The EU - Referendum - 23rd of June 2016 - in or out?

[kirklancaster]

Do you believe that we should come out of the EU or do you believe that we should stay in?

Please answer and give your reasons.

[GypsyGoth]

I think the EU is one of the best things to ever happen to europe. It's more than just trade and unchecked travel. It gives the impression, that even though we might speak different languages and have very different histories, we're on the same side. What benefits our neighbor might also help us.

So I feel that Britain would be walking away from that. Instead of having a group of other countries as friends and allies, there would be a rivalry there.

[user104658]

Leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for many businesses, Farage's claims that he would fund certain things with the money "saved" by not being in the EU are utterly naive. That money would be swallowed up fivefold in lost trade. The immigration issue is a complete red herring, too, EU migration is not the huge drain on the economy that it is made out to be. Even for the anti-immigration squad... It's not a solution. The immigrants that most people have a problem with are the effniks and the Evilmooslims and relatively very few of those migrate from within the EU.

There are, evidently, massive flaws with the way the EU works but the focus should be on identifying and fixing the worst of those problems before abandoning the idea completely. Don't throw the baby out with the EU bathwater just because David Cameron has been exceptionally weak in Europe.

[joeysteele]

I am for being in the EU, as are all my family too.

I believe we are there and need to be there as a full member,All govts; have signed treaties and that is the fact, they are signed.
We just should get on with it now and do all we can to reform the EU from the inside,since outside we would have no influence.

This govt; put in place legislation that if any new treaty comes forward from now, then the voters will be asked in a referendum if the govt; should sign such treaty.

I support Labours plan which is exactly that legislation I posted above but in addition, they have said if a treaty came forward that now involved any transference of legislative power from the UK to the EU then that would trigger from them an in/out referendum.

I have never seen the point of Cameron saying this needed to be settled but waiting 2 and a half years until the election to even start any re-negotiations, and then take another 2+ years to do that and hold a referendum by the end of the 3rd year of his govt;
All conditional on 'if' he got an overall majority

I think it would be an economic disaster and also a status disaster for the UK to leave the EU and to have cofusion and uncertainty running for nearly 5 years from this PM is plain ridiculous.
So I would never in fact support leaving the EU and clearly would never vote in a referendum to do so.

That to me would be dangerous politics and dangerous for the UK as a whole too.
I also believe the voters would never be able to get an informed debate or relevant information from the media we have, as to the EU, in order to make a fully clear minded and balanced decision as to the EU.

Any new tranfers of powers would be a possible step too far now and in those circumstances,I would agree a referendum could be held.
I would still myself vote to stay in however.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Leaving the EU does not mean we leave europe we are in europe, we seem to trade fine with USA China and India.

My business trades world wide and if you were to ask me now who are the nightmares to deal with I would say France Italy and Spain. The best would be US and Canada and surprisingly Russia.

I look forward to a referendum and the debate that ensues

[Cherie]

In

[smudgie]

In.
With changes to the benefit system.

[Kizzy]

In, without a doubt.

[MTVN]

Leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for many businesses, Farage's claims that he would fund certain things with the money "saved" by not being in the EU are utterly naive. That money would be swallowed up fivefold in lost trade. The immigration issue is a complete red herring, too, EU migration is not the huge drain on the economy that it is made out to be. Even for the anti-immigration squad... It's not a solution. The immigrants that most people have a problem with are the effniks and the Evilmooslims and relatively very few of those migrate from within the EU.

There are, evidently, massive flaws with the way the EU works but the focus should be on identifying and fixing the worst of those problems before abandoning the idea completely. Don't throw the baby out with the EU bathwater just because David Cameron has been exceptionally weak in Europe.

I am for being in the EU, as are all my family too.

I believe we are there and need to be there as a full member,All govts; have signed treaties and that is the fact, they are signed.
We just should get on with it now and do all we can to reform the EU from the inside,since outside we would have no influence.

This govt; put in place legislation that if any new treaty comes forward from now, then the voters will be asked in a referendum if the govt; should sign such treaty.

I support Labours plan which is exactly that legislation I posted above but in addition, they have said if a treaty came forward that now involved any transference of legislative power from the UK to the EU then that would trigger from them an in/out referendum.

I have never seen the point of Cameron saying this needed to be settled but waiting 2 and a half years until the election to even start any re-negotiations, and then take another 2+ years to do that and hold a referendum by the end of the 3rd year of his govt;
All conditional on 'if' he got an overall majority

I think it would be an economic disaster and also a status disaster for the UK to leave the EU and to have cofusion and uncertainty running for nearly 5 years from this PM is plain ridiculous.
So I would never in fact support leaving the EU and clearly would never vote in a referendum to do so.

That to me would be dangerous politics and dangerous for the UK as a whole too.
I also believe the voters would never be able to get an informed debate or relevant information from the media we have, as to the EU, in order to make a fully clear minded and balanced decision as to the EU.

Any new tranfers of powers would be a possib lestep too far now and in those circumstances,I would agree a referendum could be held.
I would still myself vote to stay in however.

Agree with these two. I'm a bit of a Europhile really and don't even like the idea of a referendum on the EU never mind leaving it

[Vicky.]

I don't know, if we stay, we need to start accepting help offered aswell as paying in tbh

For example

http://rt.com/news/uk-refuses-eu-help-467/

What possible reason...

[Kizzy]

I don't know, if we stay, we need to start accepting help offered aswell as paying in tbh

For example

http://rt.com/news/uk-refuses-eu-help-467/

What possible reason...

That says more about the tories than Europe... they wanted to help and our govt won't let them instead of receiving 22M in specific food aid they would rather have 2M cash to create 'imaginary' jobs.
They won't want to be seen in a negative light our rich nation with our begging bowl out to Europe.

'The government has been accused of putting "anti-European ideology" before the needs of the most deprived people in society after Britain rejected help from a European Union fund to help subsidise the costs of food banks.

David Cameron, who was heavily criticised recently after Michael Gove blamed the rise in food banks on financial mismanagement by families, faced pressure to embark on a U-turn to allow EU funds to be spent on feeding the poor.

The government came under fire after British officials in Brussels said that the UK did not want to use money from a new £2.5bn fund – European Aid to the Most Deprived – to be used to help with the costs of running food banks. The use of food banks has increased dramatically in recent months, prompting Sir John Major to warn that the poor face a stark choice between paying for heating or food.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/17/government-under-fire-eu-funding-food-banks

[JoshBB]

I believe we should have a referendum, although in which case if I were eligible I would vote to stay in. I do believe in reform leading to more decentralised power though.

There was a recent report which said that EU migrants have a net contribution which is into the billions which we would obviously lose if we left. Also I believe that more european integration is a really good thing and the EU is a good way for countries to stick together. The european convention on human rights is also a good safety precaution I believe, should an extremist party ever rise to power.

The only reason I could see a reason to want to leave is the "free-flow of migrants" farage refers to every 2 seconds, although I would not necessarily want immigration reduced and I would much prefer reform and not an exit.

The EU is not my area of expertise but I do believe it is a good thing to stay in. Kinda hard to learn about when 99% of the media is anti-EU.

[Cherie]

I believe we should have a referendum, although in which case if I were eligible I would vote to stay in. I do believe in reform leading to more decentralised power though.

There was a recent report which said that EU migrants have a net contribution which is into the billions which we would obviously lose if we left. Also I believe that more european integration is a really good thing and the EU is a good way for countries to stick together. The european convention on human rights is also a good safety precaution I believe, should an extremist party ever rise to power.

The only reason I could see a reason to want to leave is the "free-flow of migrants" farage refers to every 2 seconds, although I would not necessarily want immigration reduced and I would much prefer reform and not an exit.

The EU is not my area of expertise but I do believe it is a good thing to stay in. Kinda hard to learn about when 99% of the media is anti-EU.

Great post

[Crimson Dynamo]

I believe we should have a referendum, although in which case if I were eligible I would vote to stay in. I do believe in reform leading to more decentralised power though.

There was a recent report which said that EU migrants have a net contribution which is into the billions which we would obviously lose if we left. Also I believe that more european integration is a really good thing and the EU is a good way for countries to stick together. The european convention on human rights is also a good safety precaution I believe, should an extremist party ever rise to power.

The only reason I could see a reason to want to leave is the "free-flow of migrants" farage refers to every 2 seconds, although I would not necessarily want immigration reduced and I would much prefer reform and not an exit.

The EU is not my area of expertise but I do believe it is a good thing to stay in. Kinda hard to learn about when 99% of the media is anti-EU.

you may not want immigration reduced but you may do if you ran a business or lived in an area of very high immigration or perhaps were at this minute looking for a job?

[JoshBB]

you may not want immigration reduced but you may do if you ran a business or lived in an area of very high immigration or perhaps were at this minute looking for a job?

If you ran a business, surely more immigration would be great because you can have more selection.

With the second point that is understandable in theory, however I do not see that there are a huge lack of jobs. It says it all when the main person claiming such a thing, Nigel, when presented with the actual statistics the 'stats man' claims that they are not that important.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If you ran a business, surely more immigration would be great because you can have more selection.

With the second point that is understandable in theory, however I do not see that there are a huge lack of jobs. It says it all when the main person claiming such a thing, Nigel, when presented with the actual statistics the 'stats man' claims that they are not that important.

If you are running a legit business and the guy down the road is undercutting every bid you make for new business because he is using illegals or paying well below the min wage to recent immigrants its going to hurt.

It also hurts if your school is spending lots of class time dealing with pupils that cannot speak english at the expense of teaching your child.

This is one of the reasons the NUT is thinking of strikes

[Helen 28]

Definitely out.

[JoshBB]

If you are running a legit business and the guy down the road is undercutting every bid you make for new business because he is using illegals or paying well below the min wage to recent immigrants its going to hurt.

It also hurts if your school is spending lots of class time dealing with pupils that cannot speak english at the expense of teaching your child.

This is one of the reasons the NUT is thinking of strikes

First point - surely that is not an argument of immigration but one of businesses and the minimum wage.

Second point - that is understandable, perhaps there could be more investment into english language classes for children.

[user104658]

you may not want immigration reduced but you may do if you ran a business or lived in an area of very high immigration or perhaps were at this minute looking for a job?
I used the "they're all taken by immigrants!!" excuse when I was supposed to be looking for a job while I was at Uni. Even I knew it was bull****.

The other two points - can you explain why running a business or living in an area with very high immigration is necessarily a bad thing? When it comes to cultural erosion most people's concerns are about "creeping evilmooslimification" or even simply along racial lines - and the vast majority of those immigrants are not European?

[Nedusa]

OUT

[Kazanne]

I don't know enough about it to comment fairly BUT,I don't like the way they interfere with our judicial system,those who know some of my background will know it was the European court of justice that interfered in the James Bulger case and it led to the two boys going from 15 years to 8,for such a heinous crime was pathetic imo,so for that reason alone I'de say OUT,but as I said I am not too well versed on it,but I am learning,so I 'll sit on the fence just for now.

[billy123]

I don't know, if we stay, we need to start accepting help offered aswell as paying in tbh

For example

http://rt.com/news/uk-refuses-eu-help-467/

What possible reason...That absolutely beggars belief the tories would have been terrified that accepting help would have a negative impact on their image of doing well in goverment and the false image that their austerity measures were working.
You never saw the snakes complain or have a bad word to say when the EU had the UK include drugs and prostitution sales in the Countrys GDP because that boosted the UK economy by £11 billion and gave the false impression that things were better than they were previously and that their attacks on the working class were justified.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/illegal-drugs-and-prostitution-boost-britains-economy-by-11billion-9764998.html

[Kizzy]

That absolutely beggars belief the tories would have been terrified that accepting help would have a negative impact on their image of doing well in goverment and the false image that their austerity measures were working.
You never saw the snakes complain or have a bad word to say when the EU had the UK include drugs and prostitution sales in the Countrys GDP because that boosted the UK economy by £11 billion and gave the false impression that things were better than they were previously and that their attacks on the working class were justified.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/illegal-drugs-and-prostitution-boost-britains-economy-by-11billion-9764998.html

Excellent point! Our wonderful, moral, god fearing tories are claiming recovery on the back of crime, exploitation and addiction.

[James]

That absolutely beggars belief the tories would have been terrified that accepting help would have a negative impact on their image of doing well in goverment and the false image that their austerity measures were working.
You never saw the snakes complain or have a bad word to say when the EU had the UK include drugs and prostitution sales in the Countrys GDP because that boosted the UK economy by £11 billion and gave the false impression that things were better than they were previously and that their attacks on the working class were justified.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/illegal-drugs-and-prostitution-boost-britains-economy-by-11billion-9764998.html

That's about 0.06% of the total economy, over the time period covered.

[Kizzy]

That's not really the issue is it? For me it's more newsworthy than the constant attacks on the poor such as welfare fraudsters who's crimes equate to 0.00000000000001% of those of big business or the banks.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That's not really the issue is it? For me it's more newsworthy than the constant attacks on the poor such as welfare fraudsters who's crimes equate to 0.00000000000001% of those of big business or the banks.

and how many jobs and how much wealth is created by the poor?

[empire]

out of the EUSSR please, next thing they will make a eu army and force us in pointless wars with russia,

[joeysteele]

I believe we should have a referendum, although in which case if I were eligible I would vote to stay in. I do believe in reform leading to more decentralised power though.

There was a recent report which said that EU migrants have a net contribution which is into the billions which we would obviously lose if we left. Also I believe that more european integration is a really good thing and the EU is a good way for countries to stick together. The european convention on human rights is also a good safety precaution I believe, should an extremist party ever rise to power.

The only reason I could see a reason to want to leave is the "free-flow of migrants" farage refers to every 2 seconds, although I would not necessarily want immigration reduced and I would much prefer reform and not an exit.

The EU is not my area of expertise but I do believe it is a good thing to stay in. Kinda hard to learn about when 99% of the media is anti-EU.

Another absolutely excellent post and the last part in bold, is 100% right.

The people of the UK could never get a balanced and impartially informed assessment pf the positives and negatives of being in the EU due to a ridiculously biased media against the EU.

Really well said.

[user104658]

[/B]

Another absolutely excellent post and the last part in bold, is 100% right.

The people of the UK could never get a balanced and impartially informed assessment pf the positives and negatives of being in the EU due to a ridiculously biased media against the EU.

Really well said.

Almost goes without saying, sadly! The people of the UK never get a balanced or impartially informed assessment of the positives and negatives of ANYTHING due to a ridiculously biased media.

I don't know if it's getting worse, or if I'm just noticing it more... But it really is completely ridiculous. Printed and televised news sources are all but completely useless. This election campaign is a farce already and it's barely started.

[Kizzy]

and how many jobs and how much wealth is created by the poor?

What is the point of this statement? I don't understand the connection to my post.

[bots]

I'm all for negotiating a better europe, but if that fails, I think we should be out.

There is way to much bureaucracy with unelected people in charge. Its all just jobs for the boys.

Too much legislation coming down that erodes our own sovereignty, and that aspect is only going to get worse unless we kick back.

The problem with europe is that it is not balanced enough to be sustainable. Too many different cultures on different levels of wealth. We are only 1 step away from communism with the principle that the wealthy countries contribute to sustain the poor ones. It provides zero incentive for them to get of their asses and help themselves while the net contributors plough money hand over fist into their pockets.

I'm not a UKIP supporter at all, Nigel wants to come out of Europe for all the wrong reasons and none of the right ones (in my opinion :laugh:)

[the truth]

get out of Europe is the best option imo the whole thing is infinitely too bloated too complex too expensive and way too many laws....the longer it goes on as it is the further we will fall into an almost communist style over controlling monstrosity
one glorious day when they will need to steal money directly from us all to pay for their waste and their existence there will be tachometers in everyones cars...then youll all give up

[jennyjuniper]

I remember the time before Britain became part of the EU and we never had a problem with trade in those days.
Also having borders was a big help in fighting drugs, illegal immigration etc.,
I do believe that we should have a referendum. Why is it that the government (all parties) are so reluctant to have one?
In Denmark, where I now live, the people were asked to vote to be part of the EU. There was a resounding NO, so the Danish government kept having a vote untiul they got the right /wrong in my view, answer.
I like the thought of Britain being an independant nation once more. Making our own decisions and just being responsible for ourselves.
However if a referendum was held and the majority did want to be in the EU I would have to accept it.
For me personally I think Britain being ruled by fat cat pen pushers in Brussels is the worst idea possible.

[joeysteele]

I remember the time before Britain became part of the EU and we never had a problem with trade in those days.
Also having borders was a big help in fighting drugs, illegal immigration etc.,
I do believe that we should have a referendum. Why is it that the government (all parties) are so reluctant to have one?
In Denmark, where I now live, the people were asked to vote to be part of the EU. There was a resounding NO, so the Danish government kept having a vote untiul they got the right /wrong in my view, answer.
I like the thought of Britain being an independant nation once more. Making our own decisions and just being responsible for ourselves.
However if a referendum was held and the majority did want to be in the EU I would have to accept it.
For me personally I think Britain being ruled by fat cat pen pushers in Brussels is the worst idea possible.

The EU or common market then was very small in relation to how it has progressed today,from before we joined.

However,a worthy fact of that tiems, iof we were doing so well as you say, why then did the UK under both Conservative and Labour govt;s deperately try and apply to become part of it.
From Harold Mcmillan right through to Edward heath.
With Edward Heath, the then Conservative PM in the early70s,who negotiated terms of entry to Europe and then took the UK into Europe too.

Never holding a referendum if the UK wanted to go in, just doing it.

If we were doing that well, why would we want to change and join, because we knew it would likely grow into a masisve trading block and to not be part of it wold be a disaster,even in the 70s and 80s,up top the present.

The UK did then eventually get asked if we should be in or out, in 1975 by Harold Wilson's Labour govt;
In fact Labour is the only party to ever hold any referendum on Europe, the Conservatives as I said, even took us in,in the first place, nevr asking the UK citizens at all.

So I cannot see any point, after all that time and all the funding we have given to and had back from the EU,plus that we have been a member for so long now,to even think of leaving now with all the massive uncertianty and bad feeling that would likely create for the UK.

[Kazanne]

Why should Europe overturn tariffs given by us for UK crimes,I don't like that sort of interference,what we do with our criminals is surely down to us.

[JoshBB]

Why should Europe overturn tariffs given by us for UK crimes,I don't like that sort of interference,what we do with our criminals is surely down to us.

That would be a viable argument but not without hypocrisy since our country gets involved in the criminal justice systems of other countries too.

[Kizzy]

Why should Europe overturn tariffs given by us for UK crimes,I don't like that sort of interference,what we do with our criminals is surely down to us.

I know this is due to a case that is very personal to you and it's a point that would leave anyone without a heart of stone shocked that the EU would become involved in this and reduce the sentence.
All I can think is that there was nothing in place and no rules in place with which to deal with such a crime at the time so the British courts had to sort of make it up as they went along?

[joeysteele]

Why should Europe overturn tariffs given by us for UK crimes,I don't like that sort of interference,what we do with our criminals is surely down to us.

Because govts; both Labour and Conservative have signed up to such possible interference by the signing of treaties and acts brought forward by the EU and no govt; Labour or Conservative have ever asked the voters to agree to same.

However, that is done now, our govts; and PMs from Edward Heath, Harold Wilson, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, have all signed up to treaties brought forward, so our word as the UK has been given.

Both parties in govt; too have signed away powers from the UK to the EU, John Major and the Masstricht threaty being one of the biggest.
John Major would have been open to joining the Euro too, as was Tony Blair,who wanted to go for it but Gordon Brown said no way at all as to that as the then Chancellor.

I agree it seems wrong but there are what now, around 28 countries in the EU now and all of them are under that same directive just as we are.

So for me, and I agree with your strong point made.
In my view however,we need to try to reform things, if we can, from being fully inside the EU but not now, after agreeing to all these conditions and treaties,not to just pick our ball up and run off whining,because we cannot get our own way all or even most of the time.

