Furthermore,it is said that it could take 2 years to fully sever our membership with the EU,well just imagine all the uncertainty and nervousness that would create as to business and investment in and to the UK.
To think that would not damage our economy over all that time is real pie in the sky stuff in my view.
Then it will depend just really what is actually in place for the UK and not what was hoped for or thought as possible but not certain, as to whether we make up the lost ground and even get to where we are today, let alone get any better.

Then that is before now very likely more constitutional issues, such as the SNP demanding a new independence referendum,if Scotland votes to stay in, which it will, and the UK votes overall to leave.
That will cause even more problems for our status and economy,all on top of our leaving the EU scenario.

For me, no way is such upheaval desirable or necessary, we helped form the EU as it is around 30 years ago, we are out of monetary union with the EU and we cannot sign any further treaties without a referendum for the consent of the UK voters.

We also are a success as a Nation and although big change is needed in the EU,just as we helped form the EU as it is now and signed up to all it has brought into play under both major parties in govt; then we need to be there helping bring about change too and not be outside with a trading deal where the EU can at its will change the conditions of same,with the UK unable to do a thing about it to keep any trade deal we may get with the EU.

Fantasy land. the EU is bankrupt lol Thank goodness we walked our own path and kept the pound and kept our own monetary policy. if Greece , Italy , Portugal, Iceland, spain and even france had kept the franc their economies wouldn't be going down the toilet....this entire project is insane, its anti economics. all nations will fail in the eu bar Germany who control the monetary policy.

2 years is nothing compared to eternity, what you don't seem to understand is 1) were doing the eu a favour...2) the eu will collapse anyway 3) were fighting to stop ttip , the us wants one gigantic takeover , they cant do that
to individual countries 4) The majority of eu either bankrupt or in a dreadful economic state 5) unemployment across the eu is at all time record highs because of the EU

pls point me to any success stories inside the EU bar Germany and their next door neighbours Austria

then compare to the endless independent countries who control their own monetary policies, who are way stronger outside it....Switzerland, Norway, japan, Australia, new Zealand, Canada , America , south Africa, etc etc and no these nations do NOT want to join the EU as fully paid up members, propping up bankrupt nations, wasteful corrupt politicians, giving up their own laws and sovereignty

[joeysteele]

Fantasy land. the EU is bankrupt lol Thank goodness we walked our own path and kept the pound and kept our own monetary policy. if Greece , Italy , Portugal, Iceland, spain and even france had kept the franc their economies wouldn't be going down the toilet....this entire project is insane, its anti economics. all nations will fail in the eu bar Germany who control the monetary policy.

2 years is nothing compared to eternity, what you don't seem to understand is 1) were doing the eu a favour...2) the eu will collapse anyway 3) were fighting to stop ttip , the us wants one gigantic takeover , they cant do that
to individual countries 4) The majority of eu either bankrupt or in a dreadful economic state 5) unemployment across the eu is at all time record highs because of the EU

pls point me to any success stories inside the EU bar Germany and their next door neighbours Austria

then compare to the endless independent countries who control their own monetary policies, who are way stronger outside it....Switzerland, Norway, japan, Australia, new Zealand, Canada , America , south Africa, etc etc and no these nations do NOT want to join the EU as fully paid up members, propping up bankrupt nations, wasteful corrupt politicians, giving up their own laws and sovereignty

Look, you and I are likely wasting our time this thread,I will never agree with you likely and you certainly are only able to rudely in my view get away with dismissing anything anyone who disagrees with you says.


For me with regret the fantasy land is the one that is 'out' because no one has single idea as to what will really happen.
Clearly you do not either.
You mention Norway and Switzerland, they both have to accept free movement of EU citizens.
By the way it is European Nations that can join the EU as full members, not Australia and New Zealand and the USA.
They are not in Europe.


You can dismiss 2 years as nothing but it is a long time for business and investment to see uncertainty on.
The one place there is no fantasy is in the EU, good or bad we know with greater certainty what we are likely to be doing in years to come and the past decades in the EU show we can be successful.

We are not fighting TTIP at all, TTIP may never even be agreed in this present form, it most certainly will have an almighty struggle to be ratified by the EU Nations that is for sure.
If we left the EU no way could we then even have a vote as to TTIP and the EU deal anyway.
So we are hardly fighting it.

There you are, more rubbish and nonsense for you to dismiss but as I have done it for you, there is really no need to respond with the fullest respect.
If you do, I will have to ignore you as you are just,sadly in my view,simply too rude to debate with anyway and rarely show any respect for others opposite positions and views on issues.

[the truth]

Look, you and I are likely wasting our time this thread,I will never agree with you likely and you certainly are only able to rudely in my view get away with dismissing anything anyone who disagrees with you says.


For me with regret the fantasy land is the one that is 'out' because no one has single idea as to what will really happen.
Clearly you do not either.
You mention Norway and Switzerland, they both have to accept free movement of EU citizens.
By the way it is European Nations that can join the EU as full members, not Australia and New Zealand and the USA.
They are not in Europe.


You can dismiss 2 years as nothing but it is a long time for business and investment to see uncertainty on.
The one place there is no fantasy is in the EU, good or bad we know with greater certainty what we are likely to be doing in years to come and the past decades in the EU show we can be successful.

We are not fighting TTIP at all, TTIP may never even be agreed in this present form, it most certainly will have an almighty struggle to be ratified by the EU Nations that is for sure.
If we left the EU no way could we then even have a vote as to TTIP and the EU deal anyway.
So we are hardly fighting it.

There you are, more rubbish and nonsense for you to dismiss but as I have done it for you, there is really no need to respond with the fullest respect.
If you do, I will have to ignore you as you are just,sadly in my view,simply too rude to debate with anyway and rarely show any respect for others opposite positions and views on issues.
lol I find it hilarious how you claim falsely everyone is rude who disagrees with every word you say
I and many others have provided endless facts to prove you are wrong and to prove brexitors are right ...starting with 48% youth unemployment in Italy where the government was replaced by the eu in a totally undemocratic takeover....unemployment in Greece is 24% ....its even doubled in france. france? the original eu big shots...The list of nations destroyed by the euro and eu is very long and 100s of millions of lives have been seriously damaged , yet you bury your head in the sand and ignore all of this
you ignore the fact we lost billions every year, you ignore the fact many of the people at the eu are unelected, they are nominated....you ignore the fact there are more jihadis free to roam Europe than every, you ignore the fact more terrorists murders have occurred around europe in the last year than any other year in history..you ignore the fact the debts per eu nation are higher than ever
you ignore the fact clearly the eu will want to build an army. this will of course undermine nato
ttip is going to happen if we stay in the eu...the usa has been working on ttip for 4 years....they know if we leave it weakens the eu and means the eu will unravel to democratic sovereign democracies again...the usa are scared of that.....there is no limit to their lust and greed. they simply want to eradicate our laws and rules to suit their own corrupt corporations. ttip is why Obama came to Europe, that is why he is in Europe today
they want to take over Europe , it really is that simple

[Kizzy]

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video

[joeysteele]

lol I find it hilarious how you claim falsely everyone is rude who disagrees with every word you say
I and many others have provided endless facts to prove you are wrong and to prove brexitors are right ...starting with 48% youth unemployment in Italy where the government was replaced by the eu in a totally undemocratic takeover....unemployment in Greece is 24% ....its even doubled in france. france? the original eu big shots...The list of nations destroyed by the euro and eu is very long and 100s of millions of lives have been seriously damaged , yet you bury your head in the sand and ignore all of this
you ignore the fact we lost billions every year, you ignore the fact many of the people at the eu are unelected, they are nominated....you ignore the fact there are more jihadis free to roam Europe than every, you ignore the fact more terrorists murders have occurred around europe in the last year than any other year in history..you ignore the fact the debts per eu nation are higher than ever
you ignore the fact clearly the eu will want to build an army. this will of course undermine nato
ttip is going to happen if we stay in the eu...the usa has been working on ttip for 4 years....they know if we leave it weakens the eu and means the eu will unravel to democratic sovereign democracies again...the usa are scared of that.....there is no limit to their lust and greed. they simply want to eradicate our laws and rules to suit their own corrupt corporations. ttip is why Obama came to Europe, that is why he is in Europe today
they want to take over Europe , it really is that simple

Wrong again,I do not, to you actually I do really say that to,because it is true,there are very few indeed on here are as rude as you are to myself and maybe even others with opposing views to yours.
I try to counter a view with my view as politely as I can and should,
How you get away with your rudeness, not just to me, is mystifying to me.

Really best leave it there, and now for me sorry and very regrettably, you are really someone now who only deserves my silence.
That is how it will be from now on,even when I do agree with anything you say too.

[the truth]

Wrong again,I do not, to you actually I do really say that to,because it is true,there are very few indeed on here are as rude as you are to myself and maybe even others with opposing views to yours.
I try to counter a view with my view as politely as I can and should,
How you get away with your rudeness, not just to me, is mystifying to me.

Really best leave it there, and now for me sorry and very regrettably, you are really someone now who only deserves my silence.
That is how it will be from now on,even when I do agree with anything you say too.

yet again youre ignoring all the facts of the suffering of 100s of millions of Europeans under this crazy unaccountable EU dictatorship. italys government was replaced by the eu without any elections, you call that democracy? that's the future, oh and ttip ensuring all governments can be sued by corporations, marvellous. that's the future you are supporting

[joeysteele]

yet again youre ignoring all the facts of the suffering of 100s of millions of Europeans under this crazy unaccountable EU dictatorship. italys government was replaced by the eu without any elections, you call that democracy? that's the future, oh and ttip ensuring all governments can be sued by corporations, marvellous. that's the future you are supporting

I will try once more, I am strongly for in but I accept there is a lot wrong with the EU.
There are good things as to it too.

You are strongly for out,I respect that and actually I think 'out' will win the day come the referendum now.

I don't ignore facts because from 'out' and 'in' what are called facts are often anything but.
We haven't true democracy in the UK any more anyway,with an electoral system that allows under 4 in every 10 voters to elect the govt now.

I do not like the sound of TTIP, you are preaching to the converted already as to that,however I do not believe it will be accepted in its present form and I also do not think all EU Nations will allow it to be ratified anyway.

from your perspective,you believe that the UK can have a good future out of the EU,you may well be right and I could be way wrong avidly supporting the EU.
I know where I am with the EU however so will be sticking with it,I could however consider voting out if I could see a plan with other Nations for the UKs future out and not just words.

[Liberty4eva]

I am shocked that "Remain" is winning. Why, on earth, do you want to be bossed around by people in Brussels? When someone offers you a get out of jail free card, take advantage of it.

[the truth]

I know its incredible. the eu is bankrupt.

[SocietyIsRuined]

I am against big corporations ruling over us, so I vote out.

[the truth]

I am against big corporations ruling over us, so I vote out.
yeah me too

[arista]

[UK Better Off Outside EU, Economists Say
A group of experts says the
economy would be stronger
after a Brexit and dismiss
Treasury warnings as "totally misleading".]

http://news.sky.com/story/1686730/uk-better-off-outside-eu-economists-say

[bots]

The UK would be "less attractive" to Japanese investors if it votes to leave the European Union, Japan's prime minister has said.

Shinzo Abe said Japan's business sector saw the UK as a "gateway" to Europe.

The UK will go to the polls in a referendum on its EU membership on 23 June.

Matthew Elliott, the chief executive of Vote Leave campaign, said he did not accept Mr Abe's "do as I say, not as we do attitude".

Mr Abe - who made his comments during a joint press conference in No 10 with Mr Cameron - said Japan would rather negotiate a trade deal with the EU as a block, rather than "individual states" in Europe.

He also said Tokyo would be paying "very close attention" to the outcome of the EU vote, adding that more than 1,000 Japanese firms had invested in the UK, creating 140,000 jobs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36215146

[joeysteele]

The UK would be "less attractive" to Japanese investors if it votes to leave the European Union, Japan's prime minister has said.

Shinzo Abe said Japan's business sector saw the UK as a "gateway" to Europe.

The UK will go to the polls in a referendum on its EU membership on 23 June.

Matthew Elliott, the chief executive of Vote Leave campaign, said he did not accept Mr Abe's "do as I say, not as we do attitude".

Mr Abe - who made his comments during a joint press conference in No 10 with Mr Cameron - said Japan would rather negotiate a trade deal with the EU as a block, rather than "individual states" in Europe.

He also said Tokyo would be paying "very close attention" to the outcome of the EU vote, adding that more than 1,000 Japanese firms had invested in the UK, creating 140,000 jobs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36215146


Indeed and for me those sort of 'concerns' should not be instantly dismissed.

[DemolitionRed]

One things for sure. If we vote to come out of the EU, the pound will drop overnight and could remain down for some time. I have a dollar account with my bank and I've transferred most of our savings into that account for the time being. I'd advise anyone with any sort of significant savings and who may want to get their hands on those savings in next few years, to start buying dollars now.

Overly precautious perhaps but then I always am when it comes to money.

[smudgie]

One things for sure. If we vote to come out of the EU, the pound will drop overnight and could remain down for some time. I have a dollar account with my bank and I've transferred most of our savings into that account for the time being. I'd advise anyone with any sort of significant savings and who may want to get their hands on those savings in next few years, to start buying dollars now.

Overly precarious perhaps but then I always am when it comes to money
Yes, could be a hard time of it for a while.
We are contemplating buying another property, hoping the financial avisor can help:shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

Yes, could be a hard time of it for a while.
We are contemplating buying another property, hoping the financial avisor can help:shrug:

If its an unbiased broker you are looking for then you should take a look at The Money Advice Service https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/choosing-a-financial-adviser
This site will give you vouched for advisor's in your area.

[Johnnyuk123]

Indeed and for me those sort of 'concerns' should not be instantly dismissed.

Also not to be dismissed instantly is handing over 50 plus million a day to the EU which is enough of a BIG red flag for me and many others to vote out. That saving alone means every eight days we can now build a brand new hospital for UK residents. Not too be sniffed at. Hmm do i want UK money to be spent abroad or in the UK? No brainer if you ask me. Does the UK need their hand holding like a 5yr old crossing the road with an adopted un elected parent. Nope.

[joeysteele]

Also not to be dismissed is handing over 50 plus million a day to the EU which is enough of a BIG red flag for me and many others to vote out. That saving means every eight days we can build a brand new hospital for UK residents. Not too be sniffed at. Hmm do i want UK money to be spent abroad or in the UK? No brainer if you ask me.

I don't think anything relevant should be dismissed instantly and I don't dismiss all that the out side says.

While I disagree in part with you myself, that any savings as to our fee to be in the EU would actually end up benefiting much in reality, considering how our own govts of both parties waste funding,left right and centre when in govt.
I can also agree that 25million a day not 50million as 50million is the gross figure,is still a substantial figure and not to be dismissed as a relevant saving.

