Israel declares 'state of war' : Hamas fire '5,000' rockets

[arista]

[Israel declares 'state of war': Militants Hamas
fire '5,000' rockets into Israel and target
Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as gun battles
break out in border towns and Israeli soldier
'is kidnapped'

Hamas says new operation against Israel
is a declaration that 'enough is enough.]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/07/76270615-12604497-A_man_runs_in_the_road_as_fires_burn_in_Ashkelon_I srael_followin-a-9_1696659977519.jpg



https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/08/76271567-12604497-image-a-48_1696664973635.jpg

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12604497/Israel-says-striking-Gaza-targets-Hamas-announces-new-operation.html


Hamas Troops also walking into to
fight.

LBC Live

[bots]

Israel will now go in hard, so it will get ugly very quickly

[arista]

Yes their Fighter Jets
are going to bomb them


Deaths on both sides

[Crimson Dynamo]

Israel have to defend their people from blood thirsty terrorists

[bots]

Israel have to defend their people from blood thirsty terrorists

Absolutely, and the gloves will be off, there will be no messing about

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1710540759101767681/fEHr16Ap?format=jpg&name=900x900

[arista]

https://video.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2023/10/07/8520790889008512730/964x580_JPG-SINGLE_8520790889008512730.jpg

[arista]

Live reports Hamas are driving Israel Police trucks

[arista]

https://twitter.com/ExploiterSolo/status/1710562573391941764


Hamas now take control a Israeli Tank

[Oliver_W]

There's absolutely no sound argument for a "two state solution" while Hamas are in power.

[arista]

https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1710567365602152533


Israeli Fighter Jets
Bombing Gaza

[arista]

https://twitter.com/humantheworld/status/1710574689259565551

[bots]

Israel have nukes, they could level Gazza in minutes. It seems Palestine has forgotten that

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F70KTpwXEAACfGi?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Crimson Dynamo]

Terrorists flying in on paragliders

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2023/10/07/TELEMMGLPICT000352306993_16966677402790_trans_NvBQ zQNjv4BqAOFR2YcuA-_3hWeC58xafg7ALHVVLA-JDUGMqL8ml1I.jpeg?imwidth=560
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2023/10/07/TELEMMGLPICT000352306990_16966687696830_trans_NvBQ zQNjv4BqLfZdHPP_Jms68Nei_IBhrsdqT5H2z40LP8eYFpXRgT w.jpeg?imwidth=560

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710570254865150280?s=20

[bots]

the palestinians have basically said they are going to wipe out Israel, so are they really that stupid, to not know what they are up against. Also, under that level of provocation, America will be in there helping out Israel

[UserSince2005]

****ing nuke them. Obliterate them.

[arista]

****ing nuke them. Obliterate them.

No, the Radiation we go back to them

[bots]

they dont really need to use nukes to flatten gazza. They have plenty alternative munitions that can do the same damage

[Liam-]

They’ve been waging war on Palestine for god knows how long

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710580568302223374?s=20

[bots]

That will be the name of a movie in a couple of years time

[bots]

Israel's emergency services say at least 22 Israelis have been killed after an unprecedented surprise Palestinian attack.

[Gusto Brunt]

Brain dead. That's all that has to be said.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710588564642095345?s=20

[arista]

Israel's emergency services say at least 22 Israelis have been killed after an unprecedented surprise Palestinian attack.


Yes, sad 22 confirmed murdered

[bots]

Yes, sad 22 confirmed murdered

My guess is it will go a lot higher from the initial attack

[arista]

1710588564642095345?s=20


Yes is this the problem
a planned mass attack.


Hamas has done this before
on a early Saturday morning.

[arista]

https://twitter.com/JimFergusonUK/status/1710607605381607888

[bots]

this is going to escalate very fast

[bots]

Russia's deputy foreign minister said "it goes without saying that we always call for restraint" :skull:

[MTVN]

Some of the reports are truly horrific. Civilians killed indiscriminately, bodies paraded through the streets and mutilated, women killed, the elderly killed, kids killed or taken away to be abused

**** Hamas

[arista]

Some of the reports are truly horrific. Civilians killed indiscriminately, bodies paraded through the streets and mutilated, women killed, the elderly killed, kids killed or taken away to be abused

**** Hamas


Yes Real Tragic.

Benjamin Netanyahu days are numbered

[bots]

Some of the reports are truly horrific. Civilians killed indiscriminately, bodies paraded through the streets and mutilated, women killed, the elderly killed, kids killed or taken away to be abused

**** Hamas

Israel will retaliate very hard, i just know it, and i don't blame them. This needs to be snuffed out quickly

[arista]

Over 40 Israelis now dead

[Oliver_W]

Hamas will play the victim in the face of any retaliation, as per.

[bots]

Hamas will play the victim in the face of any retaliation, as per.

thats one of the reasons why Israel need to snuff it out fast

[arista]

Over 190 killed in Palestine

[Crimson Dynamo]

attacking women

1710596139626660211?s=20

[arista]

That is terrible LT


Just Evil of Hamas

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/09/76271873-12604497-image-a-53_1696665866971.jpg

[arista]

Hamas

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/09/76271865-12604497-image-m-61_1696666809053.jpg


[Hamas fighters circumvented Israel's border
with the Gaza Strip by flying in via paraglider,
according to the Israeli military]

[bots]

We are seeing local media outlets reporting that Palestinian militants shot at Israeli civilians attending an outdoor party near Kibbutz Urim, a suburb of the city of Ofakim in southern Israel.

A video is circulating on social media showing crowds of Israelis running away from gunfire at an outdoor event.

We are yet to see official confirmation of any casualties but we will bring updates as they come.

[Denver]

Surprised that Isreal with such a big army have allowed those to happen, we have yet to see them defend their land.

The scenes are what we would expect in Libya or Syria not a developed country

[Crimson Dynamo]

Surprised that Isreal with such a big army have allowed those to happen, we have yet to see them defend their land.

The scenes are what we would expect in Libya or Syria not a developed country

They are not allowing it to happen

unlike the invasion we have to endure every day of the year

[Denver]

They are not allowing it to happen

unlike the invasion we have to endure every day of the year

Their people are still being kidnapped, why have they not launched a full scale attack on Hamas yet?

[MTVN]

The IDF have definitely been caught sleeping on this one

[MTVN]

There's a lot of distressing images and footage out there, please warn and spoiler anything that is graphic

[Oliver_W]

Surprised that Isreal with such a big army have allowed those to happen, we have yet to see them defend their land.

The scenes are what we would expect in Libya or Syria not a developed country

Their people are still being kidnapped, why have they not launched a full scale attack on Hamas yet?

The IDF have definitely been caught sleeping on this one

Not gonna lie, it does kind of feel like they're letting the atrocities "build up" so they can retaliate bigly.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not sure how you can stop a paraglider unless you have sentries every 200 yards, or stop a bulldozer going through a mess fence. As you can see its rather a big border.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Israel_and_occupied_territories_map.png/800px-Israel_and_occupied_territories_map.png

[Denver]

Hamas has overtaken many villages of course they can be stopped, one thing is getting in but then allowing them to take control after is crazy

[Denver]

Now being reported that Hezbollah is planning to attack Isreal in the coming hours which could get even more messy

[bots]

Wagner took a city and marched their way to moscow. Having 3000 missiles fired against you at the same time, it's impossible to protect everything. It's hundreds of square miles

[Denver]

Wagner took a city and marched their way to moscow. Having 3000 missiles fired against you at the same time, it's impossible to protect everything. It's hundreds of square miles

Difference is Russia had been alot weaker after a year of failings against Ukraine, Israel should be stronger than this especially when they are known to have one of the best armies in the world but realistically it only stops when Isreal allows Palestine to become its own country

[MTVN]

Of course it's a very difficult thing to defend against but to be so taken by surprise is a complete failure of intelligence

[Denver]

Of course it's a very difficult thing to defend against but to be so taken by surprise is a complete failure of intelligence

Tbh they need to look at their Intelligence as they was told their citizens would be attacked in other countries just weeks ago so how did their Intelligence get that so badly mixed up

[arista]

Sadly, more than 100 Israelis have been killed.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/08/76271017-12604497-image-a-38_1696663072912.jpg
Some Israelis
saved by their basement.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710591033220743365?s=20

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710633099757768823?s=20

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/09/76271871-12604497-image-m-58_1696666002575.jpg

Hamas have planned all this
Cutting the Fence
easy to get in.

[UserSince2005]

Disgusted by this. Hope isreal kills 1000 fold Palestinian militants

[UserSince2005]

Hell need to be brought down on Gaza.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710675721901801637?s=20

[bots]

More from the Israel Defense Forces, who have confirmed their troops are fighting in 22 locations in a statement.

"There is no community in southern Israel where we do not have forces," it says.

In its statement, the Israeli army also confirms that there are hostage situations in the kibbutzes of Ofakim and Be'eri. It says special forces are involved and "live firefights" are ongoing.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/14/76276375-12605053-image-a-4_1696686518047.jpg
[HAMAS :
The girl (his daughter) also appears to hold
a handgun in her other hand in the video,
believed to have been filmed in the West Bank]

[Crimson Dynamo]

utterly unbelievable from this vile left wing MSM "news" outlet

1710686436591030564?s=20]

[Cherie]

attacking women

1710596139626660211?s=20


jesus that is grim, poor girl

[Cherie]

1710591033220743365?s=20



a sentiment echoed by most people

[Mystic Mock]

jesus that is grim, poor girl

This.

I think for all of this to stop though I honestly believe that Israel needs to make a compromise, I mean nobody wants to see stuff like this, and the best way to stop it is for both sides to compromise.

