Coronavirus Outbreak

[Nicky91]

netherlands todays numbers

6,093 new cases (126 more than yesterday)

1902 in hospital now (compared to 1,961 yesterday)

[joeysteele]

No one is trying to deflect the seriousness of it. I can appreciate that this is a highly emotional subject for many people, for many very good reasons... However, that's not really a debate or understanding of Covid-19 itself, rather a discussion about the individual and emotional impact of the pandemic.

Not that I'm against those discussions being had - but for me personally, that's not what I'm in this thread for, so I'm not going to enter into an emotive argument whilst trying to discuss the facts. I'll just steer away from commenting on the more emotive posts but I'm not going to promise that I'll stop correcting information that I think is flawed - specifically because I think too much emotionally charged anecdotal information is actually damaging to the emotional wellbeing of many people, and is worth tempering for that reason. I feel for everyone who has lost someone in this pandemic, but I don't find it a valid reason that they should be allowed to send other people off on panic-spirals unchecked.

So I'm not going to continue to argue about this, because it isn't sitting well with me.

However as a final thought, I do personally think the conversations should be separated. That's not my decision, though.



The thread is about Corona virus.

About all aspects of it, the effects of it and those who have been in the front line of experiences of it and effects of it.

It's NOT just to suit those who take statistics at their every word.

Just about all the past statistics on this have been wrong or altered.
Even to the time of frame of recording deaths from it.

It doesn't sit well with you hearing others devastating losses and all they've seen to be wrong in the whole process.

Well it doesn't sit well with me who has lost 4 from my life..
Apologies for daring to get uncomfortably emotive for some..

To just see the diminishing of who'll get it, who'll die from it from statistical information only.
Which has been shown to be flawed itself several times.

The experience of losing people to this virus, seeing the effects of long term covid on some who've survived, that's real factual experience which cannot be flawed as you seem to possibly indicate.

I make no apologies for any emotiveness I convey following the loss of loved ones from my life unnecessarily before their time.

If that doesn't sit comfortably with you, then sorry, with respect, that's your problem, not mine.

[Nicky91]

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1330167333365551104

[Nicky91]

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1330133867437588480

some data as to the 9 EU countries what is known so far who gets how much money, 14 Billion have been invested, keeping people in work during the pandemic, saving jobs

[user104658]

The thread is about Corona virus.

About all aspects of it, the effects of it and those who have been in the front line of experiences of it and effects of it.

It's NOT just to suit those who take statistics at their every word.

Just about all the past statistics on this have been wrong or altered.
Even to the time of frame of recording deaths from it.

It doesn't sit well with you hearing others devastating losses and all they've seen to be wrong in the whole process.

Well it doesn't sit well with me who has lost 4 from my life..
Apologies for daring to get uncomfortably emotive for some..

To just see the diminishing of who'll get it, who'll die from it from statistical information only.
Which has been shown to be flawed itself several times.

The experience of losing people to this virus, seeing the effects of long term covid on some who've survived, that's real factual experience which cannot be flawed as you seem to possibly indicate.

I make no apologies for any emotiveness I convey following the loss of loved ones from my life unnecessarily before their time.

If that doesn't sit comfortably with you, then sorry, with respect, that's your problem, not mine.Likewise Joey, your own personal experiences of the last year are not reason nor justification for attempting to shut other people down who have a different perspective and are following the science and evidence that you, subjectively, don't agree with - nor is it an excuse to be angry at those people, or expect them to stay quiet or say nothing in the face of that anger out of sympathy.

I do have empathy for you in having lost people to Covid. I haven't lost anyone in this last year but I am well aware of what loss is - you may say I'm lucky not to have lost anyone, I would counter that I don't consider only having one family member over 40 left (my dad) - and therefore not many people TO lose to Covid - particularly "lucky" and, thus, I am well aware of what loss is and how it feels.

So yes I'm sympathetic for your losses but they don't negate the observed science or the facts of Covid-19 as a virus, they don't justify lashing out at people for having a different opinion when otherwise unprovoked, and my sympathies are not enough for me to accept being shouted down in a debate thread for choosing to assess the world based on objectivity and facts wherever possible over and above subjective feelings and personal anecdotes.

I suspect you'll continue to be angry with me for this. I understand why. It's not enough for me to change track or stay quiet, sorry.

[user104658]

I should clarify that I don't mean I'm going to continue arguing over it and saying you're wrong - again I understand your stance on this. However your stance isn't going to stop me from posting from a more objective position based on the bigger picture, and when you respond to that with personal anger, I'm just going to have to accept but unfortunately ultimately skip past those posts.

[Kizzy]

No one is trying to deflect the seriousness of it. I can appreciate that this is a highly emotional subject for many people, for many very good reasons... However, that's not really a debate or understanding of Covid-19 itself, rather a discussion about the individual and emotional impact of the pandemic.

Not that I'm against those discussions being had - but for me personally, that's not what I'm in this thread for, so I'm not going to enter into an emotive argument whilst trying to discuss the facts. I'll just steer away from commenting on the more emotive posts but I'm not going to promise that I'll stop correcting information that I think is flawed - specifically because I think too much emotionally charged anecdotal information is actually damaging to the emotional wellbeing of many people, and is worth tempering for that reason. I feel for everyone who has lost someone in this pandemic, but I don't find it a valid reason that they should be allowed to send other people off on panic-spirals unchecked.

So I'm not going to continue to argue about this, because it isn't sitting well with me.

However as a final thought, I do personally think the conversations should be separated. That's not my decision, though.
Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?

Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

[arista]

19,875 today have tested for Covid-19

Patients in hospital
16,390

Patients on ventilation
1,421

Today 341 have died

54,326 Total UK deaths.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[user104658]

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?



Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.I don't know what in my post gave you the impression I was talking to you, Kizzy.

[joeysteele]

Likewise Joey, your own personal experiences of the last year are not reason nor justification for attempting to shut other people down who have a different perspective and are following the science and evidence that you, subjectively, don't agree with - nor is it an excuse to be angry at those people, or expect them to stay quiet or say nothing in the face of that anger out of sympathy.

I do have empathy for you in having lost people to Covid. I haven't lost anyone in this last year but I am well aware of what loss is - you may say I'm lucky not to have lost anyone, I would counter that I don't consider only having one family member over 40 left (my dad) - and therefore not many people TO lose to Covid - particularly "lucky" and, thus, I am well aware of what loss is and how it feels.

So yes I'm sympathetic for your losses but they don't negate the observed science or the facts of Covid-19 as a virus, they don't justify lashing out at people for having a different opinion when otherwise unprovoked, and my sympathies are not enough for me to accept being shouted down in a debate thread for choosing to assess the world based on objectivity and facts wherever possible over and above subjective feelings and personal anecdotes.

I suspect you'll continue to be angry with me for this. I understand why. It's not enough for me to change track or stay quiet, sorry.



Likewise.
Also don't dare accuse me of shutting others down.
Just because I call their view out on this.

I have put my point my way from experience of this virus.
Not statistics,not diminishing of others sad experiences of it.

You continue with your statistics.

Yes though,likewise to you.
I'll stick with how I feel on this virus.

At least I can empathise without any need of statistics with people who've suffered with and because of this virus.

Good luck to you trusting in only statistics.
You'll need lots of luck for sure.

[user104658]

Like I said Joey, you're attacking and being rude, and my empathy doesn't extend to ignoring that. Your own upset is not an excuse for getting personal, in any circumstance.

[Crimson Dynamo]

as far as i am aware its science that created a vaccine

not anecdotal personal evidence..

[joeysteele]

Like I said Joey, you're attacking and being rude, and my empathy doesn't extend to ignoring that. Your own upset is not an excuse for getting personal, in any circumstance.

I refute all those accusations from you 100%
Just for the record.

Think what you like.
I've got your message loud and clear.

[joeysteele]

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?

Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

He's getting at me Kizzy.
Don't worry.

[MTVN]

Great to see cases and deaths way down today

[Crimson Dynamo]

Great to see cases and deaths way down today

it is

:clap1:

[Kizzy]

This....so I'll just ask again.

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?

Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

I'll go with what's shown in the statistics and verified facts rather than theories in the press thankyou Kizzy, and I don't particularly feel the need to apologise for that. It is helpful to have a realistic perspective on who is most likely to be affected, so that we can prioritise shielding, treatment, and the order in which any vaccine should be delivered.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30783-0/fulltext

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4470

[Beso]

Merry xmas everyone..I appreciate you all...keep thy Chinas oop..

[Kizzy]

Like I said Joey, you're attacking and being rude, and my empathy doesn't extend to ignoring that. Your own upset is not an excuse for getting personal, in any circumstance.

Nobody is attacking you... what an unnecessarily emotive response. Joey is right ordinarily you have been sceptical of statistics not on this seemingly, which is odd.
What is rude is presuming you have some kind of logical gig round here, you don't, simply ignoring the opinions of others offhand as based on nothing is rude.

You've been challenged and you don't like it that's all.

[Beso]

as far as i am aware its science that created a vaccine

not anecdotal personal evidence..

Yet nature created the virus..?

I reckon its 1-1 now..

Can we just have a last minute winner please. Cause I dont fancy the extra time...ot the potential penalty shoot out either.

[user104658]

simply ignoring the opinions of others offhand as based on nothing is rude.

Again, I'm not the one ignoring the thoughts and opinions of others on this thread, I'm replying to some quite specific things, whilst noting people being responded to with unwarranted/unprompted anger for "daring" to question hyperbolic anecdotal claims that have little bearing on the objective reality of the situation.

e.g;

"The virus is mostly dangerous to the elderly and deaths/serious side effects in the young are rare, the data on that is very clear."

"NO IT'S WRONG because I know someone young who had it worse than that and thus you are not taking Covid seriously enough/playing it down"

This is not an argument that has any place in an actual meaningful discussion of the situation. As I said, I'm sympathetic to people's individual circumstances but they don't have meaningful bearing on the overall data.

The phrase "damn lies and statistics" that Joey quoted points out that statistics CAN be manipulated when people have ulterior motives; I can think of multiple examples of the government doing this with Covid, but it's not happening on any sort of scale amongst epidemiologists and virologists, nor is there any reason it would be. It absolutely does NOT mean, nor was it ever intended to mean that individual experience is more meaningful or more likely to paint an accurate picture on a large scale than statistics.

Covid-19 is quite obviously serious and I haven't seen many examples at all of people on here trying to make out that it's "nothing" - this isn't a Trump rally - what I do see is people keeping a level head and assessing the situation based on the actually available information, and others saying "UMM NO, you should PANIC actually because [list of experiences]". To be blunt, that's not helpful for anyone and actively harmful to many. And it's often stated in anger. So it deserves to be challenged.