[JoshBB]

Because govts; both Labour and Conservative have signed up to such possible interference by the signing of treaties and acts brought forward by the EU and no govt; Labour or Conservative have ever asked the voters to agree to same.

However, that is done now, our govts; and PMs from Edward Heath, Harold Wilson, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, have all signed up to treaties brought forward, so our word as the UK has been given.

Both parties in govt; too have signed away powers from the UK to the EU, John Major and the Masstricht threaty being one of the biggest.
John Major would have been open to joining the Euro too, as was Tony Blair,who wanted to go for it but Gordon Brown said no way at all as to that as the then Chancellor.

I agree it seems wrong but there are what now, around 28 countries in the EU now and all of them are under that same directive just as we are.

So for me, and I agree with your strong point made.
In my view however,we need to try to reform things, if we can, from being fully inside the EU but not now, after agreeing to all these conditions and treaties,not to just pick our ball up and run off whining,because we cannot get our own way all or even most of the time.


Thank god for that. I haven't heard good things of Gordon but I guess this could be one of them.

[Kizzy]

Do we still have the European arrest warrant Joey?.... I can't work out if we do or not :/


'Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): Today we have had a completely shambolic debate. The Home Secretary has given an excellent account of why we should support policies that are not on the Order Paper. She has given an excellent defence of the European arrest warrant, which is not on the Order Paper. I agree with her that the European arrest warrant is immensely important. It helps us to fight crime. It helps the police, in Britain and across Europe, to stop murderers, traffickers and sex offenders. It helps us to deport more than 1,000 suspected foreign criminals primarily to their own countries to face justice. Given that there is a majority in this House in favour of the European arrest warrant, why on earth are we not voting for it? Why the sophistry? Why the games? Why the dancing around? It is just baffling that the Home Secretary is playing games with something so important to criminal justice and to the fight against international crime and terrorism.'

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141110/debtext/141110-0002.htm#14111019000001

[joeysteele]

Thank god for that. I haven't heard good things of Gordon but I guess this could be one of them.


Gordon Brown as Chancellor insisted that no way would he permit Tony Blair to go ahead and explore joining the Euro,he ruled it out completely..
If Tony Blair had got his way, we would have probably had the Euro now.

[joeysteele]

Do we still have the European arrest warrant Joey?.... I can't work out if we do or not :/


'Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): Today we have had a completely shambolic debate. The Home Secretary has given an excellent account of why we should support policies that are not on the Order Paper. She has given an excellent defence of the European arrest warrant, which is not on the Order Paper. I agree with her that the European arrest warrant is immensely important. It helps us to fight crime. It helps the police, in Britain and across Europe, to stop murderers, traffickers and sex offenders. It helps us to deport more than 1,000 suspected foreign criminals primarily to their own countries to face justice. Given that there is a majority in this House in favour of the European arrest warrant, why on earth are we not voting for it? Why the sophistry? Why the games? Why the dancing around? It is just baffling that the Home Secretary is playing games with something so important to criminal justice and to the fight against international crime and terrorism.'

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141110/debtext/141110-0002.htm#14111019000001

Confusing,I understand last year this govt wanted to opt out of the european criminal law conditions but at the same time wanted to opt in again to the european arrest warrant system part of it.
I understand we are still in that part of it for now but things will be likely changing again as to the EU directive on european criminal law, so it may well be that we cannot still remain in it,when those changes come forward,if we are opted out of the other conditions again.

No wonder you get confused, this Home Secretary is the biggest waste of space in any govt; past ,present or even likely future one.
She has played dangerous games with security and international cooperation as to crime, in my view.
How she has survived is up to the present, my greatest political mystery.

[Samuel.]

I think the EU is one of the best things to ever happen to europe. It's more than just trade and unchecked travel. It gives the impression, that even though we might speak different languages and have very different histories, we're on the same side. What benefits our neighbor might also help us.

So I feel that Britain would be walking away from that. Instead of having a group of other countries as friends and allies, there would be a rivalry there.

Absolutely this

[user104658]

Confusing,I understand last year this govt wanted to opt out of the european criminal law conditions but at the same time wanted to opt in again to the european arrest warrant system part of it.
I understand we are still in that part of it for now but things will be likely changing again as to the EU directive on european criminal law, so it may well be that we cannot still remain in it,when those changes come forward,if we are opted out of the other conditions again.

No wonder you get confused, this Home Secretary is the biggest waste of space in any govt; past ,present or even likely future one.
She has played dangeorus games with security and international cooperation as to crime, in my view.
How she has survived is up to the present, my greatest political mystery.

She probably knows something sensitive, about someone with influence. That's usually how incompetent people end up keeping their jobs. Or get them in the first place.

[Kizzy]

Yes... she could be doing an edwina and tupping her way up? *shudder*

[joeysteele]

Yes... she could be doing an edwina and tupping her way up? *shudder*

All I can think of is that David Cameron has always seen her as a threat to his leadership so has kept her close, backed her up all the time,no matter the problems that came up.

She is also one I think who is really eager that if Cameron ends up going after the May election,she is ready to pounce, as she is a frontrunner to win that leadership contest.

[user104658]

Maybe she likes to... No, better stop, this filthy talk about politicians already got one thread removed!

[Daniel-X]

100% IN

[the truth]

the US constitution is 13 pages...the European constitution is 587 pages of unreadable nonsense....that sums is up. no one can or has even read the european one in full. the sheer enormity of it the almost infinite ;laws rules and regulations...all designed to milk each european of money to feed these overpaid unelected unaccountable eurocrats.
the ONLY thing that saved the uk from bankruptcy is the pound and controlling our interest rates. GET OUT ASAP. in the meantime lets fight tooth and nail to get as many rules that suit our agenda

[joeysteele]

the US constitution is 13 pages...the European constitution is 587 pages of unreadable nonsense....that sums is up. no one can or has even read the european one in full. the sheer enormity of it the almost infinite ;laws rules and regulations...all designed to milk each european of money to feed these overpaid unelected unaccountable eurocrats.
the ONLY thing that saved the uk from bankruptcy is the pound and controlling our interest rates. GET OUT ASAP. in the meantime lets fight tooth and nail to get as many rules that suit our agenda

Hardly unelected, there is a European parliament which each member nation sends MPs too from their respective european elections.

It isn't that important to have to read every detail of the EU 'constitution' what the people in the UK do need to know is the benefits we acquire from being in the EU and also the drawbacks to being in.

I think if that was ever presented fairly and balanced from the media and indeed UK politicians too.
Then in that case just possibly, the voters would get a better idea of the whole picture with facts, and not just the hysterically prejudiced UKIP version where all is really bad as to the EU, which is ridiculous,or say the Lib Dem version where all is wonderful about the EU, again a ridiculous stance.

I support being in the EU and have no wish for a referendum either at this time,I admit however there are negatives as well as positives to being in the EU but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives.

No other major country hit bankruptcy and the Germans were doing much better than we were for one,and they have the euro not the pound.

Our problem with the EU parliament is we send MPs there who are not committed to it.
We send MPs who become isolated because most of them especially in the last european elections,are anti EU anyway.
We can never really influence happenings in the EU if we keep sending half hearted or disruptive people there on our behalf.
Or have any govt, that casts a cloud over EU membership for almost 5 years.like this present govt; or god forbid elects a govt; that says we have to come out no matter what happens as to any re-negotiations.

I am thankfully not a little Englander, I see the UKs role enhanced in the World by being part of the massive EU, not being a sidelined small island as to the rest of Europe.

UKIPs policy as to the EU,combining it with immigration is the most dangerous policy for the UK overall,in my view.
Just as the pocrastination from this PM over the last 2 and a half years,then wanting another 2+ years to re-negotiate and then hold a 'possible' referendum is also, to me, dangerous and demonstrating terrible leadership of the UK as a whole.

[bots]

John Major would have been open to joining the Euro too, as was Tony Blair,who wanted to go for it but Gordon Brown said no way at all as to that as the then Chancellor.


John Major as PM took the first steps in aligning the pound with the euro, and there was a subsequent run on the pound that was an unprecedented disaster. That link only lasted something like 24 hours and cost us a fortune. Thats why Gordon Brown wouldn't join the euro unless all the conditions of our economy were favourable - they never have been - says it all really. At some point in time, the majority of EU members are going to insist that we join the euro or leave the EU, can't see the conclusion being anything other than leaving, the only thing to be determined is timescale until it happens.

[MTVN]

Think it does have to be accepted that the Euroscpetics have probably won the argument when it came to the Euro, they did quite fairly warn that when you try and tie numerous different countries with different economies to the same central currency and interest rate then you're paving the way for disaster, and as we've seen when one country goes under it has massive ramifications for all the others as well which thankfully we avoided the worst of

[Livia]

Out. We do more business with the USA than we do with Europe, let's develop that. Also, we already have really close links with Commonwealth countries, links that have been forged for years so I'd rather concentrate on that. We would still export to Europe if we weren't members of the EU just like other non-EU countries do.

[joeysteele]

John Major as PM took the first steps in aligning the pound with the euro, and there was a subsequent run on the pound that was an unprecedented disaster. That link only lasted something like 24 hours and cost us a fortune. Thats why Gordon Brown wouldn't join the euro unless all the conditions of our economy were favourable - they never have been - says it all really. At some point in time, the majority of EU members are going to insist that we join the euro or leave the EU, can't see the conclusion being anything other than leaving, the only thing to be determined is timescale until it happens.

You are spot on as to John Major too, that was a total disaster as you point out.

I am not that sure however all the other Nations would insist the UK joined the Euro and you would have to probably have the agreement of all the Nations.

I think the EU would guess that would certainly trigger an in out referendum in the UK, if there hasn't been one before such time,and I don't myself believe now that the EU would want the UK to leave.

[kirklancaster]

Out. We do more business with the USA than we do with Europe, let's develop that. Also, we already have really close links with Commonwealth countries, links that have been forged for years so I'd rather concentrate on that. We would still export to Europe if we weren't members of the EU just like other non-EU countries do.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

Our membership of the EU has been nothing but an (embarrassing) unmitigated disaster for the UK. There is not ONE valid (truthful) argument for staying in.
Not ONE.

But here's one of the many for exiting as soon as possible:

TRADE DEFICIT:

(FROM THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE LORD STODDART OF SWINDON -Independent Labour)

"In response to a written question from the independent Labour Peer, Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Hansard 02.12.14), the Government has confirmed that the UK’s annual trade deficit with the EU has soared from £28.5 billion in 2010 to a colossal £56.5 billion in 2013*. (*This was 2013 - it has got even worse since)

Responding for the Government, the Minister of State at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Lord Livingston of Parkhead said: The UK’s trade deficit with the European Union was £28.5bn in 2010, £21.7bn in 2011, £39.5bn in 2012 and £56.2bn in 2013.

Commenting on the Government’s response, Lord Stoddart said: “This massive trade imbalance graphically demonstrates that more than 40 years of EU membership has done nothing for our economy and for jobs. It also demonstrates that the situation in recent years has dramatically deteriorated with the deficit very nearly doubling in just four years. It is quite clear that EU membership is a millstone around our country’s economic neck.”

[Northern Monkey]

Let's be real.Negotiating terms with Europe is a pointless excercise.You can't negotiate with the EU,You do what you are told and like it or lump it.It will never happen.
Britain needs to control it's own laws and borders and currency.We have no power or influence in the EU,Nothing to gain from being part of it.We will still trade with EU countries and non EU countries if we leave.Defo out for me.

[kirklancaster]

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

Our membership of the EU has been nothing but an (embarrassing) unmitigated disaster for the UK. There is not ONE valid (truthful) argument for staying in.
Not ONE.

But here's one of the many for exiting as soon as possible:

TRADE DEFICIT:

(FROM THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE LORD STODDART OF SWINDON -Independent Labour)

"In response to a written question from the independent Labour Peer, Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Hansard 02.12.14), the Government has confirmed that the UK’s annual trade deficit with the EU has soared from £28.5 billion in 2010 to a colossal £56.5 billion in 2013*. (*This was 2013 - it has got even worse since)

Responding for the Government, the Minister of State at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Lord Livingston of Parkhead said: The UK’s trade deficit with the European Union was £28.5bn in 2010, £21.7bn in 2011, £39.5bn in 2012 and £56.2bn in 2013.

Commenting on the Government’s response, Lord Stoddart said: “This massive trade imbalance graphically demonstrates that more than 40 years of EU membership has done nothing for our economy and for jobs. It also demonstrates that the situation in recent years has dramatically deteriorated with the deficit very nearly doubling in just four years. It is quite clear that EU membership is a millstone around our country’s economic neck.”

Wise old Independent Labour person.

[kirklancaster]

Let's be real.Negotiating terms with Europe is a pointless excercise.You can't negotiate with the EU,You do what you are told and like it or lump it.It will never happen.
Britain needs to control it's own laws and borders and currency.We have no power or influence in the EU,Nothing to gain from being part of it.We will still trade with EU countries and non EU countries if we leave.Defo out for me.

:clap1: More common sense and wisdom from The Eyeball.

[Kizzy]

I'm sorry but that says much more about the government since 2010 than Europe. We just don't have anything to export as we don't have the infrastructure we had.... you can't export things if you don't produce anything?
There hasn't been a trade surplus here since 81... when you know who sold everything we had pretty much.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't know, if we stay, we need to start accepting help offered aswell as paying in tbh

For example

http://rt.com/news/uk-refuses-eu-help-467/

What possible reason...

Tbf i would'nt believe much to come from RT.Russian propergana.The anti west slant on practically everything they report is ridiculous.Some of the crap they were spouting about Ukraine and how good Russia is and the evil west while Russia was piling troops and weaponary in and denying it and justifying the annexation of Crimea was ludicrous.

[Kizzy]

Oh no... it's true enough.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/17/government-under-fire-eu-funding-food-banks

If you want to see coverage of protests by our public services in London you have to get it from RT too, I don't know if that's anti west but the media block on it here is a bit antidemocratic.

[kirklancaster]

I'm sorry but that says much more about the government since 2010 than Europe. We just don't have anything to export as we don't have the infrastructure we had.... you can't export things if you don't produce anything?
There hasn't been a trade surplus here since 81... when you know who sold everything we had pretty much.

That is just not true. We have plenty to export and have performed increasingly admirably in exporting our goods to non-EU countries over the same period that our exports to other EU countries has constantly fallen:

"Analysis of Government statistics released in October shows the true size of the EU export market is far less than the 44 per cent* official total.

(Even this appallingly low figure is 'doctored' to appear higher than it actually is because it: "includes goods which go via ports in Belgium and the Netherlands, which are counted as exports to the EU despite them being merely in transit and immediately shipped off to other non-EU countries.")

While exports to the EU are in decline, business with the Commonwealth and Anglosphere markets such as the US, Australia and Hong Kong is booming.
Exports to the Commonwealth and the Anglosphere have reached 33 per cent of the UK total – up from 28 per cent in 1992.

The true export tally was uncovered by anti-EU campaign group Get Britain Out.

Spokesman Luke Stanley said: “These figures demonstrate how redundant our membership of the EU has become to the British economy.
“We must leave the EU now and press ahead arranging free trade agreements with our historic and cultural allies all across the globe.
“From the US and Canada in the west to India, Hong Kong and Australia in the east, the potential markets for an independent Britain’s exports are limitless.”

The export figures, released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS), highlight the decline of Britain’s trade with the other 27 countries in the EU.

The ONS statistics reveal how the 44 per cent figure is arrived at by counting in exports shipped to other countries via EU ports. (Hey diddle diddle just more EU fiddle)

Just to underscore what the above means; if 20% of the goods we export to NON-EU COUNTRIES have to pass THROUGH EU PORTS the bent EU RULES decree that such EXPORTS COUNT AS EXPORTS TO EU COUNTRIES EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT. Which would mean that we are only ACTUALLY EXPORTING 24% to EU COUNTRIES.

You could not make this up.

Ian Milne, chairman of anti-EU business pressure group Global Britain said: “The ONS, in the notes at the back of their annual ‘Pink Book’, draws readers’ attention to this statistical distortion.

“Global Britain has attempted to get the ONS, and their masters in Her Majesty’s Government, to address this anomaly, but the perennially Europhile HMG doesn’t want to know.

“It would be embarrassing to have to admit that they’d been overstating the importance of the EU to UK trade for years.”

Britain’s trade with the EU was one of Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg’s key arguments for staying in the organisation ahead of the European elections in May this year during his television debates with Ukip leader Nigel Farage, and Ukip trade spokesman William Dartmouth MEP said yesterday: “The UK’s rising exports to the Commonwealth and declining exports to the EU demonstrates that there is no economic reason at all for the UK to be in a political union with the low-growth economies of the Eurozone.

“Back in 1973 when we joined the then Common Market, we turned our backs on the Commonwealth. “It was a bad mistake then.

"Demonstrably, it is even more of a mistake in the 21st century.”

[Kizzy]

Where is all that text from, there is no link?

It is true there has been a deficit since 81.

[kirklancaster]

Where is all that text from, there is no link?

It is true there has been a deficit since 81.

My apologies - I am crap at this so don't often bother. Here goes;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/545174/Myth-importance-EU-trade-blown-apart-not-vital-to-Britain-economy

[Kizzy]

44% is a huge amount, even 36% is over a third based on this anti euro estimate.

Where is it written that it has to be either/ or, if we are trading now with the US, Australia and Hong Kong then what is to prevent that continuing?

[kirklancaster]

44% is a huge amount, even 36% is over a third based on this anti euro estimate.

Where is it written that it has to be either/ or, if we are trading now with the US, Australia and Hong Kong then what is to prevent that continuing?

There is nothing to stop us continuing to trade with non-EU countries, and the amount of trading we do with them will increase dramatically once we leave the EU and are free from all its restrictive trade policies.

And we will not have a £66 Billion trade deficit and we will not have to pay £10 billion PA for the privilege.

Not to mention taking back control of our own Justice system, borders, and Farming and Fishing policies and a dozen other elements of sovereignty various treacherous governments have signed away to Brussels.

[the truth]

Out. We do more business with the USA than we do with Europe, let's develop that. Also, we already have really close links with Commonwealth countries, links that have been forged for years so I'd rather concentrate on that. We would still export to Europe if we weren't members of the EU just like other non-EU countries do.

agreed. plus rising powers of china , India and Japan. We can still do business with Europe as normal we just don't want to be dictated by them nor have most of our laws drawn up by these faceless unelected unaccountable wasteful nonentities. nigel farage was right to challenge the European leader , herman van rompoy? with the simple question, who the heck are you? no one has ever heard of you, yet you preside over all of Europe? Thank goodness we kept the pound.

[the truth]

Let's be real.Negotiating terms with Europe is a pointless excercise.You can't negotiate with the EU,You do what you are told and like it or lump it.It will never happen.
Britain needs to control it's own laws and borders and currency.We have no power or influence in the EU,Nothing to gain from being part of it.We will still trade with EU countries and non EU countries if we leave.Defo out for me.

exactly. its the titanic. its too big it can be turned around it cant be changed, get off before it inevitably sinks....587 page constitution , what a sick joke

[the truth]

There is nothing to stop us continuing to trade with non-EU countries, and the amount of trading we do with them will increase dramatically once we leave the EU and are free from all its restrictive trade policies.

And we will not have a £66 Billion trade deficit and we will not have to pay £10 billion PA for the privilege.

Not to mention taking back control of our own Justice system, borders, and Farming and Fishing policies and a dozen other elements of sovereignty various treacherous governments have signed away to Brussels.

absolutely spot on and the only reason I ever liked farage in the first place he went to Brussels and he gave it to those dangerous wasteful clowns with both barrels. LETS GET THE HECK OUT OF THIS EU CATASTROPHE....OTHERS WILL SOON FOLLOW

[joeysteele]

Reading all this,it makes one wonder why the UK ever wanted to be in and why prime Minister after Prime Minister fought to get the UK into Europe in the first place.
We had all that is being said we could go back to above in posts and UK govts; knew or felt that was unsustainable likely.