[arista]

Sadly now over 150 Israelis have been killed.


SkyNewsHD Live

[The Slim Reaper]

Israel have been trying to wipe out the Palestinians for the last 60 years, and are the real terrorists. If you have supported Ukraine's right to defend itself, then you should also be supporting Palestine.

Obviously horrific scenes, but these same scenes have been happening daily for years the other way round, but they are not plastered across the media like this has been. Draw your own conclusions as to why that is the case.

I don't blame the Palestinians for fighting back against the apartheid system they have been living under. None of the tough talkers on this forum would allow an occupying force to withdraw our food, water, energy supplies etc without wanting to fight back. Neither should the Palestinians.

Israel has always been the aggressor in this occupation, and is a stain on the western myth of peace and democracy.

[Denver]

Israel have been trying to wipe out the Palestinians for the last 60 years, and are the real terrorists. If you have supported Ukraine's right to defend itself, then you should also be supporting Palestine.

Obviously horrific scenes, but these same scenes have been happening daily for years the other way round, but they are not plastered across the media like this has been. Draw your own conclusions as to why that is the case.

I don't blame the Palestinians for fighting back against the apartheid system they have been living under. None of the tough talkers on this forum would allow an occupying force to withdraw our food, water, energy supplies etc without wanting to fight back. Neither should the Palestinians.

Israel has always been the aggressor in this occupation, and is a stain on the western myth of peace and democracy.
The only issue is Hamas is an Iranian backed and has nothing to do with Palestine

[The Slim Reaper]

The only issue is Hamas is an Iranian backed and has nothing to do with Palestine

What? Iran has been thrown in as a bogey man. The issue is the Palestinian fight against an oppressor.

Zelinsky is US backed in his fight. Everyone is always backed by someone, and these stupid games are just there to try and cloud the actual situation that Palestinians are living through.

Imagine waking up one morning and the army were outside your house, demanding you get out or they will either shoot you, or destroy your property. Then you have to watch as the army helps occupiers just move in to your house as they mock you. then you are moved into a concentration camp.

You obviously have no idea of the horrors that have been waged on the Palestinian people, so I would ask that you look into what has been happening there, rather than take the "they're terrorists" BS that has been force-fed to us..

Do you think there might be a reason that human watch groups have all called Israel an apartheid state?

[Denver]

What? Iran has been thrown in as a bogey man. The issue is the Palestinian fight against an oppressor.

Zelinsky is US backed in his fight. Everyone is always backed by someone, and these stupid games are just there to try and cloud the actual situation that Palestinians are living through.

Imagine waking up one morning and the army were outside your house, demanding you get out or they will either shoot you, or destroy your property. Then you have to watch as the army helps occupiers just move in to your house as they mock you. then you are moved into a concentration camp.

You obviously have no idea of the horrors that have been waged on the Palestinian people, so I would ask that you look into what has been happening there, rather than take the "they're terrorists" BS that has been force-fed to us..

Do you think there might be a reason that human watch groups have all called Israel an apartheid state?

Hamas and Palestine are 2 very different things and are not related this isnt a Palestinian retaliation

[The Slim Reaper]

Hamas and Palestine are 2 very different things and are not related this isnt a Palestinian retaliation

This is purely about Palestine. Do you think Hamas charge into Israel if there was a peaceful 2-state solution? They've said they'd accept a peace, so yes, this is very much about Palestine and the Palestinian people living under apartheid.

Seriously dude, the information is out there. I'm not asking you to go onto conspiracy theories dot com, I'm asking you to show a bit of curiosity.

If you're an ally of the west, you're a freedom fighter, but if you're an enemy of the west, then you're a terrorist..

[Liam-]

Israel have been trying to wipe out the Palestinians for the last 60 years, and are the real terrorists. If you have supported Ukraine's right to defend itself, then you should also be supporting Palestine.

Obviously horrific scenes, but these same scenes have been happening daily for years the other way round, but they are not plastered across the media like this has been. Draw your own conclusions as to why that is the case.

I don't blame the Palestinians for fighting back against the apartheid system they have been living under. None of the tough talkers on this forum would allow an occupying force to withdraw our food, water, energy supplies etc without wanting to fight back. Neither should the Palestinians.

Israel has always been the aggressor in this occupation, and is a stain on the western myth of peace and democracy.

No lies detected, Israel is that schoolyard bully that cries when their victims fight back

[Beso]

This is purely about Palestine. Do you think Hamas charge into Israel if there was a peaceful 2-state solution? They've said they'd accept a peace, so yes, this is very much about Palestine and the Palestinian people living under apartheid.

Seriously dude, the information is out there. I'm not asking you to go onto conspiracy theories dot com, I'm asking you to show a bit of curiosity.

If you're an ally of the west, you're a freedom fighter, but if you're an enemy of the west, then you're a terrorist..


If the Palestinian people were oppressed I would give you that, but they just ain't.

It's all about land to them. Live and let live..But no, they cant, they are vile.

[Denver]

This is purely about Palestine. Do you think Hamas charge into Israel if there was a peaceful 2-state solution? They've said they'd accept a peace, so yes, this is very much about Palestine and the Palestinian people living under apartheid.

Seriously dude, the information is out there. I'm not asking you to go onto conspiracy theories dot com, I'm asking you to show a bit of curiosity.

If you're an ally of the west, you're a freedom fighter, but if you're an enemy of the west, then you're a terrorist..

You need ro search up on Hamas, their whole mantra is death and destruction and them being involved gives a big disservice to the Palestinians who will now be further targeted and not just by the Isrealis.

[Denver]

If the Palestinian people were oppressed I would give you that, but they just ain't.

It's all about land to them. Live and let live..But no, they cant, they are vile.

Actually it's about how their land was stolen and cleansed of all ethnicity then moved elsewhere with no rights

[The Slim Reaper]

If the Palestinian people were oppressed I would give you that, but they just ain't.

It's all about land to them. Live and let live..But no, they cant, they are vile.

Land that has been stolen, whilst people were still living on it. They have been completely oppressed, and everything I've written in this thread can be checked and verified. I'd like for you to try and prove me wrong.

Israel is restricting their water, their electricity, their food, and Gaza is little more than the largest open air prison in the world.

[arista]

54 Hostages
Ch4HDnews reported.

President Biden is now talking Live
he is full support of Israel.

All Media

[Denver]

54 Hostages
Ch4HDnews reported.

President Biden is now talking Live
he is full support of Israel.

All Media

He is the reason this has happened tbh

[The Slim Reaper]

You need ro search up on Hamas, their whole mantra is death and destruction and them being involved gives a big disservice to the Palestinians who will now be further targeted and not just by the Isrealis.

No one else is fighting for Palestinians as they are caged in so are unable to fight for themselves. In 2018, they undertook a series of walking peaceful protests to highlight their plight to the world. They walked up to the perimeters of the Israeli forces in silence. Over 200 were killed, and I think around 40,000 were injured. They have no other come back.No one even remembers that this even happened, so lets not pretend they should be prepared to sit tight and be eradicated in silence.

Of course Palestinian citizens will now suffer, like they have been doing every day. That's what happens when an aggressive oppressor is attempting to wipe your people off the map. If Hamas had stayed at home, Palestinians would still be being murdered, and their children tortured in prisons.. Desperation leads to desperate acts. No way did Hamas do this without the agreement of Palestinian leaders.

[Liam-]

He is the reason this has happened tbh

What? :joker:

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/17/76279603-12605083-Footage_appeared_to_show_hostages_being_taken_by_H amas_militants-a-1_1696696081179.jpg
[Footage appeared to show hostages
being taken by Hamas militants into Gaza earlier today]

Real sad that Israeli lady was taken hostage

[Denver]

What? :joker:

The billions he released to Iran just days back is no coincidence

[arista]

Yes a vicious circle

[UserSince2005]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/17/76279603-12605083-Footage_appeared_to_show_hostages_being_taken_by_H amas_militants-a-1_1696696081179.jpg
[Footage appeared to show hostages
being taken by Hamas militants into Gaza earlier today]

Real sad that Israeli lady was taken hostage

So disgusted by these ****ing animals. Destroy every single last one of them.

[UserSince2005]

This.

I think for all of this to stop though I honestly believe that Israel needs to make a compromise, I mean nobody wants to see stuff like this, and the best way to stop it is for both sides to compromise.

The compromise is that they should be wiped from the map and the problem will be solved. They are the cancer of this world.

[arista]

Israel has over 250 now dead

Gaza has over 350 dead

[UserSince2005]

TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!

[UserSince2005]

Israel has over 250 now dead

Gaza has over 350 dead

Make it 35000 . Justice needs to be served

[UserSince2005]

Isreal has every right to do what ever it wants to Gaza now. A blank cheque. ****ed em up boys.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/17/76279781-12605083-Smoke_and_flames_billow_after_Israeli_forces_struc k_a_high_rise_-a-9_1696696081184.jpg

Israeli Fighter Jets Hit Gaza
today.

[The Slim Reaper]

You try too hard US2005. You need to try to be more subtle.

[UserSince2005]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/07/17/76279781-12605083-Smoke_and_flames_billow_after_Israeli_forces_struc k_a_high_rise_-a-9_1696696081184.jpg

Israeli Fighter Jets Hit Gaza
today.

Love this. 100 more pictures like these please.

[UserSince2005]

You try too hard US2005. You need to try to be more subtle.

Don’t need to be subtle. Were the dirty terrorists subtle?

[UserSince2005]

Isreal should give citizens 2 days to leave Gaza and then bomb every inch.