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/L2uKgJZz_jzyNbLPbpMaGg/https/media.fyre.co/q2ws5sssRiCNhxDaZcN6_Sunday%20Times.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/h0wJ6ZQe5gjH3lCT13C6sg/https/media.fyre.co/EbO7MCRVSNuRl7YjFiDt_Sunday%20Telegraph.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/vC6dYHRxA8ga-Cj8yIRJRQ/https/media.fyre.co/pca4r9c1QQxxL8wb6e1U_Sunday%20Express.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/waxrtyaSNiqLZTxakQjY1Q/https/media.fyre.co/VSMtbJSvW9hJP5wiPkZw_sunday%20mirror.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/O2PeTnvb7LjNlSk3SZO6pQ/https/media.fyre.co/uiU9W7FGQp6CPhKmdleo_Observer.JPG

[joeysteele]

:clap1:

I totally agree with you Joey

Thank you.
Sorry I j saw this and thought I'd responded.

I just don't hold with statistics.
I never really have trusted them.

For instance at weekends we get lesser numbers of recorded death figures.

We don't really know the true infection rates.
The track and trace sources have admitted only about half of those who've been in contact with someone confirmed with it, are likely being reached at all.

All we do know is a second wave came, is here and has taken now again thousands of lives.

Those are lives lost and no matter how much huffing and puffing is done by the statisticians and those who religiously believe the presentations.

I care about those thousands of lives lost unnecessarily.
Not about branding figures about.

As Scarlett said, the main thing is getting this detestable virus dealt with.
I'm going to get emotion filled again, having lost 4 special people already, I fear,yes fear losing anymore..
I'll never make apologies for that and certainly never for figures on charts.
Supposedly telling me things aren't as they seem or not to be concerned.

No way as to that for me.

[Beso]

I just had a txt from my cousin. Alan's his name.

His daughter is some rugby player I can tell you that.

Well her mum, and my cousins wife is the same age as me. Shes had the covid since the 10th, shes overweight and an ex smoker sucking on the fake fag now..

His last txt said... shes had it rough..

Covid is a twat, no doubt about it.

[Kizzy]

Again, I'm not the one ignoring the thoughts and opinions of others on this thread, I'm replying to some quite specific things, whilst noting people being responded to with unwarranted/unprompted anger for "daring" to question hyperbolic anecdotal claims that have little bearing on the objective reality of the situation.

e.g;

"The virus is mostly dangerous to the elderly and deaths/serious side effects in the young are rare, the data on that is very clear."

"NO IT'S WRONG because I know someone young who had it worse than that and thus you are not taking Covid seriously enough/playing it down"

This is not an argument that has any place in an actual meaningful discussion of the situation. As I said, I'm sympathetic to people's individual circumstances but they don't have meaningful bearing on the overall data.

The phrase "damn lies and statistics" that Joey quoted points out that statistics CAN be manipulated when people have ulterior motives; I can think of multiple examples of the government doing this with Covid, but it's not happening on any sort of scale amongst epidemiologists and virologists, nor is there any reason it would be. It absolutely does NOT mean, nor was it ever intended to mean that individual experience is more meaningful or more likely to paint an accurate picture on a large scale than statistics.

Covid-19 is quite obviously serious and I haven't seen many examples at all of people on here trying to make out that it's "nothing" - this isn't a Trump rally - what I do see is people keeping a level head and assessing the situation based on the actually available information, and others saying "UMM NO, you should PANIC actually because [list of experiences]". To be blunt, that's not helpful for anyone and actively harmful to many. And it's often stated in anger. So it deserves to be challenged.


So where are the anecdotal hyperbolic claims... and where are your concrete stats that you're basing all your baseless opinions on... are we just meant to accept your musings without question?

I'll ignore your ranting, post some evidence or stop posting your opinion as fact and getting huffy when others pull you on it.

[user104658]

So where are the anecdotal hyperbolic claims... and where are your concrete stats that you're basing all your baseless opinions on... are we just meant to accept your musings without question?

I'll ignore your ranting, post some evidence or stop posting your opinion as fact and getting huffy when others pull you on it.

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

[Kizzy]

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

You're not the forum police are you? You dont have to chelp up for anyone.

My reply was to you, and you quoted bots and lt. ..nothing to do with Joey. It was my comment you rubbished with your dismissive rather patronising reply. Your silly old snipe has not made reference to the links to the articles I posted that my earlier comment referenced . Nothing whatsoever to do with gut feelings sausage.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/21/21/35952458-0-image-a-4_1605995682842.jpg

After 10PM
you can take your time to leave the Pub
but not being served after 10PM

[AnnieK]

Greater Manchester rates continuing to fall by an average of 22% across all 10 boroughs. One area is now at the national average. We are getting there finally!

[Ammi]

Great Manchester rates continuing to fall by an average of 22% across all 10 boroughs. One area is now at the national average. We are getting there finally!

....yeah I was just reading the Manchester Evening News, it’s all looking terrific, Annie....and you all so deserve to see those rates going the way they are atm...:hug:...

[bots]

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

you just don't get it do you. Hundreds of people are dying every day. Thats a fact, One just happened to be a personal friend of mine late last week. To see LT saying his friend has had worse colds and playing down the virus is completely insensitive and certainly struck home with me after such a recent loss. It has absolutely nothing to do with statistics

[joeysteele]

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

I didn't want to post this but have to as you've made a serious accusation against me as to another member.
Which should only be a mods place to do so in any event.
So I'm going to defend myself against you.
With something any mod can bear me out on too.

When I am talking about those diminishing this virus.
I am talking about anyone, also the people off here, not just on here and I never mention any names.
As to the member you mention.
I never snapped that member's head off at all.

Since I have nothing to do with that member and don't interact with them at all.
In any way whatsoever.

So talk about yourself TS.
Not hide behind supposedly protecting others.

I have my train of thought on this virus and I challenge anything on here and off here as to it from my perspective.

People can disagree with me however that doesn't make my points any less valid than yours.

HOWEVER not at all.
Have I snapped that member's head off because I never now respond to them anyway, for from the past and now for MY own peace of mind on here.

So from now just leave my name OUT of your posts please.

Especially if you're going to wrongly infer you need to protect another member from me.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that reads in print.

I don't agree with your immovable stance on statistics which you present as near gospel only immaterial of others experiences.

I look at this virus from my and others angles not just relying on warped statistics, which aren't even giving the right account of all deaths.
With only deaths from diagnosis being recorded within 28 days.

I'll never agree with your rigid take on this virus from your statistics trust.
Just as you'll never agree with my take on things from my own personal and others personal experiences.
Plus my now distrust of only statistics.

[AnnieK]

I'm going the throw my two penneth in here and play devil's advocate a little.

Logically, statistically and scientifically we know now that Covid19 is a virus that is particularly dangerous to the elderly and vulnerable. However, there have been cases of seemingly healthy younger people who have succumbed to it. Each loss of life leaves a massive hole in a families lives. So that impact should never be overlooked.

However, I honestly don't think that is what is happening here. I think people are approaching the conversation from two different angles, one from a purely scientific and one from an emotive one.

To put it another way. I lost my mum in 2014 from cancer. 4 weeks from diagnosis to death. Now logically, I know that was unlucky and most cancers can be treated to give a longer life and a lot can be cured. Doesn't stop me from going into a tailspin ever time cancer is mentioned. I have families members who have recovered from cancer after my mum passed but I cannot get passed her death to rationalise it properly. To me cancer = death.

I think personal experience goes a long way in your thought processes and actions regarding circumstances you find yourself in. Joey and BOTs have lost people close to them and so have a view of the virus that is completely different to TS and LT who haven't had their personal lives affected in the same way (and TS has another viewpoint due to his wife working throughout in the NHS so has a medical view also).

Joey and BOTs, I am very sorry for your losses. :love:

[arista]

Greater Manchester rates continuing to fall by an average of 22% across all 10 boroughs. One area is now at the national average. We are getting there finally!


And the pubs staying open after 10PM
so not such a rush to leave all at once.
Could help

No servings, after 10PM though

[arista]

I just had a txt from my cousin. Alan's his name.

His daughter is some rugby player I can tell you that.

Well her mum, and my cousins wife is the same age as me. Shes had the covid since the 10th, shes overweight and an ex smoker sucking on the fake fag now..

His last txt said... shes had it rough..

Covid is a twat, no doubt about it.


Yes China's Covid
is messing up our lives

[Ammi]

I'm going the throw my two penneth in here and play devil's advocate a little.

Logically, statistically and scientifically we know now that Covid19 is a virus that is particularly dangerous to the elderly and vulnerable. However, there have been cases of seemingly healthy younger people who have succumbed to it. Each loss of life leaves a massive hole in a families lives. So that impact should never be overlooked.

However, I honestly don't think that is what is happening here. I think people are approaching the conversation from two different angles, one from a purely scientific and one from an emotive one.

To put it another way. I lost my mum in 2014 from cancer. 4 weeks from diagnosis to death. Now logically, I know that was unlucky and most cancers can be treated to give a longer life and a lot can be cured. Doesn't stop me from going into a tailspin ever time cancer is mentioned. I have families members who have recovered from cancer after my mum passed but I cannot get passed her death to rationalise it properly. To me cancer = death.

I think personal experience goes a long way in your thought processes and actions regarding circumstances you find yourself in. Joey and BOTs have lost people close to them and so have a view of the virus that is completely different to TS and LT who haven't had their personal lives affected in the same way (and TS has another viewpoint due to his wife working throughout in the NHS so has a medical view also).

Joey and BOTs, I am very sorry for your losses. :love:


...it’s a strange thing, Annie... because we’re all living the same virus and yet we’re not all living the same virus and haven’t throughout, you know...from the beginning I think that’s been apparent how individual lives have impacted so differently in many ways and in many aspects, as well as personal loss...that’s been so obvious in talking to families, how many additions there are to the emotional for some...and with something as huge as this and as devastating to lives and restrictive to lives as COVID has been, every individual has to find their own way of dealing with, you know...while also realising the sensitivity because our ‘COVIDs’ are so vastly different....


....as well as BOTs and Joey, I’m so sorry to hear your loss as well, Scarlett...:hug:...

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnauWgMW4AEydy7?format=jpg&name=medium

[Ammi]

Exclusive: Two Covid tests a week could win people a 'freedom pass'...

People are set to be given "freedom passes" to allow them to live as normal a life as possible as long as they have two negative coronavirus tests a week, under a plan to get the country back to normal next year.

Under the scheme, which is still being developed by Whitehall officials, people could be given the passes as long as they can show they have been regularly tested for Covid-19.