It would not satisfy the needs we have now to go back to that.
To trade with the EU would likely cost us a great deal out of it rather than in it by other charges imposed on non EU members.
Also to trade with the EU then we would still have to at least probably accept the free movement of peoples from the EU countries still.

We are not this mighty power we once were, to go down roads of isolation and create ill feeling towards the UK even more from even the closest neighbours would be an act of ridiculous irrationality in my opinion.

Even our supposed strongest ally, the USA, would not want to see the UK out of the EU.

There are indeed many things bad about the EU, and also many things good, funny those who want to come out never mention the businesses that have had help from the EU, that maybe they would not have got from a UK govt;
Those who want out, would have us believe it is a totally negative thing for the UK to be in.
Never pointing out any advantage being in.
We should always be trying to reform the EU by building partnerships with the other Countries and thereby likely forcing changes of direction from within.
Something we could never have the slightest bit of influence as to if we were out, no matter what extra conditions were imposed on non EU members to continue trading with the EU.

There must have been big reasons we turned from how things were before and desperately kept pushing to get to be allowed to join Europe.
To leave now would in my view, make the UK a laughing a stock internationally and be really dangerous for both our economy and status,even moreso that a great many businesses here would hate to see the UK leave the UK too.

Go back to how it was before,not for me, over the decades far too many govts; and PMs and in the end the Nation didn't want things to stay that way and maybe for very good reasons too.

[the truth]

Reading all this,it makes one wonder why the UK ever wanted to be in and why prime Minister after Prime Minister fought to get the UK into Europe in the first place.
We had all that is being said we could go back to above in posts and UK govts; knew or felt that was unsustainable likely.

It would not satisfy the needs we have now to go back to that.
To trade with the EU would likely cost us a great deal out of it rather than in it by other charges imposed on non EU members.
Also to trade with the EU then we would still have to at least probably accept the free movement of peoples from the EU countries still.

We are not this mighty power we once were, to go down roads of isolation and create ill feeling towards the UK even more from even the closest neighbours would be an act of ridiculous irrationality in my opinion.

Even our supposed strongest ally, the USA, would not want to see the UK out of the EU.

There are indeed many things bad about the EU, and also many things good, funny those who want to come out never mention the businesses that have had help from the EU, that maybe they would not have got from a UK govt;
Those who want out, would have us believe it is a totally negative thing for the UK to be in.
Never pointing out any advantage being in.
We should always be trying to reform the EU by building partnerships with the other Countries and thereby likely forcing changes of direction from within.
Something we could never have the slightest bit of influence as to if we were out, no matter what extra conditions were imposed on non EU members to continue trading with the EU.

There must have been big reasons we turned from how things were before and desperately kept pushing to get to be allowed to join Europe.
To leave now would in my view, make the UK a laughing a stock internationally and be really dangerous for both our economy and status,even moreso that a great many businesses here would hate to see the UK leave the UK too.

Go back to how it was before,not for me, over the decades far too many govts; and PMs and in the end the Nation didn't want things to stay that way and maybe for very good reasons too.

1) were talking about leaving the union and the constitution. we can still trade
2) who cares what the US wants
3) why should we hand over our laws , our rules, regulations, our business practices, our sovereignty , our courts , our freedoms, our choices, our autonomy, our sheer identity, to unseen unknown unelected unaccountable unaccounted wasteful useless unproven eurocrats?
3)laughing stock? who cares. were we a laughing stock when we kept the pund and our own interest rates? whose the laughing stock now , us or Iceland, Portugal , italy , Greece, and many more? so peer pressure keeps us into this absurd obscene wasteful closed shop ? rubbish. the eurocrats were wrong about the euro and theyre wrong about the unreadable unworkable constitution that will bring all European economies to their knees and strangle us all.
4) get out and keep trading, others will soon follow.

[joeysteele]

1) were talking about leaving the union and the constitution. we can still trade
2) who cares what the US wants
3) why should we hand over our laws , our rules, regulations, our business practices, our sovereignty , our courts , our freedoms, our choices, our autonomy, our sheer identity, to unseen unknown unelected unaccountable unaccounted wasteful useless unproven eurocrats?
3)laughing stock? who cares. were we a laughing stock when we kept the pund and our own interest rates? whose the laughing stock now , us or Iceland, Portugal , italy , Greece, and many more? so peer pressure keeps us into this absurd obscene wasteful closed shop ? rubbish. the eurocrats were wrong about the euro and theyre wrong about the unreadable unworkable constitution that will bring all European economies to their knees and strangle us all.
4) get out and keep trading, others will soon follow.

The thread is about the EU in or out, therefore any observances as to the EU are relevant so don't tell me what I can comment on or not.

To trade with the EU outside, we will not have the terms the countries in the EU have or the direct access either,there will be costs as to that and we will have no control whatsover as to whatever costs the EU put on non EU members trading with the EU have inthe future,if we are out.
Businesses will likely have levies too as their trade with the EU if they are based in the UK and the UK is out.

We will still will have to accept free movement of EU citizens if we want to trade with the EU too,in or out, Switzerland trades with the EU and has to accept that,they recently took a voteas to should they stop accepting free movement of EU citizens and voted against stopping it, since that would probably then affect their trading with the EU.

Peopla against the EU, paint his rose coloured glasses picture of how great all could be out of the EU.
We never hear from them the pitfalls and things that could go wrong and in the end probably cost us more to be doing the same,if we were out.
It may well have been wrong to sing up to so much and sign some treaties in full, however more informed people as to the real benefits of the EU have done so and that is past.
It is ridiculous and petulant to now be saying we shouldn't have signed tis or that so we are going to run away and not play anymore.

Anything new, needs to be considered and maybe rejected but we shouldn't be damaging the present and future of the UK with arguments and possible errors of the past.

What a view to hold, who cares what the USA wants, we have Amercian companies in the UK,investing in the UK and employing milions in the UK.
They want that secure and steady access to the EU,do you really think they are going to want to risk their access to the EU and take on greater charges to have any access to the EU from their outlets in the UK,if we were out.
No they would keep likely bases here but move the bulk of their operations to another EU member country.
leaving the UK with a big problem that the ani EU brigade can never answer.
So the USA's opinion and in fact all countries who have investments here in the UK should be heard, such as the Japanese too.

I don't think we were a laughing stock to keep the pound and not join the Euro at all, it was a decision we insisted on and the EU obliged that desire to keep sterling and still leave the UK an EU member.
Which shows done right,the EU is accommodating since all other nations had to adopt the euro.
It could well happen that other countries decide they want their old currencies back if euro problems intensify again.
the germans have a good number who wnat the mark back now.
Those changes could come from inside the EU not out of it and anyway we are not even in the euro so why you make such a play on that is beyond me,there is not even any pressure from the EU for us to now even join it anyway.
With more and more countries wanting to join the EU,I think your visons of the whole thing collapsing is near impossible.

We are also a Nation made up of 4 separate countries, certainly 2 of them and probably 3 would not want in any way to leave the EU.
That should also be a massive factor to consider in any referendum vote taken.
It is just these little englanders that yearn for the days of the empire and think England particularly is so important it can take on anyone and everything and need no one else now.

Those days are well gone, no matter how great they may have been, the World is a very dangerous place now and if the UK,from its English sector,(and I was born and lived in Worcestershire until 5 years ago,before you insinuate I am not English), want to be separatist and pull away from things like the EU, casuing ill feeling between neighbouring european nations.
I think that threatens the UK both as to security and economically.

We should stay in,in my view, and work to reform the EU from inside, as we did when we won the right to keep the pound showed we can do, to leave the EU for me would be the worst act the UK could undertake and in the end a much bigger price could have to be eventuallypaid for doing so.
I cannot guarantee that wll be the case obviously but then too on the other side,if you were being fair, you could not in any way guarantee it wouldn't be the case either and for me that would be a leap into the dark too dangerous to take and a step too far as to the risks.

[Nedusa]

The thread is about the EU in or out, therefore any observances as to the EU are relevant so don't tell me what I can comment on or not.

To trade with the EU outside, we will not have the terms the countries in the EU have or the direct access either,there will be costs as to that and we will have no control whatsover as to whatever costs the EU put on non EU members trading with the EU have inthe future,if we are out.
Businesses will likely have levies too as their trade with the EU if they are based in the UK and the UK is out.

We will still will have to accept free movement of EU citizens if we want to trade with the EU too,in or out, Switzerland trades with the EU and has to accept that,they recently took a voteas to should they stop accepting free movement of EU citizens and voted against stopping it, since that would probably then affect their trading with the EU.

Peopla against the EU, paint his rose coloured glasses picture of how great all could be out of the EU.
We never hear from them the pitfalls and things that could go wrong and in the end probably cost us more to be doing the same,if we were out.
It may well have been wrong to sing up to so much and sign some treaties in full, however more informed people as to the real benefits of the EU have done so and that is past.
It is ridiculous and petulant to now be saying we shouldn't have signed tis or that so we are going to run away and not play anymore.

Anything new, needs to be considered and maybe rejected but we shouldn't be damaging the present and future of the UK with arguments and possible errors of the past.

What a view to hold, who cares what the USA wants, we have Amercian companies in the UK,investing in the UK and employing milions in the UK.
They want that secure and steady access to the EU,do you really think they are going to want to risk their access to the EU and take on greater charges to have any access to the EU from their outlets in the UK,if we were out.
No they would keep likely bases here but move the bulk of their operations to another EU member country.
leaving the UK with a big problem that the ani EU brigade can never answer.
So the USA's opinion and in fact all countries who have investments here in the UK should be heard, such as the Japanese too.

I don't think we were a laughing stock to keep the pound and not join the Euro at all, it was a decision we insisted on and the EU obliged that desire to keep sterling and still leave the UK an EU member.
Which shows done right,the EU is accommodating since all other nations had to adopt the euro.
It could well happen that other countries decide they want their old currencies back if euro problems intensify again.
the germans have a good number who wnat the mark back now.
Those changes could come from inside the EU not out of it and anyway we are not even in the euro so why you make such a play on that is beyond me,there is not even any pressure from the EU for us to now even join it anyway.
With more and more countries wanting to join the EU,I think your visons of the whole thing collapsing is near impossible.

We are also a Nation made up of 4 separate countries, certainly 2 of them and probably 3 would not want in any way to leave the EU.
That should also be a massive factor to consider in any referendum vote taken.
It is just these little englanders that yearn for the days of the empire and think England particularly is so important it can take on anyone and everything and need no one else now.

Those days are well gone, no matter how great they may have been, the World is a very dangerous place now and if the UK,from its English sector,(and I was born and lived in Worcestershire until 5 years ago,before you insinuate I am not English), want to be separatist and pull away from things like the EU, casuing ill feeling between neighbouring european nations.
I think that threatens the UK both as to security and economically.

We should stay in,in my view, and work to reform the EU from inside, as we did when we won the right to keep the pound showed we can do, to leave the EU for me would be the worst act the UK could undertake and in the end a much bigger price could have to be eventuallypaid for doing so.
I cannot guarantee that wll be the case obviously but then too on the other side,if you were being fair, you could not in any way guarantee it wouldn't be the case either and for me that would be a leap into the dark too dangerous to take and a step too far as to the risks.

No ...No... No

I agree with Truth on this, we should leave the EU immediately as it does not help the UK and has in my opinion been the main reason this Country is sinking fast.

From every viewpoint the EU is a monster, an uncontrolled expensive behemoth, a political organisation that has at it's heart a sinister ultimate agenda to make all European Countries divest their sovereignty to a faceless elite.

This was never what the European Union was meant to be, it was founded as a free trade movement and has been hi jacked to some quasi European super state.

I hate it, I hate the way we do not seem to have any say in what we do and what laws we can pass, I hate the obscene amounts of money we have to pay to keep other lazy,feckless countries afloat.

I really hate the uncontrolled and never ending immigration of peoples into this country some of whom actually want to destroy this country and kill it's citizens.

I hate the way they never integrate preferring to make their home country in our Country and fcuk the rest of us.

I hate the way the Health service has been used and abused by every Tom,Dick or Harry or should I say Mustapha,Mohammed or Ahmed. Our Health Service was never designed to give free healthcare to every sick person in the World.

I hate the way there are hundresd upon hundreds of dirty,lazy immigrants massing in Calais waiting to come over into the UK to bleed it dry. I also detest the way the French think it is not their problem and moan about the numbers and plead for the UK to take these filthy beggars.

We don't them - send them back to wherever the hell they came from.

This Country is Full and is creaking at the joints it cannot cope with anymore immigrants the roads are full, the hospitals are full, the Schools are full

the UK is full............please give us a break.

We need only to trade with Europe nothing more, open borders are a complete disaster for the UK, how more people cannot see that I don't know.

Vote for UKIP..........the only party that has at it's heart the pledge to try and tackle this madness...

-------------- Rant over----------------

[kirklancaster]

No ...No... No

I agree with Truth on this, we should leave the EU immediately as it does not help the UK and has in my opinion been the main reason this Country is sinking fast.

From every viewpoint the EU is a monster, an uncontrolled expensive behemoth, a political organisation that has at it's heart a sinister ultimate agenda to make all European Countries divest their sovereignty to a faceless elite.

This was never what the European Union was meant to be, it was founded as a free trade movement and has been hi jacked to some quasi European super state.

I hate it, I hate the way we do not seem to have any say in what we do and what laws we can pass, I hate the obscene amounts of money we have to pay to keep other lazy,feckless countries afloat.

I really hate the uncontrolled and never ending immigration of peoples into this country some of whom actually want to destroy this country and kill it's citizens.

I hate the way they never integrate preferring to make their home country in our Country and fcuk the rest of us.

I hate the way the Health service has been used and abused by every Tom,Dick or Harry or should I say Mustapha,Mohammed or Ahmed. Our Health Service was never designed to give free healthcare to every sick person in the World.

I hate the way there are hundresd upon hundreds of dirty,lazy immigrants massing in Calais waiting to come over into the UK to bleed it dry. I also detest the way the French think it is not their problem and moan about the numbers and plead for the UK to take these filthy beggars.

We don't them - send them back to wherever the hell they came from.

This Country is Full and is creaking at the joints it cannot cope with anymore immigrants the roads are full, the hospitals are full, the Schools are full

the UK is full............please give us a break.

We need only to trade with Europe nothing more, open borders are a complete disaster for the UK, how more people cannot see that I don't know.

Vote for UKIP..........the only party that has at it's heart the pledge to try and tackle this madness...

-------------- Rant over----------------

From one xenophobic, racist, pea-brained 'Little Englander' to another: :worship::worship::worship:

[Nedusa]

From one xenophobic, racist, pea-brained 'Little Englander' to another: :worship::worship::worship:

I very doubt that either of us are xenophobic,racist or pea-brained. I do think however that people in this Country have lost the ability to stand up and shout loudly when their quality of life is constantly denigrated to line the pockets of the rich and powerful.

Not wanting rampant uncontrolled immigration does not make anyone racist, even the label xenophobic is a little hard to apply as the problem is not with foreigners per se, but with the huge numbers of people who bring with them vastly differing cultures together with toxic religious beliefs (which drive their culture more or less).

The Cultural identity of large parts of most of our Cities have had the heart torn out of them in the last 50 years thanks to decisions taken by our Political paymasters, decisions which were never voted on by the GBP, in an effort to sustain or increase profit, we have had to watch the popoulation of this relatively tiny Island increase from 50 million in 1950 to 65 million today and the projection is it will hit 72 million by 2050.

In the same time frame our infrastructure has grown only slightly thus putting huge pressure on all of our services.

By highlighting these issues in no way am I displaying racism or xenophobia just common sense.

We need a moratorium on immigration for a few years and then strict limits or quotas allowing only people who can add benefit or quality into our Country.

As for the EU well this whole failed European project is just giving legitimacy to this very uncontrolled immigration and for that reason alone it has failed.

This is why people must vote UKIP not because there is a cat in hells chance they may get into power, but rather they might make the bigger parties see the will of the people and they may in turn examine their policies also.

[Livia]

A fine post, Nedusa.

[kirklancaster]

I very doubt that either of us are xenophobic,racist or pea-brained. I do think however that people in this Country have lost the ability to stand up and shout loudly when their quality of life is constantly denigrated to line the pockets of the rich and powerful.

Not wanting rampant uncontrolled immigration does not make anyone racist, even the label xenophobic is a little hard to apply as the problem is not with foreigners per se, but with the huge numbers of people who bring with them vastly differing cultures together with toxic religious beliefs (which drive their culture more or less).

The Cultural identity of large parts of most of our Cities have had the heart torn out of them in the last 50 years thanks to decisions taken by our Political paymasters, decisions which were never voted on by the GBP, in an effort to sustain or increase profit, we have had to watch the popoulation of this relatively tiny Island increase from 50 million in 1950 to 65 million today and the projection is it will hit 72 million by 2050.

In the same time frame our infrastructure has grown only slightly thus putting huge pressure on all of our services.

By highlighting these issues in no way am I displaying racism or xenophobia just common sense.

We need a moratorium on immigration for a few years and then strict limits or quotas allowing only people who can add benefit or quality into our Country.

As for the EU well this whole failed European project is just giving legitimacy to this very uncontrolled immigration and for that reason alone it has failed.

This is why people must vote UKIP not because there is a cat in hells chance they may get into power, but rather they might make the bigger parties see the will of the people and they may in turn examine their policies also.

I wholly agree with Livia that the above is "a fine post" (as usual) Nedusa, and - you know - that my use of: " xenophobic,racist or pea-brained" was sarcasm which would hopefully save certain of the pro-EU lobby from having to falsely claim as much.

[joeysteele]

No ...No... No

I agree with Truth on this, we should leave the EU immediately as it does not help the UK and has in my opinion been the main reason this Country is sinking fast.

From every viewpoint the EU is a monster, an uncontrolled expensive behemoth, a political organisation that has at it's heart a sinister ultimate agenda to make all European Countries divest their sovereignty to a faceless elite.

This was never what the European Union was meant to be, it was founded as a free trade movement and has been hi jacked to some quasi European super state.

I hate it, I hate the way we do not seem to have any say in what we do and what laws we can pass, I hate the obscene amounts of money we have to pay to keep other lazy,feckless countries afloat.

I really hate the uncontrolled and never ending immigration of peoples into this country some of whom actually want to destroy this country and kill it's citizens.

I hate the way they never integrate preferring to make their home country in our Country and fcuk the rest of us.

I hate the way the Health service has been used and abused by every Tom,Dick or Harry or should I say Mustapha,Mohammed or Ahmed. Our Health Service was never designed to give free healthcare to every sick person in the World.

I hate the way there are hundresd upon hundreds of dirty,lazy immigrants massing in Calais waiting to come over into the UK to bleed it dry. I also detest the way the French think it is not their problem and moan about the numbers and plead for the UK to take these filthy beggars.

We don't them - send them back to wherever the hell they came from.

This Country is Full and is creaking at the joints it cannot cope with anymore immigrants the roads are full, the hospitals are full, the Schools are full

the UK is full............please give us a break.

We need only to trade with Europe nothing more, open borders are a complete disaster for the UK, how more people cannot see that I don't know.

Vote for UKIP..........the only party that has at it's heart the pledge to try and tackle this madness...

-------------- Rant over----------------

Good you must agree with who you like,but you are wrong,in part, sadly.

As with Switzerland, who are not a member of the EU but trade with the EU, they still have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also other conditions imposed by the EU, that since they are out, they can do nothing about.

It will firstly cost us more to trade with the EU, businesses here will have to pay more to trade with the EU because they in a non EU country.

If you think that will not have repercussions against the UK and harm the UK, fine you go for it and believe all the negative UKIP rhetoric.

You will find not much will change however,if the UK wants to trade with the EU.
We will save whatever we pay in annually to the EU's budget, however we will be paying well over the odds afterwards to trade with them and have no say at all as to any of it once out.