[bots]

the Israeli PM says what has happened today has never been seen in Israel, and Israel will take "mighty vengeance for this black day", news agency Reuters reports.

[UserSince2005]

the Israeli PM says what has happened today has never been seen in Israel, and Israel will take "mighty vengeance for this black day", news agency Reuters reports.

Of course they can use what ever force they want now. This is their pearl harbour.

[Denver]

the Israeli PM says what has happened today has never been seen in Israel, and Israel will take "mighty vengeance for this black day", news agency Reuters reports.

Is he sure about that ?

[UserSince2005]

Is he sure about that ?

You doubt?:laugh:
Get ready for the next few days of justice being served

[Liam-]

You know where this sort of thing has been seen before? Palestine, at the hands of Israel quite regularly

[UserSince2005]

You know where this sort of thing has been seen before? Palestine, at the hands of Israel quite regularly

Isreal aren’t the terrorist though.
Also aren’t you gay. The Muslims terrorists would have you for breakfast

[Crimson Dynamo]

That scumbag Humza Yousef has failed to condemn the actions of the Terrorists in Palestine today. He is a disgrace to Scotland

No one is surprised

[Stu]

Occupation breeds this kind of - yes - terror.

https://i.ibb.co/LC2Gt3V/2bbcc750-ea42-4cd9-90aa-784283b30755.jpg

It's no coincidence Israel's PR spin has significantly less clout in countries that have historically suffered from oppression and colonisation.

What's happening is absolutely terrible, but we have the relative safety and luxury of informing ourselves of context. History unlearned from is doomed to repeat itself.

[UserSince2005]

Isreal aren’t the terrorist though.
Also aren’t you gay. The Muslims terrorists would have you for breakfast

And the Palestinian citizens would laugh and clap as you hang. Such joyous people.

[UserSince2005]

Occupation breeds this kind of - yes - terror.

https://i.ibb.co/LC2Gt3V/2bbcc750-ea42-4cd9-90aa-784283b30755.jpg

It's no coincidence Israel's PR spin has significantly less clout in countries that have historically suffered from oppression and colonisation.

What's happening is absolutely terrible, but we have the relative safety and luxury of informing ourselves of context. History unlearned from is doomed to repeat itself.

Gaza has a border with Egypt. Are Israel policing that too?

[UserSince2005]

Gaza will actual have something to cry about once Israel is done with them in a few days time

[bots]

israel will first get it's own country secure, then they will look to wiping out Hamas

[Oliver_W]

Wiping out Hamas would be beneficial for Palestine tbh.

[MTVN]

1710730697797734429

Wow

Solidarity with British Jews tonight

[bots]

that's disgusting

[Cherie]

London has changed to a **** hole unfortunately, it used to be a melting pot with people getting on with their lives, no group were more important than anyone else, this flagrant baiting has been happening more and more in the last few years, no kick back, no recrimination. Khans London

[UserSince2005]

London is a cesspit. Why I’m leaving.

[Cherie]

London is a cesspit. Why I’m leaving.

Don't blame you

[bots]

Earlier, we reported on a Hamas attack at an outdoor party in Kibbutz Urim, a suburb of the city of Ofakim in southern Israel not far from Gaza.

Gili Yoskovich was there when gunfire broke out and hid in a ditch for hours to survive.

"I was the first one to go out of the field," she tells the BBC. "Still people took two to three hours to go out.

"And all the way people are dying. Many, many people were dying in the road," she says. "Whoever tried to run away they were shooting them from both sides."

Her partner, Boaz Porat, recalls:"There was bodies right and left.

"You could really see that the terrorists took out people from the car and just gunned them down."

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710765014066352517?t=yvHLNMRcej7pAkEFpeCSdQ&s=19

[Crimson Dynamo]

Occupation breeds this kind of - yes - terror.

https://i.ibb.co/LC2Gt3V/2bbcc750-ea42-4cd9-90aa-784283b30755.jpg

It's no coincidence Israel's PR spin has significantly less clout in countries that have historically suffered from oppression and colonisation.

What's happening is absolutely terrible, but we have the relative safety and luxury of informing ourselves of context. History unlearned from is doomed to repeat itself.

If you must cut and paste propaganda do try and post a linked source

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/EDEA/production/_131360906_cropmailonsunday8oct-nc.png.webp

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D6E8/production/_131361055_cropsti.001.1gn.08oct_1041209814v-nc.png.webp

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1631A/production/_131360909_croptel1001cg-stnst-1-081023-a001c-st-nc.png.webp

[arista]

Please ariztaa I don’t wanamt to see

We must keep a record


Sadly, over 300 Israelis now Dead

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-4238f8f0-ef1d-4d28-82ea-52dc03a68216.jpeg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/78BA/production/_131360903_cropsundayexpresssx081023_frontcover-nc.png.webp

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/01/76291225-0-image-a-120_1696726297390.jpg


[German tattoo artist, 30, killed by Hamas
while attending a music festival before the
militants paraded her body on the back of a truck
and claimed she was an Israeli soldier - as her devastated
family say they are in a 'nightmare'
Hamas militants have been accused of kidnapping Israeli
civilians and soldiers]

[UserSince2005]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/01/76291225-0-image-a-120_1696726297390.jpg

😭😭😭😭😭 killed because she wanted to live life!”!?!??

[arista]

���������� killed because she wanted to live life!”!?!??

They did not take the time
to find out she was from Germany
and not a Israeli


[German tattoo artist, 30, killed by Hamas
while attending a music festival before the
militants paraded her body on the back of a
truck and claimed she was an
Israeli soldier - as her devastated family
say they are in a 'nightmare'

Hamas militants have been accused of kidnapping
Israeli civilians and soldiers]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606553/Female-Israeli-soldier-killed-Hamas-paraded-truck-actually-German-tattoo-artist-30-attending-music-festival-devastated-family-say-nightmare.html

[Ninastar]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/01/76291225-0-image-a-120_1696726297390.jpg


[German tattoo artist, 30, killed by Hamas
while attending a music festival before the
militants paraded her body on the back of a truck
and claimed she was an Israeli soldier - as her devastated
family say they are in a 'nightmare'
Hamas militants have been accused of kidnapping Israeli
civilians and soldiers]

I saw the video of her being dragged away and I knew there was no chance

****ing horrific.

[arista]

I saw the video of her being dragged away and I knew there was no chance

****ing horrific.

Evil to Kill her.


Peace Festivals were yesterday
so many internationals were invited.

This Attack from Hamas
was believed to be planned for months ago
for that Saturday.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/01/76274759-12606047-Palestinians_are_greeted_by_crowds_after_returning _from_crossing-a-98_1696723864770.jpg
[Palestinians are greeted by crowds after
returning from crossing the border into Israel]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606047/israeli-student-kidnapped-desert-rave-hamas-family-footage-gaza-missing-boyfriend-invasion-war.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710633253999174140?s=20

[Crimson Dynamo]

1 month ago.....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F72aioKXsAAeUuo?format=jpg&name=900x900

[arista]

The Israeli UK Ambassador,
in Israel for the Saturday Holy Holiday

Just spoke on Trevor Phillips, SkyNewsHD Live
she sadly confirmed Hamas have captive
one British Person in Gaza.

[Cherie]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/01/76274759-12606047-Palestinians_are_greeted_by_crowds_after_returning _from_crossing-a-98_1696723864770.jpg
[Palestinians are greeted by crowds after
returning from crossing the border into Israel]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606047/israeli-student-kidnapped-desert-rave-hamas-family-footage-gaza-missing-boyfriend-invasion-war.html

All men, you don't see any women out celebrating the abduction, rape, torture and murder of other women, the cowards targetting the most vulnerable as their targets, women of all ages and children....great job lads

[Crimson Dynamo]

look at them giving the peace sign, ignorant brainwashed fools

[bots]

Israel has already cut off the electricity and blown up the internet in gazza, so reality will start to hit hard

[MTVN]

There's footage from the music festival of young people all dancing and having a good time with Hamas fighters paragliding in in the background. It's surreal. The festival was in support of peace in the region. That's where they snatched the German woman from and raped and murdered her

Western apologists for Hamas should bear in mind that if they just happened to be in the region - maybe as a tourist or doing charity work or whatever - Hamas would see them as fair game for being a Westerner on Israeli land. And god forbid if you had a female partner, relative, friend out there with you. Your solidarity with Palestine wouldn't count for much then.

They make no distinction between combatant and civilian and use rape as a weapon. All part of the dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis which is obviously a recurring theme throughout history

[Stu]

If you must cut and paste propaganda do try and post a linked source
Human rights violations aren't propaganda just because they unsettle your own interior narrative.

Step away from the torture porn reporting and the sad truth is this is completely cyclic in nature. Hamas buff their control with Palestinians by showing strength against Israel, and Netanyahu strengthens his control over Israel by looking strong against the Palestinians.

Both parties benefit from these periodic escalations in their own way, and so neither really do anything to try and defuse the situation. And so as with the worst of conflicts, innocent Israelis and Palestinians on both sides of the border will pay the price, but neither political elite care about them which is why I am not going to cheerlead one over the other just because of identity politics or alignment with Western values. Israel's apartheid state has unlawfully evicted families purely on ethnic and religious grounds. They've separated families. They've systemically eroded these people's rights. They've tortured them. A lot. For a long time. It just hasn't made your front pages.

With Hamas and the apartheid state, there's only bad guys in this now. And it's true that it'll probably only end once Hamas are completely wiped out. Which could be this time. They have no chance against the IDF and less chance of getting their own land under international law back.

[Oliver_W]

Victim blaming.