People who are found to be Covid-free would be given a card, a letter or document that can be stored on their phone to show they can move around. Regular tests would be needed to ensure that they qualify for the certificates.

A source familiar with the plans said that the scheme would allow people to lead as normal a life as possible while the Government's vaccine programme gets up to speed on a mass scale early in the new year.

The source said: "They will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App."

The source added that the passes would allow people "to see their family, and normal social distancing rules will not apply".

...full article...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-two-covid-tests-week-164848634.html

[arista]

A rare Sunday Cabinet Meeting today
will debate Covid Restrictions after 2nd of Dec,
and Parliament matters.


Johnson on screen
of course

[user104658]

you just don't get it do you. Hundreds of people are dying every day. Thats a fact, One just happened to be a personal friend of mine late last week. To see LT saying his friend has had worse colds and playing down the virus is completely insensitive and certainly struck home with me after such a recent loss. It has absolutely nothing to do with statistics

Again Bots, I do have sympathy for everyone's losses, and my response to these posts would be completely different if they were in General Chat or if I was talking to someone directly, but this is the SD section and my feeling (still, despite the various attempts to shame me for it) is that the discussion here should be more academic, more pragmatic, and based in scientific fact and not people's individual experiences when trying to wrestle out the facts relating to the pandemic. I'm not willing to ignore people poo-pooing medical science and statistics in favour of their own subjective experiences, whilst at the same time championing vaccines and lockdowns that are the product of medical science and statistics. It's the SD thread about Covid, it's not a support thread, and this thread and section is frankly not appropriate for people who are struggling with related recent personal loss. Like I said before - I've experienced personal loss, plenty of it, and I'm well aware that I'm not always able to engage in level-headed discussions on the associated topics and I fully understand that people have lost loved ones to Covid and that the same applies. I'm not and haven't minimised Covid, nor its impact on people. And whilst I understand people's hurt and frustration coming out in conversations with others, I fundamentally don't think it's something that should go unmentioned or excused, and I don't think anyone should have to avoid discussing the facts and figures of a global pandemic for fear that it might upset people who have sadly suffered disproportionate loss.

I'm aware that this probably comes across as cold. But there are many sections on this forum, and if this one isn't the place to discuss the science of the virus without impacting people's emotions and getting backlash for that, I don't know where is.

[Cherie]

Exclusive: Two Covid tests a week could win people a 'freedom pass'...

People are set to be given "freedom passes" to allow them to live as normal a life as possible as long as they have two negative coronavirus tests a week, under a plan to get the country back to normal next year.

Under the scheme, which is still being developed by Whitehall officials, people could be given the passes as long as they can show they have been regularly tested for Covid-19.

People who are found to be Covid-free would be given a card, a letter or document that can be stored on their phone to show they can move around. Regular tests would be needed to ensure that they qualify for the certificates.

A source familiar with the plans said that the scheme would allow people to lead as normal a life as possible while the Government's vaccine programme gets up to speed on a mass scale early in the new year.

The source said: "They will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App."

The source added that the passes would allow people "to see their family, and normal social distancing rules will not apply".

...full article...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-two-covid-tests-week-164848634.html

Will this be free? Doubtful


Who is asking people why they are not wearing a mask, :laugh: if I see someone not wearing one I don’t think much of it tbh, what grinds my gears is someone wearing a mask on their chin ..what’s the point just take it off and stop pretending that you care

[user104658]

Will this be free? Doubtful


Who is asking people why they are not wearing a mask, :laugh: if I see someone not wearing one I don’t think much of it tbh, what grinds my gears is someone wearing a mask on their chin ..what’s the point just take it off and stop pretending that you care

Wasn't Boots offering tests for something like £150 at one point :omgno:.

I don't necessarily mind when people aren't wearing masks and just going about their business - what does irk me is when people are "pointedly" not wearing them and scoffing/smirking/shaking their head at people round the supermarket like they're in on some great secret. Y'know - the "Trump people" spillover from America. I haven't seen MANY doing that to be fair, probably 5 or 6 incidents in total but TWO of those times were entire families... hubby and wife arguing and shouting at their grubby kids. And then the husband got all huffy at the checkout and stormed out the shop - leaving the wife with three wild children and all the shopping. :hehe:

But yeah the chin straps... I was in the chippy last week and an entire clan of 8 - 10 teenage boys strolled in, ALL wearing masks on either their chins or foreheads :facepalm:

[bots]

this testing to make sure you don't have the virus is a recipe for disaster. If tested every 3 or 4 days, there still remains the possibility for that for 3 days you could be happily passing on the virus to a crowded room while still testing negative. I would rather folk were just honest and say they can't be arsed with the restrictions, because thats what the real meaning is

I also just have to add that 1 month after Christmas/New year is shaping up to be a nightmare from relaxations in social distancing

[AnnieK]

It will be a money making thing surely? People will have to pay for the freedom passes and tests.

[Cherie]

this testing to make sure you don't have the virus is a recipe for disaster. If tested every 3 or 4 days, there still remains the possibility for that for 3 days you could be happily passing on the virus to a crowded room while still testing negative. I would rather folk were just honest and say they can't be arsed with the restrictions, because thats what the real meaning is

It’s pie in the sky I think logistically and administratively it would be difficult to carry out, they can’t test NHS staff once a week never mind the gen pop twice a week :laugh:

[arista]

"a crowded room while still testing negative."


Those days have gone.
we are now in long lines with gaps,

[AnnieK]

It'll be a long time before most people are comfortable in crowds again. I love my own space so social distancing hasn't been too hard for me, miss going to gigs though but can't see them allowing 20,000 people in an arena again for a long time

[Kizzy]

I'm going the throw my two penneth in here and play devil's advocate a little.

Logically, statistically and scientifically we know now that Covid19 is a virus that is particularly dangerous to the elderly and vulnerable. However, there have been cases of seemingly healthy younger people who have succumbed to it. Each loss of life leaves a massive hole in a families lives. So that impact should never be overlooked.

However, I honestly don't think that is what is happening here. I think people are approaching the conversation from two different angles, one from a purely scientific and one from an emotive one.

To put it another way. I lost my mum in 2014 from cancer. 4 weeks from diagnosis to death. Now logically, I know that was unlucky and most cancers can be treated to give a longer life and a lot can be cured. Doesn't stop me from going into a tailspin ever time cancer is mentioned. I have families members who have recovered from cancer after my mum passed but I cannot get passed her death to rationalise it properly. To me cancer = death.

I think personal experience goes a long way in your thought processes and actions regarding circumstances you find yourself in. Joey and BOTs have lost people close to them and so have a view of the virus that is completely different to TS and LT who haven't had their personal lives affected in the same way (and TS has another viewpoint due to his wife working throughout in the NHS so has a medical view also).

Joey and BOTs, I am very sorry for your losses. :love:

Thank you for bringing up a subject that must have been very painful Annie, ordinarily I would agree with that had either of the two perspectives come from yourself or many others.
However, yes there were emotional responses that does not mean that with having an emotional response after being personally affected by the virus you are unable to rationalise and understand any logical or statistical evidence.

It would also mean that if bots and Joey are exhibiting emotive behaviour then LT's comment was rooted in science, as the articles I posted show it isn't. .. even with the input from someone with by proxy knowledge, had that been given for the reason for that stance that would have been understandable, it wasn't ... it was a reliance on skewed stats that persobally I took exception to, as well as having my own considered researched opinion based on scientific evidence rubbished.

That compounded by the fact that never have I ever once wanted or felt obliged to compare a thing LT has posted as anything resembling logic. Statistically it just would not make sense to.

[Kizzy]

Again Bots, I do have sympathy for everyone's losses, and my response to these posts would be completely different if they were in General Chat or if I was talking to someone directly, but this is the SD section and my feeling (still, despite the various attempts to shame me for it) is that the discussion here should be more academic, more pragmatic, and based in scientific fact and not people's individual experiences when trying to wrestle out the facts relating to the pandemic. I'm not willing to ignore people poo-pooing medical science and statistics in favour of their own subjective experiences, whilst at the same time championing vaccines and lockdowns that are the product of medical science and statistics. It's the SD thread about Covid, it's not a support thread, and this thread and section is frankly not appropriate for people who are struggling with related recent personal loss. Like I said before - I've experienced personal loss, plenty of it, and I'm well aware that I'm not always able to engage in level-headed discussions on the associated topics and I fully understand that people have lost loved ones to Covid and that the same applies. I'm not and haven't minimised Covid, nor its impact on people. And whilst I understand people's hurt and frustration coming out in conversations with others, I fundamentally don't think it's something that should go unmentioned or excused, and I don't think anyone should have to avoid discussing the facts and figures of a global pandemic for fear that it might upset people who have sadly suffered disproportionate loss.

I'm aware that this probably comes across as cold. But there are many sections on this forum, and if this one isn't the place to discuss the science of the virus without impacting people's emotions and getting backlash for that, I don't know where is.
For someone who doesn't do emotional responses this comes across as decidedly whingey.

What you are neglecting to see is the possibility that some may be able to exhibit both the emotional and logical response that gives 'legs' and balance to a debate,
I appreciate you can't.

Making vague reference to unseen 'stats' is not academic or pragmatic.. nor is ignoring actual evidence provided for you in a vain attempt to maintain the illusion that your opinion has any basis in science.

[user104658]

For someone who doesn't do emotional responses this comes across as decidedly whingey.

It comes across as being bored of being singled out for passive aggressive ad-hominems by the same member (you) repeatedly across almost every thread. Maybe you're right and it is whingey, as I should quite clearly just ignore it completely, given that the moderators apparently either don't notice or don't care. It all falls under the same banner really - I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to come here for free and open discussion without being either angrily deemed insensitive for not accepting people's individual experiences over broader established information, or sniped at by people who hold grudges.

What you are neglecting to see is the possibility that some may be able to exhibit both the emotional and logical response that gives 'legs' and balance to a debate

I'm perfectly open to that but that's not what I've seen, I've seen people being snappy because they're understandably upset. It's not particularly nice to call that out for what it is so I also understand why some people wouldn't do it - but I happen to think that being a prophet of doom based on anecdotal information that's contrary to the bulk of available scientific information is actively harmful to anyone reading it so I choose to call it out. You might disagree with that but again I have absolutely no clue why that makes you think you're justified in the constant passive-aggressive nastiness.

I appreciate you can't.


:idc:

[Kizzy]

It comes across as being bored of being singled out for passive aggressive ad-hominems by the same member (you) repeatedly across almost every thread. Maybe you're right and it is whingey, as I should quite clearly just ignore it completely, given that the moderators apparently either don't notice or don't care. It all falls under the same banner really - I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to come here for free and open discussion without being either angrily deemed insensitive for not accepting people's individual experiences over broader established information, or sniped at by people who hold grudges.