Therefore of course your points have merit too and I actually am still looking at all the out side says.
Not that my mind is likely to be changed.although stranger things have happened, I will and do however listen to all that's put forward that has a concrete basis to it, no matter which side presents it.

[Johnnyuk123]

I don't think anything relevant should be dismissed instantly and I don't dismiss all that the out side says.

While I disagree in part with you myself, that any savings as to our fee to be in the EU would actually end up benefiting much in reality, considering how our own govts of both parties waste funding,left right and centre when in govt.
I can also agree that 25million a day not 50million as 50million is the gross figure,is still a substantial figure and not to be dismissed as a relevant saving.

Therefore of course your points have merit too and I actually am still looking at all the out side says.
Not that my mind is likely to be changed.although stranger things have happened, I will and do however listen to all that's put forward that has a concrete basis to it, no matter which side presents it.

I have question for you....
Do you believe that the UK needs to have it's hand held by the EU and if so why do we need to have said hand held? Is the UK too weak to do it by themselves?

[bots]

I have question for you....
Do you believe that the UK needs to have it's hand held by the EU and if so why do we need to have said hand held? Is the UK too weak to do it by themselves?

I don't want the UK's hand held, but to put things in to perspective, in or out of the EU, we still have to get along with our closest neighbours and do the majority of our trade with them. While I do think we over contribute to the EU, I don't think the difference in real money is as substantial as it is being painted to appear. I'm quite annoyed really, because neither side has been clear on it. Its not as black and white as its being painted from either side and that, in my opinion is a great disservice to the British people.

I'm very on the fence with my vote at the moment. I can see clear benefits in or out, but no-one has been able to move forward from blanket statements and as we all know, the devil is in the detail.

[joeysteele]

I have question for you....
Do you believe that the UK needs to have it's hand held by the EU and if so why do we need to have said hand held? Is the UK too weak to do it by themselves?

No I don't think it does.
I think that is a strong point from you and the out side, I do believe that over time the UK would do okay out of the EU.

Having said that however I think at this moment in time,in my view, it is preferable to be closer with the EU than drifting away.and therefore see any even temporary economic downturn as not desirable.

There's almost 2 months still to go, let's see what is put forward in that time up to the referendum.

[Johnnyuk123]

A while back during the floods UK residents who's homes were flooded struggled to get money to make repairs while in EU countries money was being spent on flood barriers where no floods took place. Money spent to protect none UK residents but paid for by the UK who sent said money to the EU who then spent it on those countries but NOT on the UK for their actual real life flood problems. Are you ok with that?

[Johnnyuk123]

I don't want the UK's hand held, but to put things in to perspective, in or out of the EU, we still have to get along with our closest neighbours and do the majority of our trade with them. While I do think we over contribute to the EU, I don't think the difference in real money is as substantial as it is being painted to appear. I'm quite annoyed really, because neither side has been clear on it. Its not as black and white as its being painted from either side and that, in my opinion is a great disservice to the British people.

I'm very on the fence with my vote at the moment. I can see clear benefits in or out, but no-one has been able to move forward from blanket statements and as we all know, the devil is in the detail.

It all comes down to this. Do you want the UK to be controlled by the EU or not.

[DemolitionRed]

A while back during the floods UK residents who's homes were flooded struggled to get money to make repairs while in EU countries money was being spent on flood barriers where no floods took place. Money spent to protect none UK residents but paid for by the UK who sent said money to the EU who then spent it on those countries but NOT on the UK for their actual real life flood problems. Are you ok with that?

Good point but this present Conservative government are not going to spend all that saved EU money on Britain's bare necessities are they?

[bots]

A while back during the floods UK residents who's homes were flooded struggled to get money to make repairs while in EU countries money was being spent on flood barriers where no floods took place. Money spent to protect none UK residents but paid for by the UK who sent said money to the EU who then spent it on those countries but NOT on the UK for their actual real life flood problems. Are you ok with that?

There will always be examples like that. Think back to the food mountains years ago for the best ever example. The same thing happens every day across the UK where money isn't directed properly. That will happen in or out of the EU.

[joeysteele]

A while back during the floods UK residents who's homes were flooded struggled to get money to make repairs while in EU countries money was being spent on flood barriers where no floods took place. Money spent to protect none UK residents but paid for by the UK who sent said money to the EU who then spent it on those countries but NOT on the UK for their actual real life flood problems. Are you ok with that?

Again no I am not.

However I would like to have seen too better action taken by our own govts,both Labour in the floods they had in 2007,and also the Conservatives in the 2 recent bad flooding periods again.

[Johnnyuk123]

Again no I am not.

However I would like to have seen too better action taken by our own govts,both Labour in the floods they had in 2007,and also the Conservatives in the 2 recent bad flooding periods again.

Please note that if you vote to stay in the EU then the conservatives,Labour and whoever party etc will have little to no say at all. A vote to stay in is a vote to hand over even more power to unelected people to decide what the UK does from afar. If you are ok with that then great, but i am not ok with that.

[joeysteele]

Please note that if you vote to stay in the EU then the conservatives,Labour and whoever party etc will have little to no say at all. A vote to stay in is a vote to hand over power to unelected people to decide what the UK does from afar. If you are ok with that then great, but i am not ok with that.

Personally,I am not sure curbs on govts of any party are necessarily a bad thing.

Looking back over the political history of govts in the UK since 1992,in other words my lifetime.
I feel massive disappointment and let down by all of them.

Also if the EU has any power at all over the UK,our govts and Prime Ministers who signed all the treaties are the ones that gave then any of it.
However that cannot be the case now, since the coalition govt, made it impossible for any Prime Minister of any govt to just sign a treaty ad any new treaty has to be presented now to the UK electorate and approved or rejected by them.

[Johnnyuk123]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8638466]Personally,I am not sure curbs on govts of any party are necessarily a bad thing.

Looking back over the political history of govts in the UK since 1992,in other words my lifetime.
I feel massive disappointment and let down by all of them.

Voting to stay in would mean you are voting for something and someone you do not actually know. At least you know those in the UK in gov. Can you honestly name the top 3 EU leaders who make decisions for the UK? I can't but can you? ( without googling it) yet you are very keen to hand over power for these total strangers to run the UK? Hmm

[bots]

Personally,I am not sure curbs on govts of any party are necessarily a bad thing.

Looking back over the political history of govts in the UK since 1992,in other words my lifetime.
I feel massive disappointment and let down by all of them.


Voting to stay in would mean you are voting for something and someone you do not actually know. At least you know those in the UK in gov. Can you honestly name the top 3 EU leaders who make decisions for the UK? I can't but can you? ( without googling it) yet you are very keen to hand over power for these total strangers to run the UK? Hmm

A benefit of that is the stability it brings. It really doesn't matter much who is in those positions, as the terms of operation have already been set, after that ... just turn the wheels to keep it running

[smudgie]

If its an unbiased broker you are looking for then you should take a look at The Money Advice Service https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/choosing-a-financial-adviser
This site will give you vouched for advisor's in your area.

Thanks DR..ours comes out at the top of the list for this area.

[arista]

The PM is Live now
Utter Bollocks
he is talking , again.

"Safer"

he keeps saying
Our safety does not change at all.

[bots]

The PM is Live now
Utter Bollocks
he is talking , again.

"Safer"

he keeps saying
Our safety does not change at all.

In this particular instance, I do think the PM has a point. If we are in the EU we remain a part of Europe. No country is allowed to war with another. That's simply not the case if we are not in the EU. Isolation by its nature brings conflict. Look at North Korea!

[joeysteele]

In this particular instance, I do think the PM has a point. If we are in the EU we remain a part of Europe. No country is allowed to war with another. That's simply not the case if we are not in the EU. Isolation by its nature brings conflict. Look at North Korea!

I agree, he may be overstating things a bit but it is a valid point he is trying to make.

[Kizzy]

I do want to remain but I don't agree with terms such as the ' united states of Europe'.

[DemolitionRed]

In this particular instance, I do think the PM has a point. If we are in the EU we remain a part of Europe. No country is allowed to war with another. That's simply not the case if we are not in the EU. Isolation by its nature brings conflict. Look at North Korea!

I'm voting out for other reasons but if it wasn't for the TTIP deal, I would definitely be voting to stay in. Since the EU was formed, there have been few conflicts and no wars within European Union. If you look at the early to mid 20th century compared to the late 20th century and early 21st century, Europe became far more peaceful after the union was formed.

[Kizzy]

I'm really conflicted by this TTIP malarkey, it's some real ' new world order' shiz.

[bots]

I'm voting out for other reasons but if it wasn't for the TTIP deal, I would definitely be voting to stay in. Since the EU was formed, there have been few conflicts and no wars within European Union. If you look at the early to mid 20th century compared to the late 20th century and early 21st century, Europe became far more peaceful after the union was formed.

The thing that worries me most about staying in europe is the prospect of Turkey getting membership. It will skew the entire dynamic in 100 different fundamental ways, none of them for the better. From what I can see its pretty much a done deal. That issue alone outweighs all other factors and has me balanced more toward out than in.

[MTVN]

The thing that worries me most about staying in europe is the prospect of Turkey getting membership. It will skew the entire dynamic in 100 different fundamental ways, none of them for the better. From what I can see its pretty much a done deal. That issue alone outweighs all other factors and has me balanced more toward out than in.

People have been saying Turkey will join for years, I don't think its closer now than it was twenty years ago. Cameron has emphatically said it won't happen anytime soon and there will be similar levels of opposition across the EU.

[bots]

People have been saying Turkey will join for years, I don't think its closer now than it was twenty years ago. Cameron has emphatically said it won't happen anytime soon and there will be similar levels of opposition across the EU.

there were negotiations over the refugee crisis and refugees being returned to Turkey. Part of that deal was to fast track Turkeys integration into Europe. If the UK has a veto all well and good, but not so long ago Blair was championing their joining, so there is even in the UK those that want it to happen.

[MTVN]

there were negotiations over the refugee crisis and refugees being returned to Turkey. Part of that deal was to fast track Turkeys integration into Europe. If the UK has a veto all well and good, but not so long ago Blair was championing their joining, so there is even in the UK those that want it to happen.

Turkey might be able to secure visa free travel for its citizens but that would be dependent on them meeting a lot of conditions and would only apply to the schengen area in any case, not the UK. This is what Cameron said about it the other day:

"I will be absolutely frank with you, I don't think the accession of Turkey to the European Union is remotely on the cards. I don't think it will happen for decades.

"If you look at the facts, the facts are that it requires unanimity of all European members. The French, for instance, have said they'd have a referendum on it.

"I would say very clearly to people, if your vote in this referendum is being influenced by considerations about Turkish membership of the EU, don't think about it. It's not remotely on the cards. It's not an issue in this referendum and it shouldn't be."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36205844

This article also makes clear how difficult it'd be for Turkey to join the EU: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

[bots]

thanks, i will look into that further.

[joeysteele]

People have been saying Turkey will join for years, I don't think its closer now than it was twenty years ago. Cameron has emphatically said it won't happen anytime soon and there will be similar levels of opposition across the EU.

Absolutely MTVN, also all the other EU Nations have as to agree to a new member too and that seems as far away for Turkey as possible as you rightly put it, anytime soon.

I would guess some deal may eventually be done with Turkey as a sweetener but not full EU membership.
the same with the TTIP deal, it has to be ratified by all the EU Nations, if we stay in, ourselves being one of them.
However that too seems doomed to failure too as to getting ratified, when it is, or even if ever, it's even concluded and presented to the EU Nations at all.

[_Tom_]

Sky News will hold the first live Brexit TV debate with Cameron and Gove facing questions from journalists and the public:

http://news.sky.com/story/1694517/cameron-and-gove-in-eu-vote-shows-on-sky-news

[the truth]

Have you all registered to vote in this and why should we have to when we are already registered to vote for elections? STINKS

[the truth]

https://www.gov.uk/register-to-

[Cherie]

Have you all registered to vote in this and why should we have to when we are already registered to vote for elections? STINKS

If you were registered to vote in the May elections and are already on the electoral role you don't need to reregister :umm2:

[joeysteele]

If you were registered to vote in the May elections and are already on the electoral role you don't need to reregister :umm2:

That's what I was told too Cherie.

[bots]

i re-registered just to be sure

[joeysteele]

Incredible that Boris Johnson can get away with not a bit of criticism for invoking the name of Hitler in the campaign and get little comeback as to it.
What a mess of a politician he is,I would dare bet had Cameron actually recommended leaving, Johnson would have campaigned to remain in.
All he is doing is gearing up to challenge Cameron as leader and PM,that gets clearer to see for me every time he speaks.

How ridiculous and gutter like to compare the EU to Hitler and his regime, a man,regime and force that wanted to seek out, round up people,displace them from the nations they were in and mass murder them because of creed,race or sexual orientation.
What a pathetic,unnecessary and inflammatory comparison.

However on the other side, David Cameron warning of possible conflicts in Europe if we leave.
I agree with the few who have said on TV, if it is really this dangerous to leave,why on earth has a govt been so irresponsible in even holding a referendum on such a dangerous action as to even just possibly leaving,never mind being likely to.

On such an important decision as the day gets nearer to the vote,this campaign rather than being made better by both sides is going further down to the gutter to score points.
With the real undecided voters,getting utter nonsense and extreme comparisons thrown at them all the time.
Totally ridiculous.

The one sure thing for me is, whatever the result of this referendum,it will never be the 'right' result,in or out, because it will not have come from a reasoned,informative and accurately factual presentation of staying 'in' or the alternative of 'out'.
Shocking performances from both and in fact all sides.

The whole thing has become a total farce and that's simply disgraceful.

[bots]

Incredible that Boris Johnson can get away with not a bit of criticism for invoking the name of Hitler in the campaign and get little comeback as to it.
What a mess of a politician he is,I would dare bet had Cameron actually recommended leaving, Johnson would have campaigned to remain in.
All he is doing is gearing up to challenge Cameron as leader and PM,that gets clearer to see for me every time he speaks.

How ridiculous and gutter like to compare the EU to Hitler and his regime, a man,regime and force that wanted to seek out, round up people,displace them from the nations they were in and mass murder them because of creed,race or sexual orientation.
What a pathetic,unnecessary and inflammatory comparison.

However on the other side, David Cameron warning of possible conflicts in Europe if we leave.
I agree with the few who have said on TV, if it is really this dangerous to leave,why on earth has a govt been so irresponsible in even holding a referendum on such a dangerous action as to even just possibly leaving,never mind being likely to.

On such an important decision as the day gets nearer to the vote,this campaign rather than being made better by both sides is going further down to the gutter to score points.
With the real undecided voters,getting utter nonsense and extreme comparisons thrown at them all the time.
Totally ridiculous.

The one sure thing for me is, whatever the result of this referendum,it will never be the 'right' result,in or out, because it will not have come from a reasoned,informative and accurately factual presentation of staying 'in' or the alternative of 'out'.
Shocking performances from both and in fact all sides.