[arista]

Israel has already cut off the electricity and blown up the internet in Gazza, so reality will start to hit hard

Yes they have,
advised people to leave.

But getting into Egypt is not easy

[arista]

The Problem is
Hamas Gunmen,
went house to house in Israel
Murdering all in there.

It has been 50 years,
since this level of attack.


Israel Saturday was a Holy Holiday
perfect for Hamas killers to break in.

[Stu]

And so as with the worst of conflicts, innocent Israelis and Palestinians on both sides of the border will pay the price, but neither political elite care about them

Victim blaming.
You're going to have to help me out a little, here.

[The Slim Reaper]

There's footage from the music festival of young people all dancing and having a good time with Hamas fighters paragliding in in the background. It's surreal. The festival was in support of peace in the region. That's where they snatched the German woman from and raped and murdered her

Western apologists for Hamas should bear in mind that if they just happened to be in the region - maybe as a tourist or doing charity work or whatever - Hamas would see them as fair game for being a Westerner on Israeli land. And god forbid if you had a female partner, relative, friend out there with you. Your solidarity with Palestine wouldn't count for much then.

They make no distinction between combatant and civilian and use rape as a weapon. All part of the dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis which is obviously a recurring theme throughout history

Western apologists for Hamas? Come on now.

Israel has been using these tactics for 60 years, including rape.

1710865850163429650

No one is defending the heinous crimes, but they've been forced to live under the very events you're scenario porning.

You can't be outraged at your own extremely specific framing, then pretend these events have come out of nowhere. It's about the Israeli oppressive state, not about historic anti-Semitism. The pretense that these events happen in a vacuum is the most intellectually uncurious game of make believe imaginable..

[bots]

Two Israeli tourists and their Egyptian tour guide have been shot dead in the Egyptian city of Alexandria, Israel's foreign ministry says.

A police officer allegedly opened fired on a group of Israeli tourists in the city. The officer is now in custody, reports say.

The Extra News television channel also quoted an unidentified security official as saying that another person was wounded in the attack.

It is the first such attack on Israelis in Egypt in decades.

[The Slim Reaper]

Jewish mid-east apologist for Hamas.

1710641243024220575

[MTVN]

Western apologists for Hamas? Come on now.

Israel has been using these tactics for 60 years, including rape.

1710865850163429650

No one is defending the heinous crimes, but they've been forced to live under the very events you're scenario porning.

You can't be outraged at your own extremely specific framing, then pretend these events have come out of nowhere. It's about the Israeli oppressive state, not about historic anti-Semitism. The pretense that these events happen in a vacuum is the most intellectually uncurious game of make believe imaginable..

You have defended Hamas, and even basically expressed support for them, in this very thread so I think my framing was legitimate. And every statement acknowledging the horror of the attacks has always been followed by a 'but'.

You keep talking about what Israel has done as if there is no distinction between state and citizen which is the exact problem. Hamas don't make that distinction either hence they consider every Israeli a legitimate target including civilians and even including children. Can you show me a time when Israelis have carried an innocent woman's mutilated body through the streets to cheers and celebrations?

[arista]

A British Man
20 year old, working in the Army
was killed by Hamas


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607413/British-soldier-serving-Israeli-army-killed-attack-Gaza-Hamas.html

[Cherie]

You have defended Hamas, and even basically expressed support for them, in this very thread so I think my framing was legitimate. And every statement acknowledging the horror of the attacks has always been followed by a 'but'.

You keep talking about what Israel has done as if there is no distinction between state and citizen which is the exact problem. Hamas don't make that distinction either hence they consider every Israeli a legitimate target including civilians and even including children. Can you show me a time when Israelis have carried an innocent woman's mutilated body through the streets to cheers and celebrations?

Or seen Israeli flags paraded though London and Jews cheering carnage

[MTVN]

Or seen Israeli flags paraded though London and Jews cheering carnage

Indeed, there's nothing anti-Semitic about it of course though

1710960946078712212

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710737523889041817

[arista]

Yes back in London
with the Hamas Flags.


Police now looking at it

[The Slim Reaper]

You have defended Hamas, and even basically expressed support for them, in this very thread so I think my framing was legitimate. And every statement acknowledging the horror of the attacks has always been followed by a 'but'.

You keep talking about what Israel has done as if there is no distinction between state and citizen which is the exact problem. Hamas don't make that distinction either hence they consider every Israeli a legitimate target including civilians and even including children. Can you show me a time when Israelis have carried an innocent woman's mutilated body through the streets to cheers and celebrations?

I have said the events are horrific, but I also understand that a country being occupied has a right to fight back against the subjugation they are forced to endure, and they have been so thoroughly trod upon, that they basically have no way to fight back on their own. I pointed out the 2018 march of silence they undertook, and no one gave a sh1t about them then. Desperation doesn't disappear. Absolutely zero acknowledgement for the true conditions in Palestine. The sanctions imposed on Palestine by Israel also fail to discern between citizens and the military, with the citizens being picked off the streets and tortured. I guess that's crickets though, right?

Then you tried to make it an anti-Semitism issue, which is the most cynical and appalling of your points.

Please explain the humane way you can fight back against an oppressor on your doorstep and in your country depriving you of the most basic of human rights, then we can talk.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1710998651344920912?s=20

[MTVN]

I have said the events are horrific, but I also understand that a country being occupied has a right to fight back against the subjugation they are forced to endure, and they have been so thoroughly trod upon, that they basically have no way to fight back on their own. I pointed out the 2018 march of silence they undertook, and no one gave a sh1t about them, then. Desperation doesn't disappear. Absolutely zero acknowledgement for the true conditions in Palestine. The sanctions imposed on Palestine by Israel also fail to discern between citizens and the military, with the citizens being picked off the streets and tortured. I guess that's crickets though, right?

Then you tried to make it an anti-Semitism issue, which is the most cynical and appalling of your points.

Please explain the humane way you can fight back against an oppressor on your doorstep and in your country depriving you of the most basic of human rights, then we can talk.

Hardly appalling, it's pretty intrinsically connected to this conflict. If those celebrating in London last night had seen a Jewish person walking past I've no doubt they'd crank up those celebrations an extra notch. Again it's because of the lack of distinction between state and citizen, apparently any Israeli is a legitimate target and an extension of that is a hostility to Jewish people worldwide. I'm not accusing you of that but Hamas are explicitly anti-Semitic as are many Islamists.

I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know the answer to the conflict but I know what it isn't. I also know that Hamas have been in control of Gaza for over a decade and have done nothing to advance the cause of peace. What they have done is oppressed their own citizens, ruled with an iron fist, used civilians as human shields, used rape as a weapon and killed innocents. Mostly while their leadership lives in luxury in Qatar by the way. The idea that Hamas care about human rights is laughable. These people are not your allies. I don't really know what it would take for some in the pro-Palestine movement to have their 'are we the bad guys' moment - apparently the rape, abduction and murder of innocent people isn't it.

[The Slim Reaper]

Hardly appalling, it's pretty intrinsically connected to this conflict. If those celebrating in London last night had seen a Jewish person walking past I've no doubt they'd crank up those celebrations an extra notch. Again it's because of the lack of distinction between state and citizen, apparently any Israeli is a legitimate target and an extension of that is a hostility to Jewish people worldwide. I'm not accusing you of that but Hamas are explicitly anti-Semitic as are many Islamists.

I'm not arrogant enough to pretend to know the answer to the conflict but I know what it isn't. I also know that Hamas have been in control of Gaza for over a decade and have done nothing to advance the cause of peace. What they have done is oppressed their own citizens, ruled with an iron fist, used civilians as human shields, used rape as a weapon and killed innocents. Mostly while their leadership lives in luxury in Qatar by the way. The idea that Hamas care about human rights is laughable. These people are not your allies. I don't really know what it would take for some in the pro-Palestine movement to have their 'are we the bad guys' moment - apparently the rape, abduction and murder of innocent people isn't it.

Feigning ignorance is not the avoidance of arrogance when it's paired with the insinuation that you do really know who the baddies are. It's nothing to do with allies, it's about the on-going genocide against the people of Palestine. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until the 2000's.

You're throwing in any kind of other sh1t you can think of to avoid talking about the apartheid regime - that's the issue, not what some folks are up to in London.

Rape as a weapon of war or in any circumstance is fcuking atrocious, but you're acting as though this is a new thing introduced yesterday, when it has been happening in silence against the Palestinians for decades. I even posted a vid of a former IDF soldier laughing about it, they've shown lynchings on live TV.

If 60 years of oppression and a further escalation over the last 2 decades doesn't make you really have a "are we the baddies moment," then it's a detachment from reality and willful ignorance at this point.

Just one point about Hamas - they have a right to fight back under international law. Their actions were terrible in a lot of instances during this attack, but they do actually provide welfare and charity to the people of Palestine. I know people don't want o hear that, and I'm not a Hamas cheerleader, but the truth is the truth whether we like it or not.

[arista]

Good on SkyNewsHD (now owned by NBC/Comcast)

Allowing the British Palestine Ambassador in London,
to speak live.

Slim far more balanced than the Poxy BBC

[Crimson Dynamo]

1711019275920478533?s=20

[arista]

Hamas used a Bulldozer to break through the Thick High Fence

Easy
on a Saturday HOLIDAY in Israel

Israel also used Bulldozer to break into
side wall of one of their Police Stations
so they could kill all the Hamas inside it.

[MTVN]

Feigning ignorance is not the avoidance of arrogance when it's paired with the insinuation that you do really know who the baddies are. It's nothing to do with allies, it's about the on-going genocide against the people of Palestine. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist until the 2000's.