If we came out and didn't want to trade with the EU,that would make more sense.
However in that case,with no access to the EU markets then, seriously how many businesses and other investing countries do you really think would want to come to the UK then and how many investments and businesses here because we are in the EU, do you really seriously think would stay if we were out totally.
I'd say virutally 'none'.

Coming out but having in place a trading agreement will leave us having to accept still strict EU conditions as to same, and also the free movement of EU citizens still too.
'That is a fact' that UKIP want the voters to overlook.
Anyway, you and I will never agree on the EU but I for one, have no wish whatsoever to take such a gamble with 'all' the countries of the UKs' future like that and create all that uncertainty either.

[Nedusa]

Good you must agree with who you like,but you are wrong,in part, sadly.

As with Switzerland, who are not a member of the EU but trade with the EU, they still have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also other conditions imposed by the EU, that since they are out, they can do nothing about.

It will fristly cost us more to trade with the EU, businesses her will have to pay more to trade with the EU because they in a non EU country.

If you think that will not have repercussions against the UK and harm the UK, fine you go for it and believe all the negative UKIP rhetoric.

You will find not much will change however,if the UK wants to trade with the EU.
We will save whatever we pay in annually to the EU's budget, however we will be paying well over the odds afterwards to trade with them and have no say at all as to any of it once out.

If we came out and didn't want to trade with the EU,that would make more sense.
However in that case,with no access to the EU markets then, seriously how many businesses and other investing countries do you really think would want to come to the UK then and how many investments and businesses here because we are in the EU, do you really seriously think would stay if we were out totally.
I'd say virutally 'none'.

Coming out but having in place a trading agreement will leave us having to accept still strict EU conditions as to same, and also the free movement of EU citizens still too.
'That is a fact' that UKIP want the voters to overlook.
Anyway, you and I will never agree on the EU but I for one, have no wish whatsoever to take such a gamble with 'all' the countries of the UKs' future like that and create all that uncertainty either.

Do you think that if we did exit the EU things could actually get any worse..?

I for one think the pro Europe contingent have had 40 years to show being in the EU has made Britain a wealthier, healthier and happier place.

I suspect sadly they have failed.

[joeysteele]

Do you think that if we did exit the EU things could actually get any worse..?

I for one think the pro Europe contingent have had 40 years to show being in the EU has made Britain a wealthier, healthier and happier place.

I suspect sadly they have failed.

I firmly and 100% believe that if we left the EU after all this time, then yes things would get a great deal worse.

The UK is not a wealthier place due to the incompetence of govts;over the decades in the main, not planning right and doing right a fair bit of the time.
Also, govt; have often failed to win the best terms possible from the EU on several issues.

Not the EU's fault totally, most times they have never likely been asked for change.
However to walk away now, with all the uncertainty that would entail as I said before is not a risk I would support for Northen Ireland's, Scotland's Wales and England's long term futures.no way.

[kirklancaster]

Do you think that if we did exit the EU things could actually get any worse..?

I for one think the pro Europe contingent have had 40 years to show being in the EU has made Britain a wealthier, healthier and happier place.

I suspect sadly they have failed.

'Tis but more; "Gonna" and "Woulda" after 40 long years of "Coulda" and "Shoulda".

We were taken in (nice phrase that) by politicians with covert vested interests, have been kept in by politicians with covert vested interests, and it is politicians with covert vested interests who are still striving to keep us in - in face of the irrefutable evidence of 40 years of unmitigated and soon to be irreparable damage which being 'in' has done to this country.

I am not LABOUR. I am not TORY. I am not UKIP or GREEN or LIB DEM. So therefore, I am not blindly slavish to any political party nor therefore to any fixed ideologies.

I weigh up the evidence. Cross check the supposed 'facts'. Examine policies and manifestos. Then - before making my mind up, I USE MY KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRACK RECORDS OF THE PRINCIPLES and USE MY PERSONAL DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE ACTUAL POLICIES OF THE GOVERNING PARTY HAVE DONE TO THIS COUNTRY. (Or what the policies of successive governments have done to it).

Our criticisms of the governments of the past 40 years are based on actual HISTORICAL EVIDENCE. Our detractors criticisms of NIGEL FARAGE and UKIP are based on PERSONAL PREJUDICE, naive acceptance of PROPAGANDA, and on an IRRATIONAL DECLARATION OF WHAT HE WILL DO IN THE FUTURE.

It's laughable and ironic, that certain of the most voracious exponents of the above 'anti-Farage' sooth-sayers, are the very same who decry God and Religion because there is no 'scientific' proof for them.

SOOTHSAYING and PREDICTION is OBVIOUSLY different though when it comes to Farage's FUTURE actions. .

[empire]

the eu is collapsing, and the left wing are living in cuckoo land, in greece the people are looking through rubbish bins for food, economists have warned britain that we need to leave the eu state, or face being bankrupt,

[Northern Monkey]

exactly. its the titanic. its too big it can be turned around it cant be changed, get off before it inevitably sinks....587 page constitution , what a sick joke

A good analogy

[Northern Monkey]

Stay in the EU and have no control over our borders,Have them dictate our laws and eventually make us lose our currency and have no power to change European policies
Or
Leave the EU and take back our borders,The power to govern our country as we see fit,create our own laws,keep our currency and still have no power to change European policies
Hmm....

[MTVN]

Was hearing about this report on the news tonight, from Open Europe a group who are frequently critical of the EU and the way it is managed:

Britain will be forced to have even more open borders if it leaves the European Union or face losing up to £55 billion a year by 2030 - a sum that could trigger a recession, a comprehensive analysis has found.

In a boost for David Cameron's case for reforming the EU, the Open Europe think tank has found that Britain could lose 2.2 per cent of its GDP in the event that it closes its borders following a "hostile" exit from the EU.

The analysis suggests that Britain will only enjoy significant benefits after leaving Europe if it retains freedom of movement with the EU, commits to free trade and cuts regulations to an extent that would make "Margaret Thatcher look like a socialist".

The report represents a significant challenge to Nigel Farage's demands for Britain to leave Europe while supporting David Cameron's position.

Mr Cameron is attempting to reform Britain's relationship with the European Union ahead of a proposed referendum in 2017.

The report says that if the European Union "manages to overcome its current economic problems" and carry out reforms then "the cost of Brexit relative to remaining within the EU will be higher".

Matts Persson, director of Open Europe, said Mr Farage faces some "very difficult political decisions".

He said: "You have some questions to answer about exactly what you want to see. Is it a free trading, Hong Kong Britain with very Liberal politics including on migration or is it what probably most of your [Ukip] voters want, to shut the borders and shut the world out which would mean a loss in terms of Britain's GDP and economic competitiveness?"

Full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11488906/EU-exit-will-cost-Britain-55billion-unless-borders-are-kept-open.html

[Z]

I think in theory the EU is a brilliant idea. European nations have long ceased to be a major source of power in the world so it makes sense for them all to club together to wield their collective knowledge and might to match the US, Russia, China et al in the international arena.

The reality is that what started out as an economic union quickly turned into a highly political way of amputating countries from the former USSR's grasp to the point where too many cooks are spoiling the broth, nothing is getting done and the EU has stopped being about the collective trading might of various western European nations and has instead become this pseudo-political collection of countries who can't function as a whole, they function as 28 individual pieces; whose sole purpose seems to be to expand and try and improve the standard of living of its poorest members.

That in itself is a noble thing - try and unite Europe and improve the lives of all. But it's not what the EU is for and it's not what I want to be a part of. I think the EU needs to be restarted and modernised, completely. It should be an effective one voice for Europe. Member states need to stop doing bilateral deals with outsiders; we need to start acting as a whole. The UK leaving the EU is the political equivalent of throwing a tantrum - we'd be quitting to show our dissatisfaction but we'd have nowhere to go. The USA won't have us and it's in nobody's interests to go wade into another Middle Eastern cluster**** as the blind sidekick of Team America. We're more or less solely responsible for a large part of the world's poorest nations and their problems thanks to the British Empire, internationally we are not a liked nation. What we need is to enter into a trading powerhouse with Germany, France, the BeNeLux nations and maybe the Scandinavian nations too. That's about it - the rest of Europe is plagued with poverty and is economic deadweight - tourism driven economies won't help us be taken seriously on the international stage.

Let the EU remain a union for European countries to talk about how European they all are and then go behind each other's backs. Let's get a new version of it, a copy of the original, for making effective economic strides. That's what we need.

[Kizzy]

There is nothing to stop us continuing to trade with non-EU countries, and the amount of trading we do with them will increase dramatically once we leave the EU and are free from all its restrictive trade policies.

And we will not have a £66 Billion trade deficit and we will not have to pay £10 billion PA for the privilege.

Not to mention taking back control of our own Justice system, borders, and Farming and Fishing policies and a dozen other elements of sovereignty various treacherous governments have signed away to Brussels.

Is taking a seat in the WTO free and without proviso?

[lostalex]

no UK leader wants out of the EU because they know it will harm relations with the US. we are your greatest ally, but if you leave the Eu you will greatly reduce the influence you can have on world affairs.

The UK will not be as important to the US unless it is a major EU player.

The US will turn to Germany as it's major European ally if the Uk leaves the EU.

The UK has enjoyed favored son status in Europe BECAUSE of your relationship with the US, if you lose favor with the US you will lose most of your power in the region and the world.

If the UK leaves the EU i could even imagine the UK losing it's permanent security council status at the UN. the US might back India or Brazil to replace the UK at the UN.
Would the UK destroy relationships with both the US, and all the EU nations, just because there are a few too many polish people taking jobs, or a few too many romanians committing crimes?

No UK leader would ever risk that. You will not leave the EU.

You need the the US too much and you need the EU too much, and if you left the EU, you'd burn both bridges. I don't see how it would benefit the UK in any way.

[Livia]

It will make not a scrap of difference to the US. Furthermore, you're quite mistaken if you think that the US's stance on the EU will have any bearing on whether people here vote in or out.

[lostalex]

It will make not a scrap of difference to the US. Furthermore, you're quite mistaken if you think that the US's stance on the EU will have any bearing on whether people here vote in or out.

If the UK ceases to have real political power in Europe Livia,(which it will if it leaves the EU) \Do you really think the US will value the relationship? if so, why?

What else would the UK have to offer>? Germany would clearly become our best bet in Europe if you leave the EU.

Do you honestly think America would be such a strong UK ally if the UK has no power on the continent? for what?

The US has made clear in the last decade that we are not as impressed with the UK or Israel for that matter on the world stage.

our patience can only be stretched so thin, and i believe that leaving the EU would be the straw.

[Livia]

It's not up to the USA Alex, it's up to the British public. If the Tories get in, and if we do have a referendum, the very last thing on most people's minds will be, I wonder if the USA will be okay with this?

Your last sentence made me smile. Your patience? YOUR patience?? LOL... You overestimate the influence the USA has on the average Joe in the street here. We like your films, some of your music is okay... well done on having a black president. And butt out of our affairs.

[lostalex]

It's not up to the USA Alex, it's up to the British public. If the Tories get in, and if we do have a referendum, the very last thing on most people's minds will be, I wonder if the USA will be okay with this?

Your last sentence made me smile. Your patience? YOUR patience?? LOL... You overestimate the influence the USA has on the average Joe in the street here. We like your films, some of your music is okay... well done on having a black president. And butt out of our affairs.

if it's really up to the british people, so be it. but there's a reason the past leaders have held so close to the USA. Do you honestly believe that the UK would be as influential as powerful if it wasn't for the US backing and interest in having a strong ally IN EUROPE?

if you think the US just likes the UK, or because we speak the same language you'd be mistaken.

Germany and Japan and the UK are America's greatest allies in the world, and we conquered all of them in previous wars.

If you go it alone, don't expect the same benefits that being a strong ally of the US gave you before. I don't think most Brits appreciate that all that you have, the power you have in your region, and the economic prosperity are really al because of America's support. The rest of Europe hates you, but they still respect you because you have the USA standing behind you.

I wonder what the UK will look like to the world when you don't have the Giant USA standing directly behind you.

And how will you feel when that giant is instead standing behind Brussels?

[Kizzy]

The UK is becoming the nana nobody wants over at Christmas.

[lostalex]

I don't believe the political elite would ever allow a true separation from the EU. The fact that you were allowed to keep your own currency was an incredible priviledge to begin with.

Leaving the EU would be suicide for the UK.

Ofcourse the greatest trick would be if then the SNP passed their independence referendum and scotland joined the EU. then England would be left in the cold. That would be hilarious.

[the truth]

uk would be far stronger out of the current eu mess....the whole thing needs to be torn up
if we left lots would follow
just look at the state of it? 3 eu member countries have youth unemployment at over 50%? Italy overall unemployment is 23% france a so called giant has double to 11%....spain 12.6% .......growth is non existent

the ONLY economies doing ok are Germany and uk....but UK has CREATED MORE JOBS THAN THE REST OF EUROPE PUT TOGETHER IN THE LAST YEAR ...THATS WHAT AN UTTER FAILURE THE EU AND THE EURO REALLY IS
only the germans can work it as they control it all....but even their growth is poor as is their job creations and they are getting saddled with carrying the endless countries going bankrupt from Greece to Italy to Iceland and Portugal and spain and beyond..
the US constitution is a healthy 13 pages and was written before the states all merged...this nightmare is 587 pages of laws and is attempting to stream line 30 odd countries 500 million odd people with histories stretching back 1000s of years with different laws climates currencies cultures religions ways fo life qualities of life different strengths different weaknesses different skills different everything. its utterly insane you may as well go for a one world government. INSANE

[Livia]

I don't believe the political elite would ever allow a true separation from the EU. The fact that you were allowed to keep your own currency was an incredible priviledge to begin with.

Leaving the EU would be suicide for the UK.

Ofcourse the greatest trick would be if then the SNP passed their independence referendum and scotland joined the EU. then England would be left in the cold. That would be hilarious.

Why would that be hilarious, Alex? If you hate us so much, why are you here?

Incidentally, the Scots voted to stay in the Union, you might have missed that.

Actually, that's all I've got to say to you on this. You have a really hazy grasp on the EU and what you're saying is just making you seem hilarious.

[Nedusa]

uk would be far stronger out of the current eu mess....the whole thing needs to be torn up
if we left lots would follow
just look at the state of it? 3 eu member countries have youth unemployment at over 50%? Italy overall unemployment is 23% france a so called giant has double to 11%....spain 12.6% .......growth is non existent

the ONLY economies doing ok are Germany and uk....but UK has CREATED MORE JOBS THAN THE REST OF EUROPE PUT TOGETHER IN THE LAST YEAR ...THATS WHAT AN UTTER FAILURE THE EU AND THE EURO REALLY IS
only the germans can work it as they control it all....but even their growth is poor as is their job creations and they are getting saddled with carrying the endless countries going bankrupt from Greece to Italy to Iceland and Portugal and spain and beyond..
the US constitution is a healthy 13 pages and was written before the states all merged...this nightmare is 587 pages of laws and is attempting to stream line 30 odd countries 500 million odd people with histories stretching back 1000s of years with different laws climates currencies cultures religions ways fo life qualities of life different strengths different weaknesses different skills different everything. its utterly insane you may as well go for a one world government. INSANE

Have to agree with all of this............in fact our hand may be forced if the Greeks leave the EU , as this may start a domino effect with Portugal and possibly even Italy seeking better terms and ultimately defaulting.

In fact they may not even be much of an EU left for the UK to leave if things go really bad.

I bet in those circumstances David Cameron would not be able to offer the GBP a referendum quickly enough.

As you say in your post to try and control such a diverse number of Countries/cultures/religions etc... is practically impossible and once one Country leaves the writing I fear is on the wall.

Irrespective of what happens within the EU I still stand by my own view that we (UK) need to get out and get out now.

[joeysteele]

if it's really up to the british people, so be it. but there's a reason the past leaders have held so close to the USA. Do you honestly believe that the UK would be as influential as powerful if it wasn't for the US backing and interest in having a strong ally IN EUROPE?

if you think the US just likes the UK, or because we speak the same language you'd be mistaken.

Germany and Japan and the UK are America's greatest allies in the world, and we conquered all of them in previous wars.

If you go it alone, don't expect the same benefits that being a strong ally of the US gave you before. I don't think most Brits appreciate that all that you have, the power you have in your region, and the economic prosperity are really al because of America's support. The rest of Europe hates you, but they still respect you because you have the USA standing behind you.

I wonder what the UK will look like to the world when you don't have the Giant USA standing directly behind you.

And how will you feel when that giant is instead standing behind Brussels?


I wouldn't worry Lostalex and I agree that the USA would look to 'an' or other countries in the EU for future investments and setting up businesses there if the UK left the EU.

However we will not leave the EU because no govt; in the UK will hold a referendum at a time where the result looked too close to call or that the vote would result in a no to staying in.

It doesn't matter who we elect in May, even if it is the Conservatives,there will be 'no' referendum because I believe David Cameron,the well known political liar and con man,has no intention of ever holding one at all no matter what he says.

He will not hold one in any event even if he got his best possible result in the election and had an overall majority'
However he will not get an overal majority,he may be the largest party but even then he has his answer ready.
He has clearly said he would only hold an in out referendum if, 'he and the Conservatives' got an overall majority.

There is no referendum at all on the horizon for UK voters, unless they elected a UKIP govt; with an overall majority.
They are all being conned again by David Cameron and I hope more and more voters realise just how slippery he is as to his promises by polling day too.

You are right, the USA is the UK's strongest ally, the USA has repeatedly said, the UK should remain in the EU.
It is clear they could turn from the UK were we to leave as you point out.

I myself prefer to follow the guidance of the USA on this one, at least the USA is looking forward and not stuck in a rut looking backwards like,in the main 'the south' of England,'I stress England', because the rest of the UK is more forward looking too.

[user104658]

if it's really up to the british people, so be it. but there's a reason the past leaders have held so close to the USA. Do you honestly believe that the UK would be as influential as powerful if it wasn't for the US backing and interest in having a strong ally IN EUROPE?

if you think the US just likes the UK, or because we speak the same language you'd be mistaken.

Germany and Japan and the UK are America's greatest allies in the world, and we conquered all of them in previous wars.

If you go it alone, don't expect the same benefits that being a strong ally of the US gave you before. I don't think most Brits appreciate that all that you have, the power you have in your region, and the economic prosperity are really al because of America's support. The rest of Europe hates you, but they still respect you because you have the USA standing behind you.

I wonder what the UK will look like to the world when you don't have the Giant USA standing directly behind you.

And how will you feel when that giant is instead standing behind Brussels?
Hold on hold on...

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you're saying but...

In which war did the US "conquer" the UK?? :joker:

[the truth]

ok guys lets all go bankrupt so baraack Obama will still call us twice a year lol
ps the EU was set up to get rid of red tape lol hows that worked out?

[empire]

A polish pm said that, the british people should be made to pay child benefit to polish children in poland, same time we are forced to work longer, and are pensions will pay for that, its a fact, britain will gain nothing being in the eu state, socialism only works when you run out of other peoples money, when the uk leaves the eu, where will it get money for its eastern block countries, it is unfair that we can't have a vote to stay or go,

[lostalex]

Hold on hold on...

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you're saying but...

In which war did the US "conquer" the UK?? :joker:

The Revolutionary War (the american war of independence), we conquered most of your north american colonies.

[lostalex]

Really, most of the complaints are based around the idea that Britain is a rich, prosperous powerful country in Europe, but you don't want to subsidize or pay for the weaker countries in the EU.

Well the same could be said about the richest states in the US having to subsidize the poorest states, especially the south, especially because we disagree with them politically and see them as backwards and not in line with our morals.

But i don't think the US should reject our Union just because we have some very poor backwards states. Do i get annoyed and dismayed by having Alabama and Lousianna and Mississippi in the union sometimes? yes. but it's still better that we keep our union together.

The EU has similar backwards, poor states. but you have to take the good with the bad.