The whole thing has become a total farce and that's simply disgraceful.

I agree with this, although there have been quite a few now that have rubbished Boris's comment. I do wonder what these live debates will be like. After months of misinformation on both sides, with just over a month to go, i can't see it improving. It is a shambles. I'm wavering back to staying in again. The number of knowledgeable voices now saying it would be madness to leave is becoming hard to ignore.

[joeysteele]

I agree with this, although there have been quite a few now that have rubbished Boris's comment. I do wonder what these live debates will be like. After months of misinformation on both sides, with just over a month to go, i can't see it improving. It is a shambles. I'm wavering back to staying in again. The number of knowledgeable voices now saying it would be madness to leave is becoming hard to ignore.

That swung it for me before any campaigning began.
I myself cannot see the point of risking anything as to how and where the UK is now.

I was stunned when Ian Duncan Smith yesterday said there, in effect, would be a downside to the economy for a couple of years if we left ,and although growth would probably continue,it would not be as good as it would have been if we were still in.

Not good enough for me, anyone knows,once you have an economy that goes down and there is weaker growth, that affects a lot for a good while to come.
A weaker growth and a downturn in the economy for a couple of years, would take us way behind where we should and could be.
Furthermore in my view after that couple of years,it could take anything from a further 2 to 3 years to even just try to get back to where we are now.

I am not prepared to risk the UKs more secured and successful status that is already in place now, for at least 2 years or probably more,heading down a bit into the doldrums.

[bots]

Farage is now saying that if the referendum result is not out and the vote is close, then there will be another vote :laugh:

[joeysteele]

Farage is now saying that if the referendum result is not out and the vote is close, then there will be another vote :laugh:

What a pathetic statement from him,why only if its a narrow result to remain should there be another vote, that sounds like someone expecting to lose now to me.

[Cherie]

Farage is now saying that if the referendum result is not out and the vote is close, then there will be another vote :laugh:

He can pay for it then :facepalm: I bet he wouldn't agree if out narrowly win

[MTVN]

Least he is saying it before the referendum I guess rather than only after they've lost

[Alf]

Slavery always makes a comeback, just look through the history books, still, we had a good little run of liberty and democracy, but it was never gonna last, because people in power like to control.

[arista]

Daily Politics
Andrew Neil is telling the TUC Women
that loads of Europe workers
are taking lower pay
that effects us.

[joeysteele]

i re-registered just to be sure

Good thing you did, a friend of mine checked too and found for some reason he was not on the register.
Perhaps if anyone hasn't voted for a while or who had no elections in their area this time round in the local elections,they should check to make sure too.

[DemolitionRed]

Daily Politics
Andrew Neil is telling the TUC Women
that loads of Europe workers
are taking lower pay
that effects us.

That's a little inaccurate. Foreign nationals are taking lower paid jobs not lower pay (no lower than the Brits taking lower paid jobs).

The economist claims it doesn't affect us but is being used in the Brexit campaign because its what the naive man in the street will pick up on.

[Kizzy]

No I think he's right, employers are recruiting via agencies abroad to avoid paying minimum wage.

'Official figures suggest that around 300,000 workers in Britain, often from overseas, are paid below the National Minimum Wage. But there have been hardly any successful prosecutions for breaking this law in the past three years'

'There is a loophole in the laws around agency work which allows firms to avoid paying agency workers at the same rates as directly employed staff. This is being used in sectors where levels of employment from abroad are high, such as food production, and now accounts for as many as one in six of those employed by agencies.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/well-close-this-unfair-low-wage-loophole-9039081.html
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/02/curb-immigration-pay-workers-living-wage

[Northern Monkey]

Well got my polling cards today.No registering required.

[Kizzy]

Well got my polling cards today.No registering required.

Same.
Funny how there's no mix ups when it's what dave wants.... :suspect:

[bots]

i have my card, all i need to do now is decide conclusively which way to vote :laugh:

[The Last Knight]

Immigration to the UK in the 1980s was approx. 30k-50k per year.

This number has now grown to almost 400k per year.

This puts a massive strain on our NHS, Housing needs, employment opportunities, school capacity, road congestion, police forces, waste recycling to name but a few.

Some may have forgotten their father's & mother's, grand parents and great grand parents who gave their lives for this country, will those who now reside here do the same ???, or will they claim it's not our fight, or decline to defend the country for religious or political beliefs, or perhaps simply run back to their country of origin.

Many countries in Europe and eastern Europe can now freely cross in to the UK, the same countries who were our sworn enemies not so long ago and yet our closest allies Australia have no right of free access ???.

Our laws have been continually changed to suit the needs of immigrants, yet they came because our previous laws and way of life was better and safer than the countries they came from, now they want to do things the way they did in their own countries, thus turning it into the country they wanted to get away from.

before anyone thinks I am be racist, I am white and my wife is black, my business partner is Asian, I have friends from many countries.

England is quite a small country in relation to the likes of countries such America, Brazil, Australia we are so small you could drop England into America and lose it.

We should have the right to say we cannot keep taking in more people at the current rate of 400k per year.

I constantly hear the eastern Europeans are willing to take on low paid work etc, the problem with low paid workers is they claim working tax credits, child tax credits, child care allowance and housing benefit, this can be 10 times more than they pay in tax and national insurance from earnings.

The current EU laws also state they can claim these same benefits for their families who are living in their country of origin, such as Poland, Slovakia etc etc, this can be more than double the average monthly wage income in said countries, these benefits run into the billions, money that never returns to the UK economy, we are making other countries economies stronger and our own weaker ???.

The government has increased the pension age of our mother's and grandmother's from 60 to 65 and in ten years time this will increase to 66-67 years of age, imagine being almost 70yrs old and having to get up for work at 6am and do a 8 or 10 work shift, also think about the competition for jobs at that age.

This is simple mathematics, more people, more cars on the road, more health care, more houses needed, more people the percentage of crime rises, more police needed, more people less jobs available, our towns and cities are rammed full.

Don't listen to David Cameron his future is safe, he and his family has shipped their money to off shore accounts to avoid taxes and bought property abroad to retire to when they leave this country is a mess, don't listen to the American economists and bankers etc as they are only interested in their investments in UK and Europe along with the tax breaks they enjoy.

[arista]

[This is simple mathematics,
more people, more cars on the road,
more health care, more houses needed,
more people the percentage of crime rises,
more police needed, more people
less jobs available, our towns
and cities are rammed full.]


Valid Point Last Knight

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Some may have forgotten their father's & mother's, grand parents and great grand parents who gave their lives for this country, will those who now reside here do the same ???, or will they claim it's not our fight, or decline to defend the country for religious or political beliefs, or perhaps simply run back to their country of origin.

Second World War Veterans Come Out Against Brexit:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-second-world-war-veterans-come-out-against-brexit-a7019646.html

[Northern Monkey]

[This is simple mathematics,
more people, more cars on the road,
more health care, more houses needed,
more people the percentage of crime rises,
more police needed, more people
less jobs available, our towns
and cities are rammed full.]


Valid Point Last Knight
Alot of people will only realise this when it's too late and the country is at a stand still.It's alteady heading that way.
Then will blame whichever government is in power for not building enough houses,schools,hospitals,roads etc when in reality it will be impossible to build enough for the amounts of people coming here.It will actually be all our fault for voting to remain in this mess.You could'nt make it up.All our generation will be old and grey and saying 'oh ****,We ****ed up did'nt we' and our grand kids will suffer for it.

[Johnnyuk123]

If you still need convincing to vote OUT of the EU then simply go and watch the Brexit documentary online . It's is absolutely shocking how much the EU is mugging off the UK in every aspect and on a daily basis. Vote OUT!:thumbs:

[joeysteele]

I've seen and heard some really way out claims from both sides of the EU issue over the last months but today watching a near demented presentation, both irrational and more like ridiculous ranting from Boris Johnson beats all of them so far.

How this man can be taken seriously totally mystifies me.

[Tom4784]

It's foolish to think that leaving will reduce immigration, naive in fact.

If we leave we'll need to renegotiate contracts with everyone in the EU and you can bet that one of the terms for those contracts will be a relaxed stance on immigration. All that leaving will do is put us in a worse position then we are currently and the only reason people want to do it is because they're fooling themselves into thinking it'll curb immigration.

[joeysteele]

It's foolish to think that leaving will reduce immigration, naive in fact.

If we leave we'll need to renegotiate contracts with everyone in the EU and you can bet that one of the terms for those contracts will be a relaxed stance on immigration. All that leaving will do is put us in a worse position then we are currently and the only reason people want to do it is because they're fooling themselves into thinking it'll curb immigration.

Absolutely right Dezzy.

I feel as sure as I can be that the one thing just about all the remaining 27 Nations, we would be leaving behind in the EU, will insist on is that the only way they will ratify any deal for the UK, is if the UK accepts the full and free movement of EU citizens.

[bots]

the world isn't the way it was 40 years ago when we joined. Everything has moved on, the majority for the better. Leaving the EU wont change the world we live in now and how we have to interact with it. I haven't seen a single claim yet from the out campaign that can actually be substantiated.

[Northern Monkey]

You forget that it is absolutely in all nations in the EU's interest to make a deal with us because they need us and it will hurt THEM if we put tarriffs on them.We do not have to accept free movement,We just don't sign.These nations need to trade with us.We are one of if not the biggest customer of their products.Not to mention that a deal is not necessary for trade.We trade perfectly fine with the US,China,Japan,Korea,African nations etc etc.
One thing is for sure.Immigration is uncontrollable whilst inside the EU.Nobody is saying to stop all immigration just that WE can decide the numbers and people we let in.For instance i would be in favour of taking a decent amount of refugees in if we actually had control of our borders.We could make that decision ourselves whilst keeping immigration down to manageable levels which our infrastructure can absorb.

[the truth]

dont you understand most EU nations are bankrupt? the whole thing is a disaster regardless what we vote. ONLY Germany and austria have strong economies....that will chnage eventually. the ONLY reason UK has done so well and created more jobs than all of europe put together, is simply because we kept the pound.
The pro EU lot tried to scare us to get rid of the pound too and called those against as xenophobic little englanders ........they were 100% wrong then and theyre 100% wrong now
meanwhile corbyn has been bullied into voting stay , he hates the eu

[Tom4784]

You forget that it is absolutely in all nations in the EU's interest to make a deal with us because they need us and it will hurt THEM if we put tarriffs on them.We do not have to accept free movement,We just don't sign.These nations need to trade with us.We are one of if not the biggest customer of their products.Not to mention that a deal is not necessary for trade.We trade perfectly fine with the US,China,Japan,Korea,African nations etc etc.
One thing is for sure.Immigration is uncontrollable whilst inside the EU.Nobody is saying to stop all immigration just that WE can decide the numbers and people we let in.For instance i would be in favour of taking a decent amount of refugees in if we actually had control of our borders.We could make that decision ourselves whilst keeping immigration down to manageable levels which our infrastructure can absorb.

It's a very idealistic view and far from a realistic one

We aren't as vital to the EU as you make us out to be, if we were the EU would be bending over backwards to get us to stay but that's not the case. It ridiculous to make out that we don't need the EU when they are our biggest market and it would impact our economy considerably if we left and couldn't get the same deals back in place. Immigration will be a cause in the new deals if we leave, nothing will change for the better. It can only get worse since we'd be hashing out those deals from a weaker position.

People who are going to vote to leave are cutting off their noses to spite their face.

[joeysteele]

the world isn't the way it was 40 years ago when we joined. Everything has moved on, the majority for the better. Leaving the EU wont change the world we live in now and how we have to interact with it. I haven't seen a single claim yet from the out campaign that can actually be substantiated.



Ditto for me and I am doing my best to find any.
There are lots of ifs ,maybes and don't knows but nothing else at all really.

[the truth]

[/B]


Ditto for me and I am doing my best to find any.
There are lots of ifs ,maybes and don't knows but nothing else at all really.

thats because all the national data is in the hands of the rich and powerful who are clearly scaring and brainwashing everyone into voting to stay in this illegal unaccountable corrupt wasteful unelected corporate serving corrupt bankrupt mega burocratic nightmare

[arista]

0tItgGcWVHw


Great Poltical Advert Shown tonight
on ITV, BBC ,Ch4 ,Ch5

[Johnnyuk123]

0tItgGcWVHw


Great Poltical Advert Shown tonight
on ITV, BBC ,Ch4 ,Ch5

A brilliant and truthful video report showing just how much of a mug we are by staying in the EU. And lets not forget if we do decide stay in they expect even MORE money.

[joeysteele]

Nothing great about it at all it is misleading.
It has been stated that the £350million a week figure is a misleading one to the voters, yet the leave campaign still uses it.
The real figure as was stated on the EU analysis on the news today is less than half that figure.

So there is no such thing as £350million a week saved to use for anything, and the real figure that is will be in reality less than half that amount.
Which will go next to nowhere likely in reality too, and for sure not do most, if any, of the things badly presented in that broadcast.

Until this lie of having £350million saved from not going to the EU every week is altered, the leave campaign every day it still uses it, loses even more of the little scrap of credibility it has left.

[Johnnyuk123]

Those MP's asking voters to stay in the EU failed to name those people who actually run the EU when shown their pictures. Yet these same MP's want you to trust them and trust these total strangers from the EU who they can't even name themselves.:joker:

[arista]

EU Net Migration Highest On Record

http://news.sky.com/story/1702361/eu-net-migration-highest-on-record

[Livia]

I notice that a lot of the people telling us how we'll fall apart as a nation if we leave the EU, are the self-same people who told us we faced financial ruin if we didn't accept the Euro.

I'm glad we didn't listen to them then and I don't intend to listen to them now.

[the truth]

I notice that a lot of the people telling us how we'll fall apart as a nation if we leave the EU, are the self-same people who told us we faced financial ruin if we didn't accept the Euro.

I'm glad we didn't listen to them then and I don't intend to listen to them now.

EXACTLY

[Northern Monkey]

I notice that a lot of the people telling us how we'll fall apart as a nation if we leave the EU, are the self-same people who told us we faced financial ruin if we didn't accept the Euro.

I'm glad we didn't listen to them then and I don't intend to listen to them now.
Not to mention some of these organisations are EU funded.Hardly and unbiased "independent" view.

[joeysteele]

We didn't join the Euro but remained in the EU,there is world of difference between not signing up to a part of something as to being a member of the EU and as to actually severing the membership altogether.

Even the obnoxious Ian Duncan Smith was forced to concede on the Sunday Politics show, the UK would have a downturn for 2 years if we leave and that growth will not be as good as it would,if we stayed in.
Not all forecasts are right of course, then again too not all forecasts are wrong either.