You're throwing in any kind of other sh1t you can think of to avoid talking about the apartheid regime - that's the issue, not what some folks are up to in London.

Rape as a weapon of war or in any circumstance is fcuking atrocious, but you're acting as though this is a new thing introduced yesterday, when it has been happening in silence against the Palestinians for decades. I even posted a vid of a former IDF soldier laughing about it, they've shown lynchings on live TV.

If 60 years of oppression and a further escalation over the last 2 decades doesn't make you really have a "are we the baddies moment," then it's a detachment from reality and willful ignorance at this point.

Just one point about Hamas - they have a right to fight back under international law. Their actions were terrible in a lot of instances during this attack, but they do actually provide welfare and charity to the people of Palestine. I know people don't want o hear that, and I'm not a Hamas cheerleader, but the truth is the truth whether we like it or not.

I'm throwing in any kind of other ****? You're the one who, in response to women being raped and killed yesterday, posted a video of one Israeli soldier admitting to a rape happening 75 years ago? Okay fair enough, good on Hamas then!

I started my post by talking about the reaction in the West to these attacks so I'm not 'throwing it in', it was the main point of my post.

If you want to talk about genocide I think going house to house and shooting or abducting as many people as you can in an attempt to 'cleanse' the area is pretty genocidal. I think parading someone's body through the streets and celebrating her death because she was a different ethnicity is pretty genocidal. I think wanting the destruction of the only Jewish state (whose people have been discriminated against for a lot longer than 60 years) is pretty genocidal. I think lumping all Israelis together as legitimate targets to 'fight back' against is pretty genocidal.

[arista]

Yes Run in Gaza
Air Strikes are going to spread

https://twitter.com/StewzieGriffin/status/1710988449036325283

[Liam-]

Where’s the moral outrage when Israel commits those things against the Palestinians every week? All that stuff is happening to them on a regular basis, to pretend like this is was an unprovoked attack and that Israel is the ultimate victim is just unequivocally dishonest, is it awful that people are dying? Yes absolutely, if Israel doesn’t want to be attacked, it should stop committing atrocities against the Palestinian people in the hopes of stealing more of their land and wiping them out as a population, Israel is the Russia of this war, Russia doesn’t get to play victim when Ukraine retaliates, neither does Israel

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/15/76303515-0-image-m-19_1696775258326.jpg

[Hamas is APPLAUDED by activists at
Labour conference fringe event after killing hundreds
of Israelis as Palestinian activist says dead terrorists
have 'ascended to martyrdom']


STARMER sort your Fring out

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12607559/Hamas-Israell-Labour-conference-fringe-Palestinian-terrorists.html

[MTVN]

Where’s the moral outrage when Israel commits those things against the Palestinians every week? All that stuff is happening to them on a regular basis, to pretend like this is was an unprovoked attack and that Israel is the ultimate victim is just unequivocally dishonest, is it awful that people are dying? Yes absolutely, if Israel doesn’t want to be attacked, it should stop committing atrocities against the Palestinian people in the hopes of stealing more of their land and wiping them out as a population, Israel is the Russia of this war, Russia doesn’t get to play victim when Ukraine retaliates, neither does Israel

Again apparently no distinction between Israel and citizens. 'Israel deserves it', 'Israel had this coming', 'Israel has done worse'.

We're talking about children, tourists, the elderly, noncombatants. Many victims of this attack are international citizens. There was zero distinction between military personnel and civilians in this attack. Hamas considered everyone to be a legitimate target whether they had any responsibility for what 'Israel' has done or not. Let's not make the same mistake.

[arista]

I would put this Front Page

Today at Liverpool Starmers Labour Fring HAMAS supporters

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/08/14/76302377-12607559-image-a-13_1696772063408.jpg

[bots]

For all of my lifetime ( 65 years ) every country that surrounds Israel has wanted to wipe the country and it's people out. No half measures, they want to wipe them out entirely.

Immediately prior to that (not way back in history) Hitler tried to exterminate Jewish people by murdering any he could find.

The people that have the cheek to to say .... those poor Palestinian people are very conveniently forgetting recent history, even re-writing it. Absolutely disgusting

[The Slim Reaper]

I'm throwing in any kind of other ****? You're the one who, in response to women being raped and killed yesterday, posted a video of one Israeli soldier admitting to a rape happening 75 years ago? Okay fair enough, good on Hamas then!

I started my post by talking about the reaction in the West to these attacks so I'm not 'throwing it in', it was the main point of my post.

If you want to talk about genocide I think going house to house and shooting or abducting as many people as you can in an attempt to 'cleanse' the area is pretty genocidal. I think parading someone's body through the streets and celebrating her death because she was a different ethnicity is pretty genocidal. I think wanting the destruction of the only Jewish state (whose people have been discriminated against for a lot longer than 60 years) is pretty genocidal. I think lumping all Israelis together as legitimate targets to 'fight back' against is pretty genocidal.

None of this started yesterday, and that's what you are pretending to have no interest in. Again for the people at the back, dragging civilians into the streets is abhorrent, as was the murder of older Jews at a bus stop, as is the rape that has been happening, but it's not in a vacuum, and you just continually fail to acknowledge that fact.

So rape that happened 75 years ago doesn't count? Or does it provide the basis for how the IDF have been treating these people for decades upon decades. You nearly got there with the 75 years ago comment. That wasn't the last time it happened, and anyone with a half semi-curious brain would know that. Again, everything I've posted about Israel is widely available infomation to anyone else. It's not some hidden conspiracy.

Everything you are just now finding out about what happened yesterday has been happening against them, and this pretense that "oh, none of us know what has happened before" is just not true. You keep avoiding that point. Maybe have a look into it before you reply again to see if I've told any untruths.

Appealing to the historical abuses of Jews does not give the current ideological Zionist state a pass. If you want to have the conversation about how horrifically they have been treated through history; from the false claims of deicide and blood libel through the middle ages, to the horrors of Nazi Germany, I will have that discussion, but that has nothing to do with what the Israeli state has wrought upon the people of Palestine for the last 75 Years, Nothing other than an attempt to shut down discussion, and is pretty pathetic, actually.


You're talking about an oppressed people as though they have the power to commit genocide, and in no other context would a people fighting against an occupying force be attributed that power by observers. You only have to look at the words of those in the Israeli government to see what the intentions towards the Palestinian people are.

[Liam-]

The holocaust doesn’t give Israel the right to commit awful human rights violations against a whole population of people

[MTVN]

None of this started yesterday, and that's what you are pretending to have no interest in. Again for the people at the back, dragging civilians into the streets is abhorrent, as was the murder of older Jews at a bus stop, as is the rape that has been happening, but it's not in a vacuum, and you just continually fail to acknowledge that fact.

So rape that happened 75 years ago doesn't count? Or does it provide the basis for how the IDF have been treating these people for decades upon decades. You nearly got there with the 75 years ago comment. That wasn't the last time it happened, and anyone with a half semi-curious brain would know that. Again, everything I've posted about Israel is widely available infomation to anyone else. It's not some hidden conspiracy.

Everything you are just now finding out about what happened yesterday has been happening against them, and this pretense that "oh, none of us know what has happened before" is just not true. You keep avoiding that point. Maybe have a look into it before you reply again to see if I've told any untruths.

Appealing to the historical abuses of Jews does not give the current ideological Zionist state a pass. If you want to have the conversation about how horrifically they have been treated through history; from the false claims of deicide and blood libel through the middle ages, to the horrors of Nazi Germany, I will have that discussion, but that has nothing to do with what the Israeli state has wrought upon the people of Palestine for the last 75 Years, Nothing other than an attempt to shut down discussion, and is pretty pathetic, actually.


You're talking about an oppressed people as though they have the power to commit genocide, and in no other context would a people fighting against an occupying force be attributed that power by observers. You only have to look at the words of those in the Israeli government to see what the intentions towards the Palestinian people are.

Just because they don't currently have the means to carry out genocide doesn't mean they can't be genocidal in ideology and carry out actions that aspire to that. And indeed if the balance of powers amongst the West and the Islamic nations was different then genocide against Israel could be a very real possibility.

Look I respect that you feel strongly about this issue and I know you've been talking about it for a long time. The historical (and present) abuses of Jews are why I think Israel's existence is so important. I'm aware that many ills have been carried out by the Israeli authorities but I cannot see this attack yesterday as anything like a legitimate response. It commits almost every war crime in the book. Normally when a side commits war crimes in a conflict they at least try and cover it up. Yesterday it was openly celebrated and boasted about that and that's why the international community are so shocked by it

[Stu]

The people that have the cheek to to say .... those poor Palestinian people are very conveniently forgetting recent history, even re-writing it. Absolutely disgusting
What on earth does this even mean? It's genuinely baffling and completely dehumanising.

It's possible for more than one ethnic group to have it bad. It's not 'cheeky' to provide contextualisation and visibility over another ethnic group's wholesale and legitimate suffering.

This is the kind of bilge that feeds into legitimate anti-semite tossers.

[bots]

What on earth does this even mean? It's genuinely baffling and completely dehumanising.

It's possible for more than one ethnic group to have it bad. It's not 'cheeky' to provide contextualisation and visibility over another ethnic group's wholesale and legitimate suffering.

This is the kind of bilge that feeds into legitimate anti-semite tossers.

you need to take your blinkers off. It makes perfect sense to those not brainwashed

[Stu]

you need to take your blinkers off. It makes perfect sense to those not brainwashed
Okay cool, good argument.

[The Slim Reaper]

Just because they don't currently have the means to carry out genocide doesn't mean they can't be genocidal in ideology and carry out actions that aspire to that. And indeed if the balance of powers amongst the West and the Islamic nations was different then genocide against Israel could be a very real possibility.