I'm perfectly open to that but that's not what I've seen, I've seen people being snappy because they're understandably upset. It's not particularly nice to call that out for what it is so I also understand why some people wouldn't do it - but I happen to think that being a prophet of doom based on anecdotal information that's contrary to the bulk of available scientific information is actively harmful to anyone reading it so I choose to call it out. You might disagree with that but again I have absolutely no clue why that makes you think you're justified in the constant passive-aggressive nastiness.



:idc:

TS .. I challenged your point in a debate, it's not personal or passive aggressive.
My theory is based on 'anecdotal' information from those academic medical articles?

And yours from... stats. (that's all we know)

This virus is new, what is known about it is constantly evolving, therefore you choosing to call out what you feel is irrelevant is not helpful and is actively damaging to any debate on this topic imo.

[arista]

1330484262919921664

[arista]

1330463761908588548

[user104658]

TS .. I challenged your point in a debate, it's not personal or passive aggressive.

My theory is based on 'anecdotal' information from those academic medical articles?



And yours from... stats. (that's all we know)



This virus is new, what is known about it is constantly evolving, therefore you choosing to call out what you feel is irrelevant is not helpful and is actively damaging to any debate on this topic imo.

If I'm going to have to be blunt I'm going to have to be blunt I guess; I don't want to actively engage with your posts because when I talk about the passive aggressive snipes we both know fine well I'm not talking about just this thread, or just recently, or frankly even just me. I don't have any interest in anything you have to say, there is literally NO point in trying to engage you in debate over any links you post because it'll just be more of the same ad-hominem nonsense in response if I critique them, and a waste of time. I cannot fathom why I'm even engaging in this, again, having said multiple times in the past that I have no interest in it. I don't want to read your posts, I don't want to click your links, and I have zero interest in your jibes. The only thing that annoys me, is that I find them annoying at all and respond. I'm sure you'll enjoy that and that really says it all.

If I ABSOLUTELY MUST - one of your links was vague information that's been known for months and has no implications on the wider data. The other (long Covid) specifically talks about potential evidence minor ongoing damage of unknown scope and longevity - it specifically stipulates minor within the first paragraph and talks about common minor post-viral ailments such as fatigue and headache - but it was posted as a counter to the idea that there's evidence of severe ongoing health complaints. I just can't be bothered. It's not that I can't come up with anything against your amazing articles - it's that you consistently (perhaps willingly?) misinterpret what's been said and post things that are irrelevant in response, peppered with ad-hominem. It's a waste of time and no one should feel beholden to engage with it, but I'm not the only one you consistently draw into this so I guess I feel a little better for that. Like I said I just feel annoyed for even bothering to be annoyed.

I suppose when it comes down to it I should just take my own advice and keep a level head; I don't enjoy discussing things with you, I get nothing out of "debates" with you, they're not helpful and they're irritating. So I should just... Not.

[Beso]

Mods.

Can we comment on the debate within the debate?

[Ammi]

Christmas in lockdown preferred by UK public over new restrictions in January...

Most of the public would rather have a locked-down Christmas than have a new lockdown imposed in January, a new poll suggests.

With the government considering the extent to which restrictions should be lifted to limit the impact on Christmas family gatherings, the latest Opinium poll for the Observer found that the public opted for a locked-down Christmas over new January restrictions by a margin of 54% to 33%.

This split is almost identical across all party groups and demographics, with older voters in particular preferring to lock down over Christmas rather than in January.



https://uk.yahoo.com/news/christmas-lockdown-preferred-uk-public-203941047.html

[bots]

i would say the tory bump up was more due to Dom and his side kick leaving

But really, everything is so volatile at the moment and the next election is so far off that it really doesnt matter :laugh:

[arista]

i would say the tory bump up was more due to Dom and his side kick leaving

But really, everything is so volatile at the moment and the next election is so far off that it really doesnt matter :laugh:


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/22/09/35964952-0-image-m-5_1606036549596.jpg

[user104658]

i would say the tory bump up was more due to Dom and his side kick leaving

But really, everything is so volatile at the moment and the next election is so far off that it really doesnt matter :laugh:

I agree with that, I have no idea why anyone bothers watching the polls 1 year into a 5 year term... god knows what will be going on in 2024.

[Kizzy]

If I'm going to have to be blunt I'm going to have to be blunt I guess; I don't want to actively engage with your posts because when I talk about the passive aggressive snipes we both know fine well I'm not talking about just this thread, or just recently, or frankly even just me. I don't have any interest in anything you have to say, there is literally NO point in trying to engage you in debate over any links you post because it'll just be more of the same ad-hominem nonsense in response if I critique them, and a waste of time. I cannot fathom why I'm even engaging in this, again, having said multiple times in the past that I have no interest in it. I don't want to read your posts, I don't want to click your links, and I have zero interest in your jibes. The only thing that annoys me, is that I find them annoying at all and respond. I'm sure you'll enjoy that and that really says it all.

If I ABSOLUTELY MUST - one of your links was vague information that's been known for months and has no implications on the wider data. The other (long Covid) specifically talks about potential evidence minor ongoing damage of unknown scope and longevity - it specifically stipulates minor within the first paragraph and talks about common minor post-viral ailments such as fatigue and headache - but it was posted as a counter to the idea that there's evidence of severe ongoing health complaints. I just can't be bothered. It's not that I can't come up with anything against your amazing articles - it's that you consistently (perhaps willingly?) misinterpret what's been said and post things that are irrelevant in response, peppered with ad-hominem. It's a waste of time and no one should feel beholden to engage with it, but I'm not the only one you consistently draw into this so I guess I feel a little better for that. Like I said I just feel annoyed for even bothering to be annoyed.

I suppose when it comes down to it I should just take my own advice and keep a level head; I don't enjoy discussing things with you, I get nothing out of "debates" with you, they're not helpful and they're irritating. So I should just... Not.

I just post my views like everyone else, it's rather laughable that you are attempting to discredit an academic article, but I'll put that aside for now as you appear quite sensitive at the moment.

I've done nothing to warrant your attack in this thread other than disagree with you and you've taken exception to that clearly. I think we should leave it there.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EncZs9LXcAUNzoX?format=jpg&name=small

[Alf]

Can't be arsed to read through this thread. But now I'm here, how's everybody coping? Crazy times we're living in.

Is everybody still well?

From my point of view, I still know of nobody in my life who has had the virus, and I live in an apparent hot spot area.

I'm not denying that the virus exists/existed, I just don't think people are being honest with us.and the measures being taken are destroying people lives.

[Cherie]

Christmas in lockdown preferred by UK public over new restrictions in January...

Most of the public would rather have a locked-down Christmas than have a new lockdown imposed in January, a new poll suggests.

With the government considering the extent to which restrictions should be lifted to limit the impact on Christmas family gatherings, the latest Opinium poll for the Observer found that the public opted for a locked-down Christmas over new January restrictions by a margin of 54% to 33%.

This split is almost identical across all party groups and demographics, with older voters in particular preferring to lock down over Christmas rather than in January.



https://uk.yahoo.com/news/christmas-lockdown-preferred-uk-public-203941047.html

Every single person to a phone in that I listened to last week said they did not want 5 days of relaxation over Christmas, it is utter madness ..we have come this far and to throw it all away again because people want to stuff their faces in front of other family members is just obsene, if you have an elderly relative who is on their own that should really be the only relaxation of rules, drop the dinner off if its a couple and they are unable to cook, its not rocket science and pick up the phone or show them how to zoom

[arista]

Today 398 have Died

55,024 Total deaths

The Hospital Numbers are Yesterdays.

18,662 tested today with Covid-19


https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/22/17/35973782-0-image-m-2_1606065402865.jpg


Tomorrow in Parliament
Johnson (on a screen)
will give details

[bots]

The UK's four nations have backed plans to allow some household mixing "for a small number of days" over Christmas.

It comes as Boris Johnson is due to announce on Monday what Covid restrictions may be in place over the festive period.

The PM will also outline plans for a tougher three-tiered system for England - to be introduced at the end of the current lockdown on 2 December.

The 10pm closing time for pubs and restaurants could also be relaxed.

Three households could be allowed to meet up "over a number of days, maybe five days", according to the BBC's deputy political editor Vicki Young.

The Cabinet Office said ministers from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland had endorsed a "shared objective of facilitating some limited additional household bubbling for a small number of days".

But they have emphasised that the public will be advised to "remain cautious", and that "wherever possible people should avoid travelling and minimise social contact".

Discussions are ongoing - including about travel arrangements - but it is hoped agreement on the joint approach can be reached this week.

In respect of Northern Ireland, ministers have also "recognised that people will want to see family and friends across the island of Ireland, and this is the subject of discussions with the Irish government", the Cabinet Office said.

More areas are set to be placed into the higher tiers in England, with ministers to identify the which areas will be in which tier on Thursday.

Some local measures will be the same as those in the previous three-tier system, which was in place in England until the current lockdown began.

But some tiers will be strengthened, according to Downing Street.

Mr Johnson will detail the strengthened tiered system in a statement to the House of Commons on Monday but full details of Christmas plans are not expected until after the first ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have consulted their own cabinets.

There have been calls by a cross-party group of MPs and peers for the PM to guarantee that church services will go ahead this Christmas, as current lockdown restrictions forbid most religious services.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55036797

[Alf]

Today 398 have Died

55,024 Total deaths

The Hospital Numbers are Yesterdays.

18,662 tested today with Covid-19


https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/How many people died on the same date over the past 10 years. Can you find that data for me, Arista?

We know that on the same date in 1963 that President Kennedy died. Rip Mr President. Had this pandemic been happening in 1963, would the President have been amongst the Covid statistics?

[Cherie]

The UK's four nations have backed plans to allow some household mixing "for a small number of days" over Christmas.

It comes as Boris Johnson is due to announce on Monday what Covid restrictions may be in place over the festive period.

The PM will also outline plans for a tougher three-tiered system for England - to be introduced at the end of the current lockdown on 2 December.

The 10pm closing time for pubs and restaurants could also be relaxed.

Three households could be allowed to meet up "over a number of days, maybe five days", according to the BBC's deputy political editor Vicki Young.

The Cabinet Office said ministers from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland had endorsed a "shared objective of facilitating some limited additional household bubbling for a small number of days".

But they have emphasised that the public will be advised to "remain cautious", and that "wherever possible people should avoid travelling and minimise social contact".