However if it is acceptable, and even the no side admits this will be the case, that anyone voting is not bothered about any downturn and weaker growth as to the UK economy if we leave,not really knowing the depth of that downturn or weaker growth, then they should vote to leave.

I however am bothered about any downturn to the UK economy, any downturn at all.
I certainly do not want to see, the sick,disabled, and most vulnerable yet again hammered by this govt to help with a further downturn and poorer growth.
Not in the slightest would I support that, so I'll still vote to remain.

[smudgie]

I thnk my mind has been made up.
:fist: those that tell the most ludicrous porkies won't get my vote.
Georgie boy lost my vote when he tried scare tactics with the older voter..threatening that they would be between £18.000 and £36.000 worse off.. the same pensions that are triple locked for safety..
This fib trounces the pathetic £350m a day lie.

[joeysteele]

I thnk my mind has been made up.
:fist: those that tell the most ludicrous porkies won't get my vote.
Georgie boy lost my vote when he tried scare tactics with the older voter..threatening that they would be between £18.000 and £36.000 worse off.. the same pensions that are triple locked for safety..
This fib trounces the pathetic £350m a day lie.

I do really think that anyone who just listens to Osborne is never going to get accurate information there,he has rarely ever got his own budgeting figures right year on year or targets.
I have no time for Osborne at all so discount much of what he himself says.

However even though I personally have no affection for the present PM much, he at least made some progress as to change with the EU in his negotiations and could likely get more too in the future in my view.
He has laid his full reputation on the line here in this referendum.
So what he says,I will listen to on this as I really believe he has searched and thought hard looking at staying in and what it would be like being out

Sadly the lies and nonsense from both sides are the worst thing about this whole referendum.

I do not however think the £350million a week lie should be overlooked as it is still being told repeatedly,especially by Boris Johnson.
One of the out side on tibb have informed me they agree it is not £350million a week but only £161million a week now.

Yet that vote to leave bus still says £350million a week will be saved and it is already being promised by Boris Johnson and others to science, the NHS,medical research,Education as well as among many other things too, well there is going to be very little indeed to give to all the areas being listed from that 'now' £161million in the end in my view.

No one is getting the information they should be and really need,in fact it is getting worse this campaign and even pointless.

[MTVN]

Yes and while the Leave campaign continue to bang on about £350m a week they really have no authority to accuse the Remain side of exaggerating or being misleading

I went to see Michael Heseltine speak about the EU today and was very impressed. He remains one of the most sensible Conservative voices and made as good a case for staying in as I've heard

[smudgie]

Yes and while the Leave campaign continue to bang on about £350m a week they really have no authority to accuse the Remain side of exaggerating or being misleading

I went to see Michael Heseltine speak about the EU today and was very impressed. He remains one of the most sensible Conservative voices and made as good a case for staying in as I've heard

I was impressed with Frank Field and the way he put his views across last week.
There are plenty of good honest down to earth speakers from both sides of the House..and also both sides of the argument.
It's a shame they put these "big guns" forward to waffle on and put us off, I have never found it so hard to decide what/who to vote for in my voting life.

[joeysteele]

Yes and while the Leave campaign continue to bang on about £350m a week they really have no authority to accuse the Remain side of exaggerating or being misleading

I went to see Michael Heseltine speak about the EU today and was very impressed. He remains one of the most sensible Conservative voices and made as good a case for staying in as I've heard

My Dad's political hero is Michael Heseltine.

I agree with you,I rate him massively too and he has said some truly reasoned and sensible statements as to the EU and how he sees things.
As you say impressive.

probably one of the best Prime Ministers as to politics the UK never actually got.

[bots]

its amazing how many politicians start to speak sense once they retire!. However, lets not forget that Heseltine was happy to sell off our last remaining helicopter manufacturer Westland to the French and Italians rather than the UK bail it out. So he is not known for backing British industry.

[Northern Monkey]

George Galloway and Nigel Farage actually agreeing on everything :laugh:/TJA7yfYRQCI

[Johnnyuk123]

If the in vote wins the UK will have no power whatsoever to change anything thrown at it from the EU. Take more immigrants,give us more millions to spend on other countries and we don't care what you say just do what WE say,we control YOU. Would the same in crowd people be happy to see someone un elected made prime minister of the UK? Of course they wouldn't. Any normal human being would want at the very least to have someone in charge of their affairs who was elected by the people for the people.

[arista]

If the in vote wins the UK will have no power whatsoever to change anything thrown at it from the EU. Take more immigrants,give us more millions to spend on other countries and we don't care what you say just do what WE say,we control YOU. Would the same in crowd people be happy to see someone un elected made prime minister of the UK? Of course they wouldn't. Any normal human being would want at the very least to have someone in charge of their affairs who was elected by the people for the people.


Valid Points Johnny

[bots]

If the in vote wins the UK will have no power whatsoever to change anything thrown at it from the EU. Take more immigrants,give us more millions to spend on other countries and we don't care what you say just do what WE say,we control YOU. Would the same in crowd people be happy to see someone un elected made prime minister of the UK? Of course they wouldn't. Any normal human being would want at the very least to have someone in charge of their affairs who was elected by the people for the people.

thats incorrect. We have the power of veto AND Cameron negotiated a get out clause where we don't need to comply with anything from this point forward.

[joeysteele]

thats incorrect. We have the power of veto AND Cameron negotiated a get out clause where we don't need to comply with anything from this point forward.

A true point and well presented by you as to making this concession known again.

Either this fact has selectively gone unnoticed and/or conveniently ignored, or even worse for those advocating this isn't the case, they are in fact stating that we have a present Conservative Prime Minister, who is deliberately setting out to deceive a whole Nation.

I have my issues with David Cameron but no way would I support the latter.
Not on this important issue.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/31/468832/default/v1/express-front-page-jpg-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/31/468837/default/v1/i-done-1-992x558.jpg

[DemolitionRed]

I'm not sure what Farage is smiling about because poor likkle Nige has been left outside in the wain.

[Niamh.]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/31/468832/default/v1/express-front-page-jpg-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/31/468837/default/v1/i-done-1-992x558.jpg

When I read that Ronnie Wood headline for a moment I thought someone had hired twin prostitutes for him for his birthday :worry:

[DemolitionRed]

When I read that Ronnie Wood headline for a moment I thought someone had hired twin prostitutes for him for his birthday :worry:

:joker:

[billy123]

Well i voted yesterday.
The result should be interesting.

[the truth]

blow up the shunnel give the bankrupt nations their currencies back then you can cancel the referendum and send cameron back to the pig farm

[Kazanne]

I really hope people vote for the good of the country and not to score points against Cameron just because 'they don't like him' as I see some people doing that , which is madness , he wont always be PM. people are saying all polititians are liars so remember some of those wanting us out are also polititians so they are lying too. I am as yet undecided but whatever way I go I will be thinking of the best for my children and the country.

[Cherie]

It's going to be close, I think we are going out, I think the whole immigration thing is going to swing it and the fact that a lot of under 25''s might not vote, if we do go out nothing will change overnight as new negotiations will have to take place, so anyone looking for a quick fix will be left disappointed.

[joeysteele]

I really hope people vote for the good of the country and not to score points against Cameron just because 'they don't like him' as I see some people doing that , which is madness , he wont always be PM. people are saying all polititians are liars so remember some of those wanting us out are also polititians so they are lying too. I am as yet undecided but whatever way I go I will be thinking of the best for my children and the country.

Good for you and yes I have oddly enough come cross people saying they are voting out because that will get rid of Cameron quicker.

I am no fan of David Cameron but he is far more superior to the likes of Chris Grayling and certainly the backstabber Boris Johnson,the latter Johnson, not really fighting on the EU but rather to hopefully build up his base to oust him after an exit vote from the EU result.
I also believe Cameron has done his best to get a fair deal for the UK in his negotiations and that he could be possibly the one to get even more if his position was strengthened after an in victory.

I firmly believe had David Cameron come down on the 'out' side, fifty faced Johnson would then have joined the 'in' side.

You are right too however, as to the long term effects of this decision,for the future of the whole UK and the future generations of the UK too, not just us personally.

At least you will be making a decision on the whole picture, not just the bits you like or really dislike.
I admire that.

[Ammi]

..I adore Eddie Izzard and great to see him so involved in encouraging young votes..:lovedup:..it's a bit of a long watch I have to say... but there are some great points and thoughts/opinions... and very much in Eddie's uncomplicated way of looking at stuff...


dU7zJVqWLEc

[DemolitionRed]

What we have to understand is, a lot of people have zero interest in politics other than what directly affects them. Opinions differ on the condition of the UK based on what newspaper they read. If they read the Daily Mail they likely are just a tincy bit racist (you wouldn’t be able to handle that paper if you weren’t) and so voting ‘out’ is a simple decision. If they read The Mirror or The Morning Star, you are more likely to vote ‘in’ but their views will be conflicting because whilst they don’t want to support conservative Cameron they do want to support the Green party and the Labour party.

I’m a left wing thinker. The newspapers I read are Centre left and I’m one of those who, for a long time, had conflicting views and therefore remained undecided. It was only when I politically dug deeper that I reached a decision but I fully accept the majority won’t be doing that.

If 30 percent vote ‘out’ and percent vote ‘in’, of the remaining 40 percent, half probably won’t bother voting and the other half will walk into their poling station thinking they’ve made a decision but change their mind at the last moment. I think they will choose the safe path and vote ‘in’

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/03/10/34E0954000000578-3623371-image-a-3_1464944588936.jpg
The PM staying busy on GMBHD today

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3623371/A-defiant-David-Cameron-claims-leaving-EU-terrible-way-cut-immigration-morning-savaged-public-live-TV-waffling-scaremongering-Brexit.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/03/12/article-3623371-34E2BAAE00000578-76_964x416.jpg
Dave telling Kate To Shut Up
Kates Husband was the Labour Helper to Gordon Brown

[bots]

. I think they will choose the safe path and vote ‘in’

That says it all on so many levels. Its a fact that it is safer to vote in than out, because we will know exactly where we stand. Bear in mind we have politicians across the spectrum, that given an opportunity would shape a completely different world outside the EU depending on their political motives. So any points made in support of out are completely meaningless without knowing which political force is shaping the out of the EU world.

We have just had a decade of uncertainty, I don't think the average family has the stomach for anymore.

I had hoped for a more enlightening campaign from both sides of the argument, its been dreadful, really dreadful. I think on that basis the status quo will win the day.

[arista]

So many are now saying Vote Out

And amazing report that some Labour Voters
are not going to Vote or Vote Out
just to get rid of Cameron etc?

[joeysteele]

So many are now saying Vote Out

And amazing report that some Labour Voters
are not going to Vote or Vote Out
just to get rid of Cameron etc?

I haven't found that with many Labour voters, many Labour voters however have always been and remain less than enthusiastic towards the EU.

Labour voters also know full well getting rid of Cameron will only pave the way for even worse, namely Boris Johnson, and I don't know of one Labour connected individual who wants Boris Johnson as a Prime Minister.

I for sure do not and I further consider anyone voting out just to try to get rid of Cameron, as a truly pathetic way of deciding how to vote in this referendum.

[Kazanne]

Good for you and yes I have oddly enough come cross people saying they are voting out because that will get rid of Cameron quicker.

I am no fan of David Cameron but he is far more superior to the likes of Chris Grayling and certainly the backstabber Boris Johnson,the latter Johnson, not really fighting on the EU but rather to hopefully build up his base to oust him after an exit vote from the EU result.
I also believe Cameron has done his best to get a fair deal for the UK in his negotiations and that he could be possibly the one to get even more if his position was strengthened after an in victory.

I firmly believe had David Cameron come down on the 'out' side, fifty faced Johnson would then have joined the 'in' side.

You are right too however, as to the long term effects of this decision,for the future of the whole UK and the future generations of the UK too, not just us personally.

At least you will be making a decision on the whole picture, not just the bits you like or really dislike.
I admire that.

Have to say Joey with friends like Boris who needs enemies and I also think he would have wanted to stay in if Cameron had wanted to go out,I am quite shocked at him as I always thought he was an ok bloke,just shows you doesn't it ? at least with Cameron what you see is what you get,like him or hate him I do think he is trying his best on the EU.

[joeysteele]

Have to say Joey with friends like Boris who needs enemies and I also think he would have wanted to stay in if Cameron had wanted to go out,I am quite shocked at him as I always thought he was an ok bloke,just shows you doesn't it ? at least with Cameron what you see is what you get,like him or hate him I do think he is trying his best on the EU.

He did do his best,and still is as to the EU,he was wise not to ask for too much and therefore be ridiculed even more if that failed.

He also has opened the door to possibly more reform in the EU and oddly enough, in my view, he himself could gain greater status for the UK in the EU, were he to win this referendum with a 'remain' vote.

The EU Nations and hierarchy will be more likely to listen to Cameron in my view after that,much more than any of the shower on the 'out' side.
Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling,the awful Theresa Villiers and then let's start on the Labour ones, Frank Field, who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him and the truly pathetic Kate Hoey.
What an unsavoury bunch.

However I think David Cameron realises, this is now becoming a fight for his own survival too.
He will be gone,I am sure of that, if the result is a leave vote.
Some on the 'out' side are now even saying if the result is a narrow win to remain, then David Cameron may still have to go.
What a kick in the teeth.

The 'leave' campaign, as to some on the Conservative side, has now become nothing more than a get a 'leave' result to oust the Prime Minister,probably led by Boris Johnson and that is a really ugly sight for me.

I will take Cameron any day to Boris or any of the other Conservative 'out' candidates for the rest of this Parliament.
Because at the very least on the EU issue, I trust Cameron far more and despite some of his wilder claims as to dangers of out, he is 100% right, that leaving will harm the economy of the UK,for an unknown period.

An economy as to protecting it and making it strong, which is now surprisingly, it seems, of little concern whatsoever to those Conservatives who once rated the economy first and foremost as vital not to ne endangered in any way..

How times change, once personal ambition takes over,remember Boris Johnson promised he would never seek re-election to Westminster until he had completed in full his term as London Mayor.
Then he saw it looked like David Cameron could fail to win an overall majority last year so abandoned that promise and wion a seat in May 2015.
Of course he was thwarted when Cameron got an overall majority.

So he has waited for this EU referendum in my view and chose to go on the opposite side of the PM,to the surprise of a great many too when choosing to back the out campaign.
He has in effect led the campaign too for 'out'.
What a creep, and as you say with so called friends like Boris who needs enemies.

Furthermore with Boris as PM, no way can I see the EU Nations rushing to make anything easier for the UK, if it votes to leave, and then if the Conservatives put that backstabber in as PM too.

[_Tom_]

Where do you stand on the EU? Find out with the Eurometer.

eurometer.news.sky.com

[DemolitionRed]

Where do you stand on the EU? Find out with the Eurometer.

eurometer.news.sky.com

Im a progressive cosmopolitan! and 95% of progressive cosmopolitans are voting to remain in.