Look I respect that you feel strongly about this issue and I know you've been talking about it for a long time. The historical (and present) abuses of Jews are why I think Israel's existence is so important. I'm aware that many ills have been carried out by the Israeli authorities but I cannot see this attack yesterday as anything like a legitimate response. It commits almost every war crime in the book. Normally when a side commits war crimes in a conflict they at least try and cover it up. Yesterday it was openly celebrated and boasted about that and that's why the international community are so shocked by it

Fcuking hell, dude. Anyone can be genocidal if that is the weak definition we want to use. Israel is a nuclear state with the most modern military technology available. Palestine has been bombed into the middle ages. It is not realistic in anyway to have fear for the Israeli state, and using it as a shield, and as I previously stated, is amongst the weakest possible points you could raise. it just is.

What is a legitimate response? They tried walking, and this is what happened, and comfortable people that are so outraged by yesterday, had absolutely nothing to say about these attacks that have been happening daily.


1710926366458425357

Unless you have an understanding of the last 75 years, then you really have no idea what an appropriate response is.

[Crimson Dynamo]

any minute now we will get the old retired IDF guy video "laughing about killing someone"

:rolleyes:

yabut whatabout when....

[arista]

Over 700 Israelis now murdered

All Media.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Over 700 Israelis now murdered

All Media.

DISGUSTING

[MTVN]

Fcuking hell, dude. Anyone can be genocidal if that is the weak definition we want to use. Israel is a nuclear state with the most modern military technology available. Palestine has been bombed into the middle ages. It is not realistic in anyway to have fear for the Israeli state, and using it as a shield, and as I previously stated, is amongst the weakest possible points you could raise. it just is.

What is a legitimate response? They tried walking, and this is what happened, and comfortable people that are so outraged by yesterday, had absolutely nothing to say about these attacks that have been happening daily.


1710926366458425357

Unless you have an understanding of the last 75 years, then you really have no idea what an appropriate response is.

I like that those of us appalled about yesterday's scenes are instructed to feel otherwise because we're 'comfortable' and 'thousands of miles away' therefore can't criticise those living under occupation etc. Fair point, except those lecturing are also comfortable and live thousands of miles away, have exactly zero direct experience of the conflict, no way of relating to the fears of either side, and simply parrot whatever the latest left wing mouthpiece on twitter is saying. You have spent hours and hours putting yourself in the shoes of citizens in Gaza - very commendable - but not spared a second to try and empathise with the other side

I'm actually pretty taken aback at how far you have gone in your defence of Hamas. It confirms that there really is basically nothing they would do that you'd condemn

[The Slim Reaper]

any minute now we will get the old retired IDF guy video "laughing about killing someone"

:rolleyes:

yabut whatabout when....

Hold up lads, let professor trumpet cook. :blush:

[The Slim Reaper]

I like that those of us appalled about yesterday's scenes are instructed to feel otherwise because we're 'comfortable' and 'thousands of miles away' therefore can't criticise those living under occupation etc. Fair point, except those lecturing are also comfortable and live thousands of miles away, have exactly zero direct experience of the conflict, no way of relating to the fears of either side, and simply parrot whatever the latest left wing mouthpiece on twitter is saying. You have spent hours and hours putting yourself in the shoes of citizens in Gaza - very commendable - but not spared a second to try and empathise with the other side

I'm actually pretty taken aback at how far you have gone in your defence of Hamas. It confirms that there really is basically nothing they would do that you'd condemn

Do you want to comment on the video, or just what the person who posted it said alongside it?

And there we have it...to acknowledge what is and has been happening in Palestine is not a left wing issue, or at least it shouldn't be. What else do you want me to condemn about yesterday, and I'll jump through the hoops to please you. What I won't do, is condemn the fact that they fought back, which is both their right and their duty.

Anything you don't like can be dismissed as left wing if you try hard enough. I suppose history is also left wing? Just absolute nonsense.

I haven't defended Hamas. I've repeatedly condemned their actions, so rather than concern trolling, why not learn about the region instead? This is what I don't understand, you've had 2 days to show some curiosity and you've shown none. Still pretending the attacks happened in a vacuum.

[MTVN]

Do you want to comment on the video, or just what the person who posted it said alongside it?

And there we have it...to acknowledge what is and has been happening in Palestine is not a left wing issue, or at least it shouldn't be. What else do you want me to condemn about yesterday, and I'll jump through the hoops to please you. What I won't do, is condemn the fact that they fought back, which is both their right and their duty.

Anything you don't like can be dismissed as left wing if you try hard enough. I suppose history is also left wing? Just absolute nonsense.

I haven't defended Hamas. I've repeatedly condemned their actions, so rather than concern trolling, why not learn about the region instead? This is what I don't understand, you've had 2 days to show some curiosity and you've shown none. Still pretending the attacks happened in a vacuum.

Is 'concern trolling' the new catchphrase? Not really sure what it's supposed to mean

Basically your argument is they tried a peaceful walk in 2018 which ended in atrocity. Therefore the only alternative option is apparently to invade Israel and murder, rape and abduct civilians. Those are the only two possible courses of action. It's their 'duty'.

You have defended Hamas and this thread provides plenty of evidence of that. You have not really condemned the attack besides a couple of wooly statements that 'what happened was awful but...'. And you are welcome to consider me an uneducated ignoramus on Israel-Palestine relations. None of us are experts on it, yourself included. You don't need to be an expert though to realise that there can never be a justification for what has happened in the last two days. It wouldn't hurt to occasionally acknowledge both the limitations of your own knowledge and the legitimacy of an opposing point of view

[Crimson Dynamo]

1711060153380782350?s=20

[bots]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2023/10/8/8c5c538c-0e8e-4999-a2bc-a772103c7c61.jpg

The US military is deploying naval vessels and combat aircraft to "to bolster regional deterrence efforts" amid the ongoing fighting in Israel, a Pentagon statement says.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin says a fleet of vessels centred on a US Navy aircraft carrier has been directed to the eastern Mediterranean. This deployment also includes several guided-missile cruisers and destroyers.

In addition, US Air Force squadrons in the Middle East are being augmented. "The US maintains forces globally to further reinforce this deterrence posture if required," Austin adds.

Extra resources, including munitions, are also being dispatched to Israel, with the first security assistance expected to arrive in the coming days. Austin says the action "underscores the United States’ ironclad support for the Israel Defense Forces and the Israeli people".

[The Slim Reaper]

Is 'concern trolling' the new catchphrase? Not really sure what it's supposed to mean

Basically your argument is they tried a peaceful walk in 2018 which ended in atrocity. Therefore the only alternative option is apparently to invade Israel and murder, rape and abduct civilians. Those are the only two possible courses of action. It's their 'duty'.

You have defended Hamas and this thread provides plenty of evidence of that. You have not really condemned the attack besides a couple of wooly statements that 'what happened was awful but...'. And you are welcome to consider me an uneducated ignoramus on Israel-Palestine relations. None of us are experts on it, yourself included. It wouldn't hurt to occasionally acknowledge both the limitations of your own knowledge and the legitimacy of an opposing point of view

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that 60+ years of this sh1t will cause reactions, because for the millionth time, yesterday didn't happen in a vacuum and your framing is pretty pathetic.

I've never claimed to be an expert. I've said more than once that everything I've said in here can be checked and verified by individual posters (if that's how they want to spend their evenings or get their kicks), which I think is pretty intellectually honest and engaging. I want people to try and prove me wrong. But also by your own acknowledgement, I've been talking about this situation for a long time.

I intended to call you uncurious, but I never intended to call you uneducated, so genuine apologies if I've either misspoke, or you've misinterpreted my posts. That's on me either way, so my bad, but I can't be arsed to read back through this conversation to check. I regularly tell people "that's fair" or something along those lines, when they make a good point against my own, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I'm a peaceful dude. I don't want anyone to be at war with anyone else, but I support Ukraine's right to defend itself and fight back, and I support the Palestinians right to defend itself and fight back. I don't apologise for any wooliness of any statement, because I'm pretty sure that anyone that semi-knows me, including you, would never suggest I support murder and rape of any people,

[Liam-]

Demanding condemnation for what happened in Israel while continuously refusing to acknowledge the near century long genocide of Palestinian people and the theft of their land at the hands of Israel is peak western hypocrisy

[bots]

Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, told reporters the Israeli woman in the photo was forced to hold a Hamas machine gun and pose for a photo

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2023/10/8/ca74c949-da91-4ca0-950e-34aa585d2ad0.jpg

[The Slim Reaper]

Demanding condemnation for what happened in Israel while continuously refusing to acknowledge the near century long genocide of Palestinian people and the theft of their land at the hands of Israel is peak western hypocrisy

There's just no way to know what happened before yesterday, unfortunately.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1711090960795361487?s=20

similar to Scotland :think:

[MTVN]

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that 60+ years of this sh1t will cause reactions, because for the millionth time, yesterday didn't happen in a vacuum and your framing is pretty pathetic.

I've never claimed to be an expert. I've said more than once that everything I've said in here can be checked and verified by individual posters (if that's how they want to spend their evenings or get their kicks), which I think is pretty intellectually honest and engaging. I want people to try and prove me wrong. But also by your own acknowledgement, I've been talking about this situation for a long time.