The UK should be proud it is one of the most prosperous states in the EU, just like California should be proud of being a prosperous state of the US, but i would never vote for my state, California, to leave the USA. I value the diversity of the USA, even though sometimes it confuses me, or even disgusts me, i know that California is still part of the USA, and this much larger land, and it benefits everyone to try to be connected with the other states on my continent.

I see countries like UK, France, Germany, as successful states, like California, New York, Florida. Yes the strongest states have to pay a little bit more than their fair share. But it's worth it in the end.

[kirklancaster]

A polish pm said that, the british people should be made to pay child benefit to polish children in poland, same time we are forced to work longer, and are pensions will pay for that, its a fact, britain will gain nothing being in the eu state, socialism only works when you run out of other peoples money, when the uk leaves the eu, where will it get money for its eastern block countries, it is unfair that we can't have a vote to stay or go,


Asabsurd and unbelievable as it may seem Empire; this is not a PROPOSAL, it is a fact - an actual reality which has been ongoing since we joined the EU.

Britain must stop paying £80 child benefit to children in Poland when they get only £18 back home, says Nick Clegg

Deputy Prime Minister orders officials to find a way to cut costs
Child benefit paid to EU working in Britain even if families are abroad
Tories want to scrap the payment as part of wide-ranging EU reform
Until then Lib Dem Clegg wants to cut payments to equal home countries

Polish parents who claim child benefit for their families in their home country should not receive the same amount as British workers, Nick Clegg said today.
The Deputy Prime Minister has ordered officials to find a legal way to slash the ‘absurd’ payments made for children who do not live in the UK.
He said it was not fair that Britain pays £80-a-month per child, but in Poland child benefit is worth only £18.

Nick Clegg wants Britain to stop paying UK rates for child benefit for children who live in countries where the rates are lower
Under EU rules, the benefit has to be paid to European nationals who are working in Britain and paying National Insurance – even if their families are based abroad.
There are around 24,000 families claiming for 38,500 children, with two-thirds of the children based in Poland.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2832998/Britain-stop-paying-80-child-benefit-Polish-children-18-home-says-Nick-

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/13/1415882144615_wps_8_Picture_Device_Independen.jpg

Just one of a hundred of reasons why we should exit the crazy, corrupt EU as soon as possible. No wonder the Polish Economy is in a far stronger state than this fecked up country's:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/140336/mitchell-a-orenstein/six-markets-to-watch-poland

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-11-27/how-poland-became-europes-most-dynamic-economy

[joeysteele]

Really, most of the complaints are based around the idea that Britain is a rich, prosperous powerful country in Europe, but you don't want to subsidize or pay for the weaker countries in the EU.

Well the same could be said about the richest states in the US having to subsidize the poorest states, especially the south, especially because we disagree with them politically and see them as backwards and not in line with our morals.

But i don't think the US should reject our Union just because we have some very poor backwards states. Do i get annoyed and dismayed by having Alabama and Lousianna and Mississippi in the union sometimes? yes. but it's still better that we keep our union together.

The EU has similar backwards, poor states. but you have to take the good with the bad.

The UK should be proud it is one of the most prosperous states in the EU, just like California should be proud of being a prosperous state of the US, but i would never vote for my state, California, to leave the USA. I value the diversity of the USA, even though sometimes it confuses me, or even disgusts me, i know that California is still part of the USA, and this much larger land, and it benefits everyone to try to be connected with the other states on my continent.

I see countries like UK, France, Germany, as successful states, like California, New York, Florida. Yes the strongest states have to pay a little bit more than their fair share. But it's worth it in the end.

Good one Lostalex,very thought provoking post, I agree with it all again.

[kirklancaster]

Really, most of the complaints are based around the idea that Britain is a rich, prosperous powerful country in Europe, but you don't want to subsidize or pay for the weaker countries in the EU.

Well the same could be said about the richest states in the US having to subsidize the poorest states, especially the south, especially because we disagree with them politically and see them as backwards and not in line with our morals.

But i don't think the US should reject our Union just because we have some very poor backwards states. Do i get annoyed and dismayed by having Alabama and Lousianna and Mississippi in the union sometimes? yes. but it's still better that we keep our union together.

The EU has similar backwards, poor states. but you have to take the good with the bad.

The UK should be proud it is one of the most prosperous states in the EU, just like California should be proud of being a prosperous state of the US, but i would never vote for my state, California, to leave the USA. I value the diversity of the USA, even though sometimes it confuses me, or even disgusts me, i know that California is still part of the USA, and this much larger land, and it benefits everyone to try to be connected with the other states on my continent.

I see countries like UK, France, Germany, as successful states, like California, New York, Florida. Yes the strongest states have to pay a little bit more than their fair share. But it's worth it in the end.

We are (supposedly) part of a European Union but we are not the 'UNITED STATES OF EUROPE'.

[the truth]

Asabsurd and unbelievable as it may seem Empire; this is not a PROPOSAL, it is a fact - an actual reality which has been ongoing since we joined the EU.

Britain must stop paying £80 child benefit to children in Poland when they get only £18 back home, says Nick Clegg

Deputy Prime Minister orders officials to find a way to cut costs
Child benefit paid to EU working in Britain even if families are abroad
Tories want to scrap the payment as part of wide-ranging EU reform
Until then Lib Dem Clegg wants to cut payments to equal home countries

Polish parents who claim child benefit for their families in their home country should not receive the same amount as British workers, Nick Clegg said today.
The Deputy Prime Minister has ordered officials to find a legal way to slash the ‘absurd’ payments made for children who do not live in the UK.
He said it was not fair that Britain pays £80-a-month per child, but in Poland child benefit is worth only £18.

Nick Clegg wants Britain to stop paying UK rates for child benefit for children who live in countries where the rates are lower
Under EU rules, the benefit has to be paid to European nationals who are working in Britain and paying National Insurance – even if their families are based abroad.
There are around 24,000 families claiming for 38,500 children, with two-thirds of the children based in Poland.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2832998/Britain-stop-paying-80-child-benefit-Polish-children-18-home-says-Nick-

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/13/1415882144615_wps_8_Picture_Device_Independen.jpg

Just one of a hundred of reasons why we should exit the crazy, corrupt EU as soon as possible. No wonder the Polish Economy is in a far stronger state than this fecked up country's:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/140336/mitchell-a-orenstein/six-markets-to-watch-poland

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-11-27/how-poland-became-europes-most-dynamic-economy

that's horrific.....add the fact foreign visitors don't even need health insurance when visiting the uk LIKE ALL OTHER CIVILIZED NATIONS ON EARTH? how many billions is this every year? aids victims treated, 60% are non british? the list goes on and on

ps USA was formed by a 13 page constitution from its outset, European nations are thousands of years old within enfinite more laws, cultures, histories, heritage, different cultures skills economies etc trying to force these 30 to 40 nations together as 1 is insane and unworkable, as proved by the unreadable 587 page constitution compared to the usa's simple 13 page document....apples and oranges

[Vicky.]

Hold up, why the hell do we pay child benefit to kids who dont live here? :suspect: I always thought that was an anti-immigration type myth D:

[Helen 28]

Hold up, why the hell do we pay child benefit to kids who dont live here? :suspect: I always thought that was an anti-immigration type myth D:

EU rule that we obey to the letter, any EU citizen is entitled to claim child benefit for any amount of kids anywhere in Europe.

That is stupid enough but this country does no checks on eligibility, they reckon the cost outweighs the benefits.

[Kizzy]

So what's the solution...

Wait for Poland to raise their child benefit and wages in line with ours, reduce ours or restrict movement?

[kirklancaster]

Hold up, why the hell do we pay child benefit to kids who dont live here? :suspect: I always thought that was an anti-immigration type myth D:

I KNEW IT!!!! You are all CONNED by misinformation and lies Vicky, but you do not know a hundreth of the truth about the EU and the cost to this country of the EU's ENFORCED OPEN DOOR IMMIGRATION POLICIES.

YES - the above is not only the truth Vicky but the figures are from 2012 so the amount of money being LEECHED from this country by immigrants milking the system is now much, much worse.

Watch this space now because I feel it is important to air the truth so no one is kept in the dark.

The net cost to this country of EU membership is between £15 to £20 billion PER YEAR and all the BS the pro-EU brigade post is propaganda.

Would you believe this:

Tens of millions of pounds have been paid to Immigrants who applied to come here by way of £10,000 payments NOT to come.
A lot of the applicants accepted the £10K then came anyway.
A lot of those who accepted the £10K then came anyway, left for home again after a few months here then made another application to return here and.....

YES BINGO ... They were paid another £10K NOT to come and .....
A lot of the applicants who did this then came anyway.

AND THERE WAS NO LIMIT TO THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THESE BASTARDS PASSED GO AND COLLECTED £10,000.

(I will now wait for the usual protests that I am lying. )

[kirklancaster]

So what's the solution...

Wait for Poland to raise their child benefit and wages in line with ours, reduce ours or restrict movement?

GET OUT OF THE EU AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, then we can start to manage our own finances and laws and borders - something we were once so capabable of for thousands of years.

TRIDENT, THE NHS and our CONVENTIONAL MILITARY could be rescued and elevated to positions of excellence with the help of the incredible amounts of money saved by exiting the farcical EU.

The loss of TRADE MARKETS and other claimed disadvantages to exiting are just B.S.

[Kizzy]

According to the CBI that amount is chickenfeed offset against the free trade agreement.
You have to weigh up the pros and cons. They may amend the way benefits are claimed that does not however make that issue a reason to leave the EU altogether.
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

http://www.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

[kirklancaster]

According to the CBI that amount is chickenfeed offset against the free trade agreement.
You have to weigh up the pros and cons. They may amend the way benefits are claimed that does not however make that issue a reason to leave the EU altogether.
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

http://www.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

In have not time at the moment but will address this with links to articles which rebut this. But this issue IS DEFINITELY a reason to leave the EU altogether - NOT THE REASON but A REASON.

[Kizzy]

GET OUT OF THE EU AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, then we can start to manage our own finances and laws and borders - something we were once so capabable of for thousands of years.

TRIDENT, THE NHS and our CONVENTIONAL MILITARY could be rescued and elevated to positions of excellence with the help of the incredible amounts of money saved by exiting the farcical EU.

The loss of TRADE MARKETS and other claimed disadvantages to exiting are just B.S.

Oh I can see it now, stuff the EU ..stuff Scotland and wherever else that want to remain in. Little Britain rules OK?
We will have to join some trade organisation... take a seat in the WTO maybe, and what will that entail? Will that mean agreements regarding freedom of movement..freedom for people worldwide to access our services and welfare system?
I don't think that anyone who wants out of the EU fully understands what the alternatives will be, I have heard not one scenario that would be of any benefit, or satisfy the concerns that are currently held regarding our place in Europe.
It will only serve to alienate us from our closest neighbours and allies, those with whom we have the closest geographical,cultural and dare I say it religious ties.

[Vicky.]

So what's the solution...

Wait for Poland to raise their child benefit and wages in line with ours, reduce ours or restrict movement?

Well I would say...only pay child benefit to those who live in the country its being claimed from ?

[Vicky.]

Then again, I'm guessing thats not our choice to make...

[bots]

Its right and proper that welfare should be available across the union (after a minimum term of residency) The way to ensure that payments were only made for children living here would be to check regularly that they were indeed in this country. However, our services are already stretched, and if they spend their time checking details like this, other more critical areas will suffer.

[Northern Monkey]

Hold up, why the hell do we pay child benefit to kids who dont live here? :suspect: I always thought that was an anti-immigration type myth D:

Because the EU says we have to.....

[Vicky.]

Because the EU says we have to.....

I don't understand it though..why can't these kids get child benefit in the country they live in? Does this mean that technically we could be made to pay CB for every kid in europe simply because our benefits are higher than theirs? :suspect:

[Northern Monkey]

I don't understand it though..why can't these kids get child benefit in the country they live in? Does this mean that technically we could be made to pay CB for every kid in europe simply because our benefits are higher than theirs? :suspect:

Because their parents work here while their families live at home,Mainly Poland.The parents work here and claim CB for each of their kids back in Europe and usually send it abroad.Scandalous.
So our government(us) are giving money to kids abroad in Europe.

[empire]

the only thing thatcher ever got right, was about the eu, every thing she said about it was true,the single currency could not accommodate both industrial houses, like greece and italy to spain and the eastern countries in europe, none of these states would cope with high inflation, on their small economies, and with greece heading out of the euro, it looks set for others to do the same.

[Donovan.]

Really, most of the complaints are based around the idea that Britain is a rich, prosperous powerful country in Europe, but you don't want to subsidize or pay for the weaker countries in the EU.

Well the same could be said about the richest states in the US having to subsidize the poorest states, especially the south, especially because we disagree with them politically and see them as backwards and not in line with our morals.

But i don't think the US should reject our Union just because we have some very poor backwards states. Do i get annoyed and dismayed by having Alabama and Lousianna and Mississippi in the union sometimes? yes. but it's still better that we keep our union together.

The EU has similar backwards, poor states. but you have to take the good with the bad.

The UK should be proud it is one of the most prosperous states in the EU, just like California should be proud of being a prosperous state of the US, but i would never vote for my state, California, to leave the USA. I value the diversity of the USA, even though sometimes it confuses me, or even disgusts me, i know that California is still part of the USA, and this much larger land, and it benefits everyone to try to be connected with the other states on my continent.

I see countries like UK, France, Germany, as successful states, like California, New York, Florida. Yes the strongest states have to pay a little bit more than their fair share. But it's worth it in the end.

But I don't really think it's that simple. The US started as a union, before that it was 13 colonies of ONE other country. Because of that the US has always had unifying qualities and an underlying culture. Add to that the fact that the US has expanded so much from what it once was, taking over land from the native culture who didn't have the infrastructure that Europe has. The US got a chance to grow into its borders.

Because of that developmental difference, people in the US have the advantage of being able to move around more easily. I don't mean it's easier to actually get to a different part of the country in the US than it is to get to another member state in the EU, but it's easier to settle in once you're there. No matter how different California and Louisiana are, Americans can leave one state to find a job in another.

Realistically, that isn't as easy in EU. Cultural differences, language barriers, and other factors make it hard to pick up and find a job. And that really has put a chokehold on some of the smaller nation's economies.

[Denver]

Out without a doubt

[smudgie]

This lady is for turning.
I am leaning towards coming out of late.:shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

out please

[reece(:]

IN

No way is this country in a state of self sustainability.

[kirklancaster]

Oh I can see it now, stuff the EU ..stuff Scotland and wherever else that want to remain in. Little Britain rules OK?
We will have to join some trade organisation... take a seat in the WTO maybe, and what will that entail? Will that mean agreements regarding freedom of movement..freedom for people worldwide to access our services and welfare system?
I don't think that anyone who wants out of the EU fully understands what the alternatives will be, I have heard not one scenario that would be of any benefit, or satisfy the concerns that are currently held regarding our place in Europe.
It will only serve to alienate us from our closest neighbours and allies, those with whom we have the closest geographical,cultural and dare I say it religious ties.

No - quite simply put, it is YOU who does not have a clue what you are talking about.

[DemolitionRed]

Because I don't trust our government I'm afraid I'd have to vote to stay in. We have a government who'd love to take away more of our civil liberties but with the EU anchor around their necks, they can't.

We are also not an empire any more and if Scotland pulls away from us then we are merely a spit of land all on its own, with little to export and very dependant on import.

Yes the Europeans can't all pitch up here HOORAY you shout but guess what, we can't pitch up wherever we want in Europe now either.

[Kizzy]

[/B]

No - quite simply put, it is YOU who does not have a clue what you are talking about.

Well, I waited almost a year for a response and quite frankly, I'm disappointed.

[joeysteele]

I am still solidly for 'in'.
Although I do think this PM asked for very little in reality,I am really pleased to see more passion and a will from him to be able to recommend staying in.

I do fear he will not have the clout to influence a lot of voters to vote in, unlike Harold Wilson in 1975 but I really hope he makes a good case from all his talks and negotiations with the EU.

I still can see a tight finish possibly and the worst scenario too,that N Ireland, Wales and Scotland all vote to remain in,from the North to the Midlands of England voting to stay in, all the major cities alongside London also doing so.
Then the far South from the East to the West of the far South, possibly carrying a narrow out result.
Something that would not only create havoc with us leaving the EU but totally damage the structure of the United Kingdom too.

So this s a massive personal test now for David Cameron,if he fails to persuade the UK to remain in, it could be curtains for him a lot sooner than just before the next general election.
So good luck to him,on this if he recommends remaining in, he has my full support for sure.

[DemolitionRed]

He has made it clear he hasn't got a contingency plan Joey so if we leave I should think he will too, regardless of what he says now.

[the truth]

this is the last chance we will ever have of actually saving great Britain.
beyond this we will simply lose all sovereignty left and all important laws dictated to us by angela merkel and her successors. the fact one country basically runs the eu for its own ends, is in itself an absolute disgrace. THE EU CONSTITUTION WAS 70000 WORDS IN 204 NOW ITS WAY MORE....the US constitution is 7500 and its 250 years old ffs

I would literally pay £100,000 if I could afford it to get out...that's how much I utterly detest and hate the EU ....

OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT OUT

[waterhog]

Do you believe that we should come out of the EU or do you believe that we should stay in?

Please answer and give your reasons.


I want to stay as we are - keep our currency as it is and no more changes.

every time I have a note I sing GOD save the queen.:dance:

[Kazanne]

I'm leaning on the side of coming out, I dont want another country overriding our laws in particular.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

I'd vote to stay in in a referendum. The positives far outweigh any negatives, in my opinion.

[DemolitionRed]

I want to stay as we are - keep our currency as it is and no more changes.

every time I have a note I sing GOD save the queen.:dance:

Yes thank God we kept our sovereign currency.

[JoshBB]

Honestly, I'd be extremely pissed off if I were pulled out of the EU by a bunch of anti-immigration ignorants who know nothing more than the few phrases Farage spouts. When I am older, I am hoping that I am able to study abroad (in an EU country) and possibly even consider migrating for the life experience. If my freedom to move is forcibly taken from me, that will piss me off to no end.

There are elements of the EU which I don't like - a non-directly elected president , and TTIP, just to name two of them. But that doesn't mean you have to cut off your nose to spite your face, within any governmental organisation you have to be mature and work to find agreements and fight for what you truly believe in. A lot of people dislike the way our House of Commons is run, shall we just walk away from that also? Of course you don't, that wouldn't benefit anyone. And it's the same for the EU. Seems to me that Euroscepticism is just a way to euphemism the fact that people are too lazy to look towards sensible reform an would rather just look at the issue in a very black-or-white way.

[joeysteele]

I'm leaning on the side of coming out, I dont want another country overriding our laws in particular.

I understand that but sometimes the overruling can also be of benefit too.

That however is something that should be changed and one day some govt may get round to doing so.
We now have in place thanks to the Coalition govt,a policy firmly in place that now means any more treaties the EU wish to bring in, the UK must be asked if they want it signed.
It cannot be automatically signed now by any PM,it has to go to a UK referendum.

So while I get where you are coming from and the ruling that aided those things get out sooner than they may have as to the case that is so close to your heart and its still one that fills me with horror and fury too.
I fear possibly worse laws from unchecked govts, and so for me despite my reservations to your issue on the EU overruling us at times,the economics and all that comes from being a full partner in Europe,leans me to stay in.

Nothing is ever perfect but I have not a single thing that fills me with confidence as to where we would go if out the EU, all the new negotiations with the EU we would 'have' to do for a trade deal and then even still having to accept their rulings in some things despite not being a member anymore.

I really do believe as even Cameron has looked closely at the picture beyond leaving, he has now come to realise the chaos that may ensue from an exit.
Which is why he is now fighting hard to get something to offer the UK and hope he gets enough myself.

However, this needs to be something fought over long after the referendum too, for too long PMs of the UK have just accepted what the EU threw at us rather than challenge as Margaret Thatcher did so often to her credit.
So if the vote is to remain in the EU, then really what this PM has started in the EU as to hopefully more continual ongoing reform, that needs to be something any UK PM elected in the future continues to do too.
Making sure we 'make' our voice heard in the EU rather than just hoping it will be.