[Kizzy]

Oooh I want to be one of those! tres chic :)

[Kizzy]

Europhiles tend to define themselves as much by their sense of belonging to Europe as to the United Kingdom. They generally see their identities less as a matter of ancestry or culture than as a set of common ideals and values which are shared by all Europeans. They are, on average, the most enthusiastic supporters in the UK of an ever closer union among European nations.

Europhiles are the most likely of any group to support further integration with the EU. They believe in establishing a level playing field among member countries and that clubbing together brings all EU members greater influence on the world stage. They are generally supportive of the role the EU plays in governing British affairs and tend to believe that the EU strengthens democracy in the UK.

Europhiles are enthusiastic supporters of diversity who welcome immigration and embrace multiculturalism. They are generally supportive of migrants from other countries within the EU who choose to make their lives in the UK. They believe that the UK should accommodate cultural differences.

Europhiles largely view the EU as a positive economic influence on the UK. They tend to perceive of the EU as having improved international trade as well as job prospects in the UK. They are broadly supportive of the EU’s expansion and, while not overly enthusiastic about admitting new members, are more supportive of the idea than most people in the UK.

Europhiles overwhelmingly support remaining in the EU.

[DemolitionRed]

Oooh I want to be one of those! tres chic :)

I wonder how many people came up as 'nationalist' :hehe:

[joeysteele]

Europhiles tend to define themselves as much by their sense of belonging to Europe as to the United Kingdom. They generally see their identities less as a matter of ancestry or culture than as a set of common ideals and values which are shared by all Europeans. They are, on average, the most enthusiastic supporters in the UK of an ever closer union among European nations.

Europhiles are the most likely of any group to support further integration with the EU. They believe in establishing a level playing field among member countries and that clubbing together brings all EU members greater influence on the world stage. They are generally supportive of the role the EU plays in governing British affairs and tend to believe that the EU strengthens democracy in the UK.

Europhiles are enthusiastic supporters of diversity who welcome immigration and embrace multiculturalism. They are generally supportive of migrants from other countries within the EU who choose to make their lives in the UK. They believe that the UK should accommodate cultural differences.

Europhiles largely view the EU as a positive economic influence on the UK. They tend to perceive of the EU as having improved international trade as well as job prospects in the UK. They are broadly supportive of the EU’s expansion and, while not overly enthusiastic about admitting new members, are more supportive of the idea than most people in the UK.

Europhiles overwhelmingly support remaining in the EU.


Did you come up as Europhile too, I did,not unexpectedly for me at all.

I would actually lean to trusting Europe more than our own govts,especially the examples of the last 3 at least.

The last 2 Labour ones 2001 to 2010, the coalition from 2010 to 2015 and now even moreso this present one.

[Northern Monkey]

Traditionalists cherish what they see as the customary way of life in the United Kingdom, which they consider to be markedly different from that of continental Europe. Although Traditionalists hold generally unfavourable views of the European Union, they are less hardline than the most fervent Eurosceptics.

Traditionalists’ contempt for the EU is most pronounced when it comes to the perception that laws made in Brussels take precedence over those made at Westminister. But Traditionalists take slightly more moderate positions than other Eurosceptics when it comes to immigration and the economic implications of being in the EU.

Traditionalists are more likely than other Eurosceptics to see certain benefits to the UK economy from free trade within the EU. But they still blame part of the UK’s recent economic troubles on EU policies.

While a minority of Traditionalists favour remaining in the EU, the majority will vote to leave in the upcoming referendum.

[Cherie]

Im a progressive cosmopolitan! and 95% of progressive cosmopolitans are voting to remain in.

Are you still voting out or have you changed your mind?

[bots]

Utilitarian
Along with 18% of the UK
Utilitarians tend to have a strong sense of attachment to their country and their community. Europe is still important to Utilitarians, but their first allegiance is almost always to the United Kingdom.

Utilitarians tend to be satisfied with the role and function of the European Union as long as it appears to benefit the UK. Most Utilitarians broadly think the EU has improved the UK’s national security and has by and large benefitted the British economy.

Utilitarians are often wary of EU regulations on British industry and what they see as Brussels interfering in UK affairs. They generally oppose the further expansion of the EU except where there might be an economic benefit.

Utilitarians are generally open to greater cultural diversity in the UK and support moderate levels of migration from within the EU. They expect that immigrants will abide by the laws and customs of the UK and think that the UK should only admit as many immigrants as the economy can reasonably support.

While Utilitarians tend to be sceptical about the EU overall, they prefer stability to the perceived risks of Brexit, so the majority will vote to remain in the EU.

[Alf]

I wonder how many people came up as 'nationalist' :hehe:Well, me for a kick off.

[Northern Monkey]

Traditionalist was also 18% of the UK.Would be interesting to see all the percentages.So we have -
Utilitarian 18%
Traditionalist 18%

What percentages were Europhile and Nationalist?

[Kizzy]

I hate the term 'Europhile' it sounds wrong :(

[Cherie]

Utilitarian
Along with 18% of the UK
Utilitarians tend to have a strong sense of attachment to their country and their community. Europe is still important to Utilitarians, but their first allegiance is almost always to the United Kingdom.

Utilitarians tend to be satisfied with the role and function of the European Union as long as it appears to benefit the UK. Most Utilitarians broadly think the EU has improved the UK’s national security and has by and large benefitted the British economy.

Utilitarians are often wary of EU regulations on British industry and what they see as Brussels interfering in UK affairs. They generally oppose the further expansion of the EU except where there might be an economic benefit.


Utilitarians are generally open to greater cultural diversity in the UK and support moderate levels of migration from within the EU. They expect that immigrants will abide by the laws and customs of the UK and think that the UK should only admit as many immigrants as the economy can reasonably support.

While Utilitarians tend to be sceptical about the EU overall, they prefer stability to the perceived risks of Brexit, so the majority will vote to remain in the EU.


I got this

[DemolitionRed]

Are you still voting out or have you changed your mind?

Im one of the 5 percent of cosmopolitans that's voting out.

[DemolitionRed]

Utilitarian
Along with 18% of the UK
Utilitarians tend to have a strong sense of attachment to their country and their community. Europe is still important to Utilitarians, but their first allegiance is almost always to the United Kingdom.

Utilitarians tend to be satisfied with the role and function of the European Union as long as it appears to benefit the UK. Most Utilitarians broadly think the EU has improved the UK’s national security and has by and large benefitted the British economy.

Utilitarians are often wary of EU regulations on British industry and what they see as Brussels interfering in UK affairs. They generally oppose the further expansion of the EU except where there might be an economic benefit.

Utilitarians are generally open to greater cultural diversity in the UK and support moderate levels of migration from within the EU. They expect that immigrants will abide by the laws and customs of the UK and think that the UK should only admit as many immigrants as the economy can reasonably support.

While Utilitarians tend to be sceptical about the EU overall, they prefer stability to the perceived risks of Brexit, so the majority will vote to remain in the EU.

My next nearest thing was 'utilitarian'

[_Tom_]

YOUR CLOSEST FIT
Nationalist
Along with 20% of the UK

Nationalists tend to take great pride in the traditions and values of the United Kingdom. They generally think British culture occupies a distinguished position on the global stage. These views mean Nationalists largely want to preserve that culture, and they commonly consider foreign influence as a threat to the national identity and character of the UK.

On average, Nationalists are the group that is most opposed to the European Union. Nationalists largely reject links between the UK and continental Europe, and think the EU is damaging to the social and economic prospects of the UK.

Nationalists also tend to feel that the EU has imposed a culture of political correctness on the UK, which has infringed on their personal freedoms and liberties. They think the EU has foisted liberal migration policies on the UK, resulting in a large influx of foreigners. Nationalists generally have negative views of those immigrants, tending to think that they exploit the nation’s wealth while being unable or unwilling to integrate into British society.

On the economy, Nationalists view the EU as mired in bureaucracy and as a drain on the UK’s resources. They tend to think that the economic policies of the EU have harmed the UK’s prosperity. They generally oppose the EU’s expansion, particularly the admission of countries with relatively weak economies.

Unsurprisingly given their general views of the EU, Nationalists are the group most likely to vote to leave in the upcoming referendum.

oop

[RichardG]

YOUR CLOSEST FIT
Disenfranchised
Along with 10% of the UK
The Disenfranchised often feel alienated by government. They tend to doubt how much ordinary people are listened to by their elected representatives, whether at Westminster or in Brussels. They are the most split of any group when it comes to the European Union.

The Disenfranchised are generally critical of the European Union. While they think the EU has benefitted the UK economy in some ways, they feel that the gains have gone mostly to elites. They tend to believe that EU regulations have hampered British business and contributed to flat wages in some areas.

Although The Disenfranchised are generally happy with the principle of cultural diversity within the UK, they think the EU’s migration policies have contributed to poor job prospects for certain sections of British society.

Despite their reservations, many among The Disenfranchised are reluctant to support a total withdrawal from the EU. Though sceptical about the overall benefits of staying in, they are generally worried about the political and economic implications of Brexit. That uncertainty means many of The Disenfranchised would rather leave things as they are.

The Disenfranchised are the most divided group when it comes to how they intend to vote in the referendum. They also include the highest proportion of undecided voters.

[MTVN]

Europhile

Along with 9% of the UK

Europhiles tend to define themselves as much by their sense of belonging to Europe as to the United Kingdom. They generally see their identities less as a matter of ancestry or culture than as a set of common ideals and values which are shared by all Europeans. They are, on average, the most enthusiastic supporters in the UK of an ever closer union among European nations. Read more...

Makes sense. I've never felt as sure of anything in politics as I do about a Remain vote. I've agonised over party membership and general elections but not this

[MTVN]

Also I do actually feel quite European, I love being able to travel anywhere else in the EU so easily and feeling like there is a shared purpose there even while we retain our own nationalities

[Black Dagger]

Where do you stand on the EU? Find out with the Eurometer.

eurometer.news.sky.com

Did this on my tablet earlier so forgot to save the paragraph and what not but I got cosmopolitan! Along with 17% and we're all for remaining in the EU, which made sense bc I was leaning that way anyway.

[MTVN]

The neo-Nazi with a swastika on her breast... and Vote Leave badge on her vest: From Holocaust deniers to EDL fascists posing at the Kray twins' grave, the violent thugs and racists hijacking the Brexit campaign

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3625503/The-neo-Nazi-swastika-breast-Vote-Leave-badge-vest-Holocaust-deniers-EDL-fascists-posing-Kray-twins-grave-violent-thugs-racists-hijacking-Brexit-campaign.html#ixzz4AePK3YKz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I sure wouldn't want to be associated with these guys

[Northern Monkey]

Utilitarian 18%
Traditionalist 18%
Cosmopolitan 17%
Disenfranchised 10%
Europhile 9%

Wonder what percent neo-nazi is?:laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

It's funny whenever i go to Europe i never feel like part of it.I think it's the language barrier although alot of Europeans do speak abit of English.I did get friendly with a group of Germans when i was in Latvia though and we all stuck together because there were gangs of Albanians going around robbing people.We played table football England v Germany and got very drunk.:laugh:
Germans are very much like us in my experience.Love to get pissed and have a similar sense of humour.

[_Tom_]

Utilitarian 18%
Traditionalist 18%
Cosmopolitan 17%
Disenfranchised 10%
Europhile 9%

Wonder what percent neo-nazi is?:laugh:

Nationalist 20%
Sceptic ?%

[Northern Monkey]

Utilitarian 18%
Traditionalist 18%
Cosmopolitan 17%
Disenfranchised 10%
Europhile 9%
Nationalist 20%
Skeptic 8%

[joeysteele]

Also I do actually feel quite European, I love being able to travel anywhere else in the EU so easily and feeling like there is a shared purpose there even while we retain our own nationalities

Ditto for me as to this too.

[_Tom_]

The only other category is Sceptic, which I would guess is 8%?

[bots]

looking at the latest poll of polls it has:

remain 44% no change
leave 45% up 7
undecided 12% down 6

[Kizzy]

My guess is like Scotland many will bleat on about leaving then get cold feet and choose remain.

[Northern Monkey]

The only other category is Sceptic, which I would guess is 8%?

Yeah you're right,it has to be.

[Alf]

Also I do actually feel quite European, I love being able to travel anywhere else in the EU so easily and feeling like there is a shared purpose there even while we retain our own nationalities
I'm sure you're a very sensible non violent person, but it's not just easy for you to travel, it's also easy for criminals to travel.

[bots]

Former PM Sir John Major has said he is "angry about the way the British people are being misled" by the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union.

He told Andrew Marr he feared people would vote to leave on the basis of information "known to be incorrect".

He highlighted claims by Leave figures Boris Johnson and Michael Gove that the UK sent £350m a week to the EU as an example of "deceit".

Mr Johnson stood by the figure and urged an end to "blue-on-blue action".
Follow the latest developments on our live page

In his most outspoken intervention to date in the referendum debate, Sir John insisted he was not personally attacking fellow Conservatives Mr Johnson and Mr Gove but he accused them of running a campaign that was "verging on the squalid".

And he described former London mayor Mr Johnson as a "court jester," who he suggested might not have the loyalty of Conservative MPs if he became party leader.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36454732

[arista]

looking at the latest poll of polls it has:

remain 44% no change
leave 45% up 7
undecided 12% down 6


How Nice

[Kizzy]

I'm sure you're a very sensible non violent person, but it's not just easy for you to travel, it's also easy for criminals to travel.

Which is why we have the European arrest warrant, which will go if we vote out. It won't stop criminals from Europe coming or going between European countries however.

[joeysteele]

Which is why we have the European arrest warrant, which will go if we vote out. It won't stop criminals from Europe coming or going between European countries however.

That is true to Kizzy.

As to Sir John Major he spoke really passionately this morning and in my view sadly is right as to some of those on the 'leave' side.

His scathing attack on Michael Gove,Ian Duncan Smith and also Boris Johnson as to their own 'real' thinking as to the NHS and them then daring to bring the NHS into the play of this referendum, was priceless.

If Labour does get their act together,the former Conservative PM has given them loads of ammunition for election posters.

[joeysteele]

How Nice

That's a reliable poll, it adds up to 101%

[Cherie]

That's a reliable poll, it adds up to 101%

:laugh2: well spotted Joey

[bots]

That's a reliable poll, it adds up to 101%

blame the BBC poll of polls :fist: haha

I think we can say that its going to be close, so we should all keep calm and VOTE :laugh:

[joeysteele]

blame the BBC poll of polls :fist: haha

I think we can say that its going to be close, so we should all keep calm and VOTE :laugh:

Agreed.

I do see a narrow win for to 'leave' coming about however, and then more chaos after that coming about likely across the UK.

I hope I am wrong in that prediction and enough who want to 'remain' make sure they do vote,I have no doubt just about all the 'leave' voters will ensure they do.