I intended to call you uncurious, but I never intended to call you uneducated, so genuine apologies if I've either misspoke, or you've misinterpreted my posts. That's on me either way, so my bad, but I can't be arsed to read back through this conversation to check. I regularly tell people "that's fair" or something along those lines, when they make a good point against my own, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I'm a peaceful dude. I don't want anyone to be at war with anyone else, but I support Ukraine's right to defend itself and fight back, and I support the Palestinians right to defend itself and fight back. I don't apologise for any wooliness of any statement, because I'm pretty sure that anyone that semi-knows me, including you, would never suggest I support murder and rape of any people,

Well indeed hence my genuine surprise that you have been apparently quite blasé about it.

I've deliberately tried to keep the discussion by and large to yesterday because the point is that you do not need to be an expert to be appalled by what Hamas did yesterday. You do not need any prior knowledge of the conflict. Fair enough we could have that discussion if we were talking about an attack on Israel's military bases, or they had only gone after combatants, or even if it was just the rockets that they usually launch. But the way in which the attack was carried out was not warfare, it was not 'fighting back'. It was brazen war crimes with innocent people as the primary victim, something that was subsequently celebrated. The point at issue is the manner of the attack, not simply the fact they carried it out. There have been plenty of terrorist and guerilla groups in the past who would not have resorted to such acts and who have respected the distinction between civilian and combatant. Hamas did not.

[The Slim Reaper]

Well indeed hence my genuine surprise that you have been apparently quite blasé about it.

I've deliberately tried to keep the discussion by and large to yesterday because the point is that you do not need to be an expert to be appalled by what Hamas did yesterday. You do not need any prior knowledge of the conflict. Fair enough we could have that discussion if we were talking about an attack on Israel's military bases, or they had only gone after combatants, or even if it was just the rockets that they usually launch. But the way in which the attack was carried out was not warfare, it was not 'fighting back'. It was brazen war crimes with innocent people as the primary victim, something that was subsequently celebrated. The point at issue is the manner of the attack, not simply the fact they carried it out. There have been plenty of terrorist and guerilla groups in the past who would not have resorted to such acts and who have respected the distinction between civilian and combatant. Hamas did not.

And I think everyone on the forum (if we're keeping it super local), can be appalled by the crimes committed yesterday. But what we can't do, is pretend that's the first time these kind of crimes have happened recently, because that is a massive piece of the pie and is integral to understanding the whole issue at hand.

If I keep talking about vacuums, I think Dyson is going to offer me a job, but that's the ultimate truth.

Also, I think people (not you, specifically) view this "conflict" as 2 countries at war, with one side being the image of western democracy pitted against the evil terrorists, when it' simply is not. One side has sticks and stones to fight with, and the other has access to the US military. It's like comparing an ant with a boot.

I say we're at an impasse, because I'm happy to keep repeating that rape and murder is bad, but unless you're willing to look at how we got here, then there really isn't anywhere else to go, and I'm cool with that. We've both made our opinions known.

[bots]

The Israeli government formally declared war Sunday and gave the green light for “significant military steps” to retaliate against Hamas for its surprise attack, as the military tried to crush fighters still in southern towns and intensified its bombardment of the Gaza Strip. The toll passed 1,100 dead and thousands wounded on both sides.

More than 24 hours after Hamas launched its unprecedented incursion out of Gaza, Israeli forces were still trying to defeat the last groups of militants holed up in several towns. At least 700 people have reportedly been killed in Israel — a staggering toll on a scale the country has not experienced in decades — and more than 400 have been killed in Gaza as Israeli airstrikes pound the territory.

The declaration of war portended greater fighting ahead, and a major question was whether Israel would launch a ground assault into Gaza, a move that in the past has brought intensified casualties. Meanwhile, in northern Israel, a brief exchange of strikes with Lebanon’s Hezbollah militant group fanned fears that the fighting could expand into a wider regional war.

Authorities were still trying to determine how many civilians and soldiers were seized by Hamas fighters during the mayhem and taken back to Gaza. From videos and witnesses, the captives are known to include women, children and the elderly.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-ca7903976387cfc1e1011ce9ea805a71

[Cherie]

1711060153380782350?s=20

Of course they did because this country is such a soft touch

[Cherie]

Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, told reporters the Israeli woman in the photo was forced to hold a Hamas machine gun and pose for a photo

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2023/10/8/ca74c949-da91-4ca0-950e-34aa585d2ad0.jpg

Some elderly people with dementia have been taken I dread to think what will happen to this lady

[Crimson Dynamo]

1711111951525224491?s=20

[bots]

It's the worst terrorist atrocity outside of 9/11

[arista]

https://twitter.com/SamanthaTaghoy/status/1711089179474456880

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-150d5886-e79d-4062-8953-dd7557b65ad9.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-c718755a-72e8-4741-bba2-079d5f94b720.png

[bots]

fierce battle on Israel highway

wj7LH-0lYLc

[arista]

Yes, terrible to crouch down in your car,
Staying alive

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-993024c9-42d5-48fd-999d-3110685443b3.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-23f8e543-8311-41df-bd79-e2aa3b4eb83c.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-8008cace-be73-4006-bfb8-f031c27b8001.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-00e4653b-fade-4d6a-8829-2a3f8f75895b.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-08a790c4-c5d8-4f67-a2c8-6066aaa70819.png

[arista]

Anger at the BBC
who will not call Hamas "Terrorists"

Every other News station is calling Hamas
"Terrorists"

[OnTheRight]

I hope Israel go hard and smash the terrorists.

[Vanessa]

Hamas is not doing the Palestinians any favours. They are terrorists and I hope Israel goes on them hard.

[Crimson Dynamo]

BBC calling these terrorists militants should be reason enough to never, ever pay the license fee again

dont pay

[Nicky91]

not choosing either side myself in this


Hamas are bad


but Israel are bad too

[Cherie]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-08a790c4-c5d8-4f67-a2c8-6066aaa70819.png

what hard men they are, parading around the body of a young girl who wasn't even Israeli.....

[Crimson Dynamo]

1711287737507045818?s=20

[arista]

Yes in the UK
they are Terrorists,
but the BBC say Hamas are militants?

They could tell the British Public
why they are against calling them Terrorists.

[Nicky91]

they aren't terrorists

ISIL, Al Qaeda that are terrorists


Hamas are a militant organization, also said so by its wikipedia article

is a Palestinian Sunni-Islamic fundamentalist, militant, and nationalist organization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


certain countries have labelled them ''terrorists'' yes but they are officially ''militants'' so BBC are kinda correct, to say something different than how politicians label them

[Nicky91]

as if Israel are that perfect anyway, answering violence with more violence yup :facepalm:


not every palestinian is part of Hamas though, and i bet israeli's have killed many innocents too



and this is not something from now, but something what has been going on for more than 40 years now

[joeysteele]

This is really worrying and desperately sad.

However for me, Israel's patience has been pushed to the limit.
I am sorry for all losses of lives in wars or otherwise.
However I stand completely with Israel and it's right to defend itself.

I just hope this new conflict can be defused as quickly as possible.

[Crimson Dynamo]

as if Israel are that perfect anyway, answering violence with more violence yup :facepalm:


not every palestinian is part of Hamas though, and i bet israeli's have killed many innocents too



and this is not something from now, but something what has been going on for more than 40 years now

Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation under UK law

wikipedia is bollox and changes daily like the wind

[arista]

This is really worrying and desperately sad.

However for me, Israel's patience has been pushed to the limit.
I am sorry for all losses of lives in wars or otherwise.
However I stand completely with Israel and it's right to defend itself.

I just hope this new conflict can be defused as quickly as possible.


Prisoner Exchange
could be set up
by a 3rd party.

[arista]

what hard men they are, parading around the body of a young girl who wasn't even Israeli.....


Massive Hamas Error.

[bots]

this conflict is going to expand, it's inevitable. I hate to think where this is going to end

[Livia]

not choosing either side myself in this


Hamas are bad


but Israel are bad too

they aren't terrorists

ISIL, Al Qaeda that are terrorists


Hamas are a militant organization, also said so by its wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


certain countries have labelled them ''terrorists'' yes but they are officially ''militants'' so BBC are kinda correct, to say something different than how politicians label them

as if Israel are that perfect anyway, answering violence with more violence yup :facepalm:


not every palestinian is part of Hamas though, and i bet israeli's have killed many innocents too



and this is not something from now, but something what has been going on for more than 40 years now


You've said some pretty dumb-arse stuff on here... but this takes the biscuit.

[user104658]

I think this is a particularly sad example of war - which of course is always devastating. Politically it's near-impossible to paint a good guy/bad guy scenario. Realistically, that's pretty much always the case (the world operates in the grey, that's just how it is) but even moreso here; an insurgency led by terrorism can never be seen as a good thing. Israeli apartheid, and the abysmal conditions in Palestine that contribute to radicalisation can never be seen as a good thing, and in terms of global history, the fact that Israel exists as a state at all is a complete political anomaly -- endless bloodshed being an all but inevitable part of it, which the Powers The Be at the time simply MUST have known. And the justification is largely religion/bloodright type stuff which is of course ... questionable.

But on top of that; the vast majority of the victims, even moreso than a "conventional" war, are going to be innocent civilians who have absolutely nothing to do with the politics of it. The terrorist atrocities carried out against innocent people in Israel are unthinkable. Israel will undoubtedly respond with a bombing campaign, perhaps a US-style "shock and awe" bombing campain, and the victims will mostly be ... again ... innocent people.

It's a really abysmal war.

[user104658]

This is really worrying and desperately sad.

However for me, Israel's patience has been pushed to the limit.
I am sorry for all losses of lives in wars or otherwise.
However I stand completely with Israel and it's right to defend itself.

I just hope this new conflict can be defused as quickly as possible.

I agree Joey I just hope they defend themselves with scalpels rather than sledgehammers... but I just can't see that being the case. I think Palestine may well be reduced to rubble, and that goes beyond reasonable defense.