Discussions are ongoing - including about travel arrangements - but it is hoped agreement on the joint approach can be reached this week.

In respect of Northern Ireland, ministers have also "recognised that people will want to see family and friends across the island of Ireland, and this is the subject of discussions with the Irish government", the Cabinet Office said.

More areas are set to be placed into the higher tiers in England, with ministers to identify the which areas will be in which tier on Thursday.

Some local measures will be the same as those in the previous three-tier system, which was in place in England until the current lockdown began.

But some tiers will be strengthened, according to Downing Street.

Mr Johnson will detail the strengthened tiered system in a statement to the House of Commons on Monday but full details of Christmas plans are not expected until after the first ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have consulted their own cabinets.

There have been calls by a cross-party group of MPs and peers for the PM to guarantee that church services will go ahead this Christmas, as current lockdown restrictions forbid most religious services.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55036797

Agreement across the devolved nations, it must be a Christmas miracle

[bots]

what annoys me is that they have been closing everything, even establishments that have done everything they can to be covid secure. They shut all non essential shops, tell us we cant travel etc all to reduce the pressure on the NHS ... then that all goes out the window for a week at christmas, cause people couldnt possibly miss out on that. No restrictions will be taken seriously after that

[Alf]

what annoys me is that they have been closing everything, even establishments that have done everything they can to be covid secure. They shut all non essential shops, tell us we cant travel etc all to reduce the pressure on the NHS ... then that all goes out the window for a week at christmas, cause people couldnt possibly miss out on that. No restrictions will be taken seriously after thatYou can't have people around for Christmas, but two groups of rugby players can wrestle each other on the pitch, 22 football players can still compete on the same pitch, 12 celebrities can still earn huge amounts of money for staying in a castle together.

Something ain't right.

[Cherie]

You can't have people around for Christmas, but two groups of rugby players can wrestle each other on the pitch, 22 football players can still compete on the same pitch, 12 celebrities can still earn huge amounts of money for staying in a castle together.

Something ain't right.

They are tested within an inch of their lives

[Alf]

They are tested within an inch of their livesBut isn't the testing flawed? Somebody, I think it was Elon Musk, but don't quote me on that, took four of the same tests and two came out positive and two came out negative.

[Cherie]

what annoys me is that they have been closing everything, even establishments that have done everything they can to be covid secure. They shut all non essential shops, tell us we cant travel etc all to reduce the pressure on the NHS ... then that all goes out the window for a week at christmas, cause people couldnt possibly miss out on that. No restrictions will be taken seriously after that

yep agree, surely livelihoods should be put before meeting at Christmas, for alot of people it will be a blessed relief that they have an excuse not to invite the inlaws round :laugh:

[Cherie]

But isn't the testing flawed? Somebody, I think it was Elon Musk, but don't quote me on that, took four of the same tests and two came out positive and two came out negative.

A relative of someone i know left a care home to visit the dentist and tested positive on return, and negative two days later so I don't disagree

that said how do you explain 3 members of the same family dying in Wales recently

[Zizu]

So what about New Year’s Eve and New Year’s Day ??


Presumably there’s gonna be loads of mixing together then as well ?

So it will basically go crazy from Dec 22nd to the 2nd Jan ...TWELVE DAYS of ChristmasCovid ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[bots]

some of the fast tests are less than reliable, the proper lab tests are very accurate. The fast test used in the whitehouse has a 70% accuracy rate, which means it can miss 30% of positive cases.

[smudgie]

I am for relaxing rules a little over Xmas, but not forgetting most of the lockdown rules.
Hubby and I will be having 3 extra for xmas, they will be zapped when they come in, handed the sanitiser in case they have germs on their hands.
Daughter and her partner will isolate a good week beforehand and son will only take dog out for walks.
If people are sensible it could go well.
No doubt there will be those that go over the top, but then they would anyway.

[joeysteele]

All my relatives live in other cities.
So they can relax what they will.
No one will be heading to me, my Mum and cousin who lives in the same house as myself.

I think it would be a massive error to open up and relax too much over Christmas myself.

So not a single chance of risk will I be taking.

[MTVN]

I actually always love January because I don't get time off over Christmas so that's normally the time I relax a bit. Always like the pubs being dead quiet as well with everyone else on a health kick :hee: so I personally don't want to lose a month for 5 days that I'm not that fussed about although I do get that it's important to a lot of people

[Kizzy]

Let's not kid ourselves this is some act of goodwill by ebeneezer Johnson. ..this 'give your nana Covid for Christmas' pause in the lockdown is simply to appease business

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/vW1OZb52cH8YyIri84zwBQ/https/media.fyre.co/69sIIUIdT2K5nBhY4wga_Times.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/0HU9uAEczf-D0EPLur05zQ/https/media.fyre.co/kbWnJOtrSiuOMgeW5lUN_Mail.JPG

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/22/09/35964952-0-image-m-5_1606036549596.jpg


https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/R4tR_OLNL_KushVmmXlYzA/https/media.fyre.co/rGdSWvGTS9Kf26ynbqQa_Guardian.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/PAInKlMzeDnu5t0u2mOf0A/https/media.fyre.co/nlGhbCQPQ2Gbr80tH7NT_Express.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/eNuM7oG6DnEzMhQBS9NAMg/https/media.fyre.co/LJ91CNhhSWq25GA2s5GA_Mirror.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/9J_gWrb-1qF4ZTCUKgCIUw/https/media.fyre.co/wW47qr94QwenzGD0HmU6_Metro.JPG

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/QeaxLmnU2m_y3BvNdcA4Gw/https/media.fyre.co/UvVf9XCrRQuB8MsuF3sm_FT.JPG

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/18150/production/_115604689_the-i-nc.png

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/E8F8/production/_115604695_tele-nc.png

[bots]

I think a sizeable proportion of the population had already decided they were going to ignore the no mixing rule at christmas anyway. That's fine, its their risk to take, but it will have massive consequences and pile the pressure on to the NHS. Personally, i already canned travelling at christmas. I'm happy to wait until the summer to meet up and celebrate or when people have been vaccinated

[LaLaLand]

Let's not kid ourselves this is some act of goodwill by ebeneezer Johnson. ..this 'give your nana Covid for Christmas' pause in the lockdown is simply to appease business

Exactly my thoughts Kizzy.

Mind you, whichever way Boris went with this he'd have stick for it. Nobody wants to be "the one who cancelled Christmas".

[Kizzy]

If we'd have locked down as soon as the 2nd wave started to hit instead of undermining the proactive stance Wales took who knows we would even have to have a pause. Wasn't it found that locking down only 2 week earlier in sprint would've saved 1000s of lives?

[LaLaLand]

If we'd have locked down as soon as the 2nd wave started to hit instead of undermining the proactive stance Wales took who knows we would even have to have a pause. Wasn't it found that locking down only 2 week earlier in sprint would've saved 1000s of lives?

Yes it was I believe.

I'm in Wales and the fortnight strict lockdown we had a few weeks back seems to already be showing significant results, cases dropping on a national level. Drakeford (our First Minister) has his flaws but I've been fully backing him through this pandemic. He's been firm but very fair. Sensible.

[MTVN]

Let's not kid ourselves this is some act of goodwill by ebeneezer Johnson. ..this 'give your nana Covid for Christmas' pause in the lockdown is simply to appease business

This is all about letting households mixing privately, it doesn't help business

If anything most businesses would rather it didn't happen and not face a month of lockdown in January

[bots]

The vast majority of businesses go down to a skeleton staff between Christmas and New year, its a public holiday/weekend for several of the days, so they would hardly be clambering to open. Essential shops remain unaffected, so what business is actually benefiting from household sharing? Pubs and restaurants continue to have covid secure environments

[joeysteele]

Obviously it has to be waited on to hear what the government is deciding re Christmas but also New Year period too.

I myself would be more inclined to stricter controls over Christmas anyway.
Not of choice as that means I cannot see family and friends, who I haven't all year now.

Just however to remove personal risk to myself and the 2 people who are resident in my home with me at this time.

For near 9 months now, we have been kept safe by how we've gone about things.

It's also not just about Christmas, I am concerned too at what they do after 2nd December.
There'll be those who have complied with this new lockdown, thinking come 2nd December, they'll be able to charge out and do all their Christmas planning and shopping.
If all non essential shops are opened up then too.

That 3 week period TO Christmas will also be a possible hotspot to creating more difficulties come January.
Even without a further relaxation of more, particularly in households, during the Christmas period.

Between the 2nd December to Christmas, there may be many who won't even feel ill, have symptoms or even know they're carrying this virus.
Meaning it could easily be passed on to those most likely to lose their lives or be much more seriously ill from it.

It's why, it doesn't matter to me what the government decides to do as to Christmas.
This year Christmas is myself, my Mum and a Cousin on our own to ensure not the slightest risk.

[bots]

The Astra Zenica vaccine is giving 90% immunity if the correct dosage is given, so thats promising too

[Ammi]

Self-isolation to be scrapped for Covid case contacts, Government reveals...

Self-isolation will no longer be required for contacts of positive Covid cases under plans announced by the Government on Monday.

Instead, contacts of those who test positive will be asked to undergo daily tests for seven days, and allowed to go about their business in the meantime.

Ministers will say that the current system – which was criticised by the Government’s own advisers as “massively ineffective and hated” – will be dismantled nationwide in January, if pilot schemes succeed.

As well as ending the self-isolation system, it could form part of an exit strategy from tiered restrictions. Poor adherence to the current system of isolation – requiring people to stay home for 14 days – is one of the key drivers of infection rates, which has pushed areas into higher tiers. Officials hope that people will be more likely to comply with quick tests that free them from restrictions, than to adhere to two-week quarantines.

...full article...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/self-isolation-scrapped-covid-case-212950613.html

[bots]

it would be much easier for people to walk around with an "unclean" sign for a week, and we could pelt them with old fruit thus providing much needed entertainment

[user104658]

Daily tests for 7 days! :joker:

http://replygif.net/i/938.gif

People can't even get ONE test when they have symptoms, and often have to wait several days for a result.

I do love a bit of satire.

[arista]

Self-isolation to be scrapped for Covid case contacts, Government reveals...

Self-isolation will no longer be required for contacts of positive Covid cases under plans announced by the Government on Monday.

Instead, contacts of those who test positive will be asked to undergo daily tests for seven days, and allowed to go about their business in the meantime.

Ministers will say that the current system – which was criticised by the Government’s own advisers as “massively ineffective and hated” – will be dismantled nationwide in January, if pilot schemes succeed.