[the truth]

I prey to the Gods we brexit, I would literally cut my hand off to brexit it means that much to me. this is our last chance to exit a post apocalyptic corporate takeover that will enslave us and our governments to corporations FOREVER. it really is defcon . only this week they've in effect finished taxi work for the working millions forever. they've wiped out greengrocers, butchers, toolmakers, milkmen , newsagents, farmers, fishermen, steelmakers, coalmen, you name it and they've either totally taken over an industry or destroyed it for their own insatiable untaxable greed. uber don't pay vat because theyre supposedly dutch even though they have 40,000 cars in the uk...that's yet another 20% advantage the European union gives them...the open borders is simply to drive down wages, they don't give a damn about terrorism, its LL ABOUT THEIR PROFIT WHICH IS THEN EXPORTED TO TAX FREE HAVENS.. its so corrupt it makes eye eyes bulge.....WAKE THE HELL UP BRITONS WE ARE SLEEPWALKING INTO A NIGHTMARE

[DemolitionRed]

I'm sure you're a very sensible non violent person, but it's not just easy for you to travel, it's also easy for criminals to travel.

Its okay, the rest of Europe are well aware about British football hooligans. They are armed and ready for us.

[Wizard.]

I got 'Traditionalist' which I can live with and I'm voting to leave but fuqing Ellie Goulding can piss off telling her 15 year old fans to vote remain ffs

[_Tom_]

I got 'Traditionalist' which I can live with and I'm voting to leave but fuqing Ellie Goulding can piss off telling her 15 year old fans to vote remain ffs

Boycott Keep On Dancin'.

[reece(:]

I got 'Traditionalist' which I can live with and I'm voting to leave but fuqing Ellie Goulding can piss off telling her 15 year old fans to vote remain ffs

Legend Ellie:clap1:

[_Tom_]

On Wednesday I spoke to 50 people,in a street and campaigning at their doors, I was stunned, as were those with me, that 27 of them said they were sick of hearing about this referendum,were more confused than ever before, and now had no interest in it whatsoever.

What a disgrace and a shameful thing to be the result of this referendum in my view.

I'm not surprised by that at all Joey. I'm voting Leave but I myself am sick to death now of all the news coverage and the sniping by both sides. I've even avoided the news for weeks because I'm simply tired of hearing about it.

[joeysteele]

I'm not surprised by that at all Joey. I'm voting Leave but I myself am sick to death now of all the news coverage and the sniping by both sides. I've even avoided the news for weeks because I'm simply tired of hearing about it.

It has become a disgraceful shambles in my view Tom,I didn't really expect it to be a good exercise but how undecided voters are left feeling at the nonsense rather than real 'true' information they are getting from both sides should be and is appalling.

The media too,who actually had a good opportunity to be the outlet to really inform and help the voters on this.
Sadly are totally pre-occupied with a likely leadership challenge in the Conservative party,then also as to why Jeremy Corbyn is not here ,there and everywhere and finally treating the whole thing as another almost general election campaign rather than a referendum.

I love politics, I would love to be a MP someday but I am left really squirming and ashamed at the absolute mess that has been made of this whole exercise.

So much so now, when I come across someone who says what you have just said as to avoiding it and people saying they are sick to death of the whole thing,my response now is ''I Don't blame you at all as to that''.

It will likely leave a great many not bothering to vote at all and for the way peoples concerns have been ignored on this,all Parties and near all MPs involved too,should hang their heads in shame after this ridiculous spectacle is finally over, whatever the result.

[_Tom_]

If you haven't yet seen Brexit: The Movie it's an absolute must watch for every voter - a proper eye opener! Full of strong and interesting economic facts and doesn't have to mention borders once.

UTMxfAkxfQ0

[bots]

It has become a disgraceful shambles in my view Tom,I didn't really expect it to be a good exercise but how undecided voters are left feeling at the nonsense rather than real 'true' information they are getting from both sides should be and is appalling.

The media too,who actually had a good opportunity to be the outlet to really inform and help the voters on this.
Sadly are totally pre-occupied with a likely leadership challenge in the Conservative party,then also as to why Jeremy Corbyn is not here ,there and everywhere and finally treating the whole thing as another almost general election campaign rather than a referendum.

I love politics, I would love to be a MP someday but I am left really squirming and ashamed at the absolute mess that has been made of this whole exercise.

So much so now, when I come across someone who says what you have just said as to avoiding it and people saying they are sick to death of the whole thing,my response now is ''I Don't blame you at all as to that''.

It will likely leave a great many not bothering to vote at all and for the way peoples concerns have been ignored on this,all Parties and near all MPs involved too,should hang their heads in shame after this ridiculous spectacle is finally over, whatever the result.

what I found interesting was David C basically saying that the words of the opposing Tories could not be trusted. If that's the case, what does that say for the future of the party. Labour will just quote that once Dave goes :laugh: It truly is a shambles and does nothing to improve our trust in any of them

[DemolitionRed]

what I found interesting was David C basically saying that the words of the opposing Tories could not be trusted. If that's the case, what does that say for the future of the party. Labour will just quote that once Dave goes :laugh: It truly is a shambles and does nothing to improve our trust in any of them

The Conservative party has chosen the wrong path, one leading to its demise. Now marginalized beyond salvation after countless public in-fights, each more appalling than the next in desperation to maintain power.

[DemolitionRed]

In the end the Conservative party has irreversibly debased itself and as a consequence our government looks like nothing more than a shambles.

Will they recover from this?

I hope not.

[joeysteele]

That is a strong film only looking at the out positives,not examining the negatives but a very interesting film none-the-less.

I am pro the EU, have spoken to loads of people, who voted no in 1975 who will now be voting remain on the 23rd June,my own parents are 2 of them.
Likewise, I have spoken to loads of people too who voted yes in 1975 and who will now be voting leave this time.

I could have even been persuaded myself to vote leave if instead of the nonsense we have had from both sides, more substantiated facts had emerged.
Such as when the leave side says we can have a trade deal with the EU,although now they are advocating leaving the single market which was still an option to stay in for them before.

Had they any EU member Nation who was saying certainly,if the UK leaves they will get the best possible deal in the circumstances and quickly too.
Also if any EU member Nation had even said it would be possible to remain part of the single market and not have the condition of the free movement of EU citizens,then I would have paid more heed to them.
None of that happened and I really do not believe whoever in the end goes for the negotiation of any trading deal,that in the end, they will not want to remain part of the single market and I still believe even if out the EU,the UK will have to accept that free movement.
Already 2 Nations Germany and Spain have indicated just that.

Plus again, had the leave campaign been able to get any Nations like Australia,China,India and the USA,to say that they would certainly look to give the Uk good trading deals and certainly up any trading we do with them now,if the Uk left the EU.
Then again I would further have a great deal more interest in the leave argument.

However again as to that,not one Nation anywhere in the rest of the World has said such.
In fact all those Nations are saying we should remain in the EU.
I do think we need to look at immigration but I do not believe leaving will be the success as to that,which the leave side is claiming.

They are jumping the gun in my view, and already we have MPs who really believe leaving the single market would be a disaster for the UK, and they number over 400 in Westminster saying they could likely reject any deal that takes us out of the single market.
Now the leave side said today, that would be going against the wishes of the voters.
Not so, we are only being asked in this referendum,to say if we should remain a full member of the EU or leave,nothing else is on the ballot paper.

Any deal will have to be negotiated with the EU Nations, they may come back in time with 2 choices of deals, one still in the single market, one out of it.
Any single deal could be open to amendments or a whole new proposal as to further negotiations.
All of that however will only be decided by MPs of all Parties in Parliament, the deal, or choice of deals,will not be put to voters in a referendum again.

So I can see after all this, a deal where we remain in the single market with the condition of free movement of EU citizens.
A few other likely administrative costs and then of course no other funding sent to the EU from the UK.
However we would retain the vast benefits of being in the single market without being a full member but still unable to not accept the free movement of EU citizens.

Those are the reasons in part why I see this as a risk not worthy of taking, that's only my view, I respect the views and commitment of those advocating leave.

Is the upheaval worth it, in my view no.
Will even the leave side end up disappointed with the final deal negotiated and accepted by MPs in Parliament in the end, I think yes they will, as the cornerstone of their whole battle, to stop the free movement of EU citizens, I personally do not think, in or out,will change.

Just my view but I cannot see the present govt and parliament across the board, accepting any deal that will see the UK out of the single market,(and I firmly want to see the UK in the single market myself),and I cannot see the EU giving the UK any deal that keeps us in the single market without the UK accepting the free movement of EU citizens.

I have not heard anything to say that will not be the case and once out, all we will gain is that £165million weekly,which I fear could be easily whittled away very quickly on probably next to nothing things by whichever govt may be in power,

I enjoyed the film above, also however I would also equally enjoy a film on the benefits of the European Union too.

I am not a separatist,I prefer people and Nations to come together when the chance is there to do so.
So for me the status quo from my perspective looks far more appealing to me,than almost taking a leap into the dark.

What happens in the end happens but good luck and my sympathy to those many undecided voters who are just being more and more confused.

Those who wish to leave or remain,please however use your vote.
On this massive issue for the whole UK,which is not only for us as individuals but for the UKs future generations too.

[joeysteele]

In the end the Conservative party has irreversibly debased itself and as a consequence our government looks like nothing more than a shambles.

Will they recover from this?

I hope not.

The Conservative Party is a formidable machine and loves power so will find a way to come together.
However that could take time and a messy overthrow of Cameron after a leave result, could see divisions remain for some time.

I am oddly not sure the Party I support, Labour, either has the will or people in the top team to capitalise on that and that is a worry.

[DemolitionRed]

The Conservative Party is a formidable machine and loves power so will find a way to come together.
However that could take time and a messy overthrow of Cameron after a leave result, could see divisions remain for some time.

I am oddly not sure my Party Labour either has the will or people in the top team to capitalise on that and that is a worry.

None of us are sure of anything right now Joey.

I’m an out voter but that doesn’t make me an EU hater. The EU have been a powerful force for many good things and without it, this country is going to be put through some profound changes. I believe Cameron’s ‘chicken Licken’ act holds some weight; none of us know the economic facts and consequences of leaving the EU; we’d have to be small minded to believe its not going to be tough and its not going to affect every last one of us.

TTIP is about to hit the EU like a juggernaut. Americas corrupt ideologies are going to become a part of European social justice and whilst the far right, namely Boris, will try and drive Britain back towards that extreme, the majority of Brits are democrats who won’t allow Britain to be compromised by these corporate sharks.

I have left my sentiments about the EU throughout this thread. I sat on the fence for ages and watched both camps squabble to the point of tedium. Whichever way we vote, it’s a gamble but one things for sure, the EU’s neoliberal capitalist ideologies have allowed for an undisputed rising inequality, an underperforming economy and the demolition of our social structure and unless some radical movement takes place, this ghastly mess is only going to get worse

[joeysteele]

None of us are sure of anything right now Joey.

I’m an out voter but that doesn’t make me an EU hater. The EU have been a powerful force for many good things and without it, this country is going to be put through some profound changes. I believe Cameron’s ‘chicken Licken’ act holds some weight; none of us know the economic facts and consequences of leaving the EU; we’d have to be small minded to believe its not going to be tough and its not going to affect every last one of us.

TTIP is about to hit the EU like a juggernaut. Americas corrupt ideologies are going to become a part of European social justice and whilst the far right, namely Boris, will try and drive Britain back towards that extreme, the majority of Brits are democrats who won’t allow Britain to be compromised by these corporate sharks.

I have left my sentiments about the EU throughout this thread. I sat on the fence for ages and watched both camps squabble to the point of tedium. Whichever way we vote, it’s a gamble but one things for sure, the EU’s neoliberal capitalist ideologies have allowed for an undisputed rising inequality, an underperforming economy and the demolition of our social structure and unless some radical movement takes place, this ghastly mess is only going to get worse




Hi DemRed.
Good points and I respect your view although opposite to you as to my view of the ongoing EU,I believe reform is possible and I believe David Cameron may have started that process off to be fair to him.
Not rapid reform but I do think change is on the way for the better within the EU.

TTIP is not an issue for me as in its present incomplete form it is dead in the water as to the EU, as most EU Nations now would never ratify it and they all have to, all 27 Nations in the EU and 28 if we stay.

However looking at TTIP, if the EU will drag their heels and hold up a deal with the USA,now likely to ne rejected by them too,then what chance have we after leaving to be able to demand the best for us from them.

Good points but I do really feel the scenario at the end of your post are things that will likely happen equally if we leave the EU too rather than remain in it.

[bots]

I won't be watching any debates. I've made my mind up, I will be voting to remain, and hoping that Boris and co have ruined their future political ambitions. In this particular issue, we know Cameron has conviction. He has nothing to lose as he is standing down anyway.

[DemolitionRed]

Hi DemRed.
Good points and I respect your view although opposite to you as to my view of the ongoing EU,I believe reform is possible and I believe David Cameron may have started that process off to be fair to him.
Not rapid reform but I do think change is on the way for the better within the EU.

TTIP is not an issue for me as in its present incomplete form it is dead in the water as to the EU, as most EU Nations now would never ratify it and they all have to, all 27 Nations in the EU and 28 if we stay.

However looking at TTIP, if the EU will drag their heels and hold up a deal with the USA,now likely to ne rejected by them too,then what chance have we after leaving to be able to demand the best for us from them.

Good points but I do really feel the scenario at the end of your post are things that will likely happen equally if we leave the EU too rather than remain in it.

TTIP is one of many deals that’s inspired the neoliberal movement, it has smaller sisters that are equally frightening. Have you heard of ‘CETA’? well that’s already been signed by the British Government and because its been signed for, us, Joe public, are allowed to browse through its 1,500 pages and believe me, if you care to look, you’re not going to be happy with what you see.

The word ‘trade’ is such a misleading word but one that had us all fooled when they signed the CETA deal. Its much more than being able to export and import our products, its removes government rights to control the financial market and allows destructive fossil fuels to be used across Europe but the most troubling agreement is that CETA can legally stop governments buying back public services, which means Corbyn can’t legally buy back public transport.

Cameron is a staunch supporter of TTIP and all its seriously dangerous offshoots; in fact he’s the man at the forefront of the EU pushing all countries to sign these deals. He’s not a man of the people, he’s an aggressive business man who allows great wealth to flow between the few at the expense of his citizens.

Whilst I fully respect your opinion Joey and agree with much of what you say,
I’m not prepared to sit back and accept it may never happen because it is happening and it has to stop.


The more I learn about these so called ‘trade deals’ the more it feels like we are living in the Matrix.