[Oliver_W]

I agree Joey I just hope they defend themselves with scalpels rather than sledgehammers... but I just can't see that being the case. I think Palestine may well be reduced to rubble, and that goes beyond reasonable defense.

The best result for everyone involved (especially Palestinians) would be the rapid removal of Hamas.

[bots]

Israel took out 1000 infrastructure targets last night alone. While hamas still have the will to continue, their ability to do so has been surgically cut off. Now it's a case of neutralising the threats within Israel itself and then making sure that none of the other hostile entities that surround them take advantage.

Getting back the hostages is going to be priority number one shortly i would have thought

[arista]

Sadly Some Prisoners
being held in Gaza
have died, because of Israeli Fighter Jet Bombs

SkyNewsHD Live

[arista]

The best result for everyone involved (especially Palestinians) would be the rapid removal of Hamas.


But they were Elected.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/09/11/76332963-0-image-m-2_1696848486628.jpg


[Israel orders 'complete siege' of Gaza,
cutting off food and electricity,
and prepares for massive ground offensive
'within 48 hours' in response to
Jewish state's 'worst day in history'

Israel continued to relentlessly pound the
Gaza strip this morning with air strikes
Israel Palestine war LIVE: Jewish state prepares
massive ground offensive]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12609189/Israel-wants-REMOVE-Hamas-power-death-toll-700-likely-rise-says-military-spokesperson-Iron-Dome-shield-intercepts-wave-wave-rockets-Gaza-Battles-continue-inside-Israel-worst-day-history-Jewish-state.html

[user104658]

All but guaranteeing the creation of a new generation of extremists. The wheel keeps on turning.

[The Slim Reaper]

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

[arista]

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.


Yes,
they are turning off power
to flush out Hamas gunmen

[The Slim Reaper]

Yes,
they are turning off power
to flush out Hamas gunmen

They've been turning off power and water, including cementing the wells that provide water to Palestinians for a long, long time. Same with electricity and the absolute most basic of human rights.

[user104658]

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

I'm saying that the death of innocent civilians when the bombs start dropping is what opens people up to radicalisation in general; when you create a situation where people have nothing to lose, you all but guarantee it. Trying to frame (at least semi) organised elements like Hamas and Hezbollah as anything other than extremist is disingenuous - they clearly do utilise weaponised extremism - but the pictures above paint a stark picture of why people can be taken down that path.

As for whether it's a war or occupation, I'd actually go as far as to say it's basically historically unique (not this conflict; the entire history of modern Israel). It was a terrible idea at the time, it was carried out as a kneejerk solution after WW2, and it remains a terrible idea to this day. I can't think of any example of anything even vaguely similar politically, currently or throughout history.

[arista]

They've been turning off power and water, including cementing the wells that provide water to Palestinians for a long, long time. Same with electricity and the absolute most basic of human rights.


Not in a State of War



Hamas attacked them on a Holiday
they were not prepared

[user104658]

Not in a State of War


Intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime arista. Which of course makes both sides guilty of war crimes here - but it's not "an eye for an eye"... a war crime is a war crime.

[The Slim Reaper]

I'm saying that the death of innocent civilians when the bombs start dropping is what opens people up to radicalisation in general; when you create a situation where people have nothing to lose, you all but guarantee it. Trying to frame (at least semi) organised elements like Hamas and Hezbollah as anything other than extremist is disingenuous - they clearly do utilise weaponised extremism - but the pictures above paint a stark picture of why people can be taken down that path.

As for whether it's a war or occupation, I'd actually go as far as to say it's basically historically unique (not this conflict; the entire history of modern Israel). It was a terrible idea at the time, it was carried out as a kneejerk solution after WW2, and it remains a terrible idea to this day. I can't think of any example of anything even vaguely similar politically, currently or throughout history.

This is exactly what they've been living through already though. What is about to happen to them is a more concentrated version of their daily lives.

Here's the issue; elements of Hamas are undoubtedly motivated by extremism, and yet they're the only people providing charity and welfare to these people. painting them completely as a bunch of terrorists makes things neat and tidy to ignore the absolute and real terrorist actors, which is the Israeli government. Ukraine are freedom fighters, yet Palestinians are terrorist is pure western make believe.

A powerless people only has "terror" available as a come back. They have nothing else. The withdrawal of the basic things needed to sustain life by an occupier, is pure terrorism.

The fact it's an occupation is not really up for debate. I agree with some of what you say regarding the drawing of maps by Western powers ultimately coming back to haunt us, but we do have parallels from fairly recent history, such as the intentional starving of the Irish by the British government during the famine, and more specifically to scale, with the apartheid regime of south Africa.

[user104658]

This is exactly what they've been living through, already though. What is about to happen to them is a more concentrated version of their daily lives.

Here's the issue; elements of Hamas are undoubtedly motivated by extremism, and yet they're the only people providing charity and welfare to these people. painting them completely as a bunch of terrorists makes things neat and tidy to ignore the absolute and real terrorist actors, which is the Israeli government. Ukraine are freedom fighters, yet Palestinians are terrorist is pure western make believe.

A powerless people only has "terror" available as a come back. They have nothing else. The withdrawal of the basic things needed to sustain life by an occupier, is pure terrorism.

The fact it's an occupation is not really up for debate. I agree with some of what you say regarding the drawing of maps by Western powers ultimately coming back to haunt us, but we do have parallels from fairly recent history, such as the intentional starving of the Irish by the British government during the famine, and more specifically to scale, with the apartheid regime of south Africa.

I do get what you're saying but the actions taken and the methods used by the Palestinians who crossed the border can't be justified and I feel this flirts a little close to justification above and beyond explanation. I accept it as inevitable and I accept it as an accurate description of the explanation, but have to totally reject the torture and murder of civilians as justified, even when retaliatory.

[arista]

Intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime arista. Which of course makes both sides guilty of war crimes here - but it's not "an eye for an eye"... a war crime is a war crime.


Israeli Fighter Jets are targeting buildings with Hamas in.

[Cherie]

When Hamas crossed the border what did they think would happen they have put 'their own people' in the line of fire now, its not going to solve anything, they are just acting like barbarians because they can

[Crimson Dynamo]

1711328284880064896?s=20

diversity
multiculturalism

[arista]

When Hamas crossed the border what did they think would happen they have put 'their own people' in the line of fire now, its not going to solve anything, they are just acting like barbarians because they can


Yes sadly true,
Saturday was a Holy Holiday
Hamas picked that day
to murder more Israeli's

[Livia]

When Hamas crossed the border what did they think would happen they have put 'their own people' in the line of fire now, its not going to solve anything, they are just acting like barbarians because they can

They put their own people in danger every time they fire a rocket into Israel from a hospital or a school.

[joeysteele]

They put their own people in danger every time they fire a rocket into Israel from a hospital or a school.

Absolutely.
A point regularly missed is that.

[Denver]

At least 3 Brits are among those dead with 7 more missing and presumed dead

[Denver]

Hezbollah has said if The USA get involved then they will attack them, both Hezbollah and Hamas are known to have huge sleeper cells in the country.

Hopefully the UK stay way clear, its not our war and we can't afford to go into this

[Livia]

Hezbollah has said if The USA get involved then they will attack them, both Hezbollah and Hamas are known to have huge sleeper cells in the country.

Hopefully the UK stay way clear, its not our war and we can't afford to go into this

How many people of unknown origin have we let into this country in the last couple of years? If I was a terrorist leader I'd make sure as many of my people were shipped in as possible.

[Nicky91]

They put their own people in danger every time they fire a rocket into Israel from a hospital or a school.

fighting, fighting, fighting


more than 40 years now, and tbf Israel also just goes along with that, not trying to come with some form of a compromise to make this war stop



but no, i'm also not defending Hamas either, obviously, them continuing to attack Israel is indeed putting their own innocents in danger



Liv, honestly Israel kinda also has had its share of being called problematic, getting banned out of AFC, hence why they became a member of the UEFA, after they had troubled relationships with Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi, yes i happen to know this (thx to wikipedia)

[The Slim Reaper]

I do get what you're saying but the actions taken and the methods used by the Palestinians who crossed the border can't be justified and I feel this flirts a little close to justification above and beyond explanation. I accept it as inevitable and I accept it as an accurate description of the explanation, but have to totally reject the torture and murder of civilians as justified, even when retaliatory.

So lets reject all the murder and torture of civilians, because if this hadn't been happening over the last few decades then yesterday wouldn't have happened.

The Israeli army have been murdering and torturing children for decades with the tacit approval of our government, and by extension, us citizens, and It's always been crickets. Until folks really get to grips with the conditions and what is actually going on there, I find it really difficult to take the ivory tower pontificating on what is or is not terror or appropriate to be little more than obfuscation.We pretend one form of decades-long attacks like the ones seen 2 days ago just isn't important, but we get (rightly) outraged, when we see civilians massacred the other way round. My position is consistent; it's the folks who play these pretend games about Israel that provide the terror justifications, not me seeing the whole situation for what it is.

I'm not patriotic in any way because it's all an accident of birth as far as I'm concerned, but I'm self aware enough to Know that if the Romans turned up tomorrow and turfed me out of my house, put me in an open air prison, murdered generations of my family, stripped away any rights I had to participate in a society, I'd be fully radicalised to undertake whatever it took to hit back against any and all of my oppressors, and I think most people would.

Can already see the 2001 bloodlust returning in this thread.

[Iceman]

Hamburg Airport was put on lockdown for an hour there. Apparently an email threat from Iran. Looks to be back open now.