Unity is strength as the saying goes, and I will be voting to stay in for many reasons, despite the negatives there are too,I still believe the positives are in the majority overall for remaining in.

[kirklancaster]

Undecided

My problem with staying in is, why are the establishment so adamant to keep us in? History tells us how massively corrupt the establishment is, but we keep putting our trust in them, because they tell us too.

Why are the money making machine of America so determined and in a panic for us to stay in? is it for the good of the people or the good of the elite?


If we don't want to govern ourselves, then why do we want to be governed by the EU?
Why do we want to be governed by anyone?

The out vote stands no chance.

We will be voting to stay in, because as a whole we obey what we're lead to believe is good and true.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: I have no time now because I have to go to work, but you have got closer to the truth of this sordid mess than anyone else on here.

[kirklancaster]

Well, I waited almost a year for a response and quite frankly, I'm disappointed.

Tempus Fugit but I will respond when I return from work.

[bots]

I think it boils down to some very simple principles, all other issues are just noise that cause upset as we as a country face challenges as we react to the world around us.

Some common misunderstandings. The EU can't impose anything on the UK if we don't want to comply. Plenty other countries in Europe have ignored EU edicts as and when it suits them, with no penalty.

Immigration is an issue for us at this point in our history, at other times, we will stand with open arms welcoming people depending on our circumstances. This is a proven fact in our relatively recent history.

We can either be insular and tell everyone else to f off or we can embrace others cultures and grow and enrich ourselves in the process.

The European Union is a principle, things can always adapt as we go, we shouldn't base decisions around short term issues in our country's history.

[Livia]

Honestly, I'd be extremely pissed off if I were pulled out of the EU by a bunch of anti-immigration ignorants who know nothing more than the few phrases Farage spouts. When I am older, I am hoping that I am able to study abroad (in an EU country) and possibly even consider migrating for the life experience. If my freedom to move is forcibly taken from me, that will piss me off to no end.

There are elements of the EU which I don't like - a non-directly elected president , and TTIP, just to name two of them. But that doesn't mean you have to cut off your nose to spite your face, within any governmental organisation you have to be mature and work to find agreements and fight for what you truly believe in. A lot of people dislike the way our House of Commons is run, shall we just walk away from that also? Of course you don't, that wouldn't benefit anyone. And it's the same for the EU. Seems to me that Euroscepticism is just a way to euphemism the fact that people are too lazy to look towards sensible reform an would rather just look at the issue in a very black-or-white way.

So in other words, if people disagree with you, they're ignorant Farage-supporters? Josh, get your head out of your arse and credit people with a little more intelligence, at LEAST as much as you think you have.

The bottom line is this: We get back only about half what we put in. We trade more with the USA than we do with the EU, and we'd still trade with the EU regardless of whether we were a member... other countries do.

I can't see any benefit for Brits apart from the free movement through borders, and that's a double-edged sword if ever there was one.

I was on the fence for a long time, but after considerable thought I came to my conclusion.

Out.

[DemolitionRed]

Honestly, I'd be extremely pissed off if I were pulled out of the EU by a bunch of anti-immigration ignorants who know nothing more than the few phrases Farage spouts.

Farage made a lot of noise about that but he forgot to mention this http://odihpn.org/magazine/the-human-rights-act-and-refugees-in-the-uk/

Refugees already have the benefit of another international convention, the 1951 Refugee Convention, which is already effectively part of UK law.

Regardless of Farage pulling us out of the EU, what he can't do is sit down with his cabinet and take apart and re-write The Human Rights Act. Can you imagine the rest of parliament sitting back and allowing that :hehe:

I'm always a little amused when people tell me they want Farage because he will sort out the immigrants, because he simply doesn't have that choice.

[Livia]

Who are these anti-immigration Farage-ites? It was the Conservatives who offered the In/Out referendum, not UKIP and definitely not Labour. The only party of offer a proper referendum was the Tories. Most of the people I've spoken to about this have really given it some thought, whether they're ins or outs. No one's taking this opportunity lightly and if anyone thinks that if we do exit Europe, it'll be because of some Farage followers they'd be seriously mistaken. If we do come out of Europe it'll be because thinking people have made a decision they think right for this country... whether that sits well with some or not.

[DemolitionRed]

this is the last chance we will ever have of actually saving great Britain.
beyond this we will simply lose all sovereignty left and all important laws dictated to us by angela merkel and her successors. the fact one country basically runs the eu for its own ends, is in itself an absolute disgrace. THE EU CONSTITUTION WAS 70000 WORDS IN 204 NOW ITS WAY MORE....the US constitution is 7500 and its 250 years old ffs

I would literally pay £100,000 if I could afford it to get out...that's how much I utterly detest and hate the EU ....



I think you will find that 'The European Court of Human Rights' was written off the back of the 'British Court of Human Rights' and the BCHR was the successor of the Magna Carta. To put that another way, every time we try to change the rules on human rights, we are changing the rules of the original format we wrote and accepted and what other European countries adopted from us.

[lostalex]

Europe is always going to be a mishmash of stupid undemocratic bureaucrats. There is really nothing redeeming about it, it doesn't provide equal protection to all citizens, and the continent is just as un stable;e as it's ever been.

Until the EU is truly democratic it will be worthless.

[Livia]

Europe is always going to be a mishmash of stupid undemocratic bureaucrats. There is really nothing redeeming about it, it doesn't provide equal protection to all citizens, and the continent is just as un stable;e as it's ever been.

Until the EU is truly democratic it will be worthless.

We agree again,Alex. Some people have the idea, I think, that one day we'll morph into the United States of Europe but it's never going to happen. Never ever...

[arista]

If The PM
gets his Euro Answers by Friday
its Expected to by the UK Vote on 23rd of June, Thurs.
In or Out - Shake it All About, Hog.

Once he fires the starting pistol
the Conservative MP's that want
to leave the E U
can start going on the press
in Full strength.


Ref: SkyNewsHD, Ch4HD News , BBC NewsHD, GMBHD,
LBC and Radio 5.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Emma Thompson has intervened on Britain's future in Europe by urging the UK not to fall back to its 'cake-filled misery-laden grey old island'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3449390/Emma-Thompson-leads-luvvies-telling-Britain-stay-Europe-not-retreat-cake-filled-misery-laden-grey-old-island.html#ixzz40LUibHAu


I swear people think this is a vote to leave Europe geographically and not just leave the EU

:facepalm:

[DemolitionRed]

Who are these anti-immigration Farage-ites? It was the Conservatives who offered the In/Out referendum, not UKIP and definitely not Labour. The only party of offer a proper referendum was the Tories. Most of the people I've spoken to about this have really given it some thought, whether they're ins or outs. No one's taking this opportunity lightly and if anyone thinks that if we do exit Europe, it'll be because of some Farage followers they'd be seriously mistaken. If we do come out of Europe it'll be because thinking people have made a decision they think right for this country... whether that sits well with some or not.

The only reason we are having a referendum on Europe now is because of the rise of UKIP support before he was re-elected. It was merely Camerons sales pitch to ensure he got back in. Are you suggesting UKIP weren't using the out vote ? and he didn't suggest that the only way to clean up the UK's immigration problem was to leave the EU?

Whilst I believe a lot of people will put a lot of thought into this, I also think a lot of people will be influenced by single issues and not look at the broader picture and single issue voters are not representative of the general population.

[DemolitionRed]

Emma Thompson has intervened on Britain's future in Europe by urging the UK not to fall back to its 'cake-filled misery-laden grey old island'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3449390/Emma-Thompson-leads-luvvies-telling-Britain-stay-Europe-not-retreat-cake-filled-misery-laden-grey-old-island.html#ixzz40LUibHAu


I swear people think this is a vote to leave Europe geographically and not just leave the EU

:facepalm:

From the article:

Stuart Jackson, the Tory MP for Peterborough, immediately hit out at the claims.

He said: 'I really couldn't give a monkeys what overpaid Leftie luvvie Emma Thompson thinks about Brexit.'

I'm trying to work out the rationale. That surely means that if Cameron wants to stay in Europe (which he does) he must be a leftie too?

[MTVN]

From the article:

Stuart Jackson, the Tory MP for Peterborough, immediately hit out at the claims.

He said: 'I really couldn't give a monkeys what overpaid Leftie luvvie Emma Thompson thinks about Brexit.'

I'm trying to work out the rationale. That surely means that if Cameron wants to stay in Europe (which he does) he must be a leftie too?

Thompson is a well known as a leftie in general though, and a particularly annoying one

[Crimson Dynamo]

From the article:

Stuart Jackson, the Tory MP for Peterborough, immediately hit out at the claims.

He said: 'I really couldn't give a monkeys what overpaid Leftie luvvie Emma Thompson thinks about Brexit.'

I'm trying to work out the rationale. That surely means that if Cameron wants to stay in Europe (which he does) he must be a leftie too?

there are plenty of tories that want out of the EU

[arista]

The PM
is Conservative-Liberal
thats why he got in Power in 2010.

I was telling the Late & Great Andyman
poster back in 2008 - 2009
about Why His Labour
under Scottish Brown
would lose.

[DemolitionRed]

there are plenty of tories that want out of the EU

Perhaps so but its the Tory purse that will pay for the up and coming fear campaigns re-leaving.

[DemolitionRed]

The PM
is Conservative-Liberal
thats why he got in Power in 2010.

I was telling the Late & Great Andyman
poster back in 2008 - 2009
about Why His Labour
under Scottish Brown
would lose.

In name only. Cameron is certainly not a supporter of civil liberties.

[Livia]

The only reason we are having a referendum on Europe now is because of the rise of UKIP support before he was re-elected. It was merely Camerons sales pitch to ensure he got back in. Are you suggesting UKIP weren't using the out vote ? and he didn't suggest that the only way to clean up the UK's immigration problem was to leave the EU?

Whilst I believe a lot of people will put a lot of thought into this, I also think a lot of people will be influenced by single issues and not look at the broader picture and single issue voters are not representative of the general population.

Only one party promised an in/out referendum on Europe during the election and that party was not UKIP. As far as I can see the Tories reacted to the public feeling... which is increasingly anti-Europe. And I understand why. It's a big, costly, toothless, white elephant and we would be better without it.

[Livia]

Perhaps so but its the Tory purse that will pay for the up and coming fear campaigns re-leaving.

Actually I know a few MPs who intend to push the 'out' vote. And that Tory purse to which you refer is full of money donated by supporters... they get no funding from the Unions. The positive side of that is that they don't have to dance to the tune of the Unions.

[DemolitionRed]

Actually I know a few MPs who intend to push the 'out' vote. And that Tory purse to which you refer is full of money donated by supporters... they get no funding from the Unions. The positive side of that is that they don't have to dance to the tune of the Unions.

That wasn't my point. What was your point? Oh silly me, it was it to impress me wasn't it?

[Livia]

That wasn't my point. What was your point? Oh silly me, it was it to impress me wasn't it?

You overestimate your impact, I'm afraid.

[Firewire]

in

[Cherie]

Not heard enough to convince me either way at the moment.


Question to the people who are already confirmed OUT voters, what happens to Europeans currently living in the UK and UK nationals living in Europe if we were to exit

[DemolitionRed]

Not heard enough to convince me either way at the moment.

Question to the people who are already confirmed OUT voters, what happens to Europeans currently living in the UK and UK nationals living in Europe if we were to exit

That's a really important question that no one will attempt to answer because its too hard. Removing them (aside from being rather unfortunate for them) will leave businesses up **** creek and collapse the housing market to the point that 2009 would look like a boom year.

My guess is that existing employed residents would have the right to remain, because its the only sane option.

What would happen to ex-pats living and working in Europe is another issue that would have to be resolved. Selling up and moving back to an unaffordable (housing market) UK would be a nightmare that I'm sure none of them want to face.

[the truth]

I'd vote to stay in in a referendum. The positives far outweigh any negatives, in my opinion.

Tell that to Greece, Portugal, Iceland, spain , Italy.....all bankrupted and controlled by the germans totally ....the greeks were even pressurised to buy billions more german tanks and weapons on credit as they were going bankrupt....the money they defaulted , bang overnight goes the biggest shipping industry in Europe....the entire thing is sick and totally anti economic and enslaves us for eternity to massive European government and massive corporate takeovers

[DemolitionRed]

Tell that to Greece, Portugal, Iceland, spain , Italy.....all bankrupted and controlled by the germans totally ....the greeks were even pressurised to buy billions more german tanks and weapons on credit as they were going bankrupt....the money they defaulted , bang overnight goes the biggest shipping industry in Europe....the entire thing is sick and totally anti economic and enslaves us for eternity to massive European government and massive corporate takeovers

But what do all those countries have in common? the euro. We kept hold of our sovereign currency which gives us a lot more leverage.

[the truth]

Honestly, I'd be extremely pissed off if I were pulled out of the EU by a bunch of anti-immigration ignorants who know nothing more than the few phrases Farage spouts. When I am older, I am hoping that I am able to study abroad (in an EU country) and possibly even consider migrating for the life experience. If my freedom to move is forcibly taken from me, that will piss me off to no end.

There are elements of the EU which I don't like - a non-directly elected president , and TTIP, just to name two of them. But that doesn't mean you have to cut off your nose to spite your face, within any governmental organisation you have to be mature and work to find agreements and fight for what you truly believe in. A lot of people dislike the way our House of Commons is run, shall we just walk away from that also? Of course you don't, that wouldn't benefit anyone. And it's the same for the EU. Seems to me that Euroscepticism is just a way to euphemism the fact that people are too lazy to look towards sensible reform an would rather just look at the issue in a very black-or-white way.

immigration is a minor problem , its low on the list of an infinite list of disasters at the EU

80,000 word of laws and rules and regulations that no one has even read
over 400 pages
strangling small businesses and strengthening massive corporate monopoly takeovers. ....
it favours the 1 controlling nation Germany (and Austria and france)
it enslaves us to corporations even more, it has widened the wealth gap even more, it has created endless tax loop holes for corporations and billionaires even more, it has wiped out entire industries in many nations including ours....it has a totally biased unlevel playing field, as we see with german energy prices 50% lower than ours,....even the rules are applied differently. how is german coal and steel booking? are they meeting the same costs and pollution limits? nope. they haven't even audited their accounts for 20 years....the waste, the debts, the corruption is staggering....why are America demanding we stay? because it suits their corporate interests. simple. where has our ship building, agriculture, fishing, manufacturing, car industry, steel, coal, copper, tin industries gone? we cant even dredge our own beaches anymore?

the wealth gap has grown enormously too and for those who preach about treating immigrants well, are you even aware how the eu is raping the coastlines of Africa for riches whilst at the same time creating a cartel so that the Africans cant even trade over here.

everytime one wants to do anything we have to run it by 30 countries and 500 million people first? its insane, whether we stay or go it will collapse and sink like the titanic anyway.

OUT

trading partners yes, but we will make our own laws thanks

[Cherie]

That's a really important question that no one will attempt to answer because its too hard. Removing them (aside from being rather unfortunate for them) will leave businesses up **** creek and collapse the housing market to the point that 2009 would look like a boom year.

My guess is that existing employed residents would have the right to remain, because its the only sane option.

What would happen to ex-pats living and working in Europe is another issue that would have to be resolved. Selling up and moving back to an unaffordable (housing market) UK would be a nightmare that I'm sure none of them want to face.


That's it in a nutshell, as the referendum was initiated by the UK I doubt they would have any choice but to give anyone resident at the time of the election the right to remain in Britain, other countries won't have to bother. This is a question I asked when Scotland were voting to stay or go, no one voting to go could answer what would have happened to Scottish nationals living in England, Wale or NI in the event that the result was to leave the UK

[the truth]

That's it in a nutshell, as the referendum was initiated by the UK I doubt they would have any choice but to give anyone resident at the time of the election the right to remain in Britain, other countries won't have to bother. This is a question I asked when Scotland were voting to stay or go, no one voting to go could answer what would have happened to Scottish nationals living in England, Wale or NI in the event that the result was to leave the UK

people with the right visa and passports will stay. in the longer term, we will see controlled immigration to a degree. though tbh that's the least of my issues with the disastrous EU. In fact outside of hunting down terrorists immigration doesn't bother me at all.

[the truth]

But what do all those countries have in common? the euro. We kept hold of our sovereign currency which gives us a lot more leverage.

Thank God we did and we didn't listen to the mass of pro EU fans from liberals and many from labour and plaed cymru and snp who were demanding we ditched the pound for the euro. the FACT the UK has created MORE JOBS THAN THE REST OF THE ENTIRE EUROPEAN UNION PUT TOGETHER IN THE PAST 5 YEARS REALLY TELLS YOU EVERYTHING.

[Cherie]

people with the right visa and passports will stay. in the longer term, we will see controlled immigration to a degree. though tbh that's the least of my issues with the disastrous EU. In fact outside of hunting down terrorists immigration doesn't bother me at all.

My point isn't really about immigration in, rather emigration out/ expats and what will happen to them?

[the truth]

The only reason we are having a referendum on Europe now is because of the rise of UKIP support before he was re-elected. It was merely Camerons sales pitch to ensure he got back in. Are you suggesting UKIP weren't using the out vote ? and he didn't suggest that the only way to clean up the UK's immigration problem was to leave the EU?

Whilst I believe a lot of people will put a lot of thought into this, I also think a lot of people will be influenced by single issues and not look at the broader picture and single issue voters are not representative of the general population.


what are you on about? people have been euro sceptical for 40 years? the entire thing is a mess...have you run businesses? have you spoken to truckers? fishermen and women? steelworkers? coal workers? factory workers? farmers and agricultural workers? shop keepers? the list is endless? they've absolutely crucified us and every other business person and industry outside of Germany and Austria and france

[the truth]

My point isn't really about immigration in, rather emigration out/ expats and what will happen to them?
nothing much will happen. there may be some tinkering with the benefits...when uk leaves we will still be trading partners and may still sign up to some treaties....but we wont be tied up by their laws anymore

[joeysteele]

David Cameron proposed to hold a referendum on the EU when it appeared the Conservatives were almost sure to be out in 2015.
It was more likely promised to hold off anger from the Euro sceptics in his own party after the rise in support for UKIP.

Now he has to hold it and he will now go down as the PM who delivered a referendum just as Labour's Harold Wilson did in 1975,putting to rights the wrong of Heath taking the UK into Europe without a referendum or election on the issue.

However,I applaud his new enthusiasm for the UKs membership of the EU now and for me it is simply ridiculous after all this time to have the UK walk away from it and bring disunity into play.
Nations should be coming together not moving further apart.
One of the many reasons I will always support staying in and do all I can to help persuade others to vote to stay in too.

This is not the 70s or 80s,it is not a time for the UK to be backward looking and I have yet to see a convincing Plan at all from anyone as to the UK's secured successful future after an exit.
Nothing at all of note or even fact as we have little idea even of what conditions and terms the EU would place on an exited UK too.
The only thing we do now is we would have to ask for one for sure.

[DemolitionRed]

immigration is a minor problem , its low on the list of an infinite list of disasters at the EU

80,000 word of laws and rules and regulations that no one has even read
over 400 pages
strangling small businesses and strengthening massive corporate monopoly takeovers. ....
it favours the 1 controlling nation Germany (and Austria and france)
it enslaves us to corporations even more, it has widened the wealth gap even more, it has created endless tax loop holes for corporations and billionaires even more, it has wiped out entire industries in many nations including ours....it has a totally biased unlevel playing field, as we see with german energy prices 50% lower than ours,....even the rules are applied differently. how is german coal and steel booking? are they meeting the same costs and pollution limits? nope. they haven't even audited their accounts for 20 years....the waste, the debts, the corruption is staggering....why are America demanding we stay? because it suits their corporate interests. simple. where has our ship building, agriculture, fishing, manufacturing, car industry, steel, coal, copper, tin industries gone? we cant even dredge our own beaches anymore?

the wealth gap has grown enormously too and for those who preach about treating immigrants well, are you even aware how the eu is raping the coastlines of Africa for riches whilst at the same time creating a cartel so that the Africans cant even trade over here.

everytime one wants to do anything we have to run it by 30 countries and 500 million people first? its insane, whether we stay or go it will collapse and sink like the titanic anyway.