As well as ending the self-isolation system, it could form part of an exit strategy from tiered restrictions. Poor adherence to the current system of isolation – requiring people to stay home for 14 days – is one of the key drivers of infection rates, which has pushed areas into higher tiers. Officials hope that people will be more likely to comply with quick tests that free them from restrictions, than to adhere to two-week quarantines.

...full article...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/self-isolation-scrapped-covid-case-212950613.html


It is not scrapped
Do you trust Hancock to get testing that good?

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/23/11/35999902-0-image-m-14_1606130905355.jpg

[AnnieK]

Lol....a test a day for 7 days when most tests take 48 hours to come back? How will that work? Although the number of times my son has been a close contact and had to self isolate, I hope it does work.

[Crimson Dynamo]

bh3u0W1ajks

[user104658]

Lol....a test a day for 7 days when most tests take 48 hours to come back? How will that work? Although the number of times my son has been a close contact and had to self isolate, I hope it does work.

"Sorry kiddo... it's a cotton bud up the nose every day for the next six months!" :laugh:

[Cherie]

bh3u0W1ajks

so easy for him to say, if he worked in the NHS he might thing differently

or
if he was awaiting a cancer test which has been delayed he might think differently

if it doesnt affect us of course covid restrictions are garbage!

although as an aside I do think lockdowns are garbarge!

[arista]

Peter Hitchens no longer invited
onto Question Time.


He does not like Change.

[Crimson Dynamo]

so easy for him to say, if he worked in the NHS he might thing differently

or
if he was awaiting a cancer test which has been delayed he might think differently

if it doesnt affect us of course covid restrictions are garbage!

although as an aside I do think lockdowns are garbarge!

Currently, only 13 per cent of NHS beds are occupied by patients with Covid-19.

[Nicky91]

netherlands todays numbers

5,214 new cases (182 less than yesterday)

54 new deaths (33 more than yesterday)

151 new hospitalisations (29 less than yesterday) 1,968 in total in hospital now

23 new ICU patients (3 less than yesterday) 536 in total now on ICU

[Lewismacfarlane]

I reckon Scotland will lift household restrictions for Christmas

[Denver]

So they have 3 vaccines that are 90%+ effective

[Nicky91]

So they have 3 vaccines that are 90%+ effective

Oxford vaccine between 60% and 90% effective

[bots]

Oxford vaccine between 60% and 90% effective

the correct dosage gives 90%

[arista]

Prime Minister Johnson Live 3:30PM Parliament

Then Live 7PM New Conference. BBC1HD, SkyNewsHD,LBC

He will be on Screen for both.

7PM joining him will be Prof. Chris Whitty
and Director of the Oxford Vaccine Group Andrew Pollard.

[Denver]

the correct dosage gives 90%

Its also cheaper and easier to store which is a big plus

[arista]

Prime Minister is Live
in Parliament now

All media

[arista]

3mins break
as the PM appears to have pushed his Mute button.



Now its the Health Secretary
taking over - he is in the house.

[Beso]

3mins break
as the PM appears to have pushed his Mute button.



Now its the Health Secretary
taking over - he is in the house.

:joker:

[arista]

The PM is coming back on his screen

[arista]

The UK Oxford Vaccine costs £2 a dose.

Ref: Ch5HDnews

[Zizu]

The UK Oxford Vaccine costs £2 a dose.

Ref: Ch5HDnews



Wow ... so the £21 million pocketed by that shister middleman to supply PPE would have bought 10.5 million vaccines

:(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

The Prime Minister has a Long Cough.


He is Live only on the Parliament Channel, now.

[Cherie]

I reckon Scotland will lift household restrictions for Christmas

Any relaxation will be the agreed with all 4 nations

[arista]

Sadly the Hospital Data is from the 19th?


206 Died Today

15,540 Tested today with Covid-19

55,230 Total UK deaths.


https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[arista]

9PM Tonight Ch4HD
Is Covid Racist?


A&E Dr.Ronx
presents this Docu.

[Zizu]

So apparently if you’ve very recently tested positive for Covid19 and recovered but then your partner / member of household then tests positive.. you don’t have to self isolate !!?!?!

I presumed you’d still be able to transmit /transfer the germs to others ( from home) if only by having the virus particles on your hands/possessions/clothes !??

If not why am I disinfecting my hands 50 times a day ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Beso]

What's this new thing all about, cloning monkey flu viruses with corona spikes to cure corona..


Gimme a break.!!!

[bots]

Nicola Sturgeon says progress is being made in talks on easing Covid rules at Christmas - but does not expect a similar relaxation at Hogmanay.

Scotland's first minister said a deal on a UK-wide approach to Christmas would be announced later in the week.

She said the plans would need to be "sensible and careful" to prevent a fresh wave of new cases in January.

And she added: "I do not expect that we will be announcing any particular relaxation over the new year period."

Responding to a question at her daily briefing, Ms Surgeon said: "We can't do everything. The Christmas thing is hard enough.

"Why Christmas and not new year? Well, maybe Christmas is a more important time for the kids.

"I think for most of us, even if we value new year, Christmas is still the time when families are more likely to not have someone on their own. So we can't do everything right now."

[Beso]

I'm flying up for xmas..new year means eff all these days.
Saying that though I'm sure we will all be boosting chinas economy on a massive scale when the bells ring.

[arista]

Prime Minister is Live


Also Prof. Chris Whitty and Andrew Pollard (Oxford Vaccine)


SkyNewsHD
BBC1HD
LBC
Radio 5
Times Radio DAB.

[Beso]

My xmas corona tip.


You and your family make rules for December...then make a diary of your movements. An honest one, cause vaccine only means vaccine when you get one..it dont cure corona, so granny can still be hurt..

So think about your movements in December and then as a family judge each other.

[arista]

The Prime Minister Ended at 7:45PM

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/23/19/36017436-0-image-m-41_1606160595767.jpg

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/23/17/36014170-0-image-m-37_1606154348787.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Is that based in racial mix?

[bots]

my area is currently 122 cases per 100,000, the average in England is 187

you can check your area at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

[Zizu]

my area is currently 122 cases per 100,000, the average in England is 187

you can check your area at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274



Wow 344 for us ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[joeysteele]

The vaccines sound to be very positive.

A massive thank you to all who've worked so hard to find and develop a vaccine.

Hopefully people will think it's worth being as careful and take no risks rather than think, oh they've a vaccine coming now, we'll be fine.
I fear a good number will think the latter.

[Oliver_W]

9PM Tonight Ch4HD
Is Covid Racist?


A&E Dr.Ronx
presents this Docu.

I started watching it but I found her too annoying. I skimmed the hashtag on twitter and it seems it's not due to a non-sentient disease being "racist", but due to the obvious - BAME people work in more frontline positions, are less likely to self-distance due to living conditions.

She probably knew that already but wanted to be on TV :dance:

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/J0d1z9vbx8VpaVSeTEgXFA/https/media.fyre.co/rJALGN3ARpi32MOw6QTW_dailyexpress.jpg

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/XjY5K2zDpAeFymSbD9o9_w/https/media.fyre.co/0efUIbaQSKqW1HrAFrZ1_theindependent.jpg

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/uLP3r7EH6iSqPiXVt7n7Gg/https/media.fyre.co/vQU9ipRBTkySH1f0V7ea_thetimes.jpg

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/YNwiFMUtdjBt1U__huu1VQ/https/media.fyre.co/A3KA6HmcQrONZ45rIq3A_dailymirror.jpg

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/xqotbRIf4rf_0Yb6kn1ibg/https/media.fyre.co/sA9TE4oyTWxWUewNM6Ww_telegraph.jpg

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/vrQUOJ_OexMznQMHm_1DtQ/https/media.fyre.co/ciUDazZ8QtGdPfsfTeOV_Metro.jpg

[Kizzy]

This is all about letting households mixing privately, it doesn't help business

If anything most businesses would rather it didn't happen and not face a month of lockdown in January

Lock down is ending on Dec 2nd that's so people flock to the shops.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnjDPE2XMAAy6U1?format=jpg&name=medium

[arista]

Lock down is ending on Dec 2nd that's so people flock to the shops.


Yes lets hope
folks keep a distance

[arista]

[COVID-19: Lockdown to end next week allowing shops,
gyms and salons to reopen - and fans back
in some stadiums
The national shutdown will be replaced by
a new "tougher" version of the tiered system
of measures that preceded it, the PM says.]


https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-lockdown-to-end-next-week-allowing-shops-gyms-and-salons-to-reopen-and-fans-back-in-some-stadiums-12140330

[arista]

Only the New Farage Reform Party
is demanding Student fee's to be cut.


You would think this would be the Labour Party doing this?


A Live Debate
just on Times Radio DAB

[Nicky91]

Germany might have its first vaccinations next month, they are going for Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine


my country Netherlands has chosen Oxford vaccine (cheapest of the 3 is the reason :laugh:)

[arista]

Germany might have its first vaccinations next month, they are going for Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine


my country Netherlands has chosen Oxford vaccine (cheapest of the 3 is the reason :laugh:)


£2 a Dose
is good

[Cherie]

Germany might have its first vaccinations next month, they are going for Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine


my country Netherlands has chosen Oxford vaccine (cheapest of the 3 is the reason :laugh:)

apart from the 28.00 difference in price, investment in the type of freezer required would be needed so makes sense

[user104658]

apart from the 28.00 difference in price, investment in the type of freezer required would be needed so makes sense

Honestly my main concern there is that if it needs unconventional handling, it is inevitably going to be mishandled sometimes which will result in an overall lower %age of effectiveness. The quoted effectiveness is, presumably, when all doses are handled correctly.

[bots]

the astra zeneca vaccine is also much less traumatic to the person receiving it than the others, it works on young and old and its based on proven technology.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/24/12/36045084-0-image-m-12_1606221316763.jpg

[arista]

Passengers now have a choice on return to UK Airports
costing £65 - £120.
For a Covid-19 test.


O'Leary of RyanAir
he wants PreDepature Covid-19 test



Ref: ITV1HDnews

[arista]

For Slim & others


1330081681697615872



There is special tonight on
SkyArtsHD (now on Freeview)
9PM -11PM

1328784009871171585

[Cherie]

Passengers now have a choice on return to UK Airports
costing £65 - £120.
For a Covid-19 test.


O'Leary of RyanAir
he wants PreDepature Covid-19 test



Ref: ITV1HDnews

Its being trialled with pre testing in the states, at Heathrow anyway

[arista]

608 have Died today

55,838 Total UK deaths

11,299 Tested today with Covid-19



Patients in hospital
16,158

Patients on ventilation
1,487


https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[bots]

the numbers testing positive are coming down nicely, just a pity it will all go crazy again the week after christmas

[AnnieK]

the numbers testing positive are coming down nicely, just a pity it will all go crazy again the week after christmas

I was just saying the same thing. Another week.or so of lockdown and I reckon Gtr Mcr would have been Tier 2 but once everyone flocks to the Trafford Centre next week, the cases will rocket again I fear.