[the truth]

I won't be watching any debates. I've made my mind up, I will be voting to remain, and hoping that Boris and co have ruined their future political ambitions. In this particular issue, we know Cameron has conviction. He has nothing to lose as he is standing down anyway.

lol yes thats the spirit close ears, learn nothing nw, such an open mind , not

[the truth]

TTIP is one of many deals that’s inspired the neoliberal movement, it has smaller sisters that are equally frightening. Have you heard of ‘CETA’? well that’s already been signed by the British Government and because its been signed for, us, Joe public, are allowed to browse through its 1,500 pages and believe me, if you care to look, you’re not going to be happy with what you see.

The word ‘trade’ is such a misleading word but one that had us all fooled when they signed the CETA deal. Its much more than being able to export and import our products, its removes government rights to control the financial market and allows destructive fossil fuels to be used across Europe but the most troubling agreement is that CETA can legally stop governments buying back public services, which means Corbyn can’t legally buy back public transport.

Cameron is a staunch supporter of TTIP and all its seriously dangerous offshoots; in fact he’s the man at the forefront of the EU pushing all countries to sign these deals. He’s not a man of the people, he’s an aggressive business man who allows great wealth to flow between the few at the expense of his citizens.

Whilst I fully respect your opinion Joey and agree with much of what you say,
I’m not prepared to sit back and accept it may never happen because it is happening and it has to stop.


The more I learn about these so called ‘trade deals’ the more it feels like we are living in the Matrix.

totally agree. cameron is evil like tony blair a total fraud
ttip is the biggest threat to the planet like all these corrupt phone corporate takeovers...the eu commission is equally corrupt and is allowing corporations to march through europe. only last week the eu commission chairman announced if any government tried to limit ubers powers they would be sued.


uber absolutely stinks, they are not regulated like all taxi firms, neither are their drivers , they do not pay local authorities like all other taxi firms, they do not have the same meters as all other taxi firms, they are not insured like all other taxi firms, their drivers do not have the same criminal checks, they do not have the knowledge that all other taxi firms must have by law, they do not even tell customers how much they charge them until 3 days later....theyre funded by goldman sachs, google ventures, apple and other tax dodgers and of course the saudi arabians....and the eu commission has already clearly been bought off ...allegedly

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/uber-is-the-future-for-taxis-so-live-with-it-says-the-eu-34772543.html

The ride-hailing company's latest infusion of cash - a record $3.5bn from Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund last week

[bots]

lol yes thats the spirit close ears, learn nothing nw, such an open mind , not

Coming from the guy whose rhetoric on the EU shows he is so open to hearing new information .... not :laugh:

[joeysteele]

TTIP is one of many deals that’s inspired the neoliberal movement, it has smaller sisters that are equally frightening. Have you heard of ‘CETA’? well that’s already been signed by the British Government and because its been signed for, us, Joe public, are allowed to browse through its 1,500 pages and believe me, if you care to look, you’re not going to be happy with what you see.

The word ‘trade’ is such a misleading word but one that had us all fooled when they signed the CETA deal. Its much more than being able to export and import our products, its removes government rights to control the financial market and allows destructive fossil fuels to be used across Europe but the most troubling agreement is that CETA can legally stop governments buying back public services, which means Corbyn can’t legally buy back public transport.

Cameron is a staunch supporter of TTIP and all its seriously dangerous offshoots; in fact he’s the man at the forefront of the EU pushing all countries to sign these deals. He’s not a man of the people, he’s an aggressive business man who allows great wealth to flow between the few at the expense of his citizens.

Whilst I fully respect your opinion Joey and agree with much of what you say,
I’m not prepared to sit back and accept it may never happen because it is happening and it has to stop.


The more I learn about these so called ‘trade deals’ the more it feels like we are living in the Matrix.

I could actually more likely believe that some sort of a TTIP deal would be more likely to happen between a UK out of the EU in negotiation for more trade with the USA.

I am against TTIP, and no way can I see any remote prospect of it being agreed at all in its present ridiculous form, with 'all' the EU Nations.
For me, that is another good reason to remain.

However we will have to negotiate better and more trade with the likes of the USA if we leave, so equally who is to say that sort of deal with similar conditions, would not be expected by the USA from the UK for any better trading with the USA, out of the EU.

That's another chance and risk I will not be prepared to take.
One thing is definite for sure, the UK certainly will need the USA for one, once out of the EU and even moreso if out of the single market too.

The UK alone and open to all sorts of 'gentle persuasion' from the USA negotiators as to that too then.

[joeysteele]

I won't be watching any debates. I've made my mind up, I will be voting to remain, and hoping that Boris and co have ruined their future political ambitions. In this particular issue, we know Cameron has conviction. He has nothing to lose as he is standing down anyway.

This is one of the main reasons I do trust David Cameron on this issue but I do also think he is not getting the full credit he should, for what he has exempted the UK from in his negotiations with the EU earlier this year.

[DemolitionRed]

Its not just the TTIP though is it Joey. As I pointed out, there are little sister deals going on behind cloaked windows and those deals are pure lunacy for the normal guy in the street.

Obama's hasty visit to the UK was for good reason. This deal is his legacy and that’s why him and Cameron have been trying to push it forward at great speed. His threats of how America will treat us if we leave Europe said it all. The TTIP will fall apart without Britain’s signature. Cameron is America’s biggest ally when it comes to these ludicrous trade agreements.

The ‘In’ campaign are now telling us that the TTIP may still go ahead in Britain if we come out or that a similar deal would/could be made. Its fear mongering nonsense. The TTIP can not happen in Britain if we come out and any new leader with an ounce of common sense and morality isn’t going to put a stand alone Britain through something that could bankrupt it in a year.

[Northern Monkey]

Its not just the TTIP though is it Joey. As I pointed out, there are little sister deals going on behind cloaked windows and those deals are pure lunacy for the normal guy in the street.

Obama's hasty visit to the UK was for good reason. This deal is his legacy and that’s why him and Cameron have been trying to push it forward at great speed. His threats of how America will treat us if we leave Europe said it all. The TTIP will fall apart without Britain’s signature. Cameron is America’s biggest ally when it comes to these ludicrous trade agreements.

The ‘In’ campaign are now telling us that the TTIP may still go ahead in Britain if we come out or that a similar deal would/could be made. Its fear mongering nonsense. The TTIP can not happen in Britain if we come out and any new leader with an ounce of common sense and morality isn’t going to put a stand alone Britain through something that could bankrupt it in a year.Exactly.Atleast a UK government is accountable and can be removed by the British people.

[DemolitionRed]

Exactly.Atleast a UK government is accountable and can be removed by the British people.

Exactly and that single sentence is hugely relevant in this debate. A stand alone government is something Cameron won't be able to manage, but he's only got himself to blame for splitting the Conservatives and turning half a nation into eurosceptics. For years he’s blamed the European Union for stitching us up. He manufactured something that looked like his government was on the brink of war with EU. I mean, it was naughty Brussels who made him make all those heartless decisions wasn't it?. :conf:

He cried wolf once too often and we all know the ending to that fable

[joeysteele]

Its not just the TTIP though is it Joey. As I pointed out, there are little sister deals going on behind cloaked windows and those deals are pure lunacy for the normal guy in the street.

Obama's hasty visit to the UK was for good reason. This deal is his legacy and that’s why him and Cameron have been trying to push it forward at great speed. His threats of how America will treat us if we leave Europe said it all. The TTIP will fall apart without Britain’s signature. Cameron is America’s biggest ally when it comes to these ludicrous trade agreements.

The ‘In’ campaign are now telling us that the TTIP may still go ahead in Britain if we come out or that a similar deal would/could be made. Its fear mongering nonsense. The TTIP can not happen in Britain if we come out and any new leader with an ounce of common sense and morality isn’t going to put a stand alone Britain through something that could bankrupt it in a year.

I didn't say TTIP could go ahead in the UK if out, I said a deal similar could well be on the cards though.
It seems the USA is keen on TTIP deals and in fact the EU Nations are not, hence the protests across Europe to it and the now almost fact, the TTIP deal as it stands is a non starter in the EU.

That is for me the telling point, it seems other EU Nations are even ahead of our own govt against such deals,so for me staying in is the better way tog et them rejected.

You actually said earlier our present govts leadership was in favour of TTIP, why would you think out of the EU that this present govt may not then support some similarly based deal with the USA if we leave in order to increase trading with them.
That has to be another possibility.

The one thing I am sure is that Obama's visits to the UK and to Europe have not done a thing to halt the opposition to the TTIP deal across Europe,in fact his visits have seemingly strengthened the opposition to it in the EU Nations.
So no way in my view, can I now see 27 Nations ratifying a TTIP deal with the USA, even if the UK remained in and supported TTIP.

If we come out of the EU however, we will not then have those other 27 Nations to see off any, even smaller but similar, as to content, TTIP deals that the USA may expect the UK to accept for better and more trading directly with the USA.

For me, opposition to TTIP is far better served from within the EU than out.
Just my view but no way do I see 27 EU Nations ever agreeing to ratify any TTIP deal, or in fact any similar to it with the USA.
Not a chance,I'd put money on that.

[DemolitionRed]

I didn't say TTIP could go ahead in the UK if out, I said a deal similar could well be on the cards though.
It seems the USA is keen on TTIP deals and in fact the EU Nations are not, hence the protests across Europe to it and the now almost fact, the TTIP deal as it stands is a non starter in the EU.

That is for me the telling point, it seems other EU Nations are even ahead of our own govt against such deals,so for me staying in is the better way tog et them rejected.

You actually said earlier our present govts leadership was in favour of TTIP, why would you think out of the EU that this present govt may not then support some similarly based deal with the USA if we leave in order to increase trading with them.
That has to be another possibility.

The one thing I am sure is that Obama's visits to the UK and to Europe have not done a thing to halt the opposition to the TTIP deal across Europe,in fact his visits have seemingly strengthened the opposition to it in the EU Nations.
So no way in my view, can I now see 27 Nations ratifying a TTIP deal with the USA, even if the UK remained in and supported TTIP.

If we come out of the EU however, we will not then have those other 27 Nations to see off any, even smaller but similar, as to content, TTIP deals that the USA may expect the UK to accept for better and more trading directly with the USA.

For me, opposition to TTIP is far better served from within the EU than out.
Just my view but no way do I see 27 EU Nations ever agreeing to ratify any TTIP deal, or in fact any similar to it with the USA.
Not a chance,I'd put money on that.

The EU is just one huge trade agreement that wants to implement other trade agreements and because we don't know who runs the EU or even how many leaders the EU has and because we can't vote on that leadership, we, the people, don't get a choice on their decisions; in fact, half the time we don't even know they are making decisions in regard to how we are allowed to live. Its like a secret order that use Cameron, the talking head to be the bearer of bad news.

A stand alone Britain votes on its stand alone government and so the government has to pacify its citizens to stand any hope of getting elected.

[MTVN]

C'mon DR, you were voting Remain not long ago, then it was Leave all because of TTIP (a deal that - as Joey has pointed out at length - is nowhere near being finalised never mind being ratified by all 28 states), now you're pedalling the same lines as the Boris and Farage about this conspiracy of a 'secret order'

[joeysteele]

The EU is just one huge trade agreement that wants to implement other trade agreements and because we don't know who runs the EU or even how many leaders the EU has and because we can't vote on that leadership, we, the people, don't get a choice on their decisions; in fact, half the time we don't even know they are making decisions in regard to how we are allowed to live. Its like a secret order that use Cameron, the talking head to be the bearer of bad news.

A stand alone Britain votes on its stand alone government and so the government has to pacify its citizens to stand any hope of getting elected.

We do know for sure that any trading deals with the EU now have to be agreed by and then ratified by all the member Nations of the EU.
Every single one of them,so just one Country who is a member of the EU voting against any TTIP deal, means that deal is done,rejected.

At present it would seem only a minority are even warm to such a deal like TTIP with the USA and the EU.
With the vast majority of EU Nations against it.

We may well not know,who from the EU are negotiating with the USA on this but we do know 100% for sure it is indeed all the EU member Nations who will have to agree and ratify any deal.

As I said earlier, I would put money now on this deal being thrown out by the EU member Countries.

It is,with respect, really now a red herring in my view as to a valid reason to leave the EU since it is not going to happen.
Just as similarly Turkey will never get the EU Nations backing their entry either,not in the near future,the far future or even possibly ever,that is another red herring now being thrown from the 'leave' side too.

[the truth]

We do know for sure that any trading deals with the EU now have to be agreed by and then ratified by all the member Nations of the EU.
Every single one of them,so just one Country who is a member of the EU voting against any TTIP deal, means that deal is done,rejected.

At present it would seem only a minority are even warm to such a deal like TTIP with the USA and the EU.
With the vast majority of EU Nations against it.

We may well not know,who from the EU are negotiating with the USA on this but we do know 100% for sure it is indeed all the EU member Nations who will have to agree and ratify any deal.

As I said earlier, I would put money now on this deal being thrown out by the EU member Countries.

It is,with respect, really now a red herring in my view as to a valid reason to leave the EU since it is not going to happen.
Just as similarly Turkey will never get the EU Nations backing their entry either,not in the near future,the far future or even possibly ever,that is another red herring now being thrown from the 'leave' side too.


corporate takeovers are already happenning even if its not ttip the eu will allow corporate takeovers to continue. thats the entire reason ti exists

[DemolitionRed]

C'mon DR, you were voting Remain not long ago, then it was Leave all because of TTIP (a deal that - as Joey has pointed out at length - is nowhere near being finalised never mind being ratified by all 28 states), now you're pedalling the same lines as the Boris and Farage about this conspiracy of a 'secret order'

I've got no idea what Boris or Farage have been waffling on about because I pay them no attention but if they are talking about the EU being a secret order, they are right. I mean, who is our EMP's and who voted them in? Who leads the EU and who voted them in? Why aren't we allowed to look at the proposals for TTIP until after its signed for?

Being democratic includes power to the people. The more I understand or at least try to understand the workings of the EU, the more it feels like a corporate takeover.

[DemolitionRed]

As far as it being a 'red herring'. I've taken this vote very seriously. I mean, its not like I got up one morning and flipped a coin.

I was leaning more in than I was out until I did my homework with due diligence. This is not a decision I made lightly, its taken months to try and research the trade deals going on between the EU and America and one thing became abundantly clear is, British citizens and even MP's are not allowed to know what the **** is going on. Therefore I refuse to be flippant about something so fundamentally undemocratic.

[joeysteele]

As far as it being a 'red herring'. I've taken this vote very seriously. I mean, its not like I got up one morning and flipped a coin.

I was leaning more in than I was out until I did my homework with due diligence. This is not a decision I made lightly, its taken months to try and research the trade deals going on between the EU and America and one thing became abundantly clear is, British citizens and even MP's are not allowed to know what the **** is going on. Therefore I refuse to be flippant about something so fundamentally undemocratic.

I said TTIP has now become a red herring from the 'leave' campaigners,due to the firm opposition to it from the EU nations,leaders and citizens themselves.
It is in effect dead in the water as it stands.