OUT

trading partners yes, but we will make our own laws thanks

I agree with a lot of that and that's why I'm presently stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts regarding human rights and the rule of law if we come out of the EU ? Would you etrust our present government and our future governments (whoever they may be) to be the guardians of our human rights?

[Cherie]

nothing much will happen. there may be some tinkering with the benefits...when uk leaves we will still be trading partners and may still sign up to some treaties....but we wont be tied up by their laws anymore

What do you mean not a lot would happen UK nationals would need visas or citizenship to live in European Union countries would they not :think:

[DemolitionRed]

what are you on about? people have been euro sceptical for 40 years? the entire thing is a mess...have you run businesses? have you spoken to truckers? fishermen and women? steelworkers? coal workers? factory workers? farmers and agricultural workers? shop keepers? the list is endless? they've absolutely crucified us and every other business person and industry outside of Germany and Austria and france

So why will some vote to stay in and others not vote at all?

[DemolitionRed]

What do you mean not a lot would happen UK nationals would need visas or citizenship to live in European Union countries would they not :think:

Its likely they would be treated like any other foreigner who has no rights to live in a country.

Almost certainly their government would set an amnesty period (possibly a year) to give the Brits time to sort out the relevant paperwork.

Unless these European countries allow grandfather rights, all those retired folk who still collect British pensions may find themselves on route back to the UK and there's over a million of them.

[MTVN]

I'm still In and I think people underestimate the importance of what Cameron has done. It's funny how in this country he has been made out to fudge it and secure a deal in name only which achieves nothing when the reality is that he and dozens of advisers have spent months and even years slogging this out and its still incredibly difficult to lock down an agreement. What has been portrayed in this country as a nothing deal is seen as an outrage amongst many in Poland, Hungary and the like. The PM deserves a lot of credit IMO and its a shame that Corbyn and the SNP are more interested in attacking his negotiation attempts rather than focusing on the Remain campaign.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm still In and I think people underestimate the importance of what Cameron has done. It's funny how in this country he has been made out to fudge it and secure a deal in name only which achieves nothing when the reality is that he and dozens of advisers have spent months and even years slogging this out and its still incredibly difficult to lock down an agreement. What has been portrayed in this country as a nothing deal is seen as an outrage amongst many in Poland, Hungary and the like. The PM deserves a lot of credit IMO and its a shame that Corbyn and the SNP are more interested in attacking his negotiation attempts rather than focusing on the Remain campaign.

I'm leaning much further in than out but I can't and won't praise Cameron because I think he's a very weak cloaked neo-liberalist who's fixated on 'austerity' at the expense of the British poor. He's the PM who will be remembered for manipulating the rule of law and turning our trusted 'Human Rights Act' into what's now called a 'Villains Charter'.

[joeysteele]

I'm still In and I think people underestimate the importance of what Cameron has done. It's funny how in this country he has been made out to fudge it and secure a deal in name only which achieves nothing when the reality is that he and dozens of advisers have spent months and even years slogging this out and its still incredibly difficult to lock down an agreement. What has been portrayed in this country as a nothing deal is seen as an outrage amongst many in Poland, Hungary and the like. The PM deserves a lot of credit IMO and its a shame that Corbyn and the SNP are more interested in attacking his negotiation attempts rather than focusing on the Remain campaign.

I don't think he set enough targets and also think he procrastinated on this issue for too long.
However maybe he has just asked for and can get enough to make a convincing argument to stay in.

Surprisingly I have to agree, he does command credit for this and his efforts once pushed into having to do it.
On this issue he has my full support if in the end he comes out with a recommendation to stay in.

I think he has looked at possible life outside the EU and being in the better place to do so, he doesn't like the idea of what he has seen as to being out of it really either.

[Ammi]

..I don't know if you feel it would be good to have a poll added to this, Kirk..?..a blend of younger and older votes atm...

[Ammi]

Not heard enough to convince me either way at the moment.


Question to the people who are already confirmed OUT voters, what happens to Europeans currently living in the UK and UK nationals living in Europe if we were to exit

..I don't know if this is helpful at all, Cherie and it's a few year old..but I've just found this...


http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/what-happens-to-british-expatriates-if.html

[kirklancaster]

..I don't know if you feel it would be good to have a poll added to this, Kirk..?..a blend of younger and older votes atm...

A great idea Ammi - I'll ask Niamh to fix it for me :laugh: She always does bless her. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

If we were out of the EU more regressive laws will be passed. I say stay in.

[user104658]

..I don't know if you feel it would be good to have a poll added to this, Kirk..?..a blend of younger and older votes atm...
I think if there is a poll, it would be interesting to have 5 options at least.

In - Age over 40
In - Age under 40
Out - over 40
Out - under 40
Undecided (any age)

I personally think this is very relevant. Leaving the EU has permanent consequences reaching far into the future. The people it will most impact are younger... And, perhaps controversially, I'm not sure how "right" it is for Boomers and early-GenXers to have such huge sway in that...

[Cherie]

..I don't know if this is helpful at all, Cherie and it's a few year old..but I've just found this...


http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/what-happens-to-british-expatriates-if.html

Thanks Ammi that was an interesting read, I think ex pats will be largely forgotten in the debate sadly

[Ammi]

Thanks Ammi that was an interesting read, I think ex pats will be largely forgotten in the debate sadly

..(well they're a huge part of it, I think..)...I've also got family living and working overseas/in Europe atm...

[Cherie]

..(well they're a huge part of it, I think..)...I've also got family living and working overseas/in Europe atm...

I don't know how people can have firmly made up their minds that out is best when no provision for ex pats has yet been made :sad:

[Ammi]

I don't know how people can have firmly made up their minds that out is best when no provision for ex pats has yet been made :sad:

...yeah, so much to consider now that there is going to be a referendum, Cherie...that site/link sounded quite positive though, that the existing ones may not be effected at all, it'll more be anyone for the future..?../that's kind of how I read it but it still wouldn't mean that, that would be how it would be..and for instance, the flood of young/working age expats back to the UK, how would employment sustain that when it's not sustaining atm...

[Cherie]

...yeah, so much to consider now that there is going to be a referendum, Cherie...that site/link sounded quite positive though, that the existing ones may not be effected at all, it'll more be anyone for the future..?../that's kind of how I read it but it still wouldn't mean that, that would be how it would be..and for instance, the flood of young/working age expats back to the UK, how would employment sustain that when it's not sustaining atm...

Exactly, but it's all speculation, it's something I want to hear a firm commitment on from the politicians during the debate, I don't feel I know enough about the pros and coins to make a decision either way at the moment

[Ammi]

Exactly, but it's all speculation, it's something I want to hear a firm commitment on from the politicians during the debate, I don't feel I know enough about the pros and coins to make a decision either way at the moment

..and such an extremely important decision/vote as well...we'll get you on Question Time though Cherie to get those answers..(and we know you're the person to get them...)...

[user104658]

Thanks Ammi that was an interesting read, I think ex pats will be largely forgotten in the debate sadly

I'm sure they will - a lot of British people seem to have a bizarre notion that being in Britain is somehow superior and that everyone else is hammering at the doors to get it. It's probably inconceivable to them that there are actually native Brits living and working abroad in Europe who really don't want to come back.

[DemolitionRed]

I firmly believe Strasbourg will make an example of us. Even if we do allow EU nationals to remain in the UK, I think its highly unlikely Brits will have the same privileges. Nobody really knows what's going to happen but whatever happens, its going to be the British ex pats living in other European countries that have the most to lose if we do come out of the EU.

Worse case scenario is, the Brits would have to return to the UK and re- apply, through the embassy, for citizenship or rights to migrate. They would probably have to apply for work permits and buy expensive medical insurance. Those applying to be nationals will probably have to take an exam and prove they can speak the language.

I'm dual national but my husband isn't and so that could create problems because we planned to live back in France in a few years time. We have been watching this closely but we are as much in the dark as everyone else.

One thing I would advise any British person who's thinking of moving to another EU country is to wait until after the vote. Personally I don't think we will leave but I've been wrong before.

[joeysteele]

My worries on this referendum are now we are not going to get that much time to digest what the PM does get and then really go into the massive elements of the whole EU process.
We will not get a balanced and fair presentation from the media and for those who really are confused by it all,and that may be the majority even,how they will come to make a decision as to how to vote,or even if they will bother, I don't know.

Late last year,I and some friends found 100 people who would vote to leave and 100 people who would vote to stay in.
It's not scientific by any means but of the 100 who would vote to leave,90 would be sure to go and vote for same no matter when a referendum was held.
Whereas of the 100 who would vote to stay only 65 would be sure to vote for same no matter when the referendum was held.

I see a real risk of the UK sleepwalking out of the EU.
Which is why I think the referendum should have been held at least when council elections were being voted on but preferably at a general election to maximise the turnout as much as possible.

That is not going to be the case now obviously and so for me this is something as a result that is up in the air,which could even end up going against the majority wishes of the UK too as to who actually bothers to make the effort to vote at all.

[Livia]

I'm sure they will - a lot of British people seem to have a bizarre notion that being in Britain is somehow superior and that everyone else is hammering at the doors to get it. It's probably inconceivable to them that there are actually native Brits living and working abroad in Europe who really don't want to come back.

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

There will be some kind of reciprocal arrangement I'm sure. It's hardly likely that no provision will be made for ex-pats... but they'll undoubtedly miss having a British passport and automatically being able to cross borders... although there's nothing decided as far as I know.

And anyway, is everyone assuming that no one lived or worked abroad before the borders were opened?

There will undoubtedly be a period of adjustment so people can make up their minds where they want to remain. I think this is just something that "In" voters are clinging on to as an argument when they have no more idea than anyone else right now what the answer is, but have decided to look on the bleak side as usual.

[user104658]

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

Don't be childish, Livia :nono:

[joeysteele]

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

There will be some kind of reciprocal arrangement I'm sure. It's hardly likely that no provision will be made for ex-pats... but they'll undoubtedly miss having a British passport and automatically being able to cross borders... although there's nothing decided as far as I know.

And anyway, is everyone assuming that no one lived or worked abroad before the borders were opened?

There will undoubtedly be a period of adjustment so people can make up their minds where they want to remain. I think this is just something that "In" voters are clinging on to as an argument when they have no more idea than anyone else right now what the answer is, but have decided to look on the bleak side as usual.

Hello Livia.
I am an in person and I know now what the situation is for the UK because we have been there for 40 years.
What I haven't a clue on, is exactly what the plans are for after we leave if we do.
I hear bits of this and that, with the additional point of it will need to be also negotiated and trade deals set in place,I do not hear what conditions, what costs what other things we will have to do in order to address the big change that will inevitably come from leaving what we already have.
Even with the bad elements of the EU, we at least know the situation more clearly.

All I hear from UKIP is we will get controls of our borders back, be able to control immigration,( which I still doubt myself),and we will save a fortune out of the EU,which I actually again doubt.
I am a member of the Labour party and they have no picture really of life now outside the EU.
The Conservatives cannot give any guarantees,and they are the govt,as to what we will negotiate on and what trade deals and conditions will apply, still, to us.

So you are an out person.
Can you enlighten those with doubts, worries and fears of actually voting to leave the EU,( quite a few on this thread too),as to the guarantees that all will be far better, will not get worse and what the things are that will make all better and not worse.
Because honestly, when we have a situation where we have been in the EU for over 40 years now and despite the annoyance and frustration at times with it,at least we know where we stand and what goes on mostly.
What we as voters then need to make the right decision, is to be shown and told and have explained, what the plans are for after an exit vote and we also need to know same plans will improve things for the UK and have the guarantees of same too.

Without such guarantees, voters are then taking a massive risk of jumping into the unknown as to the UKs strong future by voting to leave.

Just as the Scots would have done had they voted for independence,they were relying on oil as a strong source to see them thought any exit from just the UK,that plan would have fallen flat on its face now almost with the changes in oil pricing which could have been devastating for the Scottish economy.

So if you could have me sit down in front of you now,( that would be nice actually:wavey:), and try to persuade me to vote out, what real guarantees can you state and offer as to the UK being better now out of the EU after over 40 years.

[lostalex]

britain ain't leaving the EU. stop acting like it's a real decision. just like the sxcotland decision it's not a real decision. of course you will stay.

[joeysteele]

britain ain't leaving the EU. stop acting like it's a real decision. just like the sxcotland decision it's not a real decision. of course you will stay.

I wouldn't put a bet on that one Alex,I think the move is more negative than positive as to staying in now.
I still think the majority of the UK want to stay in but I am not convinced enough will bother to vote on the issue, especially outside a general election.

However, I really hope you are right.

[Livia]

Don't be childish, Livia :nono:

Extraordinarily rich coming from you, TS.

[user104658]

I wouldn't put a bet on that one Alex,I think the move is more negative than positive as to staying in now.
I still think the majority of the UK want to stay in but I am not convinced enough will better to vote on the issue, especially outside a general election.

However, I really hope you are right.

What Alex is saying, I think, is that as with the Scottish referendum, it simply won't be a loowed to happen. Such a major shift in global politics simply won't be left in the hands of the British public in any real or meaningful way.

I'm inclined to agree with him. It's a charade, its only purpose being to appease people who are (correctly) starting to feel powerless / controlled, and to take the question off the table for another 50 years.

[Niamh.]

I wonder how it would effect us if you lot left the Eu? :think: I'd imagine the vast majority of our trade is done with the UK

[user104658]

Extraordinarily rich coming from you, TS.

It suits me, I have that je ne sais quoi that makes it hopelessly endearing. The "cheeky chappy", if you will. It's not working for you at all, it just comes across as bratty :bawling:.

[Livia]

Hello Livia.
I am an in person and I know now what the situation is for the UK because we have been there for 40 years.
What I haven't a clue on, is exactly what the plans are for after we leave if we do.
I hear bits of this and that, with the additional point of it will need to be also negotiated and trade deals set in place,I do not hear what conditions, what costs what other things we will have to do in order to address the big change that will inevitably come from leaving what we already have.
Even with the bad elements of the EU, we at least know the situation more clearly.

All I hear from UKIP is we will get controls of our borders back, be able to control immigration,( which I still doubt myself),and we will save a fortune out of the EU,which I actually again doubt.
I am a member of the Labour party and they have no picture really of life now outside the EU.
The Conservatives cannot give any guarantees,and they are the govt,as to what we will negotiate on and what trade deals and conditions will apply, still, to us.

So you are an out person.
Can you enlighten those with doubts, worries and fears of actually voting to leave the EU,( quite a few on this thread too),as to the guarantees that all will be far better, will not get worse and what the things are that will make all better and not worse.
Because honestly, when we have a situation where we have been in the EU for over 40 years now and despite the annoyance and frustration at times with it,at least we know where we stand and what goes on mostly.
What we as voters then need to make the right decision, is to be shown and told and have explained, what the plans are for after an exit vote and we also need to know same plans will improve things for the UK and have the guarantees of same too.

Without such guarantees, voters are then taking a massive risk of jumping into the unknown as to the UKs strong future by voting to leave.

Just as the Scots would have done had they voted for independence,they were relying on oil as a strong source to see them thought any exit from just the UK,that plan would have fallen flat on its face now almost with the changes in oil pricing which could have been devastating for the Scottish economy.

So if you could have me sit down in front of you now,( that would be nice actually:wavey:), and try to persuade me to vote out, what real guarantees can you state and offer as to the UK being better now out of the EU after over 40 years.

Hey Joey.

You say we've been here for 40 years but that simply isn't true. The Common Market this country joined in the 1970s bears no resemblance to the monster it has become.

For a long time I was on the fence about Europe and said as much on this forum... that I didn't know enough about it to make an informed decision. I put myself out to research what it meant for me and what I thought it meant for the country. It could have gone either way. Having looked at all the evidence I could get my hands on I have decided that I am going to vote for us to leave.

However, I am not campaigning for the 'Out' campaign, I would encourage everyone to make up their own minds as I have done.

[user104658]

I wonder how it would effect us if you lot left the Eu? :think: I'd imagine the vast majority of our trade is done with the UK

I'd guess (hypothetically as I do agree that it won't be allowed to happen) that short term it would definitely have a negative effect on exports for Ireland, however, looking forward, I'd imagine some sort of separate trade deal specifically between Ireland and the UK would be possible or even probable. A "Special relationship" that may involve nudity and / or blood rituals.

[Niamh.]

I'd guess (hypothetically as I do agree that it won't be allowed to happen) that short term it would definitely have a negative effect on exports for Ireland, however, looking forward, I'd imagine some sort of separate trade deal specifically between Ireland and the UK would be possible or even probable. A "Special relationship" that may involve nudity and / or blood rituals.

I thought it already did :smug:

[user104658]

I thought it already did :smug:

What happens in Ireland stays in Ireland :umm2:

[Livia]

It suits me, I have that je ne sais quoi that makes it hopelessly endearing. The "cheeky chappy", if you will. It's not working for you at all, it just comes across as bratty :bawling:.

If you want to start a thread about how you think I come across, go ahead. It's just what we need, someone else giving us an analysis on what they think another forum member is like and what their faults are.

Other than that, shut your pie hole. x

[Niamh.]

What happens in Ireland stays in Ireland :umm2:

:laugh:

[user104658]

If you want to start a thread about how you think I come across, go ahead. It's just what we need, someone else giving us an analysis on what they think another forum member is like and what their faults are.

I would genuinely adore this thread (about all members, not just you of course) but I don't think the mods would like it. It has the potential to be the best thread since "Why Is Jesus Blinvisible", though. :worry:

[Livia]

I would genuinely adore this thread (about all members, not just you of course) but I don't think the mods would like it. It has the potential to be the best thread since "Why Is Jesus Blinvisible", though. :worry:

Yeah, it'd make a great thread. I love random strangers telling me where I'm going wrong.

[user104658]

Yeah, it'd make a great thread. I love random strangers telling me where I'm going wrong.

:suspect: I sense that you're not being 100% sincere.

[Livia]

:suspect: I sense that you're not being 100% sincere.

There's no fooling you, is there.

[joeysteele]

Hey Joey.

You say we've been here for 40 years but that simply isn't true. The Common Market this country joined in the 1970s bears no resemblance to the monster it has become.

For a long time I was on the fence about Europe and said as much on this forum... that I didn't know enough about it to make an informed decision. I put myself out to research what it meant for me and what I thought it meant for the country. It could have gone either way. Having looked at all the evidence I could get my hands on I have decided that I am going to vote for us to leave.

However, I am not campaigning for the 'Out' campaign, I would encourage everyone to make up their own minds as I have done.

Well yes it wasn't the EU as we knew it but I have read it was said in 1973 and 1975 that this was only the start of us in Europe from the politicians of the time.

It is the EU now but it has over the decades under all govts,moved on from the EEC to the EU, it is still the UK being in Europe.

So all that has happened since 1973 and the flimsy re-negotiations of 1974/5 too has contributed to the growth of the European EU as it is now and also has had its effect on the UKs status too all through those decades too.

So we have seen and know what things are being in Europe as in the EU then as an European Nation which is what we are.

So we know where we are and likely to go, we will not be joining the Euro,no further treaties can be signed without the UK being asked in a referendum,that is now entrenched in law as to Parliament.

However what we don't know is the guarantees of what we will have, get and where we may go if the UK voted to leave.
So I say again, taking the risk of leaving what we know and have now, for something else now with little or even no guarantees seems too big a risk in this modern world for me.

The in people can point to what we have and know, good and bad guaranteed as to the EU.
What the out people need to tell everyone is what we can certainly have and the guarantees of future stability and success after leaving the EU.
All the good and bad of that situation too.