[Cherie]

I think alot of places expecting to be in Tier 2 will be in Tier 3 for Christmas :fc:

[Ammi]

COVID-19: UK records another 608 coronavirus deaths - the highest daily total since May...




The UK has recorded another 11,299 coronavirus cases and 608 related deaths in the past 24 hours - the highest daily total for deaths since 12 May.

The number of cases are down on the 15,450 recorded on Monday but the number of deaths are up on 206 recorded on Monday.

The latest statistics come on the day it was also revealed that the number of deaths in England and Wales up to 13 November, was the highest weekly total since the end of May.

The total number of deaths of people within 28 days of testing positive for COVID-19, is now 55,838.

But separate figures published by the UK's statistics agencies for deaths where COVID-19 has been mentioned on the death certificate, together with additional data on deaths that have occurred in recent days, show there have now been more than 71,000 deaths involving COVID-19 in the UK.



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk-records-another-11-299-coronavirus-cases-and-608-deaths-12141060

[arista]

England, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland
all have agreed on the Christmas period.


Up to three households can meet indoors during
a five-day Christmas period of 23-27 December,
leaders of the four UK nations have agreed.

[Vanessa]

I think alot of places expecting to be in Tier 2 will be in Tier 3 for Christmas :fc:

I don't mind, I still have to go to work no matter what tier I'm.in.
And most of the shops will be open anyway.

[Zizu]

the numbers testing positive are coming down nicely, just a pity it will all go crazy again the week after christmas



... yeah they could go proper crazy as well with three households mixing .. they are saying for 5 days but we all know that it will be from 23rd December ( maybe earlier ) to the 2nd January..

Latest stats confirming that its the youngsters driving this virus forwards according to Sky News just a few moments ago .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[bots]

COVID-19: UK records another 608 coronavirus deaths - the highest daily total since May...




The UK has recorded another 11,299 coronavirus cases and 608 related deaths in the past 24 hours - the highest daily total for deaths since 12 May.

The number of cases are down on the 15,450 recorded on Monday but the number of deaths are up on 206 recorded on Monday.

The latest statistics come on the day it was also revealed that the number of deaths in England and Wales up to 13 November, was the highest weekly total since the end of May.

The total number of deaths of people within 28 days of testing positive for COVID-19, is now 55,838.

But separate figures published by the UK's statistics agencies for deaths where COVID-19 has been mentioned on the death certificate, together with additional data on deaths that have occurred in recent days, show there have now been more than 71,000 deaths involving COVID-19 in the UK.



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk-records-another-11-299-coronavirus-cases-and-608-deaths-12141060

there is always a lag of about 4 weeks between infections going down and that being reflected in the death figures, but i still cant grasp the stupidity of having a 4 week lockdown where businesses were forced to close for there then to be mixing allowed for 5 days. it's complete madness

[joeysteele]

It's NOT happening in my home.
The 3 of us who are in my home from March this year.
Will be the ONLY ones in it still, even over Christmas.

I think, although I hope not, this move will lead into another problem after the new year period.

Plus where all these extra households will be travelling to and from too to get to the other households.

I feel this is a bad decision from the 4 Nations of the UK.
Bad and probably dangerous too.

So no, NOT for me with the agreement of the 2 people in my home at present.
No throwing caution to the wind from any of us

[Zizu]

It's NOT happening in my home.
The 3 of us who are in my home from March this year.
Will be the ONLY ones in it still, even over Christmas.

I think, although I hope not, this move will lead into another problem after the new year period.

Plus where all these extra households will be travelling to and from too to get to the other households.

I feel this is a bad decision from the 4 Nations of the UK.
Bad and probably dangerous too.

So no, NOT for me with the agreement of the 2 people in my home at present.
No throwing caution to the wind from any of us



I love football but I’m thinking it’s also too soon to be allowing 4,000 fans into football grounds .. supposedly not allowed to shout , chant or sing !!

Yeah right ...

Plus many those fans will end up going in fast food places or pubs afterwards ..




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[joeysteele]

I love football but I’m thinking it’s also too soon to be allowing 4,000 fans into football grounds .. supposedly not allowed to shout , chant or sing !!

Yeah right ...

Plus many those fans will end up going in fast food places or pubs afterwards ..




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It really is too early to opening up sports events I agree.

A recipe for disaster.

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/2353/production/_115634090_star25nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/A369/production/_115633814_mirror25nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/7173/production/_115634092_thetimes251120pg1.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/0729/production/_115633810_metrop1nov25.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/F189/production/_115633816_dailymail25nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/E6A3/production/_115634095_guardianfront25nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/9883/production/_115634093_sun25nov.jpg

[Zizu]

Any medics around ??

I see many places testing temps for a quick indication of fever BUT they are testing SKIN temps ( forehead) which is considerably lower ( 3 degrees C / 5 degrees F !) than the normal recognised human temperature ( oral ) ..

I overheard someone after testing some guy’s forehead say “ 35C ... that’s great “ .

Now a skin temp of 35C equates to 95F which seems high for a SKIN temp given the ‘new’ normal body temp taken orally is apparently 97.4F !!!

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/2ea71ac745d3300caeae1915d8cd69af.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/5549/production/_115633812_telegraph25november.jpg

[Zizu]

Even our accepted ‘normal temps’ of 98.4F or 36.8C are apparently well out of date according to scientists at Harvard and Stanford Unis !!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/b424f3a79d153f5d5d47bc03cac7067d.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[bots]

the infra red head scan thermometers are notoriously inaccurate.

[user104658]

They do have to adjust for the type used but they're pretty accurate these days - you should adjust up by 1F (0.6C) - it's definitely not going to be as much as 3C. Yes average skin temperature is much lower but that's why you only use external thermometers on specific parts of the body. So a forehead temp reading 35 is likely to be around 35.6 - and definitely nowhere near 38+ - so it is good. A true reading of 35 wouldn't be great (for them) at all, you'd call that person an ambulance because while they definitely don't have a fever... They ARE teetering on the edge of hypothermia.

However, yes, it's true that internal thermometers (that you put in your mouth or bum'ole) are much more accurate than external. It's not feasible to quickly use those en masse though, for obvious reasons (mouth because of contagion risk, anal because... Well... It's impolite to go around shoving things in people's butts).

But yeah basically anything from 35 - 36.5 is totally fine for a forehead zap. Up to 37 is "OK" but anything over 37 with a forehead scan could easily be over 37.8 (fever) so I would say if you're getting let's say 37.2, then you want to repeat with an internal thermometer to make sure it isn't actually higher.

Tl;Dr with modern forehead thermometers, so long as they're not cheapo ones, 35 is fine or even a little low.

[Kizzy]

the infra red head scan thermometers are notoriously inaccurate.

We have one of these at work for visitors, the idiots initially attached it to the window in reception and was reading everyone at 32 :laugh:

[bots]

i have one of those stick in your ear thermometers that are very quick and seems to be very accurate. It also has an outer sleeve that you can ditch after every use

[Strictly Jake]

Listened to do they know its christmas this morning. Take away the fact they are singing about Africa and liken it to todays pandemic its a very chilling song. Pray for the other one thank god its them not you, Outside the bells of doom are ringing etc but its ok because its christmas....Have a listen with that in mind and its a very different song!
iBwkzix0aIE

[Zizu]

They do have to adjust for the type used but they're pretty accurate these days - you should adjust up by 1F (0.6C) - it's definitely not going to be as much as 3C. Yes average skin temperature is much lower but that's why you only use external thermometers on specific parts of the body. So a forehead temp reading 35 is likely to be around 35.6 - and definitely nowhere near 38+ - so it is good. A true reading of 35 wouldn't be great (for them) at all, you'd call that person an ambulance because while they definitely don't have a fever... They ARE teetering on the edge of hypothermia.

However, yes, it's true that internal thermometers (that you put in your mouth or bum'ole) are much more accurate than external. It's not feasible to quickly use those en masse though, for obvious reasons (mouth because of contagion risk, anal because... Well... It's impolite to go around shoving things in people's butts).

But yeah basically anything from 35 - 36.5 is totally fine for a forehead zap. Up to 37 is "OK" but anything over 37 with a forehead scan could easily be over 37.8 (fever) so I would say if you're getting let's say 37.2, then you want to repeat with an internal thermometer to make sure it isn't actually higher.

Tl;Dr with modern forehead thermometers, so long as they're not cheapo ones, 35 is fine or even a little low.



http://manuals.serverscheck.com/EST-Difference_between_core_and_skin_temperature.pdf

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/d794195340cac2cc450a4b7a374d6e03.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/c8d60d8fa1e1f0ee2b94ac33a93df90b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiGt7JXX0AE6cEf?format=jpg&name=small

[Zizu]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiGt7JXX0AE6cEf?format=jpg&name=small



It’s a concern that we are into the second wave with maybe a third wave coming in January yet our testing seems to be inept bordering incompetent ..


It seems like such an easy system to set up .. get a good system and replicate if across the whole country .
Maybe we should let the McDonalds management team take control of the testing ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[bots]

the test and trace system only works if people follow the rules and isolate .... and they havent been.

[arista]

Today 696 have Died

Today 18,213 have caught Covid-19

Patients in hospital
16,570

Patients on ventilation
1,489


56,533 Total Death for the UK.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[Vanessa]

We're going back in lockdown after the New year, aren't we? :facepalm:

[Strictly Jake]

Today 696 have Died

Today 18,213 have caught Covid-19

Patients in hospital
16,570

Patients on ventilation
1,489


56,533 Total Death for the UK.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/


Yet everyone is ok to mix in a month?!

[Vanessa]

Yet everyone is ok to mix in a month?!

I know, it's madness!

[GoldHeart]

We're going back in lockdown after the New year, aren't we? :facepalm:

I don't understand what the point is in telling people they can spend time with a few family members around Christmas. Things are going to get worse .

[arista]

1331663961352261633

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnsR4TzXYAIL90F?format=jpg&name=900x900

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnqLDCNXMAEXyNm?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnqLDCKXEAEr6IW?format=jpg&name=small

[Scarlett.]

We're going back in lockdown after the New year, aren't we? :facepalm:

I'm pretty much expecting that I wont be back working til March/April at this point

[joeysteele]

No surprise that I would stand with and agree with Andy Burnham.

He's a respected politician, no matter the reservations some hold for him.

The Cons know this.
They also know when all starts to be looked into on this pandemic, their overall handling of it.
The mess is likely really to be going to hit their fan.