No one is saying you have not diligently thought your position on this through.
However equally so, neither have I and those on the remain side.

When you first raised the TTIP issue, I looked at it closer than I had before and came to hate the idea.had it appeared that the EU Nations were heading to accept and ratify it,then I likely would have again considered voting differently.
However with the developments and rejection there will be from the EU nations now,for me TTIP is no longer an issue.
It is never going to happen in its current form and the contentious parts of it will have to be removed.
Again even then there are difficult roads ahead with the EU nations,so for me, the EU Nations have acted responsibly on this and so for me TTIP is not an issue now,it was but is not now.

I personally, and I also say it is just my view, would never vote to take the UK out of the status, success and uniquely best trading deal it currently has with the EU, on an issue that is not going to happen.
I personally am not prepared to throw away all the money we have put into the EU, all the work and time we have done helping to form the EU as it actually is now, for an issue like TTIP, which the EU Nations voting on the deal as it is, would soundly refuse to accept and refuse to ratify.

With now so many Nations in the EU,I am happier,because I do believe more reform can come as the PM said last night and no matter what the EU hierarchy may like to see, with 28 Nations now, it will be far harder to get consensus across the board now on anything that is not right.

For me the TTIP issue is the same as the Euro now,I would not want either,I now know the UK will never be expected to join the Euro and will always be able to refuse to do so.
TTIP is in my view dead in the water, tanks to the EU member Nations,neither are now issues and, for me at least, neither should be reasons for taking the UK on a path that is clouded in mist,of ifs, maybe's and don't knows.

So while I do respect you and your decision,for me this is like a dangerous ride for the UK,it is a bit like being at a theme park, awful comparison this, that has a dangerous ride,you seem content to take the UK on that ride without knowing the full consequences,I would rather myself stay with what I know and keep my feet on the ground as to the UK and not risk anything.

I know in the EU which we have put time, money work and effort into help create it as it is now,has a future and the UK for me is better served remaining in that.
I have heard nothing from the EU, the other Nations from the rest of the World or anything really from the leave campaigns, that fills me with any confidence the UK will hold the status it currently has, the success it currently has and that it would even do just the same as now if we left the EU.

That for me paints a dull picture indeed and sets alarm bells ringing for me.

I also am sure, that immigration in or out will not change unless it is immigration from outside the EU as I feel more sure every day that for any trading deal worth anything with the EU if we leave, in the end the UKs negotiators will have to accept as a condition, the free movement of EU citizens.
Stopping that is not a question on the ballot paper in this referendum,only our membership of the EU is.

You must do as you have come to decide, and what is best in your eyes and you have to be respected in full for your decision but with respect TTIP is not the issue it was and it is in effect more likely to go away totally,especially now with the massive opposition to it from all the EU Nations.

Really TTIP is redundant for me as an issue now in this referendum campaign, again I say, thanks to near all the other EU member Nations.

[MTVN]

I've got no idea what Boris or Farage have been waffling on about because I pay them no attention but if they are talking about the EU being a secret order, they are right. I mean, who is our EMP's and who voted them in? Who leads the EU and who voted them in? Why aren't we allowed to look at the proposals for TTIP until after its signed for?

Being democratic includes power to the people. The more I understand or at least try to understand the workings of the EU, the more it feels like a corporate takeover.

We elect our MEPs, I know who mine is because I voted for him. The leaders of the EU are appointed by our own elected representatives. Moaning about faceless bureaucrats in Brussels is like moaning about faceless civil servants and quangos in Whitehall making decisions. Fact is very little gets done in Europe without following democratic process. And its rich for Leavers to complain about unelected politicians when they are content with our own second chamber of government being comprised completely of unelected Lords.

[DemolitionRed]

We elect our MEPs, I know who mine is because I voted for him. The leaders of the EU are appointed by our own elected representatives. Moaning about faceless bureaucrats in Brussels is like moaning about faceless civil servants and quangos in Whitehall making decisions. Fact is very little gets done in Europe without following democratic process. And its rich for Leavers to complain about unelected politicians when they are content with our own second chamber of government being comprised completely of unelected Lords.

There are very few independent representatives and so if you vote for Dick Turpin (con) but Dick Turpin isn’t an independent and his constituency happens to be much smaller the much disliked Austin Powers, also (con), then your vote is being cast for a Conservative MEP but not the one you want.

The leaders of the EU surely must be voted in by the civilians they are supposed to be supporting and not a representative body who are swayed by the bias of their own political beliefs.

I would argue that there is very little democratic process within the EU establishment because any government cloaked in secrecy is a government that lack interest in public opinion.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/6/8/470317/default/v0/timesnew-1-992x558.jpg

[bots]

There are very few independent representatives and so if you vote for Dick Turpin (con) but Dick Turpin isn’t an independent and his constituency happens to be much smaller the much disliked Austin Powers, also (con), then your vote is being cast for a Conservative MEP but not the one you want.

The leaders of the EU surely must be voted in by the civilians they are supposed to be supporting and not a representative body who are swayed by the bias of their own political beliefs.

I would argue that there is very little democratic process within the EU establishment because any government cloaked in secrecy is a government that lack interest in public opinion.

MEP's are elected by proportional representation, the very electoral system that many of those supporting Leave want us to adopt here :laugh:

[MTVN]

There are very few independent representatives and so if you vote for Dick Turpin (con) but Dick Turpin isn’t an independent and his constituency happens to be much smaller the much disliked Austin Powers, also (con), then your vote is being cast for a Conservative MEP but not the one you want.

The leaders of the EU surely must be voted in by the civilians they are supposed to be supporting and not a representative body who are swayed by the bias of their own political beliefs.

I would argue that there is very little democratic process within the EU establishment because any government cloaked in secrecy is a government that lack interest in public opinion.

I think you exaggerate both the lack of democracy that exists in the EU and the lack of accountability there is for these 'unelected leaders' who tend to serve short terms and are appointed by those we elect to represent us.

I am very confident in saying that if we left the EU we almost certainly would not 'feel' like we are more democratically run. This is a different discussion I guess but if anything I think people don't actually care that much for democracy. Sure the turnout for general elections is decent but in local elections and EU elections we're talking less than 40%. And the PCC elections have had turnouts of less than 20%. I would say that the majority of people appreciate their vote every five years but aside from that they are quite happy to leave the murky business of running government, providing public services etc. to our representatives.

[Livia]

MTVN... king of this thread.

[joeysteele]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/6/8/470317/default/v0/timesnew-1-992x558.jpg

Amazing how now one bigger businessman has said leaving is right,we get from the leave campaigns that he should be listened to.

However they infer we should ignore the masses of big businessman who advocate remaining in the EU.

Was there ever a doubt this particular businessman was going to vote to leave, not to me there wasn't.

[arista]

Labour MP John Mann Comes Out For Brexit
http://news.sky.com/story/1709714/labour-mp-john-mann-comes-out-for-brexit

he is a Good MP

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/6/10/470561/default/v1/cegrab-20160610-095641-555-1-736x414.jpg

[Labour MP John Mann has thrown his
support behind the campaign to leave
the European Union, and says he thinks
a majority of the party's voters could
very well back a Brexit on 23 June.
In an open letter, the politician said
too few Labour MPs were in favour
of Brexit - and warned the party
is "going to get a big shock across
the country" when the referendum
votes are counted.]

[joeysteele]

Labour MP John Mann Comes Out For Brexit
http://news.sky.com/story/1709714/labour-mp-john-mann-comes-out-for-brexit

he is a Good MP

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/6/10/470561/default/v1/cegrab-20160610-095641-555-1-736x414.jpg

[Labour MP John Mann has thrown his
support behind the campaign to leave
the European Union, and says he thinks
a majority of the party's voters could
very well back a Brexit on 23 June.
In an open letter, the politician said
too few Labour MPs were in favour
of Brexit - and warned the party
is "going to get a big shock across
the country" when the referendum
votes are counted.]

I think he is wrong in the campaign he is supporting but probably right as to the outcome.

Personally I do not rate John Mann as a good MP at all however.

[Johnnyuk123]

We have all heard the scare tactics from the remain side about leaving the EU but what exactly will happen if we do decide to remain in the EU?
Lets take a look...

qmCAnQmqa9U

[joeysteele]

I am sick of hearing from Daniel Hannan and his one sided lectures.
Just what I would expect from him.
When he actually gives a supported and substantiated factual picture of out, then I may be prepared to listen to him.
There is good and bad if we stay,and good and bad if we leave, it is what the risks are as to both that in my view,should be the important factor.
For me staying has less risks because I know where we have been,where we are and would likely be going if we stay in.

Out, I have not the slightest idea what may happen or how the UK would end up.

[Kizzy]

Could I nominate myself as queen of the thread please?

[joeysteele]

Could I nominate myself as queen of the thread please?

I don't see why you shouldn't Kizzy,the thread may as well have 'remain' supporters, King and Queen of the thread,if there is any need for either that is.
I would second both you and MTVN for those titles for sure.

[Kizzy]

I don't see why you shouldn't Kizzy,the thread may as well have 'remain' supporters, King and Queen of the thread,if there is any need for either that is.
I would second both you and MTVN for those titles for sure.

Thanks :) Therefore I proclaim thee Prince Joey of Remaindom!

Wonder what merriment the brexit jesters Farage and bojo will perform for us today? :joker:

[Liberty4eva]

Has there been anyone who has changed their mind over who they are voting in the past few months or not? I am curious.

[Northern Monkey]

Funny how the EU budget has now been postponed until AFTER the British referendum.There's obviously some things in there which will sway us more for Brexit.Wonder what they could be trying to hide?

[Johnnyuk123]

This is must see tv.
uhhNmWjD98M

[empire]

I want out, what does this country need, with 1.5 million turks, and also this thing about an EU army, and that are country will be just a super state, this plan of a united states europe, and also a draft law if this united states europe goes to war, we will be forced to fight against are will, all this worries me,

[Livia]

Heartening news from the polls this morning. More and more people and businesses waking up and realising we're better off without the shackles of Europe.

[Kizzy]

If you mean Murdock then I think that'll just sway more people to remain tbh, everyone knows everything in his rags are lies.

[joeysteele]

If you mean Murdock then I think that'll just sway more people to remain tbh, everyone knows everything in his rags are lies.

Was there ever a surprise in that Murdoch would come out as for leave.

However, this is one interference from outside the UK that the leave side leaders will likely be telling us to listen to and heed.
While at the same time saying outsiders should not interfere in the process,only when they advocate remaining in however.

I for one however would 'never' take any notice of Rupert Murdoch.

[DemolitionRed]

I thought I'd post a blog by Richard Murphy. Richard is a 'remain voter' btw and although, for some reason, he refuses to discuss the TTIP deal, I find his blogs very thought provoking. Here's what he has to say this morning:

What if the UK votes Brexit?

The question can be agonized over or answered in a single word, which is arrogance. The referendum was Cameron’s equivalent of John Major’s Conservtive party leadership resignation moment. In both cases they had reached the point where they had suffer-sped those they felt to be the ‘bastards’ for long enough and demanded ‘put up or shut up’.

There is a difference though. Major put his own future on the line. Cameron put the country’s in the same position. Major was pretty sure of the outcome. So too was Cameron. There was however another difference: no one really doubted Major had called the odds right even*if it was apparent he would be doomed when he had to face the country. Cameron looks as if he might have got his odds spectacularly wrong. Even a narrow Remain, which is the best he could hope for now, would release the type of backlash that has swept the SNP to their current position in Scotland. Arrogance is the only explanation for that.

Of courses it would be easy to say that this is an arrogance that comes from Cameron’s position of privilege. But that does not explain why some of those with similar backgrounds are opposing him. The issue is not as simple as conventional class attitudes.

Rather, the arrogance is that of a prevailing cohort of power that has reached a point where it has lost the ability to think that it could lose that power. This arrogance is that if the Establishment. Owen Jones did a good job defining*this: I won’t re-cover his ground. What I will say is that there is a very obvious elite in society. It does cross political divides, to some degree. It does embrace large parts of politics, the professions, business, military and the legal system. And, dangerously, neoliberalism has given it a hegemony that restored its confidence after the battering that it took from 1929 onwards. That restoration of confidence had reached the point where it has felt itself insurmountable.

It is paradoxical, of course, that this elite is being challenged at present by those who appear to be a part of it. That though does not alter my thesis. The actions of Johnson, Give, Farage and the Tory Brexit camp are old fashioned power grabs seeking to realign the control in their particular favor. Such plotting has always been the favorite pastime of elites since time immemorial. But I have little doubt at all that people will not be voting for their positions, or them as people, or what they have even had to say come June 23rd. Rather they are voting against the elite. Johnson et al had better take note.

The wave of rejection has some deeply unsavory aspects to it. The racism is the most obvious and is deeply worrying. But again this is not the ‘why’ of the voting sentiments currently being expressed, in my opinion.

That why is simply that voting Leave is like having for the very first time an option of saying ‘none of the above’ and a lot of people are going to take it.
This is a rejection of the politics of hegemony.

And of the power of corporations.

It’s a giant rebuff to the status quo.

It is an expression of deep anger; at being left behind economically; of having the wealth divide rubbed in faces; of being left feeling powerless; of having little hope of changing anything.

And then the chance to spite the system arrived. And even if leaving is wholly irrational (and I have laid out why I think it is) people may well vote for it because Cameron, in his arrogance, assumed he could cajole and frighten people to do his bidding and so get them to solve his own little local difficulty and instead he created the chance for people to say ‘sod off, the lot of you’. And there is a real chance they will do just that.

No wonder Remain are panicked. No wonder the EU power structures are. No wonder the rearguard action so retain control despite a referendum looks to be the only option being discussed by those who fear losing power. That is what an elite does when faced with a crisis that rocks the state to its core, which is what a Brexit vote would do.

What is not being asked is how this decision is embraced if it happens. And how we adapt to it. And what has to happen as a consequence. It’s the arrogance that is stopping that happening: the idea of rejection is beyond an elite’s comprehension.

Some rude awakenings do, at the very least, look to be possible soon. And that may be very uncomfortable for many, including those leading the Leave campaign.


http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/06/14/what-if-the-uk-votes-brexit/

[bots]

lets look at an extreme example of being independent in Europe - Russia. The rest of europe tolerate them because they have a formidable fighting force and they are a source of vital resources that Europe needs for survival.

If Russia were a part of the EU, there would be much less tension, people would negotiate and cooperate.

While the UK will never be seen as the threat that Russia is, it doesn't have vital resources required by the EU either. We would forever be considered the loud mouthed silly nation that only thinks of itself. How is that a good position to be in? The moment we leave the EU, we will become a pest that people want to swat at every opportunity. That's the reality of leaving the EU.

[Livia]

If you mean Murdock then I think that'll just sway more people to remain tbh, everyone knows everything in his rags are lies.

Did I say Murdoch? No...