In the absence of that and I cannot find anyone who can give any concrete guarantees even as to what conditions the EU would then impose on us to just even trade with them,then I for one, will prefer to stay with the guarantees we already have and know within the EU.
Not taking any risk as to the future by going into something with no real even basic guarantees.
I'd prefer to really work for change and reform of the EU from within rather than be out and them be able to place on the UK afterwards any charges and conditions they wish for us to have any deals with them.

Yes we will get deals but at what price, again the out people don't and maybe cannot answer that.
Those who don't know ye how they may vote however, should be told all the pitfalls and also the guarantees there will be in place after an exit vote.
Without them,that's a very dangerous thing to vote for in any scenario.

I have been asked many times what has made me decide to vote to stay in,and am always happy to say what that was,surely those who wish to vote out, can enlighten how they came to that decision,if only to help the don't knows who seem to get more and more confused by the media and politicians.
This is a massive decision that will not only affect the UKs status,the economy, the unity of European Nations but it will likely affect massively the lives of UK citizens and all the futures of children in the UK too.
It is their futures we will be voting on and for too,not just ours and the UKs.

Thanks for your response however.

[Cherie]

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

There will be some kind of reciprocal arrangement I'm sure. It's hardly likely that no provision will be made for ex-pats... but they'll undoubtedly miss having a British passport and automatically being able to cross borders... although there's nothing decided as far as I know.

And anyway, is everyone assuming that no one lived or worked abroad before the borders were opened?

There will undoubtedly be a period of adjustment so people can make up their minds where they want to remain. I think this is just something that "In" voters are clinging on to as an argument when they have no more idea than anyone else right now what the answer is, but have decided to look on the bleak side as usual.

It's not an argument "in" voters are clinging to as I haven't heard it mentioned once in any pro or con arguments which is a concern to me. Of course people worked elsewhere before the EU was formed but they would have needed paperwork other than passports to do so.

[bots]

One of the issues that I have over an EU exit is the lack of accountability if it proved to be an unmitigated disaster. The people decided - maybe, but was the decision arrived at knowing all the facts and consequences.

I will happily go along with the majority decision, I have a preference for IN ... but that's as far as it goes, its nothing more than a preference, my world won't end tomorrow if we say OUT. I travelled throughout europe prior to the EU and I will happily travel if we leave.

I believe all the arguments around immigration have been vastly overstated, so if that's seen as 1 of the main reasons to leave, I think people will be sadly disappointed.

On the other side, I don't think leaving Europe will have any real effect on business. People trade and make money, that will never change, and London will probably be a stronger financial center out of Europe than in it.

[joeysteele]

One of the issues that I have over an EU exit is the lack of accountability if it proved to be an unmitigated disaster. The people decided - maybe, but was the decision arrived at knowing all the facts and consequences.

I will happily go along with the majority decision, I have a preference for IN ... but that's as far as it goes, its nothing more than a preference, my world won't end tomorrow if we say OUT. I travelled throughout europe prior to the EU and I will happily travel if we leave.

I believe all the arguments around immigration have been vastly overstated, so if that's seen as 1 of the main reasons to leave, I think people will be sadly disappointed.

On the other side, I don't think leaving Europe will have any real effect on business. People trade and make money, that will never change, and London will probably be a stronger financial center out of Europe than in it.



I agree with all your points.
However I would like to add, trading with the EU will probably be made more costly for us by being out,companies for instance then, going through the UK to trade with the EU may find it less lucrative to do so than say going through France or another Nation that will still be firm members.

This is the thing though,we don't know, we have no guarantees,no one from the out cause can tell us anything concrete and sadly,I think a high number who will vote, will vote as to the immigration issue in a scaremongered false belief that leaving will massively alter that, and that it likely will get far worse if we stayed in.

Your first paragraph is spot on and excellently put, every word of that paragraph is something really important that needs very careful thought by all intending to vote in the referendum, which incredibly may now only be about 4 months away.

[DemolitionRed]

My 'out' thoughts come from big business versus small business. The EU is great for multi pound businesses but its not good for the small fry. Its not good for the skilled workers like bricklayers, plumbers and roofers but lets face it, our old empire only ever benefited those and the top and the EU superstate is just a wider version of that.

My dad often says that he gleefully voted for a Common Market back in 75 but if he'd known that Common Market would morph into a federal state, he would of crossed the 'NO' box.

My entire family want out for varying reasons. I'm billy no mates in my family at the moment.

[Kizzy]

Yeah, it'd make a great thread. I love random strangers telling me where I'm going wrong.

Oh you get used to it, it's no big deal.

[Kizzy]

Just why now, I don't get it while there is so much instability in the world...Is it really just about business?

[the truth]

The british public will be bullied and brainwashed by all the powerful people right from the monarchy to Cameron corbyn lib dems and their rich chums to stay in Europe or else Britain will fall into the English channel.....It's a load of rubbish. weve become enslaved to the EU to the point where were too scared to be without them and their vile wasteful corrupt eltitist money grabbing racket. its basically just like communism, they destroy the individual and national confidence to such a degree you are too scared to leave them. Or even a movie like the Truman show where Truman is controlled by an unscrupulous tv director to the point where he feels powerless to leave.

We are GREAT Britain we have been for centuries and our 4 home nations have been here for 1000s of years before that. We have our own laws, we invented the nhs, we invented parliamentary democracy, we invented the industrial revolution, we can build ships, we can fish, we can dredge our shores, we can build, we can produce our steel and coal and tin and copper , we can produce more of our own green energy, we can fight to get our production costs down.....We have and we can and we don't need any politician from Belgium france Bulgaria or Luxembourg or anywhere else to do it for us.....the entire structure of the EU is set up like pyramid selling where the first few in get all the perks the money the best deals and information...the rest are the suckers who throw in their money their jobs their resources and their sovereignty, in some cases even their currency and interest rates too......Guess what happened to those countries BANKRUPT BANKRUPT BANKRUPT BANKRUPT BANKRUPT ETC ETC again and again and again. In the case of Italy we have the horrifying spectacle of the German chancellor actually replacing the democratically elected Italian government and no one said a word?
UNBELIEVABLE

Those clowns who called us little Englanders and bigots because we didn't give in when they demanded we give up the pound 10 / 15 years ago . where are they now? if we listened to their demands we would really be sunk in the irish sea
endless nations bankrupted, no growth , in some cases 40% unemployment rates, youth unemployment at over 50% in some nations....and these nations ARE POWERLESS FOREVER TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? THEY HAVE TO GO TO GERMANYS CHANCELLOR WITH A BEGGING BOWL? THE EU EVEN ENSLAVES US TO CORPORATIONS EVER MORE SO , AS SMALL BUSINESSES CANNOT AFFORD TO DEAL WITH THEIR INFINITE RED TAPE....(ALTHOUGH A CORPORATE BACKED COMPANY LIKE UBER CABS , WORTH £0 BILLION, IS ALLOWED TO MARCH THROUGH EUROPE UNREGULATED) COUNTRIES MUST HAVE AUTONOMY OVER THEIR OWN NATION, THEIR OWN LAWS, THEIR OWN RESOURCES, THEIR OWN MEANS OF PRODUCTION, THEIR OWN MINERALS AND RICHES, THEIR OWN TAXES, THEIR OWN EXPENDITURE, THEIR OWN CURRENCY, THEIR OWN INTEREST RATES...THATS WHAT A COUNTRY IS....WITHOUT THESE THINGS YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY , YOURE MERELY A STATE RULED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY- GERMANY

Take a look at Greece and see how disastrous they've been hit......the biggest ship builders in Europe now barely making a tug boat, train prices more pricey than taxis, yet more weapons than almost every nation on earth, enforced upon them by merkels Germany and giving them monstrous debts at enormous interest rates that will go on forever...http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03gk743/greece-with-simon-reeve-episode-1

To those who succumb to the fear and bullying , remember this. The sun will still rise, the nation will not fall into the sea. Our jobs will not be lost. We can remain as a trading partner. In fact we will become more popular and more successful as our small and medium businesses will not be strangled by the 75000 word EU constitution of laws, rules and regulations. We will save ourselves £13 billion per annum for starters. Trust me the EU project will continue to fail anyway. The structure is designed to fail (except for Germany and Austria) even French unemployment has sky rocket to 11%. UK unemployment for all the tory hate, has almost halved to 5.1% and we have created more new jobs in the last 6 years than the rest of Europe put together (2.3 million). We can make cross country agreements, we can remain in the UN, NATO, THE G8, THE G20, THE CRUCIAL OECD (ORGANIZATION FOR ECONOMIC CO-OPERATION AND DEVELOPMENT) AND DOZENS MORE WORLDWIDE CROSS NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, THE FISHERIES, ARMS, MIGRATION ETC

The EU creates the fake illusion of a false sense of security, except its the exact opposite, it makes everyone big bloated , confused and powerless to change when you need to change, to move when you need to move, when a disaster falls upon you, you need to move fast, you don't need to run it by 30 countries, 500,000 people, 70,000 pages of laws, and 1000s of politicians.

[joeysteele]

What Alex is saying, I think, is that as with the Scottish referendum, it simply won't be a loowed to happen. Such a major shift in global politics simply won't be left in the hands of the British public in any real or meaningful way.

I'm inclined to agree with him. It's a charade, its only purpose being to appease people who are (correctly) starting to feel powerless / controlled, and to take the question off the table for another 50 years.

I do sincerely hope Alex is right and the vote is to stay in.
I have made it clear I will vote to stay in.

However the difference,and big difference, between the Scots independence referendum and this one will be, there is a perception that the EU is to blame for the failure to control fully the immigration issue,it being presented as near all bad by those against immigration,by UKIP in particular, who blame it for all the UKs ills almost.

If people go out to vote with that in their heads then I can really see a narrow exit vote.
I have talked to so many people of all political persuasion, who really do seriously believe that the UK leaving the EU, will bring to an end all unwanted immigration.
That to me is extremely worrying that such a lie can be presented as fact and so many are taken in by it.

[DemolitionRed]

I do sincerely hope Alex is right and the vote is to stay in.
I have made it clear I will vote to stay in.

However the difference,and big difference, between the Scots independence referendum and this one will be, there is a perception that the EU is to blame for the failure to control fully the immigration issue,it being presented as near all bad by those against immigration,by UKIP in particular, who blame it for all the UKs ills almost.

If people go out to vote with that in their heads then I can really see a narrow exit vote.
I have talked to so many people of all political persuasion, who really do seriously believe that the UK leaving the EU, will bring to an end all unwanted immigration.
That to me is extremely worrying that such a lie can be presented as fact and so many are taken in by it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears this over and over again. From what was said on here earlier, I had started to wonder if I'd imagined those conversations :hehe:

[the truth]

I do sincerely hope Alex is right and the vote is to stay in.
I have made it clear I will vote to stay in.

However the difference,and big difference, between the Scots independence referendum and this one will be, there is a perception that the EU is to blame for the failure to control fully the immigration issue,it being presented as near all bad by those against immigration,by UKIP in particular, who blame it for all the UKs ills almost.

If people go out to vote with that in their heads then I can really see a narrow exit vote.
I have talked to so many people of all political persuasion, who really do seriously believe that the UK leaving the EU, will bring to an end all unwanted immigration.
That to me is extremely worrying that such a lie can be presented as fact and so many are taken in by it.

I doubt anyone really believes that

[joeysteele]

I doubt anyone really believes that

Doubt all you like but I know what people tell me to my face and I am hearing that more and more.

[joeysteele]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears this over and over again. From what was said on here earlier, I had started to wonder if I'd imagined those conversations :hehe:

Not at all,they go on all the time, and the worrying thing is the people who think that way are the people who will certainly go out to vote, no matter when the referendum is held.

[the truth]

Doubt all you like but I know what people tell me to my face and I am hearing that more and more.

You're clearly exaggerating when they say, you've spoken to so many people who say they think brexit "will bring an end to all unwanted immigration."

I don't believe all these people worded it like that. No doubt many think it will be more controlled, though illegal I migrants will slip through the net. The liberals will continue to paint the euro sceptics as racists. Whilst seemingly overlooking the fact there are over 3000 estimated terrorists in the uK now and ignoring the vast abuses by radical muslims across the Uk and the western world.The 320000+ people murdered by these terrorists worldwide last year, the child abuses across Rotherham for over a decade, the brainwash in some schools , the rapes and molestations etc etc

[joeysteele]

You're clearly exaggerating when they say, you've spoken to so many people who say they think brexit "will bring an end to all unwanted immigration."

I don't believe all these people worded it like that. No doubt many think it will be more controlled, though illegal I migrants will slip through the net. The liberals will continue to paint the euro sceptics as racists. Whilst seemingly overlooking the fact there are over 3000 estimated terrorists in the uK now and ignoring the vast abuses by radical muslims across the Uk and the western world.The 320000+ people murdered by these terrorists worldwide last year, the child abuses across Rotherham for over a decade, the brainwash in some schools , the rapes and molestations etc etc

I think you want to be careful how you word things and stop inferring and calling people liars.

You challenge others on their posts yet hardly ever substantiate a lot of your claims and statistics.
I live and breathe politics, I talk to loads of people and not just people who think like me because I like to hear opposing and other views from anyone who at least shows respect to other people.

How I word anything that anyone may say to me is how they said it to me,so kindly stop questioning my integrity and inferring people are either stupid, that they don't know what others have said to them or that they are lying.

You really are one of the most offensive people on here,'in my opinion only admittedly' which is why I in the main avoid even conversing with you,however once you question me as to my posts with insulting inferences then I have to respond if only to not let you or others on here think you may even be 0.1% right.
So kindly cut out inferring anyone would lie on here as to what people say to them when they talk to them.
It stuns me you still get away with it so often.

However back on topic, at least your posts on here just convince me more and more as to how right I feel as to voting to stay in the EU. So well done for that.

[bots]

On the subject of businesses being affected by leaving europe, our current trading partners will still want to trade, they make money from the deal too, so why would they stop. We may be subject to some import/export restrictions, but there have always been ways to get round those, so no difference there. Consumers may see some localised price fluctuations, but those will likely be offset with there being fewer EU regulations to be complied with. So, localised changes yes, overall bad for business, I think not, and to suggest otherwise is scaremongering.

[the truth]

I think you want to be careful how you word things and stop inferring and calling people liars.

You challenge others on their posts yet hardly ever substantiate a lot of your claims and statistics.
I live and breathe politics, I talk to loads of people and not just people who think like me because I like to hear opposing and other views from anyone who at least shows respect to other people.

How I word anything that anyone may say to me is how they said it to me,so kindly stop questioning my integrity and inferring people are either stupid, that they don't know what others have said to them or that they are lying.

You really are one of the most offensive people on here,'in my opinion only admittedly' which is why I in the main avoid even conversing with you,however once you question me as to my posts with insulting inferences then I have to respond if only to not let you or others on here think you may even be 0.1% right.
So kindly cut out inferring anyone would lie on here as to what people say to them when they talk to them.
It stuns me you still get away with it so often.

However back on topic, at least your posts on here just convince me more and more as to how right I feel as to voting to stay in the EU. So well done for that.

I still don't believe you ps as for you voting to stay in he EU to spite people like me that really says it all lol How does the introduction of sharia law as a result of mass immigration sit with you? laws which massively discriminate against all muslim women? just 1 example of the EU you support

[Kizzy]

What is the connection between sharia law and the EU?

[the truth]

What is the connection between sharia law and the EU?

I just explained it in the simplest terms possible just for you lol

[kirklancaster]

I was hoping to post a quite comprehensive post tonight (well the last 2 days really) detailing just why I want out, but I woke up at 2.20 am after just 3 hours sleep and have just come in from a 11 hour shift - working on my own non stop bloody plastering - and I am quite knackered. I guess Old Father Time is finally catching up with me. :bawling:

[Kizzy]

I just explained it in the simplest terms possible just for you lol

I don't get how sharia law will end if we leave the EU? I missed that.

[joeysteele]

I still don't believe you ps as for you voting to stay in he EU to spite people like me that really says it all lol How does the introduction of sharia law as a result of mass immigration sit with you? laws which massively discriminate against all muslim women? just 1 example of the EU you support

You are just really being insulting now and should not really be worth any of my time and effort.

What unrelated tripe are you trying to bring into the debate now for goodness sake.
I couldn't care one jot whether you believe what I post or not,it is however a bit rich coming from someone who flies in with all sorts of statements that at times are not even related to the thread in question but which also seem to be wild statements.

I said because of the way you present things as an 'out' person, with insults and personal attacks on others opinions with not an ounce of respect for them as equal members and people too,that is what helps convince me that your arguments are lost on me,because of how you present and say things as to others, not necessarily what the content may be.

You are a businessman and clearly educated,however your attitude to others on here is,in my view, totally disgusting and should be absolutely unacceptable at times too.

[joeysteele]

I don't get how sharia law will end if we leave the EU? I missed that.

Nor me, quite frankly.

[bots]

I don't get how sharia law will end if we leave the EU? I missed that.

Every single issue around immigration will seemingly be resolved by leaving the EU. Immigration is necessary for the UK's growth, and it will continue regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. Also, for every immigrant we reduce the benefits payments for, we will pay out with the other hand supporting all the ex pats we have currently in Europe (most of whom are retired and won't be contributing to the wealth of the community)

All the immigrant debate is being taken from one viewpoint only, and its not even close to an accurate and balanced representation of reality.

If we do end up out of Europe, and immigration proves to be the decisive reason, it will all have been for nothing, zip, zilch.

[joeysteele]

Every single issue around immigration will seemingly be resolved by leaving the EU. Immigration is necessary for the UK's growth, and it will continue regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. Also, for every immigrant we reduce the benefits payments for, we will pay out with the other hand supporting all the ex pats we have currently in Europe (most of whom are retired and won't be contributing to the wealth of the community)

All the immigrant debate is being taken from one viewpoint only, and its not even close to an accurate and balanced representation of reality.

If we do end up out of Europe, and immigration proves to be the decisive reason, it will all have been for nothing, zip, zilch.


I totally agree with you.

[lostalex]

I don't get how sharia law will end if we leave the EU? I missed that.

I think the line of thinking is that the more Muslims you allow into the country the more likely they are to try to implement Muslim law into the politics of Britain.

...which makes sense to me. That seems logical doesn't it?

[bots]

I think the line of thinking is that the more Muslims you allow into the country the more likely they are to try to implement Muslim law into the politics of Britain.

...which makes sense to me. That seems logical doesn't it?

Yes, but the population of Europe is not muslim, so exiting europe will have next to no effect on proportions of muslims within the UK. People seem to think that if we exit Europe, all immigration stops, and it quite simply doesn't. The association with Europe and muslims is misguided. If we are subject to illegal immigration, then exiting europe will have no effect on that either. There is way to much misunderstanding and/or lack of knowledge of the real issues.

[Kizzy]

Thanks that's just what I was referring to.

[arista]

Held up by petty Greece
and now Poland buggering it up.

8PM is now Confirmed Dinner

so it goes on after that.


Ref: SkyNewsHD, BBCNewsHD, CNN ,
Radio5 , LBC

[bots]

Just confirmed, unanimous support for the UK EU deal!

[Will.]

What does this mean?

[bots]

it means that Cameron has successfully negotiated a better deal for the UK in the EU, now it will trigger the referendum here

[joeysteele]

it means that Cameron has successfully negotiated a better deal for the UK in the EU, now it will trigger the referendum here

To be really fair to him, he has in my view done a good job here.
He has got more than I believed he would and I applaud his determination and persistence to get a 'real' deal and not a fudge.

[bots]

To be really fair to him, he has in my view done a good job here.
He has got more than I believed he would and I applaud his determination and persistence to get a 'real' deal and not a fudge.

I don't think he could really fail. If the EU folks had said get stuffed, the referendum would have been a runaway out vote

[arista]

What does this mean?

23 June

Vote In or Out

[DemolitionRed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768
Has anyone heard any news today?