So denouncing someone like Burnham,who has far more political integrity than they have, they will do with a vengeance.
Since he was shown to be more right and supported in his recent past battle, with this government.

[Zizu]

Owing to technical difficulties the COVID-19 dashboard will be updated later.

We can confirm:

On Wednesday 25 November, 18,213 positive cases were reported taking the total to 1,557,007.

696 deaths were reported taking the total to 56,533.

Highest number of deaths since the peak in May apparently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

A paper from yesterday in Scotland.


https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/1835B/production/_115636199_p-jfrontnov25.jpg

[arista]

On Peston ITV1HD
the head of Track and Trace
said what the Government is using
to the Tiers later today, is out of date.

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/A914/production/_115648234_dailymail26november.jpg

[arista]

SkyNewsHD
reports from the Gov Site.

Manchester will stay in Tier 3.
Newcastle also Tier 3
Ashford in Tier 3.

Liverpool to move to Tier 2.

The Cock
(Health Secretary)
is Live in Parliament telling us all the new Tiers 11:30AM

[AnnieK]

It was expected we would stay Tier 3 but if rates keep dropping and the Gov do review every 2 weeks, we should be in a position to move into Tier 2 then (as long as the lockdown easing doesn't push the rates up again :worry:)

https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article19347154.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_nov-25-graph.jpg

[Vanessa]

It was expected we would stay Tier 3 but if rates keep dropping and the Gov do review every 2 weeks, we should be in a position to move into Tier 2 then (as long as the lockdown easing doesn't push the rates up again :worry:)

Yes, if cases keep dropping you could go into tier 2 soon.

[Vanessa]

I think London will be in tier two.
Most areas have very low cases, but a few have high cases.

[AnnieK]

Yes, if cases keep dropping you could go into tier 2 soon.

To be honest it doesn't make a massive difference to me, I wouldn't have been going to a pub any time soon but I have friends who rely on hospitality for their income and so I hope we move into the lower tiers so they can start earning again.

[Vanessa]

To be honest it doesn't make a massive difference to me, I wouldn't have been going to a pub any time soon but I have friends who rely on hospitality for their income and so I hope we move into the lower tiers so they can start earning again.

Same, I don't go to pubs.
But it's terrible for restaurants, I agree :sad:

[arista]

Yes Most are going into Tier 2

Lucky Cornwall staying in Tier 1

[arista]

I think London will be in tier two.
Most areas have very low cases, but a few have high cases.


Yes London is Tier 2


But Greater Manchester Tier 3

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/24/23/36023538-8983951-The_onerous_tiered_system_will_be_in_place_across_ England_from_D-a-51_1606262157528.jpg

[Dogeatdog]

I’m surprised at Kent being tier 3 but London is tier 2.

[arista]

TIER THREE: VERY HIGH

North East

Tees Valley Combined Authority:

Hartlepool

Middlesbrough

Stockton-on-Tees

Redcar and Cleveland

Darlington

North East Combined Authority:

Sunderland

South Tyneside

Gateshead

Newcastle upon Tyne

North Tyneside

County Durham

Northumberland

North West

Greater Manchester

Lancashire

Blackpool

Blackburn with Darwen

Yorkshire and The Humber

The Humber

West Yorkshire

South Yorkshire

West Midlands

Birmingham and Black Country

Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent

Warwickshire, Coventry and Solihull

East Midlands

Derby and Derbyshire

Nottingham and Nottinghamshire

Leicester and Leicestershire

Lincolnshire

South East

Slough (remainder of Berkshire is tier 2: High alert)

Kent and Medway

South West

Bristol

South Gloucestershire

North Somerset

[arista]

I’m surprised at Kent & Essex being tier 3 but London is tier 2.


Yes but Kent has had this high level
building up to now

[arista]

TIER 2: HIGH

North West

Cumbria

Liverpool City Region

Warrington and Cheshire

Yorkshire

York

North Yorkshire

West Midlands

Worcestershire

Herefordshire

Shropshire and Telford & Wrekin

East Midlands

Rutland

Northamptonshire

East of England

Suffolk

Hertfordshire

Cambridgeshire, including Peterborough

Norfolk

Essex, Thurrock and Southend on Sea

Bedfordshire and Milton Keynes

London

All 32 boroughs plus the City of London

South East

East Sussex

West Sussex

Brighton and Hove

Surrey

Reading

Wokingham

Bracknell Forest

Windsor and Maidenhead

West Berkshire

Hampshire (except the Isle of Wight), Portsmouth and Southampton

Buckinghamshire

Oxfordshire

South West

South Somerset, Somerset West and Taunton, Mendip and Sedgemoor

Bath and North East Somerset

Dorset

Bournemouth

Christchurch

Poole

Gloucestershire

Wiltshire and Swindon

Devon

[arista]

TIER 1: MEDIUM

South East

Isle of Wight

South West

Cornwall

Isles of Scilly



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8989833/London-Liverpool-Tier-2.html

[Niamh.]

We're due an announcement either tonight or tomorrow on our Lockdown lifting/new restrictions. Our figures have been pretty good :fc:

yesterdays figures
Six deaths and 269 new cases

[arista]

We're due an announcement either tonight or tomorrow on our Lockdown lifting/new restrictions. Our figures have been pretty good :fc:

yesterdays figures
Six deaths and 269 new cases


Yes Ireland trying hard
to keep the China Covid-19 Virus
away.

[Nicky91]

netherlands todays numbers

4,506 new cases (435 less than yesterday)

192 new hospitalisations (42 more than yesterday) (1,781 in total)

33 new ICU patients (6 less than yesterday) (524 in total)

76 new deaths (2 more than yesterday)

[Nicky91]

https://www.thelocal.de/20201126/explained-eight-things-to-know-about-germanys-new-extended-partial-lockdown

Germany's new extended partial lockdown


and their chancellor Merkel has told the german people: Be Patient


https://www.thelocal.de/20201126/british-people-could-face-covid-19-travel-restriction-in-europe-from-january

British people could face covid-19 travel restrictions in europe from January


https://www.thelocal.de/20201126/off-the-pistes-germany-seeks-to-keep-eu-ski-resorts-shut

Germany seeks to keep EU ski resorts closed


https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1331922420823941120

EU gives 737 million to Calabria, Liguria, Emilia Romagna regions in Italy, this will strengthen their health sector, support small businesses, and boost employment

[arista]

Well done Liverpool
one zone that moved down to Tier 2.

[arista]

Meanwhile
Birmingham, Coventry, Leicester,
Derby & Nottingham all entering Tier 3.

[Nicky91]

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1331919767494647809

511 million going to Bulgaria from the EU, for their economy to deal with the effects of the pandemic

[arista]

The Prime Minister
is Live 5PM News Conference
Downing St.

He is back among the living

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/26/15/36142270-0-image-a-23_1606404212687.jpg

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/26/15/36140402-8989961-All_but_three_places_will_be_plunged_into_Tier_Thr ee_or_Two_show-a-16_1606403566528.jpg
All but three places will be plunged into Tier Three or Two (shown in red and orange)
when England's national shutdown ends on Wednesday next week.

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/1409B/production/_115657028_optimised-lockdown_map_before_and_after-1-nc.png


BBC maps before and after


Also from the BBC Business section:

New jobs in UK hospitality sector 'non-existent'

[Paul Gilley says he has never seen so few new jobs in the UK
hospitality sector - across restaurants, bars and hotels.
Recruitment is bad overall but in hospitality it is "non-existent",
says the boss of London-based recruitment
firm PJ Search & Selection.
Mr Gilley has run his business for 20 years, specialising in the
hospitality sector.
Back in March, he says that everything stopped overnight.
"Contracts were being cancelled, all permanent vacancies were drying up
and within a week we had nothing," he says.

Despite England being set to come out of the current lockdown on 2 December,
returning to a tier-based system and with
Christmas fast approaching,
Mr Gilley does not see things improving until well into 2021.]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55058132

[arista]

17,555 have tested today with Covid-19


Patients in hospital
16,341


Patients on ventilation
1,480

Today 498 have died.



57,031 Total Deaths.


https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[arista]

BBC1HD
SkyNewsHD
Times Radio DAB
LBC
Radio 5.

We go live to Downing Street at around 5PM

Sir Patrick Vallance
And Prof Chris Whitty
with the PM

[arista]

Live Now

Johnson just said in Italy there is a nightly Curfew

[arista]

17:09
Arrivals to UK from Estonia and Latvia must isolate from Saturday


17:15
UK will lift travel Denmark travel ban - Shapps MP (Transport Sec)

[arista]

Johnson says other zones
need to do the Mass Testing done in Liverpool.



The Final Question
was from a reporter who works at the Liverpool Echo.

He stated poor areas of Liverpool
did not take up the tests
The PM failed to answer that bit

[arista]

From BBC1 London News

Slough is not happy to go into Tier 3

The Council Leader
said they are a Compact area
with many living in Compact flats

[arista]

Ch4HDNews
has shown a report from Malaysia
the World's biggest rubber glove maker
has a big infection of Covid-19


Covid-19: World's top latex glove maker shuts factories
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55053846


Also
COVID-19: 'Don't hug your gran at Christmas' - Prof Chris Whitty's message

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-boris-johnson-raises-prospect-of-new-year-lockdown-if-infections-spiral-out-of-control-12143158

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/ZPvWkEyvGQBtQZK9mapsOQ/https/media.fyre.co/hu9Okv1VT36MQoG0ACSs_Times%20front%202711.JPG

[Alf]

17,555 have tested today with Covid-19


Patients in hospital
16,341


Patients on ventilation
1,480

Today 498 have died.



57,031 Total Deaths.


https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/Is that number of deaths actual deaths from Covid? Are there separate numbers for other deaths such as, heart attacks, strokes, suicides, accidents, old age or others?

What about those patient numbers? Is that just Covid patients?

The detail is more helpful to us to understand than the headline.

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/4732/production/_115662281_metrop1nov27.jpg

[arista]

Is that number of deaths actual deaths from Covid? Are there separate numbers for other deaths such as, heart attacks, strokes, suicides, accidents, old age or others?

What about those patient numbers? Is that just Covid patients?

The detail is more helpful to us to understand than the headline.


Yes they died of Covid

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/1596/production/_115662550_sun27nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/B1D6/production/_115662554_guardian27nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/17FB2/production/_115662289_thei27nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/E372/production/_115662285_express27nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/FFF6/production/_115662556_mail27nov.jpg

[arista]

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/9552/production/_115662283_telegraph27nov.jpg

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/11/26/23/36156932-0-image-m-18_1606432769123.